OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 28, 2014, 03:35:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: the roles of mary in orthodox church??  (Read 4544 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« on: September 23, 2012, 02:20:21 AM »

1.What is the role of Virgin Mary in Orthodox Church?? Are orthodox christian honor Mary as the same way honor the saints??

2. Will orthodox christian call Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven,our Queen, like Catholic Christians??


3. I heard the catholic christians said that Virgin Mary is the mother of Jesus. Praying to Jesus through the intercession with Virgin Mary will be more effective. Does the orthodox christian agree with it??
Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 466



« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 02:51:21 AM »

1.What is the role of Virgin Mary in Orthodox Church?? Are orthodox christian honor Mary as the same way honor the saints??
Orthodox Christians refer to the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos (or in Syriac Yaldoth Aloho) ie God Bearer or "Mother of God".  The Theotokos is held in a very high honor.

2. Will orthodox christian call Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven,our Queen, like Catholic Christians??

Virgin Mary the Theotokos is called the Queen. We interpret the 'queen in gold from Ophir' referred to in Psalm 45:9 is indeed her.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm%2045:9&version=NKJV

3. I heard the catholic christians said that Virgin Mary is the mother of Jesus. Praying to Jesus through the intercession with Virgin Mary will be more effective. Does the orthodox christian agree with it??
I am not sure how to measure the effectiveness of praying directly to Jesus vs asking for the intercession of Virgin Mary. Assume you are going thru some hardships; and you ask your mother to pray for you.. and you pray for yourself. Is your mothers prayer more effective than yours. I don't know.
Logged

NULL
Knee V
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 227



« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 12:08:09 AM »

1.What is the role of Virgin Mary in Orthodox Church?? Are orthodox christian honor Mary as the same way honor the saints??

2. Will orthodox christian call Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven,our Queen, like Catholic Christians??


3. I heard the catholic christians said that Virgin Mary is the mother of Jesus. Praying to Jesus through the intercession with Virgin Mary will be more effective. Does the orthodox christian agree with it??


1) We honor all the saints as the work of the Holy Spirit manifest in their lives. "God is wondrous in His saints." Mary, the Theotokos (God-bearer, or Mother of God), as part of the body of Christ (just like all the saints) intercedes for the Church to her Son. Her prayers help us.

2) dhinuus answered that one about as well as I would have answered it.

3) Yes, Mary is the mother of Jesus. And since Christ is God (and in the flesh He has been God since the absolute moment of conception), she is the Mother of God (unless we would deny that Christ is God). We need all the prayers we can get. We ask for the prayers of Mary, just as we ask for the prayers of all the saints. We cannot separate Christ from His work in the lives of the saints, and we cannot separate the saints from the work of Christ. We cannot have Christ without the whole body. We live in order to commune with God, and ask the saints to pray for us that we might acquire the grace of the Holy Spirit and truly come to know Christ fully.
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,018



« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 12:32:22 AM »

 The Divine Services of the Orthodox Church call her:

"All Holy;" Pure, Most Blessed;" "Glorious Lady;" the "Mother of God," ("Theotokos") which some feel is better translated as "Birth-giver of God;" and "Ever Virgin Mary"

"A protection of Christians unshameable, Intercessor to our Holy Maker, unwaivering" "a protection for all time"

"Ever Blessed;" "All Blameless" "More honorable than the Cherubim," "More glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim;" "Who without stain did bear God the Word."

"Queen of All," is another term Orthodoxy ascribes to her.  (There is a church named for her in Louisville, Kentucky, "Panaghia Pandovasiliasa," "The All Holy Queen of All.")

"She who contained the uncontainable one" 

And there are many, many more adjectives about her throughout Orthodox Christian hymnology.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 12:44:02 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Knee V
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 227



« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 12:39:38 AM »

Something I forgot to add:

Mary is certainly special. She is uniquely blessed among women. However, what we say is true of her is true of her because it is true of the entire Church. As Christ is the archetype of mankind, Mary is the prototype of the Church. She fully submitted herself to God, and the Church fully submits herself to God. Mary is a spotless virgin, and the Church is a spotless virgin. Mary bore God within herself, and the Church bears God within herself. Mary is "more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim", and the Church is "more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim."
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,835


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 01:06:10 AM »

2. Will orthodox christian call Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven,our Queen, like Catholic Christians??
Yeah, sometimes.

Because Jesus is the Messiah and a Davidic King, and the queen in Israeli kingship was the mother of the king.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 10:14:32 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m_JtyDkHR8&feature=related



In these videos / websites, I see a term which is called " Mirales of Blessed Virgin Mary". This confuses me a lot.  Undecided


1) As what I know, Virgin Mary is the most honored saints in Orthodox Church. However, She is not God. Only Trinity GOd is God. Moreover, Trinity God is  the only one who gives the power to His servants to perform miracles, or the only one who performs miracles through His servants, animals, or any other objects, etc, but not Virgin Mary.Why do some orthodox christians call these miracles that God perform or God performed through His servants as " Miracles of Blessed Virgin Mary" rather than " Miracle of God"??

2)The term of  " Mirales of Blessed Virgin Mary" seems give all paise to Virgin Mary, not to God. However, God is the only one who give power to His servants to perform this miracles or the only one who do so through miracles through His servants, animals, or any other objects, etc. All Glory should belong to God alone. Why do some orthodox christians give  the praises to Mary, but not  to Trinity God??
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 10:34:07 AM by walter1234 » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 10:17:24 AM »

2)The term of  " Mirales of Blessed Virgin Mary" seems give all paise toVirgin Mary, not God.

That's your own view.

Quote
However, God is the only one who give power to His servants to perform this miracles or the only one who do so through miracles through His servants, animals, or any other objects, etc

Right.

Quote
Why do some orthodox christians give  the praise to Mary, but not  to Trinity God??

None of us does that.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 10:32:25 AM »

2)The term of  " Mirales of Blessed Virgin Mary" seems give all paise toVirgin Mary, not God.

That's your own view.

