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Author Topic: Should Fr. Seraphim Rose be glorified?  (Read 7523 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« Reply #225 on: September 16, 2012, 11:40:32 PM »

The Ecumenical Pariarchate is not dead. Its demise has been predicted since 1453, or even before. But that never happened. On the contrary, I believe it has the Future. An Orthodoxy that cares about people and the environment, rather than headscarves and watches.
yeah, neopaganism is the way to go.
Ummm, what?

I fail to see how being a careful steward of God's creation is heterodox or contrary to tradition. Yes, we are given dominion over the entirety of God's creation,but we surely are not charged to squander it's resources and waste its beauty. This argument is always tainted with America's internal political divisions as if being a protector of the natural world and being in favor of capitalism and growth are somehow mutually exclusive goals. Bah. (Sorry for the digression into politics...I try to avoid this, but some won't let it go when the subject of the EP comes up.)
That, however, wasn't the spirit in which it was given, as demonstrated by the reference to headscarves and watches.  Some won't let it go when the subject of the PoM comes up-and if His Beatitude doesn't come up, they interject him.

While I am loyal to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for a variety of reasons, most of which probably are a result of the actions of the Phanar in taking under its omophor the Greek Catholics led by +Orestes (Chornock) in the late 1930's, I have never been disrespectful of the PM online or in person - to the best of my recollection.

My frustration here is the same as it is in politics - a field from which I 'fled' in disgust some years ago - religion - whether it is Orthodoxy or whatever - just seems to be a 'zero sum' game to many -  if A says the sky is blue, than to B, the sky must be black - even if it is a shade of gray. Reality matters little in the face of strongly held opinion. Facts are irrelevant to the outcome of an argument.

I have plenty of opinions about various practices across the board in our Faith - some are strongly held and others not so much, some are probably 'snarky', hopefully most are not so. Most of them add little to the discussion or the issues at hand. For the most part, this board is not as stridently opinionated as are some others - some of which invite frenzied comments and others which block comment. When this board  wanders into the netherworld of 'blather', I guess I just tend to overcompensate and hope that we can steer things back to a more reasoned and informative course, rather than just go endlessly back and forth.

Unlike Macbeth, I suppose that I think there is more to life than the idiot's words who, strutting upon the stage, tells a story full of fury which in the end signifies nothing. All too often our discussions end that way and surely leave the outsider with a skewed and erroneous conclusion as to what Orthodoxy is truly all about.

Sound and fury. How could you forget that?
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« Reply #226 on: September 19, 2012, 09:51:27 PM »



Also, the idea that general sanctity is so low that real sainthood and real clairvoyance are gone is perhaps too terrible for some to contemplate. We fantasize about what it was like in pre-revolutionary Russia, or on Mount Athos back when it really was a bastion of Orthodoxy, and we simply can't accept that those days are gone, since if that were true, then perhaps the last days really are upon us. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case; maybe there will be a real revival and return to higher spiritual standards.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that Fr Seraphim's life is perhaps the best that can be done in our age, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that this is all there is to it.

Actually to say real sainthood is gone is a misconception.  There was time when the monasteries of Mount Athos and throughout Greece were dying out, but that has changed in the past decades.  There are quite a few elders that seem to surpass even the saints of the past centuries in the 'gifts' God has bestowed on them.  There is a major push lately for the Elder Paissios to be glorified because of the many miracles that have come about through his intercession.  I'm reading now an interesting book by Dionysius Farasiotis that has  been translated into English titled:  The Gurus, the Young Man, and Elder Paisios.

Equal to him in magtitude was his spritual father the Elder Porphyrios.  He was able to see into the earth when looking for water, and knew exactly how far they had to dig. He was also able to see through mountains, and called these charisms; the gift of clear sight.  These saints as well as lesser ones  could read people's souls and their thoughts as well.  I know the Elder Aimilianos was able to bi-locate, and could be in two places at the same time.  Other than these great saints, there have been numerous lesser saints, which I'm sure exist in  Serbia, Russia, Romania and Bulgaria as well.  

It seems the Orthodox here are in some kind of a rush to have an American born saint, but sorry, they'll just have to wait a little longer.  There are bound to be quite a few in the making in the monasteries of the Elder Ephraim. Wink



 
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« Reply #227 on: September 20, 2012, 07:09:12 AM »

There are quite a few elders that seem to surpass even the saints of the past centuries in the 'gifts' God has bestowed on them.

Laser beams? Adamantium claws?

Quote
It seems the Orthodox here are in some kind of a rush to have an American born saint, but sorry, they'll just have to wait a little longer. 

