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Author Topic: The Halo in images  (Read 3832 times) Average Rating: 0
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kx9
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« on: September 22, 2012, 10:17:01 AM »

In religious images used in Eastern Orthodoxy, there is a halo around the person's head.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, what does the Halo mean or what is its purpose? Please be fully clear and specific.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 10:18:24 AM by kx9 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 10:44:42 AM »

Why not check wikipedia first? Read especially the third paragraph.
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 11:18:09 AM »

In religious images used in Eastern Orthodoxy, there is a halo around the person's head.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, what does the Halo mean or what is its purpose? Please be fully clear and specific.

Halo is a symbol for the power of God and Divinity. It is sort of like the Hebrew/Canaanite word "El" in visual form.

If someone has a halo, it indicates that person is Holy ("Holy" means set aside for the purposes of God, see Isaiah 45).

Christ is depicted with a special halo, containing the Greek transliteration of YHWH in it, to demonstrate that his Holiness originates from Himself as the Son of God.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 11:22:08 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 01:27:07 PM »

"God is wondrous in His saints."

The "halo" is really what the icon is all about. It is the uncreated light of God shining through the saint. The icon is a way of seeing the power of God manifest in the life of the saint.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 02:06:15 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 02:10:08 AM »


Christ is depicted with a special halo, containing the Greek transliteration of YHWH in it, to demonstrate that his Holiness originates from Himself as the Son of God.

At the top of all the forum's webpages, there is a image depicting, Jesus, Mary and the saints, with all of them having halos, But is that the Greek transliteration of YHWH in the halo around Jesus's head in that image?
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 02:35:04 AM »

At the top of all the forum's webpages, there is a image depicting, Jesus, Mary and the saints, with all of them having halos, But is that the Greek transliteration of YHWH in the halo around Jesus's head in that image?

Yes, it says "Ho Ôn", or "I AM".

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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 02:38:08 AM »

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 02:38:31 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 03:15:58 AM »

Were all Orthodox Roman emperors typically depicted with halos like this one?

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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 03:17:28 AM »

Were all Orthodox Roman emperors typically depicted with halos like this one?
Pretty much.
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Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 03:43:05 AM »

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
...and not one dead remains in a tomb... how does this prove that the saints are resurrected or risen? There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected. All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 03:53:20 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2012, 03:53:53 AM »

Quote
There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected.

From Matthew ch. 27:

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Also, Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ and conversed with Him on Mt Tabor at Christ's transfiguration.
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 04:02:56 AM »

Were all Orthodox Roman emperors typically depicted with halos like this one?
Pretty much.

Why is that? I wouldn't like to repeat that boring old argument about Orthodoxy and caesaropapism but...
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 07:35:29 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 07:45:56 AM »

Ever heard of Transfiguration?
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 09:25:23 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
Christ also called people that were alive dead. Like in the verse Matthew 8:22. In that case death doesn't correlate to physics.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 09:38:42 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.

You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.  Jesus is God.

Nobody prohibits you from praying to God directly.


You stated that to us those who have died, appear physically dead.  However, to God they are still alive.  Therefore, are they truly dead or alive?  My interpretation is that they are alive.

We, as mere humans, don't "see" or comprehend even a tenth of what truly is real, alive, and around every minute of our lives....it doesn't mean they aren't there.

Therefore, if they are alive to God, they must be alive and real.

We do not pray or worship the saints, we venerate them.  In other words, we show them respect....because they have run the race, crossed the finish line and won.  They have suffered as we have, they have been tempted as we are, they had aches and pains, they may have fallen in love, they may have had broken hearts, broken homes, broken families.....they went through what we now go through....and they persevered.  They show us that it IS possible for mere humans to achieve sainthood.  That even though many of them have been known to have sinned greatly, they repented, were forgiven and achieved greatness in the eyes of their Creator and mankind.  This bolsters us and gives us added incentive.

Again, we don't worship...we show respect.

They are our older brothers/sisters.....and we ask them for assistance.  We ask that they, on our behalf, petition God.  Sure, we can do it ourselves.....we can also pray for ourselves....but, why do we ask others to pray for us?  When someone is in the hospital, don't we form prayer circles?  Send up countless prayers for their healing?  We ask everyone to pray for the sick person?

