Author Topic: Cross and Crucifix  (Read 2570 times)

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Offline Kerdy

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Cross and Crucifix
« on: September 23, 2012, 06:45:46 AM »
Today I found a Catholic crucifix and saint medallion I wore in Iraq.  It was all they had available and I didn't see any harm in wearing it, even as a Baptist.  My question is, as an Orthodox, would it be frowned upon if I wore it again, at least until I get an Orthodox cross?  I know it sounds silly, but I just want to get a few opinions first.  Thanks!

Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 12:15:51 PM »
Just wear it, don't get rid of it, there's no reason to. The popular "Orthodox" cross with three bars is mainly Slavic. If you went to Greece, Cyprus or anywhere else that wasn't Slavic and asked them to draw a cross they'd draw the same Latin cross you already know. No reason to get rid of something meaningful to you.


(I'm not Orthodox, just giving you practical advice if I can... There are Orthodox who will want you to throw away everything without any good reason because its "Catholic" when its also actually "Orthodox" and they don't know any better)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 12:17:24 PM by Jason.Wike »

Offline Nephi

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 12:16:27 PM »
I don't see a problem with wearing it. Just curious, but who's the saint medallion of?

Offline William

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 12:57:56 PM »
Give it to your priest to be blessed. If there's something grievously wrong with it he'd (hopefully) tell you.

The cross I wear is a Slavic 8-point Crucifix with Corpus, and my priest really liked it, so I'd think crucifixes are fine in Orthodoxy.
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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 04:37:00 PM »
lots of copts have crucifixes.
mine is a simple cross.
it's the cross in yr heart that matters.
 :)

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 04:58:19 PM »
Thank you for the replies.  I didn't think it would be an issue, but I wanted to be sure in the event I was confronted about it.  Thanks again!   ;D

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 05:01:29 PM »
I don't see a problem with wearing it. Just curious, but who's the saint medallion of?
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 06:10:08 PM »
A cross is a cross.  As long as it has meaning to you, and invokes images of the story behind it, it's as "Orthodox" as it really needs to be! :)

Offline Melodist

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 07:06:55 PM »
A cross is a cross. Style is cultural. Orthodoxy can be expressed within but also transcends any particular culture.

Wear it. The medallion too.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2012, 09:55:23 PM »
Give it to your priest to be blessed.

Crosses need not be blessed. A cross is a cross, it's already blessed.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 11:32:20 PM »
A cross is a cross, there is no such thing as an 'Orthodox' cross or a 'Greek' Cross, even though many Slavic Orthodox will mistakenly make this claim. I kind of think that St. Paul would sigh on this point!

Offline William

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 11:34:05 PM »
Give it to your priest to be blessed.

Crosses need not be blessed. A cross is a cross, it's already blessed.

Well imbuing it with a magical enchantment wasn't really the point of the suggestion, as the rest of my post shows.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 11:52:05 PM »
I've been wearing it all day.  Every time I feel it move or every time I'm about to say something I shouldn't, I'm reminded it's there.  Helps a lot!

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 12:55:14 AM »
I don't think it's the Eastern v Western cross that's the problem. 

We don't typically wear crucifixes.  Therefore, I think it's better to wear a cross rather than a crucifix.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 01:06:45 AM »
We don't typically wear crucifixes.

Are you sure? I thought most Orthodox wore crucifixes.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 01:06:58 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 03:49:04 AM »
We don't typically wear crucifixes.

Are you sure? I thought most Orthodox wore crucifixes.

Is this a trick question?  Most I know (baptismal crosses and such), and most vendors for these things have the cross, sans statuette of Christ.
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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 06:05:29 AM »
We don't typically wear crucifixes.

Are you sure? I thought most Orthodox wore crucifixes.

Is this a trick question?  Most I know (baptismal crosses and such), and most vendors for these things have the cross, sans statuette of Christ.

I agree. It's definitely unusual for Orthodox to wear crosses with corpus in my experience. However I find that many people use the word crucifix to mean any cross for wearing around the neck, and are often unaware that that's not strictly accurate, so I wonder if NicholasMyra was using the word in that sense.

James
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 01:38:43 PM »
We don't typically wear crucifixes.

Are you sure? I thought most Orthodox wore crucifixes.

Is this a trick question?  Most I know (baptismal crosses and such), and most vendors for these things have the cross, sans statuette of Christ.

I agree. It's definitely unusual for Orthodox to wear crosses with corpus in my experience. However I find that many people use the word crucifix to mean any cross for wearing around the neck, and are often unaware that that's not strictly accurate, so I wonder if NicholasMyra was using the word in that sense.

