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kx9
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2012, 03:18:56 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
...and not one dead remains in a tomb... how does this prove that the saints are resurrected or risen? There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected. All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.


Quote
And what of Luke 9:26-27, Revelations 6:9-11, Hebrews 11:35-40, Matthew 27:52-54, and John 21:20-23?
Luke 9:26-27 : is about the future when Jesus returns. There will be believers who are physically alive at His return after the Great Tribulation.

Revelations 6:9-11 : These souls were slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. This could be referring to those believers who were killed during the Tribulation. Revelation is a very difficult book to interpret.

Hebrews 11:35-40 : Contains a good point. (however communication with the saints is unscriptural, Jesus is already there to intercede for us, then why the need to communicate with the saints?).

Matthew 27:52-54 : Another good point. (however communication with the saints is unscriptural, Jesus is already there to intercede for us, then why the need to communicate with the saints?).

John 21:20-23 : I suggest you please re-read that. In context. It doesn't sound relevant.

Quote
Further, you should understand that for the Orthodox Church, Tradition and Scripture are one and the same identical thing, they can't be divorced or separated, so our Tradition which includes our Synaxarium calendar of Saints' Days and also our writings like the Lives of the Saints are as Divinely inspired to us as the Holy Bible, they are just another page in the Book Smiley

I understand that, but that is one thing that is difficult to grasp, anyway do Catholics and Orthodox traditions the same Traditions since both Churches were taught by Christ?

Where do you get the idea that Tradition (of men) is equal to the Word of God?
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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2012, 03:22:20 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 03:23:04 AM by kx9 » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2012, 04:16:54 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Jesus is God.


Quote
If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.

This is not what I mean. Scripture says we can ask others to pray for us. But this does not mean they are mediators. They all are sinful humans just as we are.

2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, dear brothers and sisters, we ask you to pray for us. Pray that the Lord's message will spread rapidly and be honored wherever it goes, just as when it came to you.

Quote
St Ignatius of Antioch was martyred very early in the second century. He was a disciple of the Apostle and Evangelist John, and undoubtedly had contact with other Apostles as well. He wrote several letters in anticipation of his martyrdom. In his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes "Nothing should seem fitting to you apart from him, in whom I bear my bonds as spiritual pearls. May I rise again in them by your prayer, in which I may always participate so that I may be found in the lot apportioned to the Ephesian Christians, who have always agreed with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ." (emphasis added)

Note that this man, trained by the Apostles themselves, expected to participate in the prayers of those he was leaving behind. Are you prepared to say that St John and the others did a poor job of catechizing him? While there might not be a full exposition of prayer to the departed saints, it's clear that the concept is present in the teaching of the Apostles. Just because it wasn't written down by them doesn't make it less authoritative.

This looks like EO Tradition? Is it?

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2012, 04:22:08 AM »

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

Quote
We believe that the state of the reposed is different after Christ than it was before Christ. Before Christ, you are correct; people were dead, and only existed in some shadowy state, and to interact with them would be Necromancy.

After Christ loosed the bonds of Sheol and liberated all the dead, however, this is no longer the case. Now, AFTER Christ, that is, in the New Covenant, the holy are alive with Christ in a way they were not before. Even though a Christian must experience the event of death, a Christian is never dead or in the state of death.

For us, to deny that the saints are alive in the fullest sense of the word is to deny the Gospel itself.

Yes, I also agree with that.

Quote
The holy are entering already into the Coming Age and the Kingdom of Heaven, and through Christ's body, the Church, we may mystically interact with them.

May I ask if you have scripture to back up this statement?

All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.
Quote
This all happens in the Coming Age, and the Church can interact with the Coming Age because she enters into the Coming Age mystically.
May I ask if you have scripture to back up this statement?
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2012, 04:26:52 AM »

Holiness, theres a reason why Peter has a Halo and Judas doesn't.
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2012, 04:38:13 AM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.
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« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2012, 04:39:46 AM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.