There are 3 already: St. James Netsvetov, St. Peter the Aleut and St. Barnabas Nastić (and the 3rd one soon: St. Olga Michael).
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« Reply #228 on: September 20, 2012, 07:53:51 AM »

Actually to say real sainthood is gone is a misconception.  There was time when the monasteries of Mount Athos and throughout Greece were dying out, but that has changed in the past decades.

I agree. Even from my brief stays on the Holy Mountain, I can confirm that there are many such men there, even among the simple monks who receive no special attention. I even met laity there (who for various reasons had to remain in the world, but who came to the monasteries at every possible opportunity) who I'd describe as such.
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« Reply #229 on: September 20, 2012, 10:11:39 AM »

Laser beams? Adamantium claws?

Post of the day! laugh
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« Reply #230 on: September 20, 2012, 10:16:47 AM »

Actually to say real sainthood is gone is a misconception.

To say only monks with some X-men superpowers can become Saints is a misconception.
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« Reply #231 on: September 20, 2012, 10:19:14 AM »

NEVER MIND
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 10:19:34 AM by celticfan1888 » Logged

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« Reply #232 on: September 20, 2012, 03:18:37 PM »

There are quite a few elders that seem to surpass even the saints of the past centuries in the 'gifts' God has bestowed on them.

Laser beams? Adamantium claws?

Quote
It seems the Orthodox here are in some kind of a rush to have an American born saint, but sorry, they'll just have to wait a little longer.  

There are 3 already: St. James Netsvetov, St. Peter the Aleut and St. Barnabas Nastić (and the 3rd one soon: St. Olga Michael).

American born,  no.  Born in the Russian Empire's territory of Alaska--North American born?  Ok.
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« Reply #233 on: September 20, 2012, 03:27:11 PM »

There are quite a few elders that seem to surpass even the saints of the past centuries in the 'gifts' God has bestowed on them.

Laser beams? Adamantium claws?

Quote
It seems the Orthodox here are in some kind of a rush to have an American born saint, but sorry, they'll just have to wait a little longer.  

There are 3 already: St. James Netsvetov, St. Peter the Aleut and St. Barnabas Nastić (and the 3rd one soon: St. Olga Michael).

American born,  no.  Born in the Russian Empire's territory of Alaska--North American born?  Ok.

Like the piece of dirt you dropped out on has anything to do with it.
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« Reply #234 on: September 20, 2012, 04:02:29 PM »

American born,  no.  Born in the Russian Empire's territory of Alaska--North American born?  Ok.

St. Barnabas was born in the U, S and A.

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Vojislav Nastić was born in Gary, Indiana, on January 31, 1914 into a family of Serbian emigrants.
Source: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Varnava_%28Nastic%29
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« Reply #235 on: September 20, 2012, 04:03:00 PM »

American born,  no.  Born in the Russian Empire's territory of Alaska--North American born?  Ok.

So most adult Ukrainians are...Soviets? laugh
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« Reply #236 on: September 20, 2012, 11:24:56 PM »

American born,  no.  Born in the Russian Empire's territory of Alaska--North American born?  Ok.

So most adult Ukrainians are...Soviets? laugh

Just to be accurate about posted information.
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« Reply #237 on: September 21, 2012, 05:55:15 AM »

"America" is a common name for two continents. "The USA" stands for country.
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« Reply #238 on: September 21, 2012, 06:24:16 AM »

"America" is a common name for two continents. "The USA" stands for country.

I tried to convince myself of that for some time but then I realized that it's just LARPing. Just about everyone is using "America" as a synonym for USA.
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« Reply #239 on: September 21, 2012, 04:09:25 PM »

"America" is a common name for two continents. "The USA" stands for country.

Then why are they called (and call themselves) 'Americans'? Wink
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« Reply #240 on: September 21, 2012, 07:20:17 PM »

American born,  no.  Born in the Russian Empire's territory of Alaska--North American born?  Ok.

So most adult Ukrainians are...Soviets? laugh

I knew it!
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« Reply #241 on: September 24, 2012, 04:13:26 AM »

i just returned from 2 months at Platina, where I was privileged to pray at Fr. Seraphim's grave every day, speak with Fr. Damascene at length about him, read some of his unpublished works, and also meet and speak with several others who knew him very well. I was there when the Russian bishop of Tobinsk came with a group of pilgrims to serve Liturgy at Fr. Seraphim's monastery and to venerate his grave, and I was there when a Serbian abbot (who has named a kellia of one of his monasteries after Fr. Seraphim), a Georgian abbot, and a Bulgarian bishop came to pay their respects to him on the day of his repose. It was an amazing and grace-filled summer. I am even more in awe of the life and works of this righteous struggle than I was before - having lived in the same monastery as him (although the life there was far more ascetic in his time) and learned many new things about him. he is a bright and shining example for us, if we have eyes to see it. its one thing to feel no particular connection to him, but it is quite sad when us Americans, for whom he sacrificed himself so much, disparage him and his holy memory. i think i can pretty safely say that no one on this forum has given even 1/100th of what Fr. Seraphim gave of himself, and yet we reject him, and so many doing so on the basis of ignorance of his life and teachings, and ignorance of what other holy Saints and elders have taught. Lord have mercy on us all!


