|
walter1234
|
 |
« on: September 24, 2012, 03:38:59 AM » |
|
1.As a orthodox christian , what does the icons mean to you??
2.Why do an orthodox christian need to honor the icons??
3. Will an orthodox christian / a new orthodox christian misunderstand the icon that they honor is the Trinity God??Will icon make an orthodox christian fall??
4 Why would an icon weep?? How do this miracle bless the life of an orthodox christian??
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 03:42:47 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
soderquj
Sr. Member
 Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 227
|
|
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2012, 10:33:18 AM » |
|
1.As a orthodox christian , what does the icons mean to you??
2.Why do an orthodox christian need to honor the icons??
3. Will an orthodox christian / a new orthodox christian misunderstand the icon that they honor is the Trinity God??Will icon make an orthodox christian fall??
4 Why would an icon weep?? How do this miracle bless the life of an orthodox christian??
1. It represents the living Christ (I have an Icon of Christ the teacher) or the power of God illuminating the one (Saint) depicted. 2. We do not need to, but being Human we are visual and this helps us focus on the task at hand. We venerate icons, but they are only windows to the prototype. 3. May if not properly instructed on what they are and are not. A true Orthodox would never give to an ICON what is due to God alone, true Worship. 4. Do not know never seen one and only heard of it. Any true miracle should bless the life of any Orthodox Christian  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 10:33:41 AM by soderquj »
|
Logged
|
O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
|
|
|
|
IoanC
|
|
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 11:17:09 AM » |
|
1. An icon is a spiritual representation of God, Angels, Saints, and whatever other realities it may include (such as Uncreated Light, nature). Icons are not simply portraits or pictures. They convey a spiritual (unseen) reality. If we look closely at an icon, we will see that they are unlike any other representations in the world; they are very different. They are meant to serve as windows to Heaven, to the transcendent. That's why they are so scared and important.
2. As I said, because they are holy representations of holy people or realities. Furthermore, icons are not conceived by anybody, but they are transmitted directly by God through Saints or Angels.
3. In a way, icons are objects. We do not worship or venerate the icons themselves, but God, the Saints and the Angels who are represented in the icons. Sure, because icons carry such a holy and heavy message, they become holy objects themselves, but we must not understand that people worship or venerate the icons themselves as if they are idols. Icons can cause people confusion, if they are not done properly, or if they are misunderstood.
4. I have not seen this miracle, but have heard about it. You might have figured by now that it is not the icons that weep, but the persons represented in them that do. They weep because they are sad about things not going well for us, or perhaps because we sin too much. You might ask why don't they come in person and weep? Sometimes there are direct apparitions of Saints, Angels or even Christ. Why they decide to do it one way or another is matter of how God plans things for us.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Timon
|
|
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 11:32:48 AM » |
|
1.As a orthodox christian , what does the icons mean to you??
2.Why do an orthodox christian need to honor the icons??
3. Will an orthodox christian / a new orthodox christian misunderstand the icon that they honor is the Trinity God??Will icon make an orthodox christian fall??
4 Why would an icon weep?? How do this miracle bless the life of an orthodox christian??
1. As others have said, they are windows into heaven. They also teach the theology of the Church visually. 2. We honor the saints who came before us because they sacrificed so much (many times their lives) to preserve and maintain the Faith for us. Its like having your Church family there with you. Im sure you have pictures of your own family on display in your home somewhere. 3. I guess its possible, but that could be said for anything. We dont worship icons. 4. I havent seen a weeping icon either. As someone who struggles with doubt at times, this is something I have trouble with. I would love to see one for myself. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved. — Chrysostom BLOG |
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 11:33:28 AM » |
|
The Ark of the Covenant represent God and god's presence in old testament. Israelites like Joshua even fell to the earth on his face and pray before the Ark of the Lord . They even brought the ark of lord with them in all wars. All Israelites honor the Ark of the Lord, but not worship it.
Is Icon similiar to the Ark of the Covenant in old testament??
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 11:47:51 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 11:52:30 AM » |
|
The Ark of the Covenant represent God and god's presence in old testament. Israelites like Joshua even fell to the earth on his face and pray before the Ark of the Lord . They even brought the ark of lord with them in all wars. All Israelites honor the Ark of the Lord, but not worship it.
Is Icon similiar to the Ark of the Covenant in old testament??