Oh, can you show me a couple of examples? Please.

Tradition: Bible Canon, info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos...

tradition: Christmas carols, Easter eggs...
Are info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos accessible only by the Bishops and Presbyters of the EOC ?
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« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2012, 04:42:44 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough. I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.
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« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2012, 05:06:56 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.

My definition of Protestantism.

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.

Consensus patrum.

Are info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos accessible only by the Bishops and Presbyters of the EOC ?

Well, no. Everyone knows that and believes in that.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough.

No, it is not.

Quote
I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.

That message is not simple at all.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 05:07:16 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2012, 05:33:07 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough. I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.

So how do you know what is in the Bible in the first place without Tradition? There's no inspired table of contents to go off. If you throw out Tradition (and I'd note that contrary to you earlier assertion that Tradition is always quite separate from Scripture, we have St. Paul, in Scripture, exhorting us to hold to the Tradition whether delivered by epistle or word of mouth) you don't even have any basis on which to decide what is or is not in the Biblical canon, as evidenced by the fact that you appear to choose to exclude books that the Church has always held to be Scripture, apparently because they aren't to be found in the post- (and arguably anti-) Christian Masoretic text.

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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2012, 05:58:02 AM »

Kx9,  I only have a few small points to make. 

First, scripture, especially the bible you use, developed from Tradition, not the other way around.  The first books of the NT weren't written until decades after the Apostles began their ministry, so Tradition was taught.  Additionally, scripture itself states it can't contain everything, i.e., Tradition.

Second, the Saints are very much alive and we venerate them, but we don't worship or pray TO them.  We ask them to pray FOR us, to God, just like grandma.  We also pick a patron Saint.  Someone we are like or would like to emulate within our own character.  Mine is the one my mother named me after.  All we do is ask them to pray on our behalf.  Who better than someone already in the presence of Jesus?

Last, pay close attention to what these guys are saying.  Being part of a reformed Christianity makes it very difficult to fully understand what they are saying.  Trust me on this.  I used to be a Baptist youth pastor. 

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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2012, 07:08:11 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.

Quote
My definition of Protestantism.
Well... Everyone has a different opinion. Okay, I'll leave it at that.

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.
Quote
Consensus patrum.
First they have a Consensus, later some will fall into heresy.

They aren't infallible either, Tertullian and Origen fell into heresy.

Even though protestants reject Tradition, they share a biblical view of Jesus, the Trinity and many other biblical doctrines with RC's and EO's without the need to use Tradition (because it is the work of the Holy Spirit). On the other hand, the non-Christian cults also reject Tradition, but their teachings are completely heretical and cause damnation.

All I can say is that it is the work of the Holy Spirit. We cannot infallibly interpret each and every verse of the entire bible. Even some ECF's said baptism was necessary for salvation, but other ECF's said it was only necessary to believe.

An example : Tertullian and Polycarp

Tertullian (155 - 220), “When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'" (On Baptism, 12:1, A.D. 203).

Polycarp (69 - 150), "by grace ye are saved, not of works,' but by the will of God through Jesus Christ....If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, 'we shall also reign together with Him,' provided only we believe…” (Epistle to the Philippians, 1, 5, 8


Are info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos accessible only by the Bishops and Presbyters of the EOC ?

Quote
Well, no. Everyone knows that and believes in that.
I meant to ask if they are books? Interesting that these are not used by RC's AFAIK.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough.

Quote
No, it is not.

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Polycarp (69 - 150), "by grace ye are saved, not of works,' but by the will of God through Jesus Christ....If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, 'we shall also reign together with Him,' provided only we believe…” (Epistle to the Philippians, 1, 5, 8

Quote
I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.

Quote
That message is not simple at all.

Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 07:31:49 AM by kx9 » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2012, 07:21:44 AM »

Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?