James
Well, in Romania even the wearing of the so-called "baptismal cross" used to be quite rare or even non-existent . I think people were too poor to afford one.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2012, 07:21:15 PM »
There is a difference bewteen Cross and Crucifix, the Protestants have a big time problem with the Crucifix.

I'm traditional Latin Roman Catholic but I almost always wear a Celtic Cross.

It's a personal preference even though I'm not Irish.

A Crucifix ( with the corpus) is usually a distinctly Catholic emblem.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 07:55:58 PM »
There is a difference bewteen Cross and Crucifix, the Protestants have a big time problem with the Crucifix.

I'm traditional Latin Roman Catholic but I almost always wear a Celtic Cross.

It's a personal preference even though I'm not Irish.

A Crucifix ( with the corpus) is usually a distinctly Catholic emblem.
The one I have is a Catholic crucifix.  Protestants complain, and it's nitpicking to fight the Catholic Church, Christ is no longer dead and not on the cross. 

Offline Melodist

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2012, 08:38:25 PM »
The one I have is a Catholic crucifix.  Protestants complain, and it's nitpicking to fight the Catholic Church, Christ is no longer dead and not on the cross. 

It's not the cross we celebrate being empty (except maybe during the unnailing on holy friday), but the tomb. I've never understood the crucifix to be opposed to the resurrection. I've seen hand crosses with icons of the resurrection (2d version of the same thing being argued against) used by Orthodox priests for blessing and veneration.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline stashko

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2012, 10:04:52 PM »
Orthodox Crucifix the feet of Christ are side by side two nails,on the Catholic ones, there over one another and one nail...Catholics got it wrong, Orthodoxy is the right way ....
Stick with the Orthodox Crucifix and Crosses, you can't go wrong.........

Catholic's confess a different Jesus from the Orthodox one ,their not the same , including their Mary ,And our Scriptual Blessed Theotokos....... :police:
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 10:15:44 PM by stashko »
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Offline biro

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2012, 10:13:07 PM »
Quote from: stashko
Catholic's confess a different Jesus from the Orthodox one ,their not the same , including their Mary ,And our Scriptual Blessed Theotokos....... :police:

Not true.
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Offline sheenj

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2012, 10:15:36 PM »
Orthodox Crucifix the feet on Christ are side by side two nails,on the Catholic ones, there over one another and one nail...Catholics got it wrong, Orthodoxy is the right way ....
Stick with the Orthodox Crucifix and Crosses, you can't go wrong.........

Catholic's confess a different Jesus from the Orthodox one ,their not the same , including their Mary ,And our Scriptual Blessed Theotokos....... :police:
Hmm, I didn't know the Vatican had changed their Creed again, what does it say now?

Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2012, 05:02:29 AM »
We don't typically wear crucifixes.

Are you sure? I thought most Orthodox wore crucifixes.

Is this a trick question?  Most I know (baptismal crosses and such), and most vendors for these things have the cross, sans statuette of Christ.

I agree. It's definitely unusual for Orthodox to wear crosses with corpus in my experience. However I find that many people use the word crucifix to mean any cross for wearing around the neck, and are often unaware that that's not strictly accurate, so I wonder if NicholasMyra was using the word in that sense.

James
Well, in Romania even the wearing of the so-called "baptismal cross" used to be quite rare or even non-existent . I think people were too poor to afford one.

You may be right, but in the decade I've been Orthodox it's certainly been the norm (indeed strongly encouraged by Romanian priests) for us to always wear a cross. If you can't afford a gold one there's nothing stopping it being made of a cheaper material. Our church, a Romanian parish in the UK, sells wooden ones, brass ones and even ones that are made simply from woven/knotted yarn.

James
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Offline mike

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2012, 05:11:49 AM »
In this part of the world crucifixes are mostly used as priests' blessing crosses or in the tombstones.

Offline Nicene

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2012, 05:14:45 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with it. Use it to the glory of God.
Thank you.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2012, 06:23:54 PM »
There is a difference between Cross and Crucifix, the Protestants have a big time problem with the Crucifix.

I'm traditional Latin Roman Catholic but I almost always wear a Celtic Cross.

It's a personal preference even though I'm not Irish.

A Crucifix ( with the corpus) is usually a distinctly Catholic emblem.
The one I have is a Catholic crucifix.  Protestants complain, and it's nitpicking to fight the Catholic Church, Christ is no longer dead and not on the cross. 
Yes. this is always what I hear from the Prots, especially the Evangelical variety. It's always that we Papists believe that Christ is still on the cross and the Resurrection is irrelevant.........wrong.

