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OrthoNoob
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« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2012, 01:02:14 PM »

Then again, isn't St. Patrick credited with the at least equally dangerous three-leaf clover analogy?

It's another thing using that analogy when presenting Christianity to pagans as a form of simple introduction, and then following it up later with more in-depth catechism.

True.
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« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2012, 01:03:22 PM »

I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 01:04:26 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2012, 01:21:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

There is an event called "See You At the Pole" every year where kids gather around their flagpoles at school and pray for their school, classmates, country, etc. I've only been to one when I was a kid and I thought it was pretty lame (but a decent enough idea).

When you're a teenage EVERYTHING is lame.  To be honest, nothing surprises me more than when my students be it at school or Church actually and voluntarily buy into what we are doing with them, because on the real, when I was a teenage I was rather pious, I was reading the Bible with folks during Physics lab, but I wouldn't have touched a Church or a school spirit event with a ten foot pole (pun intended) Wink

In this regard, God is good, and I am always impressed to see the Holy Spirit moving in people.  Even in the secular world of school, when kids buy into their education and community, that is also an act of the Holy Spirit, because such youth are inherently  bettering themselves and the world, and these can only happen by God's Grace!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2012, 08:21:06 PM »

I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.
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« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2012, 08:28:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.

Are Protestant prayers what we Orthodox would want for our students? Believe it or not, it was American Catholics who were heavily in the fight to REMOVE prayer from schools Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 08:29:01 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2012, 08:37:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.

Are Protestant prayers what we Orthodox would want for our students? Believe it or not, it was American Catholics who were heavily in the fight to REMOVE prayer from schools Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you are slightly misinformed, but either way it makes no difference.  Any prayer to God is better than no prayer.
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« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2012, 08:44:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.

Are Protestant prayers what we Orthodox would want for our students? Believe it or not, it was American Catholics who were heavily in the fight to REMOVE prayer from schools Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you are slightly misinformed, but either way it makes no difference.  Any prayer to God is better than no prayer.

Actually I am not.  The Catholic Bishops (most prominently Bishop John Hughes) of New York City were some of the pioneers in leading the way towards both publicly funded education (albeit public funds for Catholic schools) and especially removing Protestant public prayers from public schools because such prayers were hostile to the Catholic Church.  Further, there are indeed Orthodox canons which explicitly forbid even PRAYING with folks outside the Church, and while I feel they are a bit harsh, regardless of my feelings they are indeed there.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 08:46:01 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2012, 08:54:07 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.

Are Protestant prayers what we Orthodox would want for our students? Believe it or not, it was American Catholics who were heavily in the fight to REMOVE prayer from schools Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you are slightly misinformed, but either way it makes no difference.  Any prayer to God is better than no prayer.

Actually I am not.  The Catholic Bishops (most prominently Bishop John Hughes) of New York City were some of the pioneers in leading the way towards both publicly funded education (albeit public funds for Catholic schools) and especially removing Protestant public prayers from public schools because such prayers were hostile to the Catholic Church.  Further, there are indeed Orthodox canons which explicitly forbid even PRAYING with folks outside the Church, and while I feel they are a bit harsh, regardless of my feelings they are indeed there.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Lets just say we disagree, a lot, and leave it at that.

I'm not purposely being short with you, I just don't know at this time how to respond without it sounding improper.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 09:19:59 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2012, 10:28:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.

Are Protestant prayers what we Orthodox would want for our students? Believe it or not, it was American Catholics who were heavily in the fight to REMOVE prayer from schools Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you are slightly misinformed, but either way it makes no difference.  Any prayer to God is better than no prayer.

Actually I am not.  The Catholic Bishops (most prominently Bishop John Hughes) of New York City were some of the pioneers in leading the way towards both publicly funded education (albeit public funds for Catholic schools) and especially removing Protestant public prayers from public schools because such prayers were hostile to the Catholic Church.  Further, there are indeed Orthodox canons which explicitly forbid even PRAYING with folks outside the Church, and while I feel they are a bit harsh, regardless of my feelings they are indeed there.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Lets just say we disagree, a lot, and leave it at that.

I'm not purposely being short with you, I just don't know at this time how to respond without it sounding improper.
Ok, I think I've got it, I hope.