Such a question cannot be answered definitely. Ever read the fragment when Jesus is being approached by a rich man? There is always something more you can do.
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« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2012, 07:22:08 AM »

Quote
Where do you get the idea that Tradition (of men) is equal to the Word of God?
 

This is important. They are not the traditions of men, they are the traditions of the Church, which is the Body of Christ. We believ that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2012, 07:55:55 AM »

Quote
Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?
I would ask you then the same question please. What is the method for salvation?

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« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2012, 08:32:08 AM »

Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?

Such a question cannot be answered definitely. Ever read the fragment when Jesus is being approached by a rich man? There is always something more you can do.
In addition, I would ask him which version of the bible Jesus, the Apostles, and the EFCs used.

This "traditions of men" is a tough hump to get over.  It took me awhile to realize Sola Scriptura was an impossible concept for hundreds of years and has led to over 2000 splits of Christianity all claiming they are right.  If anything, Sola Scriptura leads to traditions of men more than anything else as each person is open and allowed to create whatever dogma they wish.
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« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2012, 08:52:50 AM »

Quote
has led to over 2000 splits of Christianity all claiming they are right

Last time I checked,it was 40.000.
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« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2012, 09:20:07 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Jesus is God.


Quote
If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.

Quote
This is not what I mean. Scripture says we can ask others to pray for us. But this does not mean they are mediators. They all are sinful humans just as we are.

2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, dear brothers and sisters, we ask you to pray for us. Pray that the Lord's message will spread rapidly and be honored wherever it goes, just as when it came to you.
You don't need to quote Scripture. This passage was one of many to which I was referring. What is your definition of "mediator" anyway? Synonyms are "intercessor", "interceder".

All of the departed saints are human, too. They would quickly admit to their sinfulness.

Quote
Quote
St Ignatius of Antioch was martyred very early in the second century. He was a disciple of the Apostle and Evangelist John, and undoubtedly had contact with other Apostles as well. He wrote several letters in anticipation of his martyrdom. In his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes "Nothing should seem fitting to you apart from him, in whom I bear my bonds as spiritual pearls. May I rise again in them by your prayer, in which I may always participate so that I may be found in the lot apportioned to the Ephesian Christians, who have always agreed with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ." (emphasis added)

Note that this man, trained by the Apostles themselves, expected to participate in the prayers of those he was leaving behind. Are you prepared to say that St John and the others did a poor job of catechizing him? While there might not be a full exposition of prayer to the departed saints, it's clear that the concept is present in the teaching of the Apostles. Just because it wasn't written down by them doesn't make it less authoritative.

This looks like EO Tradition? Is it?

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.
Of course it's EO Tradition because it is historical just as the Scriptures themselves are EO Tradition. Antioch existed. St Ignatius existed. His letters are as credible and reliable as any documents that we have from that era. And quite frankly, I'd much more rely on the Early Church Fathers than on your opinions. That would be unwise. Can you point to an Early Church Father who supports your argument? Since you seem unaware of St Ignatius, it would appear that you know very little about the Church Fathers at all. (And no, I don't consider myself an expert - very much a novice.)

(I notice the quote tags are getting confused. I tried to fix some up, but working in the small window isn't easy.)
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« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2012, 11:20:10 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.
Yes, I used to be a Protestant myself. I used to say a lot of the same things you say here. I know from experience that many Protestants don't like to call themselves Protestant. But if you were to take a look at the history of your ideas, you would have no choice but to recognize that they're Protestant ideas.
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« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2012, 11:45:48 AM »

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has led to over 2000 splits of Christianity all claiming they are right

Last time I checked,it was 40.000.

As much as I admire your precision, I do think there are more than forty.























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« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2012, 01:26:52 PM »

Quote
Kx9,  I only have a few small points to make.  
Quote
First, scripture, especially the bible you use, developed from Tradition, not the other way around.
This may be correct, but unfortunately this can mean that Tradition is superior to the Word of God. Since it implies that Tradition gave "birth" to the Word of God.

