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Author Topic: The Halo in images  (Read 4406 times) Average Rating: 0
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kx9
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« on: September 22, 2012, 10:17:01 AM »

In religious images used in Eastern Orthodoxy, there is a halo around the person's head.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, what does the Halo mean or what is its purpose? Please be fully clear and specific.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 10:18:24 AM by kx9 » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 10:44:42 AM »

Why not check wikipedia first? Read especially the third paragraph.
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 11:18:09 AM »

In religious images used in Eastern Orthodoxy, there is a halo around the person's head.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, what does the Halo mean or what is its purpose? Please be fully clear and specific.

Halo is a symbol for the power of God and Divinity. It is sort of like the Hebrew/Canaanite word "El" in visual form.

If someone has a halo, it indicates that person is Holy ("Holy" means set aside for the purposes of God, see Isaiah 45).

Christ is depicted with a special halo, containing the Greek transliteration of YHWH in it, to demonstrate that his Holiness originates from Himself as the Son of God.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 11:22:08 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 01:27:07 PM »

"God is wondrous in His saints."

The "halo" is really what the icon is all about. It is the uncreated light of God shining through the saint. The icon is a way of seeing the power of God manifest in the life of the saint.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 02:06:15 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 02:10:08 AM »


Christ is depicted with a special halo, containing the Greek transliteration of YHWH in it, to demonstrate that his Holiness originates from Himself as the Son of God.

At the top of all the forum's webpages, there is a image depicting, Jesus, Mary and the saints, with all of them having halos, But is that the Greek transliteration of YHWH in the halo around Jesus's head in that image?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 02:10:29 AM by kx9 » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 02:35:04 AM »

At the top of all the forum's webpages, there is a image depicting, Jesus, Mary and the saints, with all of them having halos, But is that the Greek transliteration of YHWH in the halo around Jesus's head in that image?

Yes, it says "Ho Ôn", or "I AM".

« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 02:39:44 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 02:38:08 AM »

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 03:15:58 AM »

Were all Orthodox Roman emperors typically depicted with halos like this one?

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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 03:17:28 AM »

Were all Orthodox Roman emperors typically depicted with halos like this one?
Pretty much.
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 03:43:05 AM »

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
...and not one dead remains in a tomb... how does this prove that the saints are resurrected or risen? There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected. All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2012, 03:53:20 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2012, 03:53:53 AM »

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There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected.

From Matthew ch. 27:

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Also, Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ and conversed with Him on Mt Tabor at Christ's transfiguration.
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 04:02:56 AM »

Were all Orthodox Roman emperors typically depicted with halos like this one?
Pretty much.

Why is that? I wouldn't like to repeat that boring old argument about Orthodoxy and caesaropapism but...
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 07:35:29 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 07:45:56 AM »

Ever heard of Transfiguration?
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2012, 09:25:23 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
Christ also called people that were alive dead. Like in the verse Matthew 8:22. In that case death doesn't correlate to physics.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2012, 09:38:42 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.

You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.  Jesus is God.

Nobody prohibits you from praying to God directly.


You stated that to us those who have died, appear physically dead.  However, to God they are still alive.  Therefore, are they truly dead or alive?  My interpretation is that they are alive.

We, as mere humans, don't "see" or comprehend even a tenth of what truly is real, alive, and around every minute of our lives....it doesn't mean they aren't there.

Therefore, if they are alive to God, they must be alive and real.

We do not pray or worship the saints, we venerate them.  In other words, we show them respect....because they have run the race, crossed the finish line and won.  They have suffered as we have, they have been tempted as we are, they had aches and pains, they may have fallen in love, they may have had broken hearts, broken homes, broken families.....they went through what we now go through....and they persevered.  They show us that it IS possible for mere humans to achieve sainthood.  That even though many of them have been known to have sinned greatly, they repented, were forgiven and achieved greatness in the eyes of their Creator and mankind.  This bolsters us and gives us added incentive.

Again, we don't worship...we show respect.

They are our older brothers/sisters.....and we ask them for assistance.  We ask that they, on our behalf, petition God.  Sure, we can do it ourselves.....we can also pray for ourselves....but, why do we ask others to pray for us?  When someone is in the hospital, don't we form prayer circles?  Send up countless prayers for their healing?  We ask everyone to pray for the sick person?