Quote
However, God is the only one who give power to His servants to perform this miracles or the only one who do so through miracles through His servants, animals, or any other objects, etc

Right.

Quote
Why do some orthodox christians give  the praise to Mary, but not  to Trinity God??

None of us does that.
I think this also confuses many Protestant Christians.

'Miracle of blessed Virgin Mary' ='Virgin Mary's mircales'= 'Miracles that come from Virgin Mary'  

Seems Miracles are not performed by or come from God...

I still cannot understand, still confuse. Can somebody explain to me more detail?

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 10:36:04 AM by walter1234 » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 10:34:21 AM »

"Miracle performed after Theotokos' intercession to her Son"
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 10:34:34 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 10:23:50 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmWiQ4sJ8A


This video/ The pastor in this video shows how most Protestant Christians view on Virgin Mary. Do you have any comment on it??
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 10:24:08 AM by walter1234 » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 10:26:59 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmWiQ4sJ8A


This video/ The pastor in this video shows how most Protestant Christians view on Virgin Mary. Do you have any comment on it??

We don't care.

Does that satisfy you?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 10:40:16 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmWiQ4sJ8A


This video/ The pastor in this video shows how most Protestant Christians view on Virgin Mary. Do you have any comment on it??

We know how Protestants view the Theotokos. A fair few of us, including myself, are ex-Protestants. The Protestant view of her is wrong and, ironically considering that Protestants adhere to sola scriptura, it seems to me, directly contradicted by the Bible:

And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
-Luke 1: 41-42


How do you reconcile that with the Protestant position? I was never able to, and I'd note that Martin Luther, he who started the Protestant Reformation, honoured the Theotokos above all women also. If 'Bible alone' lead him to adhere to a view of the Theotokos much like ours, why does 'Bible alone' lead many modern Protestants to quite another. The answer, might I suggest, is that nobody, no matter how much they claim to, can approach the Bible alone. The question isn't whether you interpret it via a tradition, but which tradition to use - the 2000 year old Holy Tradition of the Church or the much more recent traditions of the Protestants.

James
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 10:41:25 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,240



« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2012, 11:04:07 AM »

The answer, might I suggest, is that nobody, no matter how much they claim to, can approach the Bible alone. The question isn't whether you interpret it via a tradition, but which tradition to use - the 2000 year old Holy Tradition of the Church or the much more recent traditions of the Protestants.


And there you have it!

(Bravo, James!)
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2012, 04:29:08 PM »

we venerate Mary because she is the archetype for the Church and the archetype of human effort.. Christ was God-Man, divine-human, but Mary is only human and she represents the human effort to meet God.. God met in Mary which resulted in the incarnation.. Mary is the Mother of Jesus, the Incarnated God, the Mother of God.. On account to her motherhood we venerate Mary more than the saints(in that we have more feasts,songs,hymns,and ascribe more honour to her than the saints) because no one else in history had this priviledge to be the Mother of God, of Jesus the Incarnated one..

Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,026


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2012, 06:02:16 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmWiQ4sJ8A


This video/ The pastor in this video shows how most Protestant Christians view on Virgin Mary. Do you have any comment on it??

Lk. 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

...

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

---

It's very simple, and it's not ambiguous.

Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2012, 02:19:02 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmWiQ4sJ8A


This video/ The pastor in this video shows how most Protestant Christians view on Virgin Mary. Do you have any comment on it??

the one who gave the commandment to honour your parents and who said we should fulfill all righteousness did not honour his mother?in fact it is in relationship with her honouring he performed his first miracle.. tradition says Mary remained a virgin.. the only one whom is called Mary`s child in the bible is Jesus..
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2012, 03:42:31 AM »

Catholic Church believe that Virgin Mary has been rised up to Heaven. Jesus has rewarded her and appointed her as the Queen in the Heaven. It is part of the story in Rosary Prayer. Does Orthodox Churchbelieve this story?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 03:43:27 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,018



« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2012, 06:13:02 AM »

Catholic Church believe that Virgin Mary has been rised up to Heaven. Jesus has rewarded her and appointed her as the Queen in the Heaven. It is part of the story in Rosary Prayer. Does Orthodox Churchbelieve this story?

The hymnology of the Orthodox Church discusses the assumption of the Theotokos, the Mother of God, to heaven, but this pious teaching is not dogma, as it is in the Roman Catholic.  Her bodily assumption is not a matter of faith required for belief required for the faithful.  The Orthodox Church commemorates the "Falling Asleep of the the Most Holy Theotokos," on the 15th of August, while the Roman Catholic Church commemorates her bodily "Assumption," which is quite a later day doctrine of the RC Church. 

Orthodoxy does honor her as the "Queen of Heaven." 

The Orthodox Church does not share the rosary practice.  It does have a spiritual practice of repeating the "Jesus Prayer," "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me (a sinner)," accompanied with the use of a "Prayer Rope," a knoted band worn around the wrist.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2012, 07:51:48 AM »

Catholic Church believe that Virgin Mary has been rised up to Heaven. Jesus has rewarded her and appointed her as the Queen in the Heaven. It is part of the story in Rosary Prayer. Does Orthodox Churchbelieve this story?

The hymnology of the Orthodox Church discusses the assumption of the Theotokos, the Mother of God, to heaven, but this pious teaching is not dogma, as it is in the Roman Catholic.  Her bodily assumption is not a matter of faith required for belief required for the faithful.  The Orthodox Church commemorates the "Falling Asleep of the the Most Holy Theotokos," on the 15th of August, while the Roman Catholic Church commemorates her bodily "Assumption," which is quite a later day doctrine of the RC Church.  

Orthodoxy does honor her as the "Queen of Heaven."  

The Orthodox Church does not share the rosary practice.  It does have a spiritual practice of repeating the "Jesus Prayer," "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me (a sinner)," accompanied with the use of a "Prayer Rope," a knoted band worn around the wrist.

Is the position of Virgin Mary really a Queen in Heaven now?