God bless you,

I converted to the Orthodox Church in California through Death to the World and Fr. Seraphim's writings. I was also blessed to visit the monastery this summer before I moved to Phoenix (I'm hoping to visit the other man in your avatar, though I have yet to formulate an opinion on the Elder who is even *more* controversial). While I was there, I met an American convert and a man all the way from Russia who were helping to finish the winter chapel. Both were greatly influenced by Fr. Seraphim despite coming from totally different backgrounds. They both spoke of miracles that had happened only recently through the intercessions of Fr. Seraphim. I personally, while I was first passing his grave, I was struck by a very strong floral smell on my way to the book store with Brother Donald. I assumed this was incense and thought nothing of it, and only noticed that the smell was gone when I walked past it again a few minutes later. No one else was around, and the smell was very strong and only hit me as I ascended the steps. It took me nearly an hour to process what had happened, I hadn't thought anything of it, nor expected it. I think that's the way most miraculous phenomena is. There is no place like Platina, it's so peaceful, and it left a marked impression on my soul. Fr. Damascene personally set aside a good hour and a half to personally talk to me, and went out of his way to e-mail me after a tragedy that occurred in my home parish that occurred after I moved away. Platina and Blessed Fr. Seraphim are treasures of American Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #242 on: September 24, 2012, 07:29:14 AM »

Thanks to God that Sainthood is discerned in the end through the consensus of the Church in a conciliar manner guided by the teachings of the Fathers and Holy Tradition and through online debate. Do others find the direction of this entire thread somewhat at odds with the whole concept of sainthood in the first place?

And for those who are not residents or citizens of the United States of America - For better or worse, we who do live here interchange the terms 'America' and 'USA' hence two popular patriotic ballads - 'God Bless America' and 'God Bless the USA'. Our school children 'pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America' and the school chorus still may sing 'America the Beautiful'. Our public broadcasting network has an historical/cultural series entitled ' The American Experience' while our Olympians wear USA on their uniforms.  I hope that the Almighty isn't hung up on terminology as some here seem to be. Oh yeah, one more thing, the first 'modern' sociological examination of the United States of America was written in 1831 by a representative of the French government, Alexis de Tocqueville and he titled his now famous book: 'De la démocratie en Amérique' or in our vernacular - 'Democracy in America.'
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« Reply #243 on: September 24, 2012, 07:33:49 AM »

Quote
Do others find the direction of this entire thread somewhat at odds with the whole concept of sainthood in the first place?
I have no issue with the way the thread is developing. It is an opinion thing to me.

I personally dont think Fr. Seraphim should be considered a saint. However, if he is I will praise God and kiss his icon.

My opinion is simply that. An opinion. I dont think Im smarter or wiser than the Church, so if he is glorified, its because the Church decided it; and that is good enough for me.

PP
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« Reply #244 on: September 24, 2012, 07:38:03 AM »

Quote
Do others find the direction of this entire thread somewhat at odds with the whole concept of sainthood in the first place?
I have no issue with the way the thread is developing. It is an opinion thing to me.

I personally dont think Fr. Seraphim should be considered a saint. However, if he is I will praise God and kiss his icon.

My opinion is simply that. An opinion. I dont think Im smarter or wiser than the Church, so if he is glorified, its because the Church decided it; and that is good enough for me.

PP

Let me clarify my objections to the thread - I have no problem with opinions - just the tone which seems to indicate that some seem to have an insatiable desire to take things in a direction lacking in humility and civility.
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« Reply #245 on: September 24, 2012, 07:38:43 AM »

Quote
just the tone which seems to indicate that some seem to have an insatiable desire to take things in a direction lacking in humility and civility
This I can agree with, yeah.

PP
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« Reply #246 on: September 24, 2012, 08:14:28 AM »

Quote
Do others find the direction of this entire thread somewhat at odds with the whole concept of sainthood in the first place?
I have no issue with the way the thread is developing. It is an opinion thing to me.

I personally dont think Fr. Seraphim should be considered a saint. However, if he is I will praise God and kiss his icon.

My opinion is simply that. An opinion. I dont think Im smarter or wiser than the Church, so if he is glorified, its because the Church decided it; and that is good enough for me.

PP

this is a wise position
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