Author Topic: the roles of mary in orthodox church??  (Read 6569 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2012, 07:09:08 PM »
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Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all?

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God? Theosis is available to us all, but the theosis achieved by the Mother of God is of quite a different order of magnitude.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2012, 08:52:00 PM »
How can we know God has appointed Virgin Mary as the Queen in Heaven?
She's the mother of the current King of Israel.

That makes her the queen.

It is not recorded in bible.

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.


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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2012, 08:54:39 PM »
How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God?
"A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, 'blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!' But he said, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

That is the Gospel reading on one of the Theotokos's feasts, if I'm not mistaken, for a reason.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 08:54:50 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Deborah

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2012, 10:00:41 PM »
I've heard that Psalm 45:9-11 (Psalm 44:10-18 in the Orthodox Study Bible) is a reference to the Theotokos in her role as "Queen of Heaven".  Someone else could probably clarify and enlarge on that?
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2012, 10:05:31 PM »
How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God?
"A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, 'blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!' But he said, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

That is the Gospel reading on one of the Theotokos's feasts, if I'm not mistaken, for a reason.

It is actually part of the Gospel reading for all of the feasts of the Mother of God, including feasts dedicated to specific icons of her.  :)
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Offline Delphine

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2012, 10:36:05 PM »
Quote
Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all?

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God? Theosis is available to us all, but the theosis achieved by the Mother of God is of quite a different order of magnitude.

Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2012, 10:50:42 PM »
Quote
Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all?

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God? Theosis is available to us all, but the theosis achieved by the Mother of God is of quite a different order of magnitude.

Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?

No. It's not traditional Orthodox imagery. And it's rather presumptuous, from an Orthodox viewpoint, since there is no authoritative revelation of the event happening. We have no eyewitness testimony.
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Offline LBK

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »
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Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

The first two sentences sum things up very well.  :)

Quote
Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?

Such imagery was absent from Orthodox iconography for many centuries, and only began to creep into it from about the 17th C onwards, with the encroachment of Venetian and other western influences on Orthodox devotion and iconography. It is an unnecessary embellishment.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2012, 11:12:12 PM »
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Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

The first two sentences sum things up very well.  :)

Quote
Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?

Such imagery was absent from Orthodox iconography for many centuries, and only began to creep into it from about the 17th C onwards, with the encroachment of Venetian and other western influences on Orthodox devotion and iconography. It is an unnecessary embellishment.

Oddly enough, a few hours ago I got to thinking about this myself, but I don't think I had ever really thought much about it before this thread. Specifically, it had never really occurred to me that someone could call Mary "queen" and yet object to speaking about "the coronation of Mary".
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Offline Melodist

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2012, 12:08:11 AM »
Specifically, it had never really occurred to me that someone could call Mary "queen" and yet object to speaking about "the coronation of Mary".

While I can see no reason to object depicting Mary with a crown on her head (as a theological statement), I'm not aware of anything we have specifically commemorating a coronation as an event. We do describe a number of saints as "receiving a crown" in reference to the saints being given crowns and casting them down at the feet of Christ in Revelation, but the only time you see a crown in iconography that I'm aware of is to indicate royalty (Ss David, Solomon, Katherine for example).
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Delphine

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2012, 12:59:52 AM »
While I can see no reason to object depicting Mary with a crown on her head (as a theological statement), I'm not aware of anything we have specifically commemorating a coronation as an event.

This post on byzcath.org talks about "The Rule of the Theotokos" as presented in The Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy published in Moscow. The 15th decade is dedicated to the glorification of the Mother of God by the Holy Trinity. Should this be taken as an event? What do you think of this decade specifically and the Orthofied rosary generally?

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2012, 01:19:56 AM »
"Orthodoxification" is tricky business. When you try to make non-Orthodox things fit Orthodoxy somehow, you run into a serious issue in that you have something which may have begun as Orthodox, then was changed under the influence of heterodoxy and a different spirituality from Orthodoxy, and then you want to take that and make it Orthodox or, more probably, force it into an Orthodox interpretation, making the whole thing pretty esoteric.

