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Author Topic: Should probably ask my priest, but would like some "outisde" posts.  (Read 1760 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 26, 2012, 08:42:54 PM »

This Sunday is going to start the Ambrosion Choirsters singing during High Mass once a month, at my parish. This Sunday it will be "J. H. Reginald Dixon’s Mass in E flat in honour of St. Paulinus of York" and next week is "August J. Huybrecht’s PRIZE MASS in hour of St. Francis of Assisi"

Is there a problem with this, since these songs are not towards saints of the Orthodox Church? Or does it really matter?
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 08:47:40 PM »

High Mass? Are you in the Western Rite?
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 08:51:05 PM »

Yes.
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 09:02:13 PM »

Yes.

Cool. I must admit that the way I browse the site I didn't see that this was in WR Discussion. *facepalm*
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 09:03:35 PM »

Yes.

Cool. I must admit that the way I browse the site I didn't see that this was in WR Discussion. *facepalm*
NP, I assumed that for you lol.
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 09:06:02 PM »

Is there a problem with this, since these songs are not towards saints of the Orthodox Church? Or does it really matter?

That depends on if you're AWRV or ROCOR WR- if Antiochian, then it all depends on what day of the week it is, whether the coin lands heads or tails, and what parish you happen to be attending. If you're ROCOR WR, then "anathema"! but only toward St Francis- St Paulinus is 7th Century, which means pre-schism, which means it's kosher- with even a little leeway going toward English saints until midway through the 12th century or so.
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 09:10:19 PM »

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 09:18:38 PM »

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

Well, as regards St Paulinus: Remember, we Orthodox approach canonization in a completely different way than certain other groups we could name  angel St Paulinus was venerated by the local Church in England pre-schism, which makes him as official a saint as the Orthodox Church gets.
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 09:21:13 PM »

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

Well, as regards St Paulinus: Remember, we Orthodox approach canonization in a completely different way than certain other groups we could name  angel St Paulinus was venerated by the local Church in England pre-schism, which makes him as official a saint as the Orthodox Church gets.
I understand that, but I wish there was an exhaustive compendium out there. We can say all pre-schismatic saints are recognize by the Orthodox Church unless there is an exception?
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 09:38:44 PM »

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

Well, as regards St Paulinus: Remember, we Orthodox approach canonization in a completely different way than certain other groups we could name  angel St Paulinus was venerated by the local Church in England pre-schism, which makes him as official a saint as the Orthodox Church gets.
I understand that, but I wish there was an exhaustive compendium out there. We can say all pre-schismatic saints are recognize by the Orthodox Church unless there is an exception?

If there were an exception, it would be St. Augustine of Hippo, and since he's not an exception ...

There's a questionable space in the 11th century, but if they lived in the first millennium, and *especially* if devotion started in the first millennium, then they are definitely considered a saint in the Orthodox Church--whether any synod of the Church was familiar enough with them to add them to their local calendar or not.
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 09:47:12 PM »

Thanks, witega. That being said, how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 10:25:07 PM »

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

It may be "in honor of St. Francis of Assisi," but is there actual text commemorating Francis? It could be just a musical setting thing.
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 10:52:34 PM »

...how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?

That it's very inappropriate.  He might've been a swell fellow, but he is not an Orthodox saint.

but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

As it should. We aren't even permitted to liturgically pray for our non-Orthodox relatives, but some guy from another church is fine to commemorate.  If this is as you believe it to be, the WR needs to sort stuff like this out.
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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 11:02:58 PM »

Thanks, witega. That being said, how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?

I avoided responding to that part of your question on the priniciple that, 'If you can't say something edifying...'

I agree with Cognomen's response though I could not put it so mildly. I could not in good conscience attend such a service.
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2012, 11:04:18 PM »

Here's a PDF document on what I'm talking about:

Ambrosian Choristers Fall 2012
http://www.staugustinedenver.org/pdfs/ChoristersFall2012.pdf
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 11:04:33 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 11:17:00 PM »

Thanks, witega. That being said, how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?

I avoided responding to that part of your question on the priniciple that, 'If you can't say something edifying...'

I agree with Cognomen's response though I could not put it so mildly. I could not in good conscience attend such a service.

Count me in with Achronos and Cognomen. Hasn't enough damage been caused by the syncretist liturgical and iconographic practices of New Skete? WRO has enough trouble being accepted as kosher without the possibility of their veneration of someone who is not an Orthodox saint.  Angry
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« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 11:21:53 PM »

I don't know about the dude, he seemed sort of strange from what I remember reading about him in Chesterton. Never liked his name either. Francis is sissy enough a name for a boy, without making problems worse with that assisi stuff  police
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2012, 09:47:24 AM »

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

It may be "in honor of St. Francis of Assisi," but is there actual text commemorating Francis? It could be just a musical setting thing.

This is very possible, and if this is the case, I don't see what the problem would be.
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 12:14:04 PM »

I'll let you guys know of there is.
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2012, 10:47:26 PM »

I highly doubt it will be the mass itself in honor of St. Francis (especially considering that it's the feast of Christ the King), it's just the official title of the mass music setting they'll be using. As in, Huybrecht composed the music in honor of the saint, and nothing more. Part of Antioch's approach to the Western Rite is preserving things like mass music settings despite who they may've been composed in honor of, but valuing them on their aesthetic qualities, availability, familiarity to the congregation, etc. I really wouldn't worry about it Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2012, 10:33:26 PM »

I highly doubt it will be the mass itself in honor of St. Francis (especially considering that it's the feast of Christ the King), it's just the official title of the mass music setting they'll be using. As in, Huybrecht composed the music in honor of the saint, and nothing more. Part of Antioch's approach to the Western Rite is preserving things like mass music settings despite who they may've been composed in honor of, but valuing them on their aesthetic qualities, availability, familiarity to the congregation, etc. I really wouldn't worry about it Smiley
Thanks bud.
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