Are we all not sick in some way?  This is why we ask for prayers.....even of the saints.  We ask them to pray for us.  There's no magic there.  They simply add their prayers to those of our friends and families.....and sometimes, God allows miracles to be performed through His saints. 

Many relics bring about healing of sickness, blindness, addiction, etc.  Is this the bones of a dead person healing a living?  No.  This is God working through this saint to bring healing to the living.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than we can imagine.

Glory to God for all things!
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2012, 09:40:31 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 09:57:36 AM »

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

You seem to have missed the fact that we Orthodox do not share your sola scripturalist premise. You can't convince us that we're wrong because 'it's not in Scripture' because (quite apart from the fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), as far as we're concerned the Reformers threw the baby out with the bath water in abandoning all Tradition in favour of individual interpretation. Effectively you're telling us that we're wrong because in your personal opinion Scripture teaches against it. But why should we accept your interpretation as more valid than the Tradition of the Church that gave us that Scripture in the first place? The fact is that the Church has venerated saints from the beginning.

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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2012, 12:55:51 PM »

Ever heard of Transfiguration?

Yes, I know about it. Okay, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? If not, why not?

In the Bible, there are two people who are mentioned being carried into heaven : Elijah and Enoch. These two never met death, but It has been declared that Elijah will return as one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:1-14. As Enoch didn't die too, he is probably the second candidate. They will then meet death at the hands of the Antichrist and then be resurrected (most likely with a glorified body like everyone else).

Moses died, yet it is not mentioned if both Elijah and Moses had a glorified body at the transfiguration (Jesus body was glorified only after His death and resurrection).

Again, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? And do EO pray to them? If not, why not?
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2012, 12:58:53 PM »

Ever heard of Transfiguration?

Yes, I know about it. Okay, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? If not, why not? [...] Again, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? And do EO pray to them? If not, why not?

Yes, of course they do.

In the Bible, there are two people who are mentioned being carried into heaven : Elijah and Enoch. These two never met death, but It has been declared that Elijah will return as one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:1-14. As Enoch didn't die too, he is probably the second candidate. They will then meet death at the hands of the Antichrist and then be resurrected (most likely with a glorified body like everyone else).

Perhaps, I don't speculate on that.




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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2012, 01:04:09 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
Christ also called people that were alive dead. Like in the verse Matthew 8:22. In that case death doesn't correlate to physics.

From the Scriptures it is clear that we can ask only those who are alive [physically] and standing on the face of this planet to pray for us. A good example is 2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you.
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2012, 01:06:21 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
Christ also called people that were alive dead. Like in the verse Matthew 8:22. In that case death doesn't correlate to physics.

From the Scriptures it is clear that we can ask only those who are alive [physically] and standing on the face of this planet to pray for us. A good example is 2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you.

That's a nice non-sequitur you have there.
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2012, 01:28:54 PM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Quote
Jesus is God.

True.

Quote
Nobody prohibits you from praying to God directly.

I know. But communicating with the dead (prayer or anything of that sort) isn't biblical. However I don't see any problem with venerating them (but again, this isn't biblical). I keep my eyes on Jesus alone for salvation.
Quote
You stated that to us those who have died, appear physically dead.  However, to God they are still alive.  Therefore, are they truly dead or alive?  My interpretation is that they are alive.
True, I also believe that. I have stated this in a previous post on this thread.


Quote
Therefore, if they are alive to God, they must be alive and real.
Yes, they are alive, but they aren't standing on this planet. They are physically dead, and communication with the [physically] dead is already forbidden.


Quote
We do not pray or worship the saints, we venerate them.  In other words, we show them respect....because they have run the race, crossed the finish line and won.  They have suffered as we have, they have been tempted as we are, they had aches and pains, they may have fallen in love, they may have had broken hearts, broken homes, broken families.....they went through what we now go through....and they persevered.  They show us that it IS possible for mere humans to achieve sainthood.  That even though many of them have been known to have sinned greatly, they repented, were forgiven and achieved greatness in the eyes of their Creator and mankind.  This bolsters us and gives us added incentive.
Okay.
Quote
Again, we don't worship...we show respect.

They are our older brothers/sisters.....and we ask them for assistance.  We ask that they, on our behalf, petition God.  Sure, we can do it ourselves.....we can also pray for ourselves....but, why do we ask others to pray for us?  When someone is in the hospital, don't we form prayer circles?  Send up countless prayers for their healing?  We ask everyone to pray for the sick person?