The Catholic Church was a blip on the screen when compared to the secularist movements which grew out of the 1960s.  Those groups paved the way for the debacle we are experiencing in America today.  And lests be clear, I'm not talking about the Civil Rights Movement.  I know how some people like to read something which isn't there.  So, regardless of the Catholic Churches dislike of Protestant prayer, they were not the reason it was removed from schools.

To claim Orthodox prayer is the only prayer we can use has two problems.  First, it isn't what happens.  I have met dozens of Orthodox who pray Catholic and Liturgical Protestant prayers.  It doesn't matter who writes them as much as whether they are good prayers.  Some Orthodox even admit to praying the Rosary.  Second, America is t Orthodox.  To say they should not pray is just silly talk.  Even if we aren't supposed to pray with them (which would mean I can't pray with my wife or children), who are we to say they shouldn't be praying at all.  Which leads to no one praying.

This forces secular government to adhere to religious freedoms.  It gets students engaged and talking to God.  It teaches them some things are bigger than our own little bubble.  So, even if Orthodox students don't join in, there is absolutely no reason not to support them. 

Question, does God hear the prayers of sincere Protestants or not?
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« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2012, 10:50:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Ok, I think I've got it, I hope.

The Catholic Church was a blip on the screen when compared to the secularist movements which grew out of the 1960s.  Those groups paved the way for the debacle we are experiencing in America today.  And lests be clear, I'm not talking about the Civil Rights Movement.  I know how some people like to read something which isn't there.  So, regardless of the Catholic Churches dislike of Protestant prayer, they were not the reason it was removed from schools.

To claim Orthodox prayer is the only prayer we can use has two problems.  First, it isn't what happens.  I have met dozens of Orthodox who pray Catholic and Liturgical Protestant prayers.  It doesn't matter who writes them as much as whether they are good prayers.  Some Orthodox even admit to praying the Rosary.  Second, America is t Orthodox.  To say they should not pray is just silly talk.  Even if we aren't supposed to pray with them (which would mean I can't pray with my wife or children), who are we to say they shouldn't be praying at all.  Which leads to no one praying.

This forces secular government to adhere to religious freedoms.  It gets students engaged and talking to God.  It teaches them some things are bigger than our own little bubble.  So, even if Orthodox students don't join in, there is absolutely no reason not to support them.  

Question, does God hear the prayers of sincere Protestants or not?

Did you research Bishop John Hughes yet are you just selling woof tickets based on your opinions and not the facts and realities of American history? Bishop Hughes was advocating in the mid-19th century, and it was FAR from just a blip on the radar, in fact, it started the movement. Yes, Bishop Hughes was the FIRST to get pubic prayer out of public schools, not nationally, but across New York City. His legacy is also public funding of schools as well. This set the first precedent.  No, initially Bishop Hughes wasn't campaigning directly to remove prayers from school, rather to create separate schools where Catholics could pray.  However, when New York Schools removed ALL religious instruction from public schools, including anti-Catholic (which is inherentl anti-Orthodox) propaganda Bishop Hughes was personally delighted and supportive. It was a compromise of sorts which set the template for the world we live in today.

Quote
Public school days began with Protestant prayers, hymns, and Bible readings. Textbooks referred to Rome's "general corruption," and libraries carried books calling the Irish "drunken and depraved." Hughes argued that since the schools were essentially Protestant, Catholics should also receive public money. Appealing in vain to the usually pro-immigrant Democrats for help, he organized a political ticket that cost them votes at the polls. Catholic schools got no funding, but a bill was soon passed banning religion in public schools, thereby putting an end to the Public School Society.
http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Dagger-John-Archbishop-John-Hughes-Pat-McNamara-1-18-2011.html

In regards to your question about prayers, God hears ALL prayers, and you already know I believe that Jews, Muslims, and all Christians worship and pray to the One and Same God.  However, we are talking about the laws and culture of diverse, multi-religious yet secular society.  I am not claiming Orthodox prayer is the only prayer, but the Canons have indeed suggested otherwise.  As I said, it seems harsh to me too, but that is the case.  Luckily we have public invocations and invite folks of all backgrounds to our parishes so the Canon is flexible in its application, but if push came to shove, as an Orthodox Christian, yes, I would feel very uncomfortable leading my own classrooms in a public school in prayer after the flag salute and in between the morning announcements. So I agree completely with Bishop John Hughes and that Catholic movement, and I support it today as a public educator.