Did Jesus really appoint Virgin Mary as a Queen after she died and went to heaven?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 07:53:11 AM by walter1234 » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2012, 09:21:05 AM »

The hymnology of the Orthodox Church discusses the assumption of the Theotokos, the Mother of God, to heaven, but this pious teaching is not dogma, as it is in the Roman Catholic.  Her bodily assumption is not a matter of faith required for belief required for the faithful. 

Since it's mentioned in hymnography? I wouldn't be so sure.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,011


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2012, 09:52:15 AM »

Lex orandi, lex credendi.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 09:52:24 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,011


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2012, 09:56:23 AM »

Catholic Church believe that Virgin Mary has been rised up to Heaven. Jesus has rewarded her and appointed her as the Queen in the Heaven. It is part of the story in Rosary Prayer. Does Orthodox Churchbelieve this story?

The hymnology of the Orthodox Church discusses the assumption of the Theotokos, the Mother of God, to heaven, but this pious teaching is not dogma, as it is in the Roman Catholic.  Her bodily assumption is not a matter of faith required for belief required for the faithful.  The Orthodox Church commemorates the "Falling Asleep of the the Most Holy Theotokos," on the 15th of August, while the Roman Catholic Church commemorates her bodily "Assumption," which is quite a later day doctrine of the RC Church. 

Orthodoxy does honor her as the "Queen of Heaven." 

The Orthodox Church does not share the rosary practice.  It does have a spiritual practice of repeating the "Jesus Prayer," "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me (a sinner)," accompanied with the use of a "Prayer Rope," a knoted band worn around the wrist.

Is the position of Virgin Mary really a Queen in Heaven now?

Did Jesus really appoint Virgin Mary as a Queen after she died and went to heaven?

It's poetic language. Take this quote from St. Cyril of Alexandria for example:

"Hail to Mary, Mother of God,
majestic treasure of the whole world,
the lamp unquenchable, the crown of virginity,
the sceptre of Orthodoxy, the indestructible temple,
the dwelling of the Illimitable,
Mother and Virgin."

You shouldn't take poetic language too seriously. Mary the Theotokos is not literally a sceptre, or a lamp.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 09:58:14 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2012, 10:58:51 AM »

Catholic Church believe that Virgin Mary has been rised up to Heaven. Jesus has rewarded her and appointed her as the Queen in the Heaven. It is part of the story in Rosary Prayer. Does Orthodox Churchbelieve this story?

The hymnology of the Orthodox Church discusses the assumption of the Theotokos, the Mother of God, to heaven, but this pious teaching is not dogma, as it is in the Roman Catholic.  Her bodily assumption is not a matter of faith required for belief required for the faithful.  The Orthodox Church commemorates the "Falling Asleep of the the Most Holy Theotokos," on the 15th of August, while the Roman Catholic Church commemorates her bodily "Assumption," which is quite a later day doctrine of the RC Church.  

Orthodoxy does honor her as the "Queen of Heaven."  

The Orthodox Church does not share the rosary practice.  It does have a spiritual practice of repeating the "Jesus Prayer," "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me (a sinner)," accompanied with the use of a "Prayer Rope," a knoted band worn around the wrist.

Is the position of Virgin Mary really a Queen in Heaven now?

Did Jesus really appoint Virgin Mary as a Queen after she died and went to heaven?

It's poetic language. Take this quote from St. Cyril of Alexandria for example:

"Hail to Mary, Mother of God,
majestic treasure of the whole world,
the lamp unquenchable, the crown of virginity,
the sceptre of Orthodoxy, the indestructible temple,
the dwelling of the Illimitable,
Mother and Virgin."

You shouldn't take poetic language too seriously. Mary the Theotokos is not literally a sceptre, or a lamp.

This is more sensible. Catholic Christians take this poetic langauage too serious. They believe that God has really appointed Virgin Mary as a  "Real" Queen in Heaven. They even take this as their doctrine and put this in the rosary prayer.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 11:01:06 AM by walter1234 » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2012, 11:02:03 AM »

Theotokos it the Queen of Heaven. Period. Truly.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2012, 12:17:18 PM »

Jesus is king in Heaven now. And Virgin Mary is queen of heaven now.  The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.

This title(e.g Queen of Heaven) seems give too much honours to Virigin Mary. Isn't it?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:18:13 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,011


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2012, 12:33:23 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2012, 12:35:08 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.

One is King in Heaven while the other one is also the Queen in heaven....  Their position in heaven is very similar and very high and very close to each other ... Huh

How do Orthodox Christian understand this titile of Virgin Mary,e.g. "Queen in Heaven" ?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:38:09 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,011


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2012, 12:44:30 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.

One is King in Heaven while the other one is also the Queen in heaven....  Their position in heaven is very similar and very high and very close to each other ... Huh


Well, no. In the Davidic kingdom the queen mother was called queen too. Of course, the king was infinitely more powerful. In this context this must be seen.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2012, 12:49:18 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.

One is King in Heaven while the other one is also the Queen in heaven....  Their position in heaven is very similar and very high and very close to each other ... Huh


Well, no. In the Davidic kingdom the queen mother was called queen too. Of course, the king was infinitely more powerful. In this context this must be seen.

Except God, is Virgin Mary more powerful than everybody else, include angels, saints, etc in Heaven ?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:49:41 PM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,011


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2012, 12:51:42 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.

One is King in Heaven while the other one is also the Queen in heaven....  Their position in heaven is very similar and very high and very close to each other ... Huh


Well, no. In the Davidic kingdom the queen mother was called queen too. Of course, the king was infinitely more powerful. In this context this must be seen.

Except God, is Virgin Mary more powerful than everybody else, include angels, saints, etc in Heaven ?

Yes.
Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2012, 12:56:02 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.

One is King in Heaven while the other one is also the Queen in heaven....  Their position in heaven is very similar and very high and very close to each other ... Huh


Well, no. In the Davidic kingdom the queen mother was called queen too. Of course, the king was infinitely more powerful. In this context this must be seen.

Except God, is Virgin Mary more powerful than everybody else, include angels, saints, etc in Heaven ?

Yes.

How can we know God has appointed Virgin Mary as the Queen in Heaven?