Why not just do the 150 salutations minus the stuff that was added post-schism?
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Offline walter1234

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2012, 08:46:27 AM »
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Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 08:50:41 AM by walter1234 »

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2012, 09:30:33 AM »
If one "choses" to read certain Scriptures separated from others then one is a "choser", in Greek, a heretic. Those verses are very instructful when read along with St. Lukes description of the meeting of Saint Isabel and the Virgin Mary where St. Isabel says "Who am I that the Mother of my Lord comes to me?"

Mary is the Mother of God, and that passage of Luke makes a parallel between her and the Ark of the Alliance, something that is far from assigning her no role at all.

When later Jesus gives us the teaching you've quoted, He's rebuking the idea that mere bloodlinks would give anyone any privilege. Putting the two passages together, we learn the Virgin Mary is special not just for her fleshly bonds to Christ, but because she is the one who most perfectly witnessed to what Jesus said by doing the will of the Father - what she did by saying yes to God and living a holy life.

Also, the fullness of her role is seen the book of Revelation where she is seen "clothed in sun, with twelve stars for a crown and the moon at her feet". And all that, not because she is related to Jesus, but because she does the will of the Father with all her heart and being, more than anyone had ever done and ever will.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2012, 09:45:26 AM »
Specifically, it had never really occurred to me that someone could call Mary "queen" and yet object to speaking about "the coronation of Mary".

While I can see no reason to object depicting Mary with a crown on her head (as a theological statement), I'm not aware of anything we have specifically commemorating a coronation as an event.

Yes, that's what I'm also hearing in other people's posts here, yet I had never really considered that distinction before.

I'm also reminded of something I heard way back when. Nowadays, the Assumption and the Coronation are the 4th and 5th Glorious Mysteries, respectively; but I've heard that once upon a time they both together were the 4th mystery, and the 5th Glorious Mystery was the Second Coming of Christ.
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Offline Delphine

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2012, 11:30:20 AM »
"Orthodoxification" is tricky business. When you try to make non-Orthodox things fit Orthodoxy somehow, you run into a serious issue in that you have something which may have begun as Orthodox, then was changed under the influence of heterodoxy and a different spirituality from Orthodoxy, and then you want to take that and make it Orthodox or, more probably, force it into an Orthodox interpretation, making the whole thing pretty esoteric.

Why not just do the 150 salutations minus the stuff that was added post-schism?

My mind has a tendency to wander, and calling to mind a new mystery at the start of each decade helps to keep me attentive. Also, recalling events in this sort of devotion is a great way to remember them. Catholics can tell you about Mary's coronation because of the rosary, or how Jesus fell three times on his way to be crucified because of the Stations of the Cross. Even scriptural events, like Simon of Cyrene helping to carry the cross, I know mainly because of the Stations. And while the Presentation of Christ at the Temple may not be a Catholic holy day of obligation, they'll never forget it if they pray the rosary!

When I see an Orthodox form of something I found to be helpful as a Catholic, I do tend to get a little excited. :) I don't want to hold on to practices that may be "bad", but I also don't want to discard what is good.

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2012, 11:43:50 AM »
Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

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« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 11:45:56 AM by quietmorning »
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Offline quietmorning

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2012, 12:45:09 PM »
**2nd Response+**

Another thing that a lot of protestants don't take into account is that Jesus IS GOD.  Therefore He MADE THE RULES - and He IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE - SINLESS.  

One of the rules He made was to Honor your Father and your Mother.  

To use this scripture in the way the protestants suggest is to humiliate His mother in public.  If my son did this to me in the same scenario - I would be publicly shamed - humiliated beyond belief.  

So this CANNOT be the meaning of this scripture.  He could not have used this scenario to disown His mother.  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 12:46:07 PM by quietmorning »
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Offline Melodist

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2012, 08:49:16 PM »
Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

It's not about diminishing the significance of the role of Mary (offering herself to be the means by which the Word became flesh) in the Word becoming flesh. It gives us the hope that by offering ourselves to God, we can become conformed to Christ and bear witness of Him to the world.