Are we all not sick in some way?  This is why we ask for prayers.....even of the saints.  We ask them to pray for us.  There's no magic there.  They simply add their prayers to those of our friends and families.....and sometimes, God allows miracles to be performed through His saints. 

Many relics bring about healing of sickness, blindness, addiction, etc.  Is this the bones of a dead person healing a living?  No.  This is God working through this saint to bring healing to the living.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than we can imagine.

Glory to God for all things!
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2012, 09:40:31 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2012, 09:57:36 AM »

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

You seem to have missed the fact that we Orthodox do not share your sola scripturalist premise. You can't convince us that we're wrong because 'it's not in Scripture' because (quite apart from the fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), as far as we're concerned the Reformers threw the baby out with the bath water in abandoning all Tradition in favour of individual interpretation. Effectively you're telling us that we're wrong because in your personal opinion Scripture teaches against it. But why should we accept your interpretation as more valid than the Tradition of the Church that gave us that Scripture in the first place? The fact is that the Church has venerated saints from the beginning.

James
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2012, 12:55:51 PM »

Ever heard of Transfiguration?

Yes, I know about it. Okay, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? If not, why not?

In the Bible, there are two people who are mentioned being carried into heaven : Elijah and Enoch. These two never met death, but It has been declared that Elijah will return as one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:1-14. As Enoch didn't die too, he is probably the second candidate. They will then meet death at the hands of the Antichrist and then be resurrected (most likely with a glorified body like everyone else).

Moses died, yet it is not mentioned if both Elijah and Moses had a glorified body at the transfiguration (Jesus body was glorified only after His death and resurrection).

Again, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? And do EO pray to them? If not, why not?
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2012, 12:58:53 PM »

Ever heard of Transfiguration?

Yes, I know about it. Okay, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? If not, why not? [...] Again, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? And do EO pray to them? If not, why not?

Yes, of course they do.

In the Bible, there are two people who are mentioned being carried into heaven : Elijah and Enoch. These two never met death, but It has been declared that Elijah will return as one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11:1-14. As Enoch didn't die too, he is probably the second candidate. They will then meet death at the hands of the Antichrist and then be resurrected (most likely with a glorified body like everyone else).

Perhaps, I don't speculate on that.




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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2012, 01:04:09 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
Christ also called people that were alive dead. Like in the verse Matthew 8:22. In that case death doesn't correlate to physics.

From the Scriptures it is clear that we can ask only those who are alive [physically] and standing on the face of this planet to pray for us. A good example is 2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you.
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2012, 01:06:21 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
Christ also called people that were alive dead. Like in the verse Matthew 8:22. In that case death doesn't correlate to physics.

From the Scriptures it is clear that we can ask only those who are alive [physically] and standing on the face of this planet to pray for us. A good example is 2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you.

That's a nice non-sequitur you have there.
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2012, 01:28:54 PM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Quote
Jesus is God.

True.

Quote
Nobody prohibits you from praying to God directly.

I know. But communicating with the dead (prayer or anything of that sort) isn't biblical. However I don't see any problem with venerating them (but again, this isn't biblical). I keep my eyes on Jesus alone for salvation.
Quote
You stated that to us those who have died, appear physically dead.  However, to God they are still alive.  Therefore, are they truly dead or alive?  My interpretation is that they are alive.
True, I also believe that. I have stated this in a previous post on this thread.


Quote
Therefore, if they are alive to God, they must be alive and real.
Yes, they are alive, but they aren't standing on this planet. They are physically dead, and communication with the [physically] dead is already forbidden.


Quote
We do not pray or worship the saints, we venerate them.  In other words, we show them respect....because they have run the race, crossed the finish line and won.  They have suffered as we have, they have been tempted as we are, they had aches and pains, they may have fallen in love, they may have had broken hearts, broken homes, broken families.....they went through what we now go through....and they persevered.  They show us that it IS possible for mere humans to achieve sainthood.  That even though many of them have been known to have sinned greatly, they repented, were forgiven and achieved greatness in the eyes of their Creator and mankind.  This bolsters us and gives us added incentive.
Okay.
Quote
Again, we don't worship...we show respect.