It is not recorded in bible. It is the issue which happened in Heaven / spirit world, not in earth. We could not evem see this issue when it happened . How can we know God really appointed Virgin Mary as Queen in Heaven?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:57:08 PM by walter1234 » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2012, 01:37:26 PM »

God appoint virgin Mary as Queen.
THis is an issue which is not recorded in bible and  happened in spiritual world.And How can we know this is not a stuff which was imagined by men , but a REAL issue?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 01:39:21 PM by walter1234 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,901


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2012, 02:27:09 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.

One is King in Heaven while the other one is also the Queen in heaven....  Their position in heaven is very similar and very high and very close to each other ... Huh


Well, no. In the Davidic kingdom the queen mother was called queen too. Of course, the king was infinitely more powerful. In this context this must be seen.

Except God, is Virgin Mary more powerful than everybody else, include angels, saints, etc in Heaven ?

Yes.

How can we know God has appointed Virgin Mary as the Queen in Heaven?

It is not recorded in bible. It is the issue which happened in Heaven / spirit world, not in earth. We could not evem see this issue when it happened . How can we know God really appointed Virgin Mary as Queen in Heaven?
We have the witness of the Holy Spirit in the Church.
Logged
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2012, 04:00:10 PM »

The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.



Well, no.

One is King in Heaven while the other one is also the Queen in heaven....  Their position in heaven is very similar and very high and very close to each other ... Huh


Well, no. In the Davidic kingdom the queen mother was called queen too. Of course, the king was infinitely more powerful. In this context this must be seen.

Except God, is Virgin Mary more powerful than everybody else, include angels, saints, etc in Heaven ?

Yes.

How can we know God has appointed Virgin Mary as the Queen in Heaven?

It is not recorded in bible. It is the issue which happened in Heaven / spirit world, not in earth. We could not evem see this issue when it happened . How can we know God really appointed Virgin Mary as Queen in Heaven?

did you heard of figures of speech?
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,109



« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2012, 04:07:35 PM »

Jesus is king in Heaven now. And Virgin Mary is queen of heaven now.  The position of Virgin Mary in Heaven is as the same as/ quite close to Jesus. It also implied they are ruling the Heaven and control every issues together.

This title(e.g Queen of Heaven) seems give too much honours to Virigin Mary. Isn't it?

Only if/when it is overemphasized.

I've heard that some of the early Franciscans wanted to give Our Lady (domina) equal honor with Our Lord (domine). St. Francis intervened, reminding them that she is a creature, whereas he is the creator.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,026


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2012, 04:12:54 PM »

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but I always thought of the Virgin Mary as being like the Queen Mother in England. (When there is a QM alive, that is.) She isn't the queen, she's not ruling or in charge of the country, but she has special honor because the queen is her child. Similarly, the Virgin Mary in no way takes the place of Jesus, but how could we not love Jesus' mother?  Smiley
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2012, 05:02:30 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLmWiQ4sJ8A

This video/ The pastor in this video shows how most Protestant Christians view on Virgin Mary. Do you have any comment on it??

He implies that the one who "does the will of the Father" somehow excludes Mary, even though she showed a great devotion to doing the will of the Father. This passage isn't meant to bring Mary down, but to give us the hope that we can be accepted and adopted as Christ's family by doing the will of the Father.

Also, he outright says that Jesus called Mary "woman" as a means of ditancing Himself from her when he is atually making a reference to Genesis 3:15 and Mary's role in our salvation (yes I said it, but biblically speaking, anyone can play a role in the salvation of others without negating Christ as savior) as the "woman" whose seed would bruise the serpent's head.

He basically gave the opposite of what is actually meant in those two passages of scripture.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2012, 05:08:03 PM »

The queens in the OT were the mother of the King. Christ is our King. His Mother is our Queen. Mary was chosen to be Queen when she was chosen to be the Mother of the King.

How can we know God has appointed Virgin Mary as the Queen in Heaven?

The annunciation.

Quote
It is not recorded in bible.

The annunciation.

Quote
How can we know God really appointed Virgin Mary as Queen in Heaven?

The annunciation.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,080



« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2012, 05:34:55 PM »

What is the source of Mary being called "Queen?"  I saw the word in Orthros this morning, but I never knew the source.
Logged
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,507


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2012, 06:03:59 PM »

Quote
It is not recorded in bible. It is the issue which happened in Heaven / spirit world, not in earth. We could not evem see this issue when it happened . How can we know God really appointed Virgin Mary as Queen in Heaven?

From Luke ch 1:

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

29 But when she saw him,[d] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”

38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord.”
Logged
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2012, 06:17:23 PM »

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, in the time of King Herod, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem saying, “Where is the one who is born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” ... As they came into the house and saw the child with Mary his mother, they bowed down and worshiped him. They opened their treasure boxes and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. (Matthew 2:1-2, 11)
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2012, 06:27:49 PM »

Father Gregory Hallam touched on this in his Dormition homily this year:

Quote
As followers of Jesus Christ, we are promised that we also shall all be deified, achieving the likeness as well as the image of God, and receive Resurrection bodies (though for most of us all this will happen beyond this life). The Mother of God is therefore our example and inspiration. She is the first to receive her crown of glory as Queen in heaven, but no less shall we with her be kings and queens also by the saving work of God.

Fr. Gregory seems to have an understanding of "Queen" beyond "Queen Mother".  Thoughts? Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all? Or both?
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,109



« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2012, 06:56:34 PM »

Father Gregory Hallam touched on this in his Dormition homily this year:

Quote
As followers of Jesus Christ, we are promised that we also shall all be deified, achieving the likeness as well as the image of God, and receive Resurrection bodies (though for most of us all this will happen beyond this life). The Mother of God is therefore our example and inspiration. She is the first to receive her crown of glory as Queen in heaven, but no less shall we with her be kings and queens also by the saving work of God.

Fr. Gregory seems to have an understanding of "Queen" beyond "Queen Mother".  Thoughts? Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all? Or both?