It's not about diminishing Mary's obedience, love, or lifelong devotion to God or the culmination of that being found in her being raised from the dead by her Son. It's about giving us hope that by our obedience, love, and lifelong devotion to God that we may be raised to glory by her Son when He returns.

It's not a sign of disrespect to His family, but a promise of hope that we can be adopted into His family.

Mary is the great example of how we are to love, honor, and obey God. She is the great example of how we are to bear Christ to the world. She is the great example of how we are to follow Christ to the cross and stay by his side when we must endure sorrow. She is the great example of one of us being raised from life to death and inheriting the eternal life that Christ offers us all in the age to come. There is nothing insignificant about this.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Ashman618

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2012, 08:58:39 PM »
Walter please research the prayer rule of the theotokos it by far pre-dates the rosery.

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2012, 09:31:50 PM »
Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.
Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

This is shallow reasoning. What would such Protestants say about the following verse then?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”. (Matthew 7:21)

If we follow the faulty reasoning, we must conclude that calling Jesus "Lord" is not important or necessary!

Or about the following statement by John the Baptist?

Therefore produce fruit that proves your repentance, and don’t think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones!” (Matthew 8-9)

Yet Jesus said: “Today salvation has come to this household, because he too is a son of Abraham!” (Luke 19:9)




« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 09:32:36 PM by Theophilos78 »
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Offline walter1234

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2012, 04:51:42 AM »
Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 04:54:04 AM by walter1234 »

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2012, 05:01:55 AM »
John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus.
"Woman" was a respectful way to address people in those languages. It doesn't imply insignificance or contempt.

Also, Jesus did what his mother asked him to do, if you finish the story.
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Offline Deborah

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2012, 05:21:28 AM »
Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

According to the Othodox Study Bible note on this verse:

Quote
Contrary to certain modern usages, Woman is a sacred title in Scripture, an address conveying deep respect and distinction (John 4:21, 8:10, 19:26, 20:13; compare to Genesis 2:23).  What does your concern have to do with Me? is more literally,"What is that to Me and to you?"  This answer is not a refusal of Mary's intercession, but a declaration that the time had not yet come for Christ to be revealed.

And:

...Jesus called Mary "woman" ...he is atually making a reference to Genesis 3:15 and Mary's role in our salvation (yes I said it, but biblically speaking, anyone can play a role in the salvation of others without negating Christ as savior) as the "woman" whose seed would bruise the serpent's head.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2012, 02:38:24 PM »
What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

You should read "Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ" particularly paragraphs 23-25.
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2012, 03:38:20 PM »

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

The Blessed Virgin certainly is "only a servant" of God. Her nature is the same as ours. Insomuch that she is a holy person, we can be every bit (albeit giving birth to Christ, such what makes her so beloved and unique).

That said, this passage certainly doesn't show that the Theotokos is insignificant. Though Christ says, "What as this to do with us? It is not yet my time." His Most Pure Mother does not address Christ directly again, she simply tells the servants "Do whatever he asks of you." and Jesus precedes, without question to His Mother's wish, to perform a miracle.

This passage shows us the power of the intercessions of the Mother of God, not her insignificance.
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2012, 05:56:19 PM »

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

The Blessed Virgin certainly is "only a servant" of God. Her nature is the same as ours. Insomuch that she is a holy person, we can be every bit (albeit giving birth to Christ, such what makes her so beloved and unique).

That said, this passage certainly doesn't show that the Theotokos is insignificant. Though Christ says, "What as this to do with us? It is not yet my time." His Most Pure Mother does not address Christ directly again, she simply tells the servants "Do whatever he asks of you." and Jesus precedes, without question to His Mother's wish, to perform a miracle.

This passage shows us the power of the intercessions of the Mother of God, not her insignificance.