Are we all not sick in some way?  This is why we ask for prayers.....even of the saints.  We ask them to pray for us.  There's no magic there.  They simply add their prayers to those of our friends and families.....and sometimes, God allows miracles to be performed through His saints. 

Many relics bring about healing of sickness, blindness, addiction, etc.  Is this the bones of a dead person healing a living?  No.  This is God working through this saint to bring healing to the living.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than we can imagine.

Glory to God for all things!
All this is fine, but then why the practice of praying to them which the EOC shares with Roman Catholics?
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2012, 01:32:55 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

Quote
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2012, 01:39:21 PM »

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

You seem to have missed the fact that we Orthodox do not share your sola scripturalist premise. You can't convince us that we're wrong because 'it's not in Scripture' because (quite apart from the fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), as far as we're concerned the Reformers threw the baby out with the bath water in abandoning all Tradition in favour of individual interpretation. Effectively you're telling us that we're wrong because in your personal opinion Scripture teaches against it. But why should we accept your interpretation as more valid than the Tradition of the Church that gave us that Scripture in the first place?

James
I fully understand that Orthodoxy do not agree on Sola Scriptura. However I'm not [strongly] against Holy Tradition, rather I believe that it's okay to use Tradition, but I think it may be used to interpret Scripture, NOT to add doctrines which are not found in Scripture.

The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
The fact is that the Church has venerated saints from the beginning.
The New Testament Church put all their focus on teaching and preaching the Gospel. Never once did they suggest people to venerate the saints.
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2012, 01:42:26 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

The prophet Jeremiah, 2 Maccabees 15:14
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2012, 01:51:41 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

The books of Moses are Scripture, not Tradition.

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

Quote
The prophet Jeremiah, 2 Maccabees 15:14


The Jews never considered 2 Maccabees to be Scripture. Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

Romans 3:2
Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2012, 01:52:38 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

Quote
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

There are thousands of examples. Here is one I like. The meeting between Elder Paisios and Saint Euphemia:
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/09/saint-euphemias-conversation-with-elder.html
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2012, 01:57:36 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

The books of Moses are Scripture, not Tradition.

Yes, and no. Scripture is part of Tradition.

But why didn't Christ use other books besides the pentateuch to convince the Sadducees?


The Jews never considered 2 Maccabees to be Scripture. Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

That's not entirely true. Ever heard of the Septuagint? The Pharisees used the protestant OT canon, the Sadducees only the pentateuch and the diaspora jews (who were the majority of jews worldwide) used the wider canon which included the anagignoskomena.

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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2012, 01:59:09 PM »


Yes, I know about it. Okay, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? If not, why not? [...] Again, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? And do EO pray to them? If not, why not?
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Yes, of course they do.

Okay, fine.
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2012, 02:15:29 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

The books of Moses are Scripture, not Tradition.
Quote
Yes, and no. Scripture is part of Tradition.
That doesn't sound very convincing. The two are always distinct.

Matt. 15:2, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Matt. 15:3, "And He answered and said to them, “And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"
Matt. 15:6, "he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition."
Mark 7:3, "For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders."
Mark 7:5, "And the Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, 'Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?'"
Mark 7:8, "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
Mark 7:9, "He was also saying to them, “You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."
Mark 7:13, "thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."



Quote
But why didn't Christ use other books besides the pentateuch to convince the Sadducees?

Perhaps it was not needed in these cases.... Even when Christians debate non-Christian cultists (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals and others), they apply only certain verses of Scripture (as required) to refute their false teachings instead of applying this and that which won't work in the case they are handling.



The Jews never considered 2 Maccabees to be Scripture. Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

Quote
That's not entirely true. Ever heard of the Septuagint? The Pharisees used the protestant OT canon, the Sadducees only the pentateuch and the diaspora jews (who were the majority of jews worldwide) used the wider canon which included the anagignoskomena.

I know about the Septuagint, but I'll have to do more research on that entire statement first.
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2012, 02:52:35 PM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2012, 02:58:07 PM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.

Oh, can you show me a couple of examples? Please.
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2012, 03:02:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
...and not one dead remains in a tomb... how does this prove that the saints are resurrected or risen? There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected. All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.


And what of Luke 9:26-27, Revelations 6:9-11, Hebrews 11:35-40, Matthew 27:52-54, and John 21:20-23?