Jesus sent his Apostles to preach the Gospel to all.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

This is what saves us. The Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. It was the Holy Spirit who inspired the disciples to write the NT.

Note that Jesus even rebuked the Pharisees for setting aside the Word of God in favor of their own Traditions.

Quote
 The first books of the NT weren't written until decades after the Apostles began their ministry, so Tradition was taught.  Additionally, scripture itself states it can't contain everything, i.e., Tradition.
Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel and all that He taught them.

And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

Quote
Second, the Saints are very much alive and we venerate them, but we don't worship or pray TO them. We ask them to pray FOR us, to God, just like grandma.  
I have stated that I don't see any problem with EO/RC's venerating saints (although I don't feel the need to practice it). The problem I see here is that the saints are not alive on this planet, hence contacting them (asking them to pray for us) is forbidden.

If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

And one more question : Is it optional for EO to ask the saints to pray for him/her? (Up to the individual's personal opinion)?

Quote
We also pick a patron Saint.  Someone we are like or would like to emulate within our own character.  Mine is the one my mother named me after.  All we do is ask them to pray on our behalf.  Who better than someone already in the presence of Jesus?
I don't get it.  Firstly how do you know that a particular saint is in heaven and standing next to Christ?

How does the Church judge whether someone is saved or not? How do we know the strength of the faith that they held in their hearts?
Quote
Last, pay close attention to what these guys are saying.  Being part of a reformed Christianity makes it very difficult to fully understand what they are saying.  Trust me on this.  I used to be a Baptist youth pastor.  
Yes, I'm paying attention well. Note that I finally agree with some EO posters on some points on this thread and a few others that I have started.

Note that I'm not in a protestant church. So I'm not "Reformed/Calvinist"
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« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2012, 01:31:52 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.
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« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2012, 01:37:41 PM »

Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel and all that He taught them.

Yes, orally, not using the KJV.

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

For example, what is the Bible.

Quote
I have stated that I don't see any problem with EO/RC's venerating saints (although I don't feel the need to practice it). The problem I see here is that the saints are not alive on this planet, hence contacting them (asking them to pray for us) is forbidden.

How could apostles see and hear dead Moses then?

Quote
And one more question : Is it optional for EO to ask the saints to pray for him/her? (Up to the individual's personal opinion)?

It is optional. It's not optional to believe they can do it.

Quote
I don't get it.  Firstly how do you know that a particular saint is in heaven and standing next to Christ?

How does the Church judge whether someone is saved or not? How do we know the strength of the faith that they held in their hearts?

Holy Spirit reveals that.
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« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2012, 01:38:03 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.

I know that the verse that supports your position is found only in the Second Canon. I'm still doing research on that. Have to get time for that.
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« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2012, 01:40:17 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.

I know that the verse that supports your position is found only in the Second Canon. I'm still doing research on that. Have to get time for that.

Your quote's a non-sequitur. Brothers and sisters doesn't exclusively refer to those alive, and even if it would it still wouldn't forbid prayer to the saints.
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« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2012, 01:47:19 PM »

Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel and all that He taught them.

Quote
Yes, orally, not using the KJV.
Yes, That's true, but which were the Traditions that were taught? Please be specific.

Additionally I'm not a KJV-Onlyist... I use a variety of Bible versions including a Catholic version as well.

I believe that what Jesus taught... the same was later written down... and that became the NT.

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?
Quote
For example, what is the Bible.
The Word of God, written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I have stated that I don't see any problem with EO/RC's venerating saints (although I don't feel the need to practice it). The problem I see here is that the saints are not alive on this planet, hence contacting them (asking them to pray for us) is forbidden.
Quote
How could apostles see and hear dead Moses then?
Umm... could you post the verses which say that?

Quote
And one more question : Is it optional for EO to ask the saints to pray for him/her? (Up to the individual's personal opinion)?