The Crucifix is the most powerful symbol in Christianity, it is the very image reminding us of what Almighty God himself sacrificed for us in order for his creation to obtain eternal salvation, no other religion, ever in history from what I know can declare this, that their God gave his very life for them, the Crucifix is not to be taken lightly or mocking God as he's still hanging on the cross, quite the contrary actually, it's a visual to never let us forget what he did.

The Prots really need to get straight on this and get it right and stop with the "Christ is no longer dead on the Cross babble".
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 06:25:18 PM »
Orthodox Crucifix the feet of Christ are side by side two nails,on the Catholic ones, there over one another and one nail...Catholics got it wrong, Orthodoxy is the right way ....
Stick with the Orthodox Crucifix and Crosses, you can't go wrong.........

Catholic's confess a different Jesus from the Orthodox one ,their not the same , including their Mary ,And our Scriptual Blessed Theotokos....... :police:
What on earth are you talking about?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 08:20:07 PM »
While I agree with most people here that the crucifix is fine to wear, I think the distinction between Orthodox portrayals of the Crucifixion and the Catholic crucifix has to do with the second commandment forbidding graven (carved) images. In Orthodoxy, the image of Christ on the Cross is always flat, painted (written) in proper iconography. But the Catholic crucifix contains a three dimensional figure of Our Lord which is viewed by Orthodoxy as violating the proscription against graven images. I could be mistaken, but that's my understanding.

But like I said, I agree with most others here. God knows the heart, and I see nothing wrong with wearing a crucifix out of devotion to Christ and thanksgiving for His passion. But then again, I am not a Priest. Just offering my two cents.


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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2012, 12:45:20 AM »
Hmm, The crosses that are worn by priests i.e. the pectoral cross depicts the corpus of Jesus.  It matters not whether the cross on wears has the corpus of Christ or is only a cross.  The early Christians depicted crosses mostly without the corpus but later on included it.  Both versions are OK with me.

Offline mike

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2012, 10:11:29 AM »
While I agree with most people here that the crucifix is fine to wear, I think the distinction between Orthodox portrayals of the Crucifixion and the Catholic crucifix has to do with the second commandment forbidding graven (carved) images.

Can of worms opened.

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2012, 10:34:12 AM »
Didn't mean to open a can of worms. On a positive and unifying note, today in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church we celebrate "Meskel," the finding of the true Cross!  :)


The history of the finding of the Cross of Our Lord by Empress Helena:
http://stmichaeleoc.org/Synaxarium/Meskerem_17.htm
 
"Meskel Square" by Morgan Heritage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tSyo8Cu-lHs


Selam

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Offline mabsoota

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2012, 05:42:58 PM »
we celebrate for 3 days, starting tomorrow
 :)
happy feast of the cross everybody!

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2012, 06:01:11 PM »
A cross is a cross, there is no such thing as an 'Orthodox' cross or a 'Greek' Cross,

I have an Orthodox cross tattooed on me... so...  8)
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2012, 06:49:31 PM »
A cross is a cross, there is no such thing as an 'Orthodox' cross or a 'Greek' Cross,

I have an Orthodox cross tattooed on me... so...  8)

Well, I have a... regular cross?... tattooed on me. So now what? ;)
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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2012, 07:50:38 PM »
I believe the only correct solution to this problem is more tattoos...  ;D
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2012, 07:56:51 PM »
While I agree with most people here that the crucifix is fine to wear, I think the distinction between Orthodox portrayals of the Crucifixion and the Catholic crucifix has to do with the second commandment forbidding graven (carved) images. In Orthodoxy, the image of Christ on the Cross is always flat, painted (written) in proper iconography. But the Catholic crucifix contains a three dimensional figure of Our Lord which is viewed by Orthodoxy as violating the proscription against graven images. I could be mistaken, but that's my understanding.

The Crucifix is not always flat.  Bas relief is widely used in both hand and neck EO/BC crosses/crucifixes.
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Cross and Crucifix
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2012, 12:30:50 AM »
While I agree with most people here that the crucifix is fine to wear, I think the distinction between Orthodox portrayals of the Crucifixion and the Catholic crucifix has to do with the second commandment forbidding graven (carved) images. In Orthodoxy, the image of Christ on the Cross is always flat, painted (written) in proper iconography. But the Catholic crucifix contains a three dimensional figure of Our Lord which is viewed by Orthodoxy as violating the proscription against graven images. I could be mistaken, but that's my understanding.

But like I said, I agree with most others here. God knows the heart, and I see nothing wrong with wearing a crucifix out of devotion to Christ and thanksgiving for His passion. But then again, I am not a Priest. Just offering my two cents.


Selam
My priest (ROCOR) has said that there is nothing inherently wrong with statues, simply that icons are better, and deeper theologically, and that is why we use icons, and statues are improper to use in a church.

But, either way, your last paragraph is the important part, and true.