It seems to me that, in Israel in David's time, "queen" meant "queen mother" (i.e. mother of the king).
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2012, 07:08:41 PM »

Walter,

The Most Holy Theotokos is the Mother of God, who is the King of Heaven. By virtue of being his mother, she is the queen. She is the first Christian, the first to believe in her own Son for her salvation. She is His mother. Why would she not have a special place in His heart?

The Church celebrates the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos on August 15th. The hymns on this day teach us that the Theotokos died a natural death, and was assumed into Heaven by her Son, in the body (i.e., she has attained the Resurrection, no one else...save Christ...has done so). Tradition tells us she appears to the Apostles, after they find her body to be missing from the tomb, and tells them what has happened. This Tradition is very old, almost two millennia. She resides in the heavenly realms, with Christ and the saints, and she prays for us, just as the rest of the saints do so.

When we speak of saints "working miracles", we believe that this is so. The saint does work that miracle, but it is only through the grace of God that these people are saints, and as saints they have united themselves to Christ that they would not, nay could not, act without the blessing of God. God gives His saints the grace to work miracles, but the ultimate power is that grace from God. Saints could not be saints, could do nothing, without the power of God. That said, the saints aren't mindless zombies in heaven sent to do God's bidding. They are as you and I, people who love God and neighbor, and desire to help those in need, and they do these miracles themselves, by the grace of God.

You seem to have the very common and very erroneous belief that, for us to believe saints work miracles mean that we devalue God, that we're "stealing" glory from God. But, the Psalmist says, "God is glorified in his saints." The saints are the great cloud of witnesses, the testimony of the salvation of mankind...that though they have died, they are alive in Christ and we, as members of the Church through Christ have communion with these saints that also are in the Christ. It is the chief end of any Orthodox Christian to be what the saints are. They are our examples, not our exceptions. The same goes for the Most Holy Mother of God.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,507


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2012, 07:09:08 PM »

Quote
Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all?

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God? Theosis is available to us all, but the theosis achieved by the Mother of God is of quite a different order of magnitude.
Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,835


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2012, 08:52:00 PM »

How can we know God has appointed Virgin Mary as the Queen in Heaven?
She's the mother of the current King of Israel.

That makes her the queen.

It is not recorded in bible.

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.


-1 Kings 2
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,835


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2012, 08:54:39 PM »

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God?
"A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, 'blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!' But he said, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

That is the Gospel reading on one of the Theotokos's feasts, if I'm not mistaken, for a reason.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 08:54:50 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Deborah
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Newbie Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 206


Never look back


« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2012, 10:00:41 PM »

I've heard that Psalm 45:9-11 (Psalm 44:10-18 in the Orthodox Study Bible) is a reference to the Theotokos in her role as "Queen of Heaven".  Someone else could probably clarify and enlarge on that?
Logged

Live in South/East Auckland, Franklin or North Waikato regions of New Zealand? Interested in Orthodoxy? Need transport to an Orthodox Church? Want to meet others? Please send me a PM Smiley

"You have made us for yourself, Lord; and our hearts are restless until they rest in You" - St. Augustine
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,507


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2012, 10:05:31 PM »

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God?
"A woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, 'blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!' But he said, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

That is the Gospel reading on one of the Theotokos's feasts, if I'm not mistaken, for a reason.

It is actually part of the Gospel reading for all of the feasts of the Mother of God, including feasts dedicated to specific icons of her.  Smiley
Logged
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2012, 10:36:05 PM »

Quote
Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all?

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God? Theosis is available to us all, but the theosis achieved by the Mother of God is of quite a different order of magnitude.

Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2012, 10:50:42 PM »

Quote
Is Mary the Queen of Heaven, or is this a title attainable to all?

How could anyone, even the greatest, most deified saint, be put on an equal footing with she who conceived, gave birth to, and nourished the incarnate God? Theosis is available to us all, but the theosis achieved by the Mother of God is of quite a different order of magnitude.

Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?

No. It's not traditional Orthodox imagery. And it's rather presumptuous, from an Orthodox viewpoint, since there is no authoritative revelation of the event happening. We have no eyewitness testimony.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,507


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »

Quote
Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

The first two sentences sum things up very well.  Smiley

Quote
Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?

Such imagery was absent from Orthodox iconography for many centuries, and only began to creep into it from about the 17th C onwards, with the encroachment of Venetian and other western influences on Orthodox devotion and iconography. It is an unnecessary embellishment.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,109



« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2012, 11:12:12 PM »

Quote
Is this because theosis is an infinite process, and the life of the Mother of God placed her so much farther ahead than anyone else? Is it due to her special role in salvation history? Or is there something else?

The first two sentences sum things up very well.  Smiley

Quote
Also, Catholic rosary booklets often have pictures of angels, or sometimes the Trinity, placing a crown on Mary's head. Is this an acceptable depiction for Orthodox Christians?

Such imagery was absent from Orthodox iconography for many centuries, and only began to creep into it from about the 17th C onwards, with the encroachment of Venetian and other western influences on Orthodox devotion and iconography. It is an unnecessary embellishment.

Oddly enough, a few hours ago I got to thinking about this myself, but I don't think I had ever really thought much about it before this thread. Specifically, it had never really occurred to me that someone could call Mary "queen" and yet object to speaking about "the coronation of Mary".
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2012, 12:08:11 AM »

Specifically, it had never really occurred to me that someone could call Mary "queen" and yet object to speaking about "the coronation of Mary".

While I can see no reason to object depicting Mary with a crown on her head (as a theological statement), I'm not aware of anything we have specifically commemorating a coronation as an event. We do describe a number of saints as "receiving a crown" in reference to the saints being given crowns and casting them down at the feet of Christ in Revelation, but the only time you see a crown in iconography that I'm aware of is to indicate royalty (Ss David, Solomon, Katherine for example).
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2012, 12:59:52 AM »

While I can see no reason to object depicting Mary with a crown on her head (as a theological statement), I'm not aware of anything we have specifically commemorating a coronation as an event.