Didn't John of Damascus use the ark of the covenant as an example in his three sermons on icons? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 02:21:06 PM » |
|
Can an orthodox christian pray to God without an icon in front??
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
sheenj
|
|
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 02:24:44 PM » |
|
Can an orthodox christian pray to God without an icon in front??
Of course! Think of Icons as a visual version of the Bible. You don't need the Bible to pray but it can still be used as a tool to guide your prayer. Same with Icons. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 02:26:23 PM by sheenj »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 02:35:38 PM » |
|
Can an orthodox christian pray to God without an icon in front??
Of course! Think of Icons as a visual version of the Bible. You don't need the Bible to pray but it can still be used as a tool to guide your prayer. Same with Icons. Most protestant think that orthodox christian is pray to icons!!This is totally wrong. The truth is that orthodox christians are to pray before icons,like Joshua praying before the Holy Ark. They use icons as a tools to help them to worship/pray the Trinity God.They never pray to icons , they only worship and pray toTrinity GOd. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 02:36:46 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 02:39:27 PM » |
|
Catholic christian do not use icons, but use statues. They would honor the statues of saints , Jesus, Mary, etc ,pray before status, use the status as a tool to help them to worship the Lord. Do orthodox christians accept it? Do orthodox christians think that it is appropriate??
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 02:41:07 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
sheenj
|
|
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 02:47:14 PM » |
|
Catholic christian do not use icons, but use statues. They would honor the statues of saints , Jesus, Mary, etc ,pray before status, use the status as a tool to help them to worship the Lord. Do orthodox christians accept it? Do orthodox christians think that it is appropriate??
I'm not sure if statuary is wrong per say, all I know is that it is simply not in the Orthodox Tradition. We prefer more stylized depictions of our saints. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
orthonorm
|
|
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 02:48:46 PM » |
|
Catholic christian do not use icons, but use statues. They would honor the statues of saints , Jesus, Mary, etc ,pray before status, use the status as a tool to help them to worship the Lord. Do orthodox christians accept it? Do orthodox christians think that it is appropriate??
Catholics and Protestants (long before the hip paleo-evo came along) "use" icons. (I think the term "use" is poor here.) I've been in Lutheran Churches which have been around for hundreds of years which had icons in them. Granted, structurally they are integrated differently, but nevertheless they were there and these Lutherans held to the same seven ecumenical councils the Orthodox do. Catholics of course use icons as well. In fact, in some communities it would be hard to distinguish the practice of how icons are used by Catholics or Orthodox. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
|
|
|
|
HabteSelassie
|
|
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 02:51:05 PM » |
|
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Catholic christian do not use icons, but use statues. They would honor the statues of saints , Jesus, Mary, etc ,pray before status, use the status as a tool to help them to worship the Lord. Do orthodox christians accept it? Do orthodox christians think that it is appropriate??
No, but it is the same premise as the Ark of the Covenant. By the way, the Orthodox view of honoring and revering Saint Mary as the Mother of God is also deeply imbued with the imagery, symbolism, and function of the Ark as well. stay blessed, habte selassie |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
|
|
|
|
Alveus Lacuna
|
|
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 11:05:25 PM » |
|
I think you'd kind of have to be stupid to think that an icon is God in essence, but I guess dumber things have happened.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
IoanC
|
|
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2012, 03:22:12 AM » |
|
Catholic christian do not use icons, but use statues. They would honor the statues of saints , Jesus, Mary, etc ,pray before status, use the status as a tool to help them to worship the Lord. Do orthodox christians accept it? Do orthodox christians think that it is appropriate??
Statues are generally not used in Orthodoxy. I think it has to do with the fact that icons are generally supposed to be two-dimensional. The third dimension (depth) is supposed to be the spiritual (unseen) one. A statue would have the third dimension (depth), so it would not serve as an icon; it would allude to the earthly realm, to sensuality, to voluptuousness. Just some thoughts. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 03:29:03 AM by IoanC »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2012, 04:58:34 PM » |
|
Why would orthodox christian kiss the icons of mary, jesus and saints?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2012, 05:01:29 PM » |
|
Why would orthodox christian kiss the icons of mary, jesus and saints?
"The honour paid to the image passes on to the prototype." -St. Basil the Great, De Spiritu Sanctu 18:45 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
|
|
|
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 11,913
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2012, 09:34:44 PM » |
|
Why would orthodox christian kiss the icons of mary, jesus and saints?