Quote
It is optional. It's not optional to believe they can do it.
Do you mean that it is compulsory to believe that the saints can truly hear our prayers?

Quote
I don't get it.  Firstly how do you know that a particular saint is in heaven and standing next to Christ?

How does the Church judge whether someone is saved or not? How do we know the strength of the faith that they held in their hearts?
Quote
Holy Spirit reveals that.
Fine, then...
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« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2012, 01:55:02 PM »

I believe that what Jesus taught... the same was later written down... and that became the NT.

All what Jesus taught?

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

All what the Orthodox Church believes.

Quote
Umm... could you post the verses which say that?

Here:
 
And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. And Peter answered, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, I will make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

Looks like you do not follow the Bible with your beliefs.

Quote
Do you mean that it is compulsory to believe that the saints can truly hear our prayers?

Yes.
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« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2012, 01:57:52 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.

I know that the verse that supports your position is found only in the Second Canon. I'm still doing research on that. Have to get time for that.

Your quote's a non-sequiturs. Brothers and sisters doesn't exclusively refer to those alive, and even if it would it still wouldn't forbid prayer to the saints.
The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

Am I permitted to post a link here to another Christian website concerning this? Will it violate the forum rules?
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« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2012, 02:00:49 PM »

The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

That means you are creating your own tradition.

emphasis mine

Quote
Am I permitted to post a link here to another Christian website concerning this? Will it violate the forum rules?

Yes, provided it will be followed with a short description what is in there.
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« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2012, 02:27:39 PM »

I believe that what Jesus taught... the same was later written down... and that became the NT.

Quote
All what Jesus taught?

John 14:26 >>
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

Quote
All what the Orthodox Church believes.


The Orthodox Church believes that it is the Church established by Jesus 2000 years ago, and the Bible and Traditions were completed before the Great Schism of 1054, hence accordingly the Roman Catholic Church should have also shared these : Bible Canon, info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos...

The Bible Canon is the only thing that is shared by both the EOC and the RCC. But the others [info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos] are not shared and are exclusive to the EOC.

The EOC and the RCC were both originally taught by Christ, so they should have shared exactly the same Traditions, but they do not.


Quote
Umm... could you post the verses which say that?
Quote
And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. And Peter answered, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, I will make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

Quote
Looks like you do not follow the Bible with your beliefs.

I thought you were referring to something else other than the Transfiguration and got confused.

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.
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« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2012, 02:29:57 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.
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« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2012, 02:54:08 PM »

The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

Quote
That means you are creating your own tradition.
I don't think so. We read it straight, we understand the meaning (through the Holy Spirit). It isn't wise to insert presuppositions into the scriptures to support a particular position.

When people who deny that Jesus is God, read verses that show Jesus's deity, they try to read it in a different way instead of reading and understanding what the text says straight in order to fit their beliefs.

Quote
Am I permitted to post a link here to another Christian website concerning this? Will it violate the forum rules?

Quote
Yes, provided it will be followed with a short description what is in there.
Okay, here it is :

http://carm.org/praying-saints-biblical

Description : This paper was written in a response to the Roman Catholic Church's position that it's biblical to pray to the saints. Since the EOC also agrees with the RCC on that, I felt it would be better to hear what an EO says in response to that paper.
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« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2012, 02:59:47 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
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« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2012, 03:04:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.



Excuse me but did you just call us wicked and evil people while questioning the integrity of our Faith?   Roll Eyes

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2012, 03:08:27 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
Moses is a saint. If it is allowed for one saint,, it is only logical to conclude that it is allowed for all saints. Besides, we have an uncountable number of accounts, where saints have revealed themselves to people. By denying the intercession of the saint would be like rejecting the idea of having church buildings, because they aren't mentioned in the NT.
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« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2012, 03:15:04 PM »

Quote
Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?
I would ask you then the same question please. What is the method for salvation?