Our society isn't crumbling because we don't pray in school anymore, our society is crumbling because since its very foundation it was built on shaky sand and not a solid rock of solidarity and community.  We are a collective mass of divided people, what even Jesus mentioned such divided houses can't stand, even if Satan was divided against himself he couldn't stand, let alone us Wink

We do disagree about a lot of things, but if you haven't noticed, lately we've been agreeing about a lot and I have been going out of my way to try and support you here, but alas, if you want tension go ahead, I won't play along, all I can do is continue to try my best to be polite and brotherly, but you can't expect me to allow you skew facts of the American historiography.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2012, 11:17:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Ok, I think I've got it, I hope.

The Catholic Church was a blip on the screen when compared to the secularist movements which grew out of the 1960s.  Those groups paved the way for the debacle we are experiencing in America today.  And lests be clear, I'm not talking about the Civil Rights Movement.  I know how some people like to read something which isn't there.  So, regardless of the Catholic Churches dislike of Protestant prayer, they were not the reason it was removed from schools.

To claim Orthodox prayer is the only prayer we can use has two problems.  First, it isn't what happens.  I have met dozens of Orthodox who pray Catholic and Liturgical Protestant prayers.  It doesn't matter who writes them as much as whether they are good prayers.  Some Orthodox even admit to praying the Rosary.  Second, America is t Orthodox.  To say they should not pray is just silly talk.  Even if we aren't supposed to pray with them (which would mean I can't pray with my wife or children), who are we to say they shouldn't be praying at all.  Which leads to no one praying.

This forces secular government to adhere to religious freedoms.  It gets students engaged and talking to God.  It teaches them some things are bigger than our own little bubble.  So, even if Orthodox students don't join in, there is absolutely no reason not to support them.  

Question, does God hear the prayers of sincere Protestants or not?

Did you research Bishop John Hughes yet are you just selling woof tickets based on your opinions and not the facts and realities of American history? Bishop Hughes was advocating in the mid-19th century, and it was FAR from just a blip on the radar, in fact, it started the movement. Yes, Bishop Hughes was the FIRST to get pubic prayer out of public schools, not nationally, but across New York City. His legacy is also public funding of schools as well. This set the first precedent.  No, initially Bishop Hughes wasn't campaigning directly to remove prayers from school, rather to create separate schools where Catholics could pray.  However, when New York Schools removed ALL religious instruction from public schools, including anti-Catholic (which is inherentl anti-Orthodox) propaganda Bishop Hughes was personally delighted and supportive. It was a compromise of sorts which set the template for the world we live in today.

Quote
Public school days began with Protestant prayers, hymns, and Bible readings. Textbooks referred to Rome's "general corruption," and libraries carried books calling the Irish "drunken and depraved." Hughes argued that since the schools were essentially Protestant, Catholics should also receive public money. Appealing in vain to the usually pro-immigrant Democrats for help, he organized a political ticket that cost them votes at the polls. Catholic schools got no funding, but a bill was soon passed banning religion in public schools, thereby putting an end to the Public School Society.
http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Dagger-John-Archbishop-John-Hughes-Pat-McNamara-1-18-2011.html

In regards to your question about prayers, God hears ALL prayers, and you already know I believe that Jews, Muslims, and all Christians worship and pray to the One and Same God.  However, we are talking about the laws and culture of diverse, multi-religious yet secular society.  I am not claiming Orthodox prayer is the only prayer, but the Canons have indeed suggested otherwise.  As I said, it seems harsh to me too, but that is the case.  Luckily we have public invocations and invite folks of all backgrounds to our parishes so the Canon is flexible in its application, but if push came to shove, as an Orthodox Christian, yes, I would feel very uncomfortable leading my own classrooms in a public school in prayer after the flag salute and in between the morning announcements. So I agree completely with Bishop John Hughes and that Catholic movement, and I support it today as a public educator.