The passage also expresses a fundamental, irrevocable truth: Even the Son of God listens to his mama!   :laugh:
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2012, 01:07:26 AM »
Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?
We glorify Mary as Theotokos precisely because she did the will of our Father who is in heaven, and more faithfully than anyone else ever has or ever will in this world. "Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done to me according to your word."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 01:08:04 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2012, 10:13:13 AM »
Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

It is a term of endearment in Semitic languages. That we find being called woman to be a negative thing says a lot more about English-speakers than it does about Jesus' relation to his mother.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2012, 03:25:13 PM »
Good to know.  Thanks for Reply No. 73.
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2012, 08:41:15 AM »
Would Orthodox Christians call Virgin Mary as Mother of the world or Mother of all people , like Catholic Christians?

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2012, 10:46:03 AM »
Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother, Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

And then what did He go and do?

Just what she asked Him to do.  

Hell hath no fury like an ignored Jewish mother. ;)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 10:46:22 AM by Schultz »
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Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2012, 11:20:17 AM »
Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother, Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

And then what did He go and do?

Just what she asked Him to do.  

Hell hath no fury like an ignored Jewish mother. ;)

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2012, 03:05:35 PM »
Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2012, 03:38:14 PM »
Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.

Shanghaiski, in what way do you mean that Protestants don't accept the Incarnation?  Thanks.
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #80 on: December 26, 2012, 04:19:59 PM »
Would Orthodox Christians call Virgin Mary as Mother of the world or Mother of all people , like Catholic Christians?
Any comment?

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #81 on: December 26, 2012, 05:09:59 PM »
Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother, Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

And then what did He go and do?

Just what she asked Him to do.  

Hell hath no fury like an ignored Jewish mother. ;)

Of course! As any good Jewish boy knows, listen to your mama!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #82 on: December 26, 2012, 05:42:00 PM »
Would Orthodox Christians call Virgin Mary as Mother of the world or Mother of all people , like Catholic Christians?
Any comment?

Well, the Orthodox do call her the "Mother of all living" among other things (http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/ocrc/2009/06/st-mary-in-the-orthodox-church/) so that would presumably mean the same as "Mother of all people" or "Mother of the world".

What is your problem with those specific titles?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #83 on: December 26, 2012, 05:58:44 PM »
Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.

Shanghaiski, in what way do you mean that Protestants don't accept the Incarnation?  Thanks.

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #84 on: December 26, 2012, 06:16:03 PM »
Some Protestants do sorta deny the incarnation, albeit unintentionally, when they go into the whole thing about "Mary is the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God!"
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #85 on: December 26, 2012, 07:02:36 PM »
Fr. Tom Hopko did a podcast a while back about how even individual Orthodox sort of deny the Incarnation by not fully appreciating what it means that God became man.
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2012, 07:59:02 PM »
Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.

Shanghaiski, in what way do you mean that Protestants don't accept the Incarnation?  Thanks.

Precisely in that many reject that the Mother of God is anyone special, as if Jesus was never born and raised by anyone. Or the rejection of icons. Implications, implications.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2012, 08:45:23 PM »
Fr. Tom Hopko did a podcast a while back about how even individual Orthodox sort of deny the Incarnation by not fully appreciating what it means that God became man.

To be fair, I think that's a concept that everyone has at least a little trouble wrapping their minds around!  :)
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #88 on: December 27, 2012, 02:20:01 AM »
Fr. Tom Hopko did a podcast a while back about how even individual Orthodox sort of deny the Incarnation by not fully appreciating what it means that God became man.

To be fair, I think that's a concept that everyone has at least a little trouble wrapping their minds around!  :)

We can never fully comprehend the mystery of the Incarnation, but we can, and do, believe it happened and proclaim its truth.
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Re: the roles of mary in orthodox church??
« Reply #89 on: December 27, 2012, 08:10:32 AM »
Did any of you -- particularly those of you who are cradle Orthodox (or cradle Catholic) ever think it was alright to call Mary the Mother of the Trinity?

I did, for a short time in the 90s. I came to realize my error, not through direct correction (as I never discussed it with anyone) but by something Dr. Miravalle said in Mariology class: A Protestant had asked a Catholic "How can Mary be the Mother of the Father?" to which the Catholic replied "You've got to believe." I forget what Miravalle said after that, but that was when I realized that I was wrong in thinking it was alright to call Mary the Mother of the Trinity.
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