PP
1 Cor. 15:1-4,
Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

The Bible makes it clear that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law through many verses.

    Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
    Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
    Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
    Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
    Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
    Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
    Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
    Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
    Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
    Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
    Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
    Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."


But faith without works is dead as per James 2:24 in which he is saying that faith without works is a "dead faith". It is a true saving faith alone that saves a person and yields good works.

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?
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« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2012, 03:27:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.



Excuse me but did you just call us wicked and evil people while questioning the integrity of our Faith?   Roll Eyes

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Nope, that was a quote from Scripture. I hope you were joking! Smiley

In fact, I hold the EOC highly as a very sound and biblical church.
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« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2012, 03:39:14 PM »

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?

You're only fully 'saved' after your repose. So no, it's a little late to do good works after you're saved.

(not sure about this one)
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« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2012, 03:40:13 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
Quote
Moses is a saint. If it is allowed for one saint,, it is only logical to conclude that it is allowed for all saints.
Pardon, but during the Transfiguration or even after it, they didn't "communicate" to him at all. Not even directly. This isn't recorded in Scriptures. So it isn't important to try and push the fact that the saints can hear our prayers.

Denying this doctrine doesn't affect our salvation, then why cling to it?


Quote
Besides, we have an uncountable number of accounts, where saints have revealed themselves to people.
It is important to note the message that the saint brought to that person. Give me some links regarding that to read. I need to know the various messages.
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« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2012, 03:46:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.



Excuse me but did you just call us wicked and evil people while questioning the integrity of our Faith?   Roll Eyes

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Nope, that was a quote from Scripture. I hope you were joking! Smiley

In fact, I hold the EOC highly as a very sound and biblical church.

Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us.  We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"  Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2012, 03:50:00 PM »

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?

You're only fully 'saved' after your repose. So no, it's a little late to do good works after you're saved.

(not sure about this one)
A person who has [true faith] in Jesus is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So he/she will do good works. "Little late to do good works" doesn't fit anywhere there.
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« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2012, 03:50:43 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
Quote
Moses is a saint. If it is allowed for one saint,, it is only logical to conclude that it is allowed for all saints.
Pardon, but during the Transfiguration or even after it, they didn't "communicate" to him at all. Not even directly. This isn't recorded in Scriptures. So it isn't important to try and push the fact that the saints can hear our prayers.

Denying this doctrine doesn't affect our salvation, then why cling to it?


Quote
Besides, we have an uncountable number of accounts, where saints have revealed themselves to people.
It is important to note the message that the saint brought to that person. Give me some links regarding that to read. I need to know the various messages.
But he was revealed to them. It would only be natural to assume that they can talk to us when they can show themselves to us.
And denying the intercession of the saints will, according to the Orthodox Church, be regarded as a great error.

I have already posted one story about the meeting between saint Euphemia and Elder Paisios, but here is one more:

http://orthodoxwayoflife.tumblr.com/post/32192618900/i-am-your-love-dont-be-afraid-dont-doubt-my

I would also recommend this website which contains numerous accounts of the miracles and intercession performed by the saints.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/
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« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2012, 03:53:53 PM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.

Your statement is monophysite. Jesus Christ is a real man.
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« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2012, 03:54:18 PM »

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?

You're only fully 'saved' after your repose. So no, it's a little late to do good works after you're saved.

(not sure about this one)
A person who has [true faith] in Jesus is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So he/she will do good works. "Little late to do good works" doesn't fit anywhere there.
But we believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, a person who is teaching what is contrary to the faith of the Church cannot be fully true.

Quote
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:8
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« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2012, 03:59:51 PM »

Pardon, but during the Transfiguration or even after it, they didn't "communicate" to him at all. Not even directly. This isn't recorded in Scriptures. So it isn't important to try and push the fact that the saints can hear our prayers.

Pardon, the Gospel says they "talked with Christ" that means the Apostles heard them.
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