Our society isn't crumbling because we don't pray in school anymore, our society is crumbling because since its very foundation it was built on shaky sand and not a solid rock of solidarity and community.  We are a collective mass of divided people, what even Jesus mentioned such divided houses can't stand, even if Satan was divided against himself he couldn't stand, let alone us Wink

We do disagree about a lot of things, but if you haven't noticed, lately we've been agreeing about a lot and I have been going out of my way to try and support you here, but alas, if you want tension go ahead, I won't play along, all I can do is continue to try my best to be polite and brotherly, but you can't expect me to allow you skew facts of the American historiography.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
I don't look for conflict.  I just have an abrasive personality.  I try not to, but it really come out on the internet when there is nothing but words. 

I'll look into the history with the Bishop, but I still do not see a problem with this event.  The kids pray during their Fellowship of Christian Athletes meetings and no one seems to mind.
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« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2012, 11:21:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


I don't look for conflict.  I just have an abrasive personality.  I try not to, but it really come out on the internet when there is nothing but words. 

I'll look into the history with the Bishop, but I still do not see a problem with this event.  The kids pray during their Fellowship of Christian Athletes meetings and no one seems to mind.
I am sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of being combative Smiley

Checking into the facts is all I can ask my brother..

That is a Christian club, Christian clubs are perfectly allowed on school campuses, and I support them as a teacher.  However, there is a difference between a voluntary club or extra-curricular activity on campus and putting prays in the curriculum.  Again, as a teacher and an Orthodox, that would offend me highly, and I simply wouldn't do it as a matter of personal conviction.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2012, 01:44:03 AM »

Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily
And today, they do not.
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« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2012, 02:27:23 AM »

Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily
And today, they do not.
You went to a public school which holds daily prayers?  Wow!  I'm impressed, shocked and happy all at the same time.  Unfortunately, it doesn't happen much any longer.
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« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2012, 02:32:50 AM »

If I had compulsory daily prayers at my school I'd propably sue it.
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« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2012, 02:33:46 AM »

Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily
And today, they do not.
You went to a public school which holds daily prayers?  Wow!  I'm impressed, shocked and happy all at the same time.  Unfortunately, it doesn't happen much any longer.
I never said I went to a public school which held daily prayers.
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« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2012, 02:38:49 AM »

If I had compulsory daily prayers at my school I'd propably sue it.
I am sure you probably would. Wink
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« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2012, 02:39:39 AM »

Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily
And today, they do not.
You went to a public school which holds daily prayers?  Wow!  I'm impressed, shocked and happy all at the same time.  Unfortunately, it doesn't happen much any longer.
I never said I went to a public school which held daily prayers.
Oh.  Then I suppose the answer to your question is a saddening no.
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« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2012, 09:30:17 AM »

I cant think of another place in the world where a group of Christians would come together to debate whether or not certain Christians should or shouldnt pray for their school and country with other Christians... I just dont get the big deal.  And I havent talked to any real life Orthodox people who see what the big deal about it is either.

I really do love this site, as many of you helped so much by answering my questions when I was an inquirer, but with this thread you can tell the difference between Orthodoxy and Netodoxy.

I just disagree with the idea that I'm affirming every protestant doctrine by bowing my head and closing my eyes while a protestant prays for protection for our school and country.  What about when visit my protestant parents or in-laws and we pray before a meal? Should I not do that either?

Sorry for the rant and frustration.  I dont get like this often around here, but this thread has been sort of discouraging.
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« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2012, 10:25:27 AM »

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Sorry for the rant and frustration.  I dont get like this often around here, but this thread has been sort of discouraging
I didnt mean for it to become a Protestant bashing thread. I was invited to this and I wanted to get other Orthodox folk's perspective. Im sorry if it seemed I was fishing for a reason to bash Protestants. I was not.

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« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2012, 11:22:39 AM »

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Sorry for the rant and frustration.  I dont get like this often around here, but this thread has been sort of discouraging
I didnt mean for it to become a Protestant bashing thread. I was invited to this and I wanted to get other Orthodox folk's perspective. Im sorry if it seemed I was fishing for a reason to bash Protestants. I was not.

PP

I know you werent.  It wasnt you.  Its just the general vibe of the responses that were a little discouraging.  Its not even anyone in particular. 
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« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2012, 03:39:08 PM »

If I had compulsory daily prayers at my school I'd propably sue it.
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« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2012, 07:28:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I cant think of another place in the world where a group of Christians would come together to debate whether or not certain Christians should or shouldnt pray for their school and country with other Christians... I just dont get the big deal.  And I havent talked to any real life Orthodox people who see what the big deal about it is either.