Why do people kiss football trophies? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2012, 02:38:31 AM » |
|
I still cannot understand the meaning and significance of kissing the icon. Can you explain in more detail?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
NicholasMyra
|
|
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2012, 02:50:12 AM » |
|
I still cannot understand the meaning and significance of kissing the icon. Can you explain in more detail?
You know how in America, we show honor by saluting, shaking hands, giving a slight bow, putting our hands over our hearts, etc? Kissing is something like that in ancient Christian lands. "Let every human being be in subjection to the higher authorities because there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God... ..And so, give to everyone as you owe: taxes to whom taxes are due; revenues to whom revenues are due; respect to whom respect is due; honor to whom honor is due!" -Romans 13 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."
-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2012, 09:00:26 AM » |
|
Are you meaning that kissing the icons is an action of honoring the icons, but not worship?
Kissing somebody usually have an implication of showing the love to him.Does kissing the icons have the meaning of loving them?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 09:02:14 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2012, 09:01:57 AM » |
|
Are you meaning that kissing the icons is an action of honoring the icons, but not worship?
Kissing somebody usually imply to show the love to him.Do kissing the icons have the meaning of loving them?
When I kiss icons I don't kiss or love the wood but the one depicted on it. The honour paid to the icon passes on to the prototype. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 09:02:15 AM by Cyrillic »
|
Logged
|
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
|
|
|
|
NicholasMyra
|
|
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2012, 09:52:26 AM » |
|
Are you meaning that kissing the icons is an action of honoring the icons, but not worship?
Kissing somebody usually have an implication of showing the love to him.Does kissing the icons have the meaning of loving them?
It's like how when you honor God's commandments, God is not the commandment itself. But by following the commandment you honor God nonetheless. Like Cyrillic said, the honor is not for the icon itself, but for the prototype. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 09:53:00 AM by NicholasMyra »
|
Logged
|
"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."
-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2012, 10:04:03 AM » |
|
Are you meaning that kissing the icons is an action of honoring the icons, but not worship?
Kissing somebody usually have an implication of showing the love to him.Does kissing the icons have the meaning of loving them?
It's like how when you honor God's commandments, God is not the commandment itself. But by following the commandment you honor God nonetheless. Like Cyrillic said, the honor is not for the icon itself, but for the prototype. I see, Good point.I did not think of it before. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 10:04:39 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 01:43:38 PM » |
|
Why do Orthodox Christian call icon as "windows to Heaven"??
What is the meaning of "window to heaven" ?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 01:44:08 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
NicholasMyra
|
|
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 02:07:30 PM » |
|
Why do Orthodox Christian call icon as "windows to Heaven"??
What is the meaning of "window to heaven" ?
Icons are designed so that you look past them to their prototype. That is, they are designed so that you do not focus on the icon itself, but rather look beyond it to Christ and his Saints. That is why icons don't make very good "fodder" for daydreams, imo. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 02:08:02 PM by NicholasMyra »
|
Logged
|
"...you are the orphan, not the protagonist."
-St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, 'This was from me'
|
|
|
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 11,913
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 02:39:56 PM » |
|
Are you meaning that kissing the icons is an action of honoring the icons, but not worship?
Kissing somebody usually have an implication of showing the love to him.Does kissing the icons have the meaning of loving them?
If I may, I think kissing an icon is a bit like saluting a flag, or visiting a national monument. We use a physical object to stand for a thing, but the object itself is only a vehicle. When someone salutes a flag, they do not so much honor the cloth and the dye, but the country it represents. When someone prays in front of an icon, they do not pray to or worship wood and paint, but they pray to God, and in doing so acknowledge that God is the one who creates all life, and who gives salvation to his people (the saints). Just my thoughts. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
|
|
|
quietmorning
|
|
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2012, 02:48:01 PM » |
|
Are you meaning that kissing the icons is an action of honoring the icons, but not worship?
Kissing somebody usually have an implication of showing the love to him.Does kissing the icons have the meaning of loving them?