This post on byzcath.org talks about "The Rule of the Theotokos" as presented in The Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy published in Moscow. The 15th decade is dedicated to the glorification of the Mother of God by the Holy Trinity. Should this be taken as an event? What do you think of this decade specifically and the Orthofied rosary generally?
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2012, 01:19:56 AM »

"Orthodoxification" is tricky business. When you try to make non-Orthodox things fit Orthodoxy somehow, you run into a serious issue in that you have something which may have begun as Orthodox, then was changed under the influence of heterodoxy and a different spirituality from Orthodoxy, and then you want to take that and make it Orthodox or, more probably, force it into an Orthodox interpretation, making the whole thing pretty esoteric.

Why not just do the 150 salutations minus the stuff that was added post-schism?
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2012, 08:46:27 AM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 08:50:41 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 3,017



WWW
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2012, 09:30:33 AM »

If one "choses" to read certain Scriptures separated from others then one is a "choser", in Greek, a heretic. Those verses are very instructful when read along with St. Lukes description of the meeting of Saint Isabel and the Virgin Mary where St. Isabel says "Who am I that the Mother of my Lord comes to me?"

Mary is the Mother of God, and that passage of Luke makes a parallel between her and the Ark of the Alliance, something that is far from assigning her no role at all.

When later Jesus gives us the teaching you've quoted, He's rebuking the idea that mere bloodlinks would give anyone any privilege. Putting the two passages together, we learn the Virgin Mary is special not just for her fleshly bonds to Christ, but because she is the one who most perfectly witnessed to what Jesus said by doing the will of the Father - what she did by saying yes to God and living a holy life.

Also, the fullness of her role is seen the book of Revelation where she is seen "clothed in sun, with twelve stars for a crown and the moon at her feet". And all that, not because she is related to Jesus, but because she does the will of the Father with all her heart and being, more than anyone had ever done and ever will.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,109



« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2012, 09:45:26 AM »

Specifically, it had never really occurred to me that someone could call Mary "queen" and yet object to speaking about "the coronation of Mary".

While I can see no reason to object depicting Mary with a crown on her head (as a theological statement), I'm not aware of anything we have specifically commemorating a coronation as an event.

Yes, that's what I'm also hearing in other people's posts here, yet I had never really considered that distinction before.

I'm also reminded of something I heard way back when. Nowadays, the Assumption and the Coronation are the 4th and 5th Glorious Mysteries, respectively; but I've heard that once upon a time they both together were the 4th mystery, and the 5th Glorious Mystery was the Second Coming of Christ.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2012, 11:30:20 AM »

"Orthodoxification" is tricky business. When you try to make non-Orthodox things fit Orthodoxy somehow, you run into a serious issue in that you have something which may have begun as Orthodox, then was changed under the influence of heterodoxy and a different spirituality from Orthodoxy, and then you want to take that and make it Orthodox or, more probably, force it into an Orthodox interpretation, making the whole thing pretty esoteric.

Why not just do the 150 salutations minus the stuff that was added post-schism?

My mind has a tendency to wander, and calling to mind a new mystery at the start of each decade helps to keep me attentive. Also, recalling events in this sort of devotion is a great way to remember them. Catholics can tell you about Mary's coronation because of the rosary, or how Jesus fell three times on his way to be crucified because of the Stations of the Cross. Even scriptural events, like Simon of Cyrene helping to carry the cross, I know mainly because of the Stations. And while the Presentation of Christ at the Temple may not be a Catholic holy day of obligation, they'll never forget it if they pray the rosary!

When I see an Orthodox form of something I found to be helpful as a Catholic, I do tend to get a little excited. Smiley I don't want to hold on to practices that may be "bad", but I also don't want to discard what is good.
Logged
quietmorning
QuietMorning
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,922


May my Dad's Memory be Eternal.


WWW
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2012, 11:43:50 AM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

http://quietmerciesdotcom.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/imagine-for-a-moment/

Sometimes it's all in how it is read.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 11:45:56 AM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
quietmorning
QuietMorning
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,922


May my Dad's Memory be Eternal.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2012, 12:45:09 PM »

**2nd Response+**

Another thing that a lot of protestants don't take into account is that Jesus IS GOD.  Therefore He MADE THE RULES - and He IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE - SINLESS.  

One of the rules He made was to Honor your Father and your Mother.  

To use this scripture in the way the protestants suggest is to humiliate His mother in public.  If my son did this to me in the same scenario - I would be publicly shamed - humiliated beyond belief.  

So this CANNOT be the meaning of this scripture.  He could not have used this scenario to disown His mother.  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 12:46:07 PM by quietmorning » Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2012, 08:49:16 PM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

It's not about diminishing the significance of the role of Mary (offering herself to be the means by which the Word became flesh) in the Word becoming flesh. It gives us the hope that by offering ourselves to God, we can become conformed to Christ and bear witness of Him to the world.

It's not about diminishing Mary's obedience, love, or lifelong devotion to God or the culmination of that being found in her being raised from the dead by her Son. It's about giving us hope that by our obedience, love, and lifelong devotion to God that we may be raised to glory by her Son when He returns.

It's not a sign of disrespect to His family, but a promise of hope that we can be adopted into His family.

Mary is the great example of how we are to love, honor, and obey God. She is the great example of how we are to bear Christ to the world. She is the great example of how we are to follow Christ to the cross and stay by his side when we must endure sorrow. She is the great example of one of us being raised from life to death and inheriting the eternal life that Christ offers us all in the age to come. There is nothing insignificant about this.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukranian catholic
Jurisdiction: Philadelphia
Posts: 503



« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2012, 08:58:39 PM »

Walter please research the prayer rule of the theotokos it by far pre-dates the rosery.
Logged
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2012, 09:31:50 PM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.
Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

This is shallow reasoning. What would such Protestants say about the following verse then?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”. (Matthew 7:21)

If we follow the faulty reasoning, we must conclude that calling Jesus "Lord" is not important or necessary!

Or about the following statement by John the Baptist?