I really do love this site, as many of you helped so much by answering my questions when I was an inquirer, but with this thread you can tell the difference between Orthodoxy and Netodoxy.

I just disagree with the idea that I'm affirming every protestant doctrine by bowing my head and closing my eyes while a protestant prays for protection for our school and country.  What about when visit my protestant parents or in-laws and we pray before a meal? Should I not do that either?

Sorry for the rant and frustration.  I dont get like this often around here, but this thread has been sort of discouraging.

Prayer in school has less to do with Orthodox vs Protestant as much as Secular society vs theocracy.  We don't live in Iran, and again, as a public educator I wouldn't lead any of my students in prayer, even at the Christian Club where it is acceptable I would still feel wary.  Church is for Church, School is for school.  WHENEVER I am at Church, I am praying for our schools, and whenever I go to work I am praying all the time, but not publicly.  What if they were Muslim prayers, or Jewish, or Brahmans? Would Protestants accept the Hail Mary or other prayers to Saints? There are a lot folks in America, we have collectively decided and agreed that for the sake of mutually getting along, we will pray in places of prayer, and learn in places to learn.

This forum very often discourages me too, but I think on this particular thread the attitude has been right on target.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2012, 07:40:17 PM »

What about when visit my protestant parents or in-laws and we pray before a meal? Should I not do that either?

I don't. But then again, my family has not prayed at meals at all in years. The only time they even remotely do it is at Thanksgiving and even then, I usually just excuse myself saying I have to go to the bathroom right before they pray and by the time I come back they are finished.
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« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2012, 11:30:14 PM »

Would Protestants accept the Hail Mary or other prayers to Saints?
stay blessed,
habte selassie

They probably wouldnt, but if they were to go on making a big deal of it, I would have the same criticism for them as well.

Yes, it has been frustrating to me.  But I also want to be the first to say that I am new to Orthodoxy and I dont know everything there is to know about every detail of its teachings.  I could be in the wrong here.  And maybe its because I still spend so much time with protestants, but theres no possible way I can excuse myself every time im around a protestant who prays.  I just bow my head and be respectful.

Heck, even my softball team prays before games.  You think all these rednecks in south metro Atlanta are Orthodox? No. Theyre baptists most likely.  They even asked me to pray before a game last week.  I just said a simple prayer and asked that God would keep everyone safe.  I couldnt just say "No, sorry. Not gonna pray." I mean, come on. 

I dunno.  Maybe I just disagree.  Or maybe I am just flat out wrong or just dont get it yet.  Its not even that I completely disagree with everything said here.  Its just that it seems like its been made too big of a deal.  I dont fault PP for asking the question, but a few simple responses would have been fine.

I dunno.  Im tired.  Just ignore me.
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« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2012, 11:34:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.

Are Protestant prayers what we Orthodox would want for our students? Believe it or not, it was American Catholics who were heavily in the fight to REMOVE prayer from schools Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Indeed. School prayer had little to do with piety, and more to do with turning new immigrants (Roman Catholic, Orthodox, etc) and Native Americans into "good American Protestants." Remember, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, Protestant missionaries worked very closely with the public educational system. The territory of Alaska was actually divided between Protestant groups for the purpose of educating/civilizing the Natives.
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« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2012, 11:36:06 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I see no problem with the event.  It's once a year at a common place to pray for the country and its leaders.  We find this in the Divine Liturgy.  And after all, whether we like the way someone prays is irrelevant when we consider the other option, which some are trying to make happen.  No prayer allowed.
But what it ends up being in practice is an awkward, guilt-tripping (hey, if you don't deny Jesus, come stand over by this pole with us) mess, filled with bizarre extemporaneous evangelical prayer, constipation faces, hand waving, etc.

Or, you could just go to the Divine Liturgy and skip all that.

Nobody is going to succeed in banning prayer at schools. And nobody is going to succeed in protecting some sort of sanctioned civil religion deistic "moment of prayer" in school, either.
Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily, so I think you could be incorrect.

Are Protestant prayers what we Orthodox would want for our students? Believe it or not, it was American Catholics who were heavily in the fight to REMOVE prayer from schools Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you are slightly misinformed, but either way it makes no difference.  Any prayer to God is better than no prayer.