If I may, I think kissing an icon is a bit like saluting a flag, or visiting a national monument. We use a physical object to stand for a thing, but the object itself is only a vehicle. When someone salutes a flag, they do not so much honor the cloth and the dye, but the country it represents. When someone prays in front of an icon, they do not pray to or worship wood and paint, but they pray to God, and in doing so acknowledge that God is the one who creates all life, and who gives salvation to his people (the saints). Just my thoughts. +1 |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,867
|
|
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2012, 10:44:18 PM » |
|
Kissing a picture of a loved one, no longer in this life, or living elseware, can be considered akin to kisssing (venerating) an icon, drawing one self closer to the depiction represented in the picture.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2012, 08:26:56 AM » |
|
Saints are all the living people.And God did many miracle work through them.So, we honor the saints.By honoring the saints or the miracle work God did through the saints,we honor our God.
Icons are made by wood and coloured pigments.They are simply the picture of the saints ,Mother of God or Jesus . They are not a,living person or even a living creatures.But why do we honor the lifeless object, e.g icons ?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 08:32:48 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2012, 08:32:49 AM » |
|
"The honour paid to the image passes on to the prototype" (St. Basil, De Spiritu Sanctu, 18:45)
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 08:33:21 AM by Cyrillic »
|
Logged
|
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2012, 08:35:45 AM » |
|
That means we use the icons to honor the saints, mother of God and Jesus?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 08:36:33 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480
Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava
|
|
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2012, 09:20:17 AM » |
|
That means we use the icons to honor the saints, mother of God and Jesus?
The best way to think of it (at least it was for me when I was converting from Protestantism) is the one that Basil mentioned above. Would you kiss a photograph of a dead relative or a loved one far away? What would doing that mean? Would you be showing love to the image, or is it rather a way of showing your love for that loved one? It was at that point in my conversation with the priest, when he could see that I had intellectually agreed with him that he dropped the bombshell of 'And now how would you feel if someone cut the eyes out of that photograph?' Of course I felt that it would be an attack on my relative, and that it would upset me greatly. That was the clincher for me. Forget about trying to understand for a moment, just feel. The way we venerate icons is exactly like that. When I kiss an icon or prostrate before it I am showing love and honour to the one depicted in it. I don't think that because I can rationalise it. I know it because i can feel that it is so. James |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
|
|
|
michigander
Jr. Member
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 34
|
|
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2012, 12:21:07 PM » |
|
I think you'd kind of have to be stupid to think that an icon is God in essence, but I guess dumber things have happened.
This is actually exactly what the Iconoclasts thought, which is why they thought that the only true 'icon' of Christ was the Eucharist. Of course, it's very possible that the Iconoclasts were simply stupid. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2012, 12:18:25 PM » |
|
Since Jesus became flesh 2000 years before, Orhtodox Church allow to depict Jesus in the icon.
Would Orthodox Church depict Father and holy spirit in the icon?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 12:18:41 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
michigander
Jr. Member
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 34
|
|
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2012, 12:29:05 PM » |
|
There is only one icon in which it's allowable to depict the Father, and that is the "Trinity"/"Hospitality of Abraham" icon. The Holy Spirit is depicted in that icon as well, and as a dove in the icon of Christ's Baptism, and as tongues of fire in the Pentecost icon, each in accordance with the Biblical text. The Father should never be depicted as an old man with a big beard, and the Holy Spirit should not be depicted as a dove outside of the context of the icon of Christ's Baptism. We depict things in icons in accordance with reality. Since the Holy Spirit never actually was a dove, nor tongues of fire, but only took on these appearances, we do not depict Him in these forms except when depicting the events in which he took them on. And since the Father is not a bearded old man, we do not depict Him as such. By contrast, Christ actually took on flesh, and retains it to this day. So depicting Christ as an embodied man is depicting Christ as He is.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 12:30:40 PM by michigander »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2013, 12:21:59 PM » |
|
I am interested in the appearence of Jesus, mother of God and all the saints depicted in Icons.Are their appearence depicted in icons simply from the imagination of men?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 12:22:12 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2013, 01:19:04 PM » |
|
I am interested in the appearence of Jesus, mother of God and all the saints depicted in Icons.Are their appearence depicted in icons simply from the imagination of men?
No, from symbolism and tradition. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo
"J'ai pour les institutions démocratiques un goût de tête, mais je suis aristocrate par instinct"
-A. de Tocqueville
'Don't bother arguing with Cyrillic, he is Dutch or something queer like that.'
-Byron
|
|
|
|