Therefore produce fruit that proves your repentance, and don’t think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God can raise up children for Abraham from these stones!” (Matthew 8-9)

Yet Jesus said: “Today salvation has come to this household, because he too is a son of Abraham!” (Luke 19:9)




« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 09:32:36 PM by Theophilos78 » Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2012, 04:51:42 AM »

Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 04:54:04 AM by walter1234 » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,835


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2012, 05:01:55 AM »

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus.
"Woman" was a respectful way to address people in those languages. It doesn't imply insignificance or contempt.

Also, Jesus did what his mother asked him to do, if you finish the story.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Deborah
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Newbie Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 206


Never look back


« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2012, 05:21:28 AM »

Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

According to the Othodox Study Bible note on this verse:

Quote
Contrary to certain modern usages, Woman is a sacred title in Scripture, an address conveying deep respect and distinction (John 4:21, 8:10, 19:26, 20:13; compare to Genesis 2:23).  What does your concern have to do with Me? is more literally,"What is that to Me and to you?"  This answer is not a refusal of Mary's intercession, but a declaration that the time had not yet come for Christ to be revealed.

And:

...Jesus called Mary "woman" ...he is atually making a reference to Genesis 3:15 and Mary's role in our salvation (yes I said it, but biblically speaking, anyone can play a role in the salvation of others without negating Christ as savior) as the "woman" whose seed would bruise the serpent's head.
Logged

Live in South/East Auckland, Franklin or North Waikato regions of New Zealand? Interested in Orthodoxy? Need transport to an Orthodox Church? Want to meet others? Please send me a PM Smiley

"You have made us for yourself, Lord; and our hearts are restless until they rest in You" - St. Augustine
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,109



« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2012, 02:38:24 PM »

What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

You should read "Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ" particularly paragraphs 23-25.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #70 on: November 06, 2012, 03:38:20 PM »


John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

The Blessed Virgin certainly is "only a servant" of God. Her nature is the same as ours. Insomuch that she is a holy person, we can be every bit (albeit giving birth to Christ, such what makes her so beloved and unique).

That said, this passage certainly doesn't show that the Theotokos is insignificant. Though Christ says, "What as this to do with us? It is not yet my time." His Most Pure Mother does not address Christ directly again, she simply tells the servants "Do whatever he asks of you." and Jesus precedes, without question to His Mother's wish, to perform a miracle.

This passage shows us the power of the intercessions of the Mother of God, not her insignificance.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,507


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #71 on: November 06, 2012, 05:56:19 PM »


John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

The Blessed Virgin certainly is "only a servant" of God. Her nature is the same as ours. Insomuch that she is a holy person, we can be every bit (albeit giving birth to Christ, such what makes her so beloved and unique).

That said, this passage certainly doesn't show that the Theotokos is insignificant. Though Christ says, "What as this to do with us? It is not yet my time." His Most Pure Mother does not address Christ directly again, she simply tells the servants "Do whatever he asks of you." and Jesus precedes, without question to His Mother's wish, to perform a miracle.

This passage shows us the power of the intercessions of the Mother of God, not her insignificance.

The passage also expresses a fundamental, irrevocable truth: Even the Son of God listens to his mama!   laugh
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,901


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2012, 01:07:26 AM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?
We glorify Mary as Theotokos precisely because she did the will of our Father who is in heaven, and more faithfully than anyone else ever has or ever will in this world. "Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done to me according to your word."
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 01:08:04 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,555



« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2012, 10:13:13 AM »

Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother,Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

It is a term of endearment in Semitic languages. That we find being called woman to be a negative thing says a lot more about English-speakers than it does about Jesus' relation to his mother.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,018



« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2012, 03:25:13 PM »

Good to know.  Thanks for Reply No. 73.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2012, 08:41:15 AM »

Would Orthodox Christians call Virgin Mary as Mother of the world or Mother of all people , like Catholic Christians?
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2012, 10:46:03 AM »

Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother, Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

And then what did He go and do?

Just what she asked Him to do.  

Hell hath no fury like an ignored Jewish mother. Wink
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 10:46:22 AM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Eastern Mind
Hi! I'm Olaf and I like warm hugs!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Hopeful
Jurisdiction: Greece
Posts: 713



« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2012, 11:20:17 AM »

Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother, Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

And then what did He go and do?

Just what she asked Him to do.  

Hell hath no fury like an ignored Jewish mother. Wink

 laugh
Logged

"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2012, 03:05:35 PM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Deborah
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Newbie Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 206


Never look back


« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2012, 03:38:14 PM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.

Shanghaiski, in what way do you mean that Protestants don't accept the Incarnation?  Thanks.
Logged

Live in South/East Auckland, Franklin or North Waikato regions of New Zealand? Interested in Orthodoxy? Need transport to an Orthodox Church? Want to meet others? Please send me a PM Smiley

"You have made us for yourself, Lord; and our hearts are restless until they rest in You" - St. Augustine
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #80 on: December 26, 2012, 04:19:59 PM »

Would Orthodox Christians call Virgin Mary as Mother of the world or Mother of all people , like Catholic Christians?
Any comment?
Logged
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,507


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #81 on: December 26, 2012, 05:09:59 PM »

Quote
John 2:1-5
1On the third day a wedding took place in Cana of Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and

2 Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding as well.

3 When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother told Him, “They don’t have any wine.”
 
4 “What has this concern of yours to do with Me, (woman)?” Jesus asked. “My hour has not yet come.”
 
5 “Do whatever He tells you,” His mother told the servants


What has this concern of yours to do with Me, woman?”

John 2:4 is another scripture which Protestant use to challenge the role of Mary . Jesus called Virgin Mary as women rather than mother, Jesus even ask Virgin Mary not to intervene his works/ministry in the wedding. Thus,Virgin Mary is not significance in the ministries of Jesus. She is only a servant of God, like you and me.

How do Orthodox Christina understand and explain this Scripture, e.g John 2:4 ?

And then what did He go and do?

Just what she asked Him to do.  

Hell hath no fury like an ignored Jewish mother. Wink

Of course! As any good Jewish boy knows, listen to your mama!  laugh laugh laugh
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #82 on: December 26, 2012, 05:42:00 PM »

Would Orthodox Christians call Virgin Mary as Mother of the world or Mother of all people , like Catholic Christians?
Any comment?