They are our older brothers/sisters.....and we ask them for assistance.  We ask that they, on our behalf, petition God.  Sure, we can do it ourselves.....we can also pray for ourselves....but, why do we ask others to pray for us?  When someone is in the hospital, don't we form prayer circles?  Send up countless prayers for their healing?  We ask everyone to pray for the sick person?

Are we all not sick in some way?  This is why we ask for prayers.....even of the saints.  We ask them to pray for us.  There's no magic there.  They simply add their prayers to those of our friends and families.....and sometimes, God allows miracles to be performed through His saints. 

Many relics bring about healing of sickness, blindness, addiction, etc.  Is this the bones of a dead person healing a living?  No.  This is God working through this saint to bring healing to the living.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than we can imagine.

Glory to God for all things!
All this is fine, but then why the practice of praying to them which the EOC shares with Roman Catholics?
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2012, 01:32:55 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

Quote
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2012, 01:39:21 PM »

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

You seem to have missed the fact that we Orthodox do not share your sola scripturalist premise. You can't convince us that we're wrong because 'it's not in Scripture' because (quite apart from the fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), as far as we're concerned the Reformers threw the baby out with the bath water in abandoning all Tradition in favour of individual interpretation. Effectively you're telling us that we're wrong because in your personal opinion Scripture teaches against it. But why should we accept your interpretation as more valid than the Tradition of the Church that gave us that Scripture in the first place?

James
I fully understand that Orthodoxy do not agree on Sola Scriptura. However I'm not [strongly] against Holy Tradition, rather I believe that it's okay to use Tradition, but I think it may be used to interpret Scripture, NOT to add doctrines which are not found in Scripture.

The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
The fact is that the Church has venerated saints from the beginning.
The New Testament Church put all their focus on teaching and preaching the Gospel. Never once did they suggest people to venerate the saints.
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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2012, 01:42:26 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

The prophet Jeremiah, 2 Maccabees 15:14
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2012, 01:51:41 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

The books of Moses are Scripture, not Tradition.

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

Quote
The prophet Jeremiah, 2 Maccabees 15:14


The Jews never considered 2 Maccabees to be Scripture. Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

Romans 3:2
Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2012, 01:52:38 PM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.

Quote
The saints communicate with us, why shouldn't we do the same?

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

There are thousands of examples. Here is one I like. The meeting between Elder Paisios and Saint Euphemia:
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/09/saint-euphemias-conversation-with-elder.html
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2012, 01:57:36 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

The books of Moses are Scripture, not Tradition.

Yes, and no. Scripture is part of Tradition.

But why didn't Christ use other books besides the pentateuch to convince the Sadducees?


The Jews never considered 2 Maccabees to be Scripture. Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

That's not entirely true. Ever heard of the Septuagint? The Pharisees used the protestant OT canon, the Sadducees only the pentateuch and the diaspora jews (who were the majority of jews worldwide) used the wider canon which included the anagignoskomena.

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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2012, 01:59:09 PM »


Yes, I know about it. Okay, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? If not, why not? [...] Again, in the EOC, do they have St: Elijah and St: Moses? And do EO pray to them? If not, why not?
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Yes, of course they do.

Okay, fine.
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2012, 02:15:29 PM »



The Jews also had their own tradtiions and Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, yet He never applied Tradition to defend His actions.

Quote
With the Sadducees he never used more than the books of Moses.

The books of Moses are Scripture, not Tradition.
Quote
Yes, and no. Scripture is part of Tradition.
That doesn't sound very convincing. The two are always distinct.

Matt. 15:2, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Matt. 15:3, "And He answered and said to them, “And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"
Matt. 15:6, "he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition."
Mark 7:3, "For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders."
Mark 7:5, "And the Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, 'Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?'"
Mark 7:8, "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
Mark 7:9, "He was also saying to them, “You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."
Mark 7:13, "thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."



Quote
But why didn't Christ use other books besides the pentateuch to convince the Sadducees?

Perhaps it was not needed in these cases.... Even when Christians debate non-Christian cultists (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals and others), they apply only certain verses of Scripture (as required) to refute their false teachings instead of applying this and that which won't work in the case they are handling.



The Jews never