If that were true, Orthodox priests would be encouraging their people to attend non-Orthodox churches. But it is not true. There are dangers to heretical prayers.
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« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2012, 12:11:27 AM »

One way I found to deal with the praying-with-Protestants thing is to lead the prayer myself. The Canons only forbid us from praying with them, but they can pray with us if they wish. If I lead the prayer then technically I am not praying with them or aligning myself with anything heretical, and in a way I am witnessing to them by Orthodox prayer.
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« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2012, 01:39:28 AM »

In case it isn't well known, during prayer at public events, no one forces you to say a specific prayer.  What does this mean?  Orthodox, Catholic, Hundu, whatever, you are free to pray what you want or not to pray at all.  Just saying.
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« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2012, 02:03:05 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Yes, it has been frustrating to me.  But I also want to be the first to say that I am new to Orthodoxy and I dont know everything there is to know about every detail of its teachings.  I could be in the wrong here.  And maybe its because I still spend so much time with protestants, but theres no possible way I can excuse myself every time im around a protestant who prays.  I just bow my head and be respectful.

Just ignore me.


Ignore a falcons man? Nonsense Wink

You are conflating different issues.  Communities of different faiths should indeed pray together. I have no beef with Protestant prayer, I with out apology assert that Muslims, Christians of all varieties, and Jews worship and pray to the same One God.  However we are talking about prayer in the setting of public schools, something different entirely.  And again, in the course of history and even contemporary reality, in this context it would be Protestants or Jews or Muslims who probably have the most problem with it, especially if it were our Orthodox/Catholic prayers.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2012, 10:45:51 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Yes, it has been frustrating to me.  But I also want to be the first to say that I am new to Orthodoxy and I dont know everything there is to know about every detail of its teachings.  I could be in the wrong here.  And maybe its because I still spend so much time with protestants, but theres no possible way I can excuse myself every time im around a protestant who prays.  I just bow my head and be respectful.

Just ignore me.


Ignore a falcons man? Nonsense Wink

You are conflating different issues.  Communities of different faiths should indeed pray together. I have no beef with Protestant prayer, I with out apology assert that Muslims, Christians of all varieties, and Jews worship and pray to the same One God.  However we are talking about prayer in the setting of public schools, something different entirely.  And again, in the course of history and even contemporary reality, in this context it would be Protestants or Jews or Muslims who probably have the most problem with it, especially if it were our Orthodox/Catholic prayers.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Youre certainly right about that.

One thing that I try to do if I lead a prayer among my protestant family, even if its a simple "bless this food and let it nourish our bodies" type of prayer (you know the kind), I try to still end with "in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit."

When did people start ending prayers with either "in your name i pray" or "in Jesus name...amen"?
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« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2012, 01:03:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Yes, it has been frustrating to me.  But I also want to be the first to say that I am new to Orthodoxy and I dont know everything there is to know about every detail of its teachings.  I could be in the wrong here.  And maybe its because I still spend so much time with protestants, but theres no possible way I can excuse myself every time im around a protestant who prays.  I just bow my head and be respectful.

Just ignore me.


Ignore a falcons man? Nonsense Wink

You are conflating different issues.  Communities of different faiths should indeed pray together. I have no beef with Protestant prayer, I with out apology assert that Muslims, Christians of all varieties, and Jews worship and pray to the same One God.  However we are talking about prayer in the setting of public schools, something different entirely.  And again, in the course of history and even contemporary reality, in this context it would be Protestants or Jews or Muslims who probably have the most problem with it, especially if it were our Orthodox/Catholic prayers.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Youre certainly right about that.

One thing that I try to do if I lead a prayer among my protestant family, even if its a simple "bless this food and let it nourish our bodies" type of prayer (you know the kind), I try to still end with "in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit."

When did people start ending prayers with either "in your name i pray" or "in Jesus name...amen"?

Actually its not really apart of the Orthodox prayers I am familiar with.  In the Ethiopian "Our Father" I generally add it out of the habit of my upbringing as a Baptist, but I think that essentially starting the prayer, "Besemay Ab, we Wold, we Menfes Kidus Ahud Amlak, amen" just about covers it Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2012, 03:22:05 PM »

Father, we just come before You and just lift up our flagpole, Father, which doth be suffering from the affliction of the dire frost of winter, and we just ask, Father, that You, Father, would just put a hedge of protection, Father, around the school, and just bless the books of our students to their learning, Father. We also just pray, Father...

