Should probably ask my priest, but would like some "outisde" posts.

[Achronos]

This Sunday is going to start the Ambrosion Choirsters singing during High Mass once a month, at my parish. This Sunday it will be "J. H. Reginald Dixon’s Mass in E flat in honour of St. Paulinus of York" and next week is "August J. Huybrecht’s PRIZE MASS in hour of St. Francis of Assisi"

Is there a problem with this, since these songs are not towards saints of the Orthodox Church? Or does it really matter?

[OrthoNoob]

High Mass? Are you in the Western Rite?

[Achronos]

Yes.

[OrthoNoob]

Yes.

Cool. I must admit that the way I browse the site I didn't see that this was in WR Discussion. *facepalm*

[Achronos]

Yes.

Cool. I must admit that the way I browse the site I didn't see that this was in WR Discussion. *facepalm*

NP, I assumed that for you lol.

[FormerReformer]

Is there a problem with this, since these songs are not towards saints of the Orthodox Church? Or does it really matter?

That depends on if you're AWRV or ROCOR WR- if Antiochian, then it all depends on what day of the week it is, whether the coin lands heads or tails, and what parish you happen to be attending. If you're ROCOR WR, then "anathema"! but only toward St Francis- St Paulinus is 7th Century, which means pre-schism, which means it's kosher- with even a little leeway going toward English saints until midway through the 12th century or so.

[Achronos]

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

[FormerReformer]

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

Well, as regards St Paulinus: Remember, we Orthodox approach canonization in a completely different way than certain other groups we could name  St Paulinus was venerated by the local Church in England pre-schism, which makes him as official a saint as the Orthodox Church gets.

[Achronos]

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

Well, as regards St Paulinus: Remember, we Orthodox approach canonization in a completely different way than certain other groups we could name  St Paulinus was venerated by the local Church in England pre-schism, which makes him as official a saint as the Orthodox Church gets.

I understand that, but I wish there was an exhaustive compendium out there. We can say all pre-schismatic saints are recognize by the Orthodox Church unless there is an exception?

[witega]

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

Well, as regards St Paulinus: Remember, we Orthodox approach canonization in a completely different way than certain other groups we could name  St Paulinus was venerated by the local Church in England pre-schism, which makes him as official a saint as the Orthodox Church gets.

I understand that, but I wish there was an exhaustive compendium out there. We can say all pre-schismatic saints are recognize by the Orthodox Church unless there is an exception?

If there were an exception, it would be St. Augustine of Hippo, and since he's not an exception ...

There's a questionable space in the 11th century, but if they lived in the first millennium, and *especially* if devotion started in the first millennium, then they are definitely considered a saint in the Orthodox Church--whether any synod of the Church was familiar enough with them to add them to their local calendar or not.

[Achronos]

Thanks, witega. That being said, how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?

[Shanghaiski]

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

It may be "in honor of St. Francis of Assisi," but is there actual text commemorating Francis? It could be just a musical setting thing.

[Cognomen]

...how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?

That it's very inappropriate.  He might've been a swell fellow, but he is not an Orthodox saint.

but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

As it should. We aren't even permitted to liturgically pray for our non-Orthodox relatives, but some guy from another church is fine to commemorate.  If this is as you believe it to be, the WR needs to sort stuff like this out.

[witega]

Thanks, witega. That being said, how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?

I avoided responding to that part of your question on the priniciple that, 'If you can't say something edifying...'

I agree with Cognomen's response though I could not put it so mildly. I could not in good conscience attend such a service.

[Achronos]

Here's a PDF document on what I'm talking about:

Ambrosian Choristers Fall 2012
http://www.staugustinedenver.org/pdfs/ChoristersFall2012.pdf

[LBK]

Thanks, witega. That being said, how do you feel about a mass sung in honor of St. Francis of Assisi in the Orthodox Church?

I avoided responding to that part of your question on the priniciple that, 'If you can't say something edifying...'

I agree with Cognomen's response though I could not put it so mildly. I could not in good conscience attend such a service.

Count me in with Achronos and Cognomen. Hasn't enough damage been caused by the syncretist liturgical and iconographic practices of New Skete? WRO has enough trouble being accepted as kosher without the possibility of their veneration of someone who is not an Orthodox saint. 

[Asteriktos]

I don't know about the dude, he seemed sort of strange from what I remember reading about him in Chesterton. Never liked his name either. Francis is sissy enough a name for a boy, without making problems worse with that assisi stuff 

[Cavaradossi]

Yeah I'm AWRV. But I was looking everywhere for an Orthodox source that shows canonization of St. Paulinus as a saint in the Church. You're right he is 7th century and should be good, but yeah the usage of a mass in the hour of St. Francis of Assisi rubs me the wrong way.

It may be "in honor of St. Francis of Assisi," but is there actual text commemorating Francis? It could be just a musical setting thing.

This is very possible, and if this is the case, I don't see what the problem would be.

[Achronos]

I'll let you guys know of there is.

[Sleeper]

I highly doubt it will be the mass itself in honor of St. Francis (especially considering that it's the feast of Christ the King), it's just the official title of the mass music setting they'll be using. As in, Huybrecht composed the music in honor of the saint, and nothing more. Part of Antioch's approach to the Western Rite is preserving things like mass music settings despite who they may've been composed in honor of, but valuing them on their aesthetic qualities, availability, familiarity to the congregation, etc. I really wouldn't worry about it

[Achronos]

I highly doubt it will be the mass itself in honor of St. Francis (especially considering that it's the feast of Christ the King), it's just the official title of the mass music setting they'll be using. As in, Huybrecht composed the music in honor of the saint, and nothing more. Part of Antioch's approach to the Western Rite is preserving things like mass music settings despite who they may've been composed in honor of, but valuing them on their aesthetic qualities, availability, familiarity to the congregation, etc. I really wouldn't worry about it

Thanks bud.

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Liturgy > Western Rite Discussion (Moderator: arimethea) > Topic: Should probably ask my priest, but would like some "outisde" posts.