Well, the Orthodox do call her the "Mother of all living" among other things (http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/ocrc/2009/06/st-mary-in-the-orthodox-church/) so that would presumably mean the same as "Mother of all people" or "Mother of the world".

What is your problem with those specific titles?
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,109



« Reply #83 on: December 26, 2012, 05:58:44 PM »

Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.

Shanghaiski, in what way do you mean that Protestants don't accept the Incarnation?  Thanks.

I wouldn't necessarily say that he "meant" that post.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic
Posts: 29,536



« Reply #84 on: December 26, 2012, 06:16:03 PM »

Some Protestants do sorta deny the incarnation, albeit unintentionally, when they go into the whole thing about "Mary is the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God!"
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #85 on: December 26, 2012, 07:02:36 PM »

Fr. Tom Hopko did a podcast a while back about how even individual Orthodox sort of deny the Incarnation by not fully appreciating what it means that God became man.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,969


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2012, 07:59:02 PM »

Quote
Matthew 12:46-50
46.While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47.Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48.But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49.And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50.For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is  my brother, and sister, and mother.



Many Protestant Christians argue that the role of Mary is not significant with the quoted Scriptures (e.g.Matthew12:46-50) . Do you have any comment on the above Scriptures?

Many Protestants, when probed under torture, reveal that they don't really accept the Incarnation, but believe that God simply appeared in the form of Jesus, for all intents and purposes.

Shanghaiski, in what way do you mean that Protestants don't accept the Incarnation?  Thanks.

Precisely in that many reject that the Mother of God is anyone special, as if Jesus was never born and raised by anyone. Or the rejection of icons. Implications, implications.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2012, 08:45:23 PM »

Fr. Tom Hopko did a podcast a while back about how even individual Orthodox sort of deny the Incarnation by not fully appreciating what it means that God became man.

To be fair, I think that's a concept that everyone has at least a little trouble wrapping their minds around!  Smiley
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,507


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #88 on: December 27, 2012, 02:20:01 AM »

Fr. Tom Hopko did a podcast a while back about how even individual Orthodox sort of deny the Incarnation by not fully appreciating what it means that God became man.

To be fair, I think that's a concept that everyone has at least a little trouble wrapping their minds around!  Smiley

We can never fully comprehend the mystery of the Incarnation, but we can, and do, believe it happened and proclaim its truth.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,109



« Reply #89 on: December 27, 2012, 08:10:32 AM »

Did any of you -- particularly those of you who are cradle Orthodox (or cradle Catholic) ever think it was alright to call Mary the Mother of the Trinity?

I did, for a short time in the 90s. I came to realize my error, not through direct correction (as I never discussed it with anyone) but by something Dr. Miravalle said in Mariology class: A Protestant had asked a Catholic "How can Mary be the Mother of the Father?" to which the Catholic replied "You've got to believe." I forget what Miravalle said after that, but that was when I realized that I was wrong in thinking it was alright to call Mary the Mother of the Trinity.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #90 on: December 27, 2012, 08:21:54 AM »

Did any of you -- particularly those of you who are cradle Orthodox (or cradle Catholic) ever think it was alright to call Mary the Mother of the Trinity?

No.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,011


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #91 on: December 27, 2012, 08:33:30 AM »

Did any of you -- particularly those of you who are cradle Orthodox (or cradle Catholic) ever think it was alright to call Mary the Mother of the Trinity?

No.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:33:36 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #92 on: December 27, 2012, 08:38:43 AM »

Would Orthodox Christians call Virgin Mary as Mother of the world or Mother of all people , like Catholic Christians?
Any comment?

Well, the Orthodox do call her the "Mother of all living" among other things (http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/ocrc/2009/06/st-mary-in-the-orthodox-church/) so that would presumably mean the same as "Mother of all people" or "Mother of the world".

What is your problem with those specific titles?
Jesus is God and king of king, so Mary is Mother of God and Mother of King,e.g.Queen.

But how these titles of Mary (e.g.Mother of all world , Mother of all people, Mother of all living) come from?

Is Mary also the mother of those who are not in Christ e.g .Non-Christians?( Since Mary is mother of ALL people/ALL living)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:40:20 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,011


Ceci n'est pas une pipe


« Reply #93 on: December 27, 2012, 08:42:03 AM »


Jesus is God and king of king, so Mary is Mother of God and Mother of King,e.g.Queen.

But how these titles of Mary (e.g.Mother of all world , Mother of all people, Mother of all living) come from?

Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” (John 19:27)

Is Mary also the mother of those who are not in Christ e.g .Non-Christians?( Since Mary is mother of ALL people/ALL living)

Now that's a good question.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 08:42:25 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

"Copiare il vero può essere una buona cosa, ma inventare il vero è meglio, molto meglio. "
-Giuseppe Verdi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 911


« Reply #94 on: December 27, 2012, 08:57:57 AM »

Mary is the first person who knows and believes in Christ.She is the first Christian and so all our spiritual mother.I think it is appropriate.

However , the title of Mother of ALL people and ALL Living seems incorrect. Because all people/All living also include those who do not believe in Christ. And this also means that Mary is the mother of those who are not in Christ,e.g. non-christians.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 09:25:10 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #95 on: December 27, 2012, 10:42:07 AM »

Mary is the first person who knows and believes in Christ.She is the first Christian and so all our spiritual mother.I think it is appropriate.

However , the title of Mother of ALL people and ALL Living seems incorrect. Because all people/All living also include those who do not believe in Christ. And this also means that Mary is the mother of those who are not in Christ,e.g. non-christians.

It's my understanding the The Theotokos is called the "Mother of the All the Living" because she is the Second Eve, as Christ is the Second Adam. Where Eve is tempted and disobeys, the Blessed Virgin is obedient and bears the savior of the world.

She becomes the Mother of All the Living by virtue of her fulfilling the role that Eve was given in the beginning, to be submitted completely to the will of God just as Christ is submitted to the will of God even onto death, and death on a cross.
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
Tags: Theotokos Incarnation 
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.298 seconds with 124 queries.