Further, you should understand that for the Orthodox Church, Tradition and Scripture are one and the same identical thing, they can't be divorced or separated, so our Tradition which includes our Synaxarium calendar of Saints' Days and also our writings like the Lives of the Saints are as Divinely inspired to us as the Holy Bible, they are just another page in the Book Smiley

Christ is depicted with a special halo, containing the Greek transliteration of YHWH in it, to demonstrate that his Holiness originates from Himself as the Son of God.

At the top of all the forum's webpages, there is a image depicting, Jesus, Mary and the saints, with all of them having halos, But is that the Greek transliteration of YHWH in the halo around Jesus's head in that image?

Yes, when Jesus boldly declared, "Before Abraham I AM" it was a Scriptural transliteration (in this instance three fold, from Hebrew to Greek in the Gospel to English for our translation here) of the YHWH, though in truth, not necessarily in the Yahwehist interpretations.  The Sacred Name has been evolving over the millenia, and what it meant to the Israelite audience of the Old Testament Scriptures and what it meant to the Jewish folks reading the Septuagint which is why the Gospel intentionally includes this reference.  It was a Jewish cultural thing that would have been completely obvious to any Scripture reading Jew in the 1st century.  They would have either outright dismissed it as blasphemy (as indeed the Jewish crowds responded this way to Jesus Himself in the text) or perhaps been forced to internalize this and reflect, how can this Man make such claims without being zapped by lightening?  I am not so sure that early incarnations of Judaism was quite as fundamentalist as the G-D movements about the Sacred Name, but the Church was not distanced from this, rather we embrace it.  Do we through it around sacrilegiously? No.  Is it necessarily part of the liturgical prayer life of the Church? Again, no.  However, it is indeed ever present in iconography and theology of the Orthodox Church, and we are not as wary of the Sacred Name in the same superstitious sense as contemporary Judaism is.  We are not so much afraid of the Name so much as reverent of its Divine Power.  Further, WHENEVER we refer to God, we are inherently referring to His Sacred Name, because that is His Name, so even if we substitute other proper nouns and pronouns God's name is still the Sacred Name.  It is the same way that if we say "God" we are implying the entirety of the Holy Trinity, just as anytime we read "God" in the Old Testament Scriptures in Greek or Hebrew the intention is plurality (i.e. the Trinity).  If we avoid boastfully using or abusing the Sacred Name, it should not suggest an almost superstitious taboo as is becoming the case in Judaism today.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2012, 03:40:00 PM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Jesus is God.
If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.

St Ignatius of Antioch was martyred very early in the second century. He was a disciple of the Apostle and Evangelist John, and undoubtedly had contact with other Apostles as well. He wrote several letters in anticipation of his martyrdom. In his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes "Nothing should seem fitting to you apart from him, in whom I bear my bonds as spiritual pearls. May I rise again in them by your prayer, in which I may always participate so that I may be found in the lot apportioned to the Ephesian Christians, who have always agreed with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ." (emphasis added)

Note that this man, trained by the Apostles themselves, expected to participate in the prayers of those he was leaving behind. Are you prepared to say that St John and the others did a poor job of catechizing him? While there might not be a full exposition of prayer to the departed saints, it's clear that the concept is present in the teaching of the Apostles. Just because it wasn't written down by them doesn't make it less authoritative.
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2012, 03:47:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.



Interestingly enough, whenever I am "witnessing" Orthodoxy to folks of a more Protestant persuasion I use this same analysis.  Folks generally say to me, "Listen, I can understand the Catholic/Orthodox Church, but what about Saint Mary and the Saints?" To that I reply, "Would you feel uncomfortable if I asked you to pray for me?" or phrased another way, "Would you feel uncomfortable asking your sweet grandmother to pray for you?"  Universally not a single Christian of any background has replied, "No."  To their response I then add that when we pray to Mary or the Saints, we are praying WITH them, not too them, and further, we asking them to pray for us to God, not as if they had their own inherent power.  Even the miracles of the Saints are merely a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, in fact, that is very much what the Halo itself in iconography symbolizes, the presence of the Holy Spirit.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2012, 04:47:32 PM »

You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.  Jesus is God.

Liza,

I know you did not mean to, but this is almost monophysite.

Jesus is a real human being. He receives his authority to judge and rule mankind as a man. He is a mediator between God and man precisely because he is God who became a real human being.