Oh my. It's so true. The "Polite/Deprecatory Just" used in prayer drives me crazy. And "hedge of protection".. Tongue

I'm also disturbed by the séance-style handholding that occurs at these events (and at Thanksgiving dinner). Why do people hold hands while praying?
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« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2012, 03:36:16 PM »

What about when visit my protestant parents or in-laws and we pray before a meal? Should I not do that either?

I don't. But then again, my family has not prayed at meals at all in years. The only time they even remotely do it is at Thanksgiving and even then, I usually just excuse myself saying I have to go to the bathroom right before they pray and by the time I come back they are finished.

One could also ignore the common prayer and say a blessing on the food silently at the same time. That's what I do, as my family would be scandalized if someone was not present for the prayer.

Even if your family doesn't pray, it's not a big deal to bow your head for just a moment and say "Lord bless the food of your servants," etc.
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« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2012, 04:49:59 PM »

Even if your family doesn't pray, it's not a big deal to bow your head for just a moment and say "Lord bless the food of your servants," etc.

I do not know, that seems sort of awkward to me. I try to keep my religion as distant from my parents as possible to avoid controversy. We sort of have an unspoken you-don't-bother-me-then-I-won't-bother-you religious type deal.
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« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2012, 06:54:16 AM »

Until around the 60s, they prayed in school daily
And today, they do not.
Boy am I slow.  I JUST realized this was a statement not a question.
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« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2012, 11:16:28 AM »

Why do people hold hands while praying?
My wife and I began the practice when our first-born was about a year old and beginning to sit at the table. It served the very practical purpose of keeping his hands out of the mashed potatoes  Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2012, 11:56:05 AM »

Why do people hold hands while praying?
My wife and I began the practice when our first-born was about a year old and beginning to sit at the table. It served the very practical purpose of keeping his hands out of the mashed potatoes  Cheesy Cheesy

Do Orthodox never hold hands while praying? Ive never thought of it until you mentioned that, but now that I think about it i dont think Ive ever seen it.  I have seen it in Catholic churches.  Maybe its just a Western thing?
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« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2012, 12:13:23 PM »

Why do people hold hands while praying?
My wife and I began the practice when our first-born was about a year old and beginning to sit at the table. It served the very practical purpose of keeping his hands out of the mashed potatoes  Cheesy Cheesy

Do Orthodox never hold hands while praying? Ive never thought of it until you mentioned that, but now that I think about it i dont think Ive ever seen it.  I have seen it in Catholic churches.  Maybe its just a Western thing?

It's a Protestant thing, not a Western thing. The Romans got it from the Protestants sometime around (if I remember correctly) the 80's (though it wouldn't surprise me if it started in the 60's). It was never done in the Tridentine Rite, I don't believe it is done in Western Orthodoxy, and probably didn't start with the Protestants until the 60's or so either, when everyone started getting all touchy-feely hippie crazy.
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« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2012, 12:37:38 PM »

I hold hands with my family when we pray because we as a family are praying, and holding hands helps solidify that.

PP
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« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2012, 03:37:56 PM »

How do you make sign of the Cross that way?
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« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2012, 07:17:26 PM »

With all due respect, I find it fascinating that you--being Orthodox--pray while holding hands. Wouldn't it make it kind of hard to Cross yourself or perform any prostrations or those other 'weird' things that we do when we pray?
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« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2012, 07:36:35 PM »

With all due respect, I find it fascinating that you--being Orthodox--pray while holding hands. Wouldn't it make it kind of hard to Cross yourself or perform any prostrations or those other 'weird' things that we do when we pray?
I'm not sure who the "you" is here, JamesR. Here's my situation: the only time my wife and I hold hands to pray is at mealtime - and that's a holdover from 30 years of married life before I became Orthodox. It's a brief prayer. I can cross myself before and afterwards. My wife is not Orthodox and continues to decline to join me in other prayers.
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« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2012, 07:51:56 PM »

I think all the micro management of prayer in this thread is...it's not good. 
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« Reply #89 on: October 03, 2012, 07:54:04 PM »

I think all the micro management of prayer in this thread is...it's not good. 
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