So the incarnation and atonement of Christ continually allow us to commune with God (the Father, who is most certainly meant here). He is the mediator between God and Man.
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.  Jesus is God.

Liza,

I know you did not mean to, but this is almost monophysite.

Jesus is a real human being. He receives his authority to judge and rule mankind as a man. He is a mediator between God and man precisely because he is God who became a real human being.

So the incarnation and atonement of Christ continually allow us to commune with God (the Father, who is most certainly meant here). He is the mediator between God and Man.

As a Miaphysite I agree Smiley

We read that verse in Hebrews to imply that through His human body Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and Man, not because He is lesser than God, but because He fully shares in our humanity, and through His human nature He mediates to the Divinity on our behalf, even if just through His existence as God-Man in His glorified Flesh.

stay blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2012, 04:55:28 PM »

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

We believe that the state of the reposed is different after Christ than it was before Christ. Before Christ, you are correct; people were dead, and only existed in some shadowy state, and to interact with them would be Necromancy.

After Christ loosed the bonds of Sheol and liberated all the dead, however, this is no longer the case. Now, AFTER Christ, that is, in the New Covenant, the holy are alive with Christ in a way they were not before. Even though a Christian must experience the event of death, a Christian is never dead or in the state of death.

For us, to deny that the saints are alive in the fullest sense of the word is to deny the Gospel itself.

The holy are entering already into the Coming Age and the Kingdom of Heaven, and through Christ's body, the Church, we may mystically interact with them.

All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.
This all happens in the Coming Age, and the Church can interact with the Coming Age because she enters into the Coming Age mystically.
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« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2012, 05:00:04 PM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."
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« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2012, 05:04:34 PM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.

Oh, can you show me a couple of examples? Please.

Tradition: Bible Canon, info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos...

tradition: Christmas carols, Easter eggs...
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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2012, 12:51:36 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2012, 01:01:43 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR!
Then why do you ask your friends to pray for you? According to your logic, they cannot mediate for you, either.

They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers.
Therefore, neither can your friends hear your prayers.

That has no biblical basis at all.
If you believe that asking your friends to pray for has a biblical basis, then you have to believe that asking the saints to pray for you has an equally biblical basis.

Quote
Jesus is God.

True.

Quote
Nobody prohibits you from praying to God directly.

I know. But communicating with the dead (prayer or anything of that sort) isn't biblical. However I don't see any problem with venerating them (but again, this isn't biblical). I keep my eyes on Jesus alone for salvation.
Quote
You stated that to us those who have died, appear physically dead.  However, to God they are still alive.  Therefore, are they truly dead or alive?  My interpretation is that they are alive.
True, I also believe that. I have stated this in a previous post on this thread.


Quote
Therefore, if they are alive to God, they must be alive and real.
Yes, they are alive, but they aren't standing on this planet. They are physically dead, and communication with the [physically] dead is already forbidden.


Quote
We do not pray or worship the saints, we venerate them.  In other words, we show them respect....because they have run the race, crossed the finish line and won.  They have suffered as we have, they have been tempted as we are, they had aches and pains, they may have fallen in love, they may have had broken hearts, broken homes, broken families.....they went through what we now go through....and they persevered.  They show us that it IS possible for mere humans to achieve sainthood.  That even though many of them have been known to have sinned greatly, they repented, were forgiven and achieved greatness in the eyes of their Creator and mankind.  This bolsters us and gives us added incentive.
Okay.
Quote
Again, we don't worship...we show respect.

They are our older brothers/sisters.....and we ask them for assistance.  We ask that they, on our behalf, petition God.  Sure, we can do it ourselves.....we can also pray for ourselves....but, why do we ask others to pray for us?  When someone is in the hospital, don't we form prayer circles?  Send up countless prayers for their healing?  We ask everyone to pray for the sick person?

Are we all not sick in some way?  This is why we ask for prayers.....even of the saints.  We ask them to pray for us.  There's no magic there.  They simply add their prayers to those of our friends and families.....and sometimes, God allows miracles to be performed through His saints. 

Many relics bring about healing of sickness, blindness, addiction, etc.  Is this the bones of a dead person healing a living?  No.  This is God working through this saint to bring healing to the living.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than we can imagine.

Glory to God for all things!
All this is fine, but then why the practice of praying to them which the EOC shares with Roman Catholics?
Asking our older brothers and sisters to pray for us... How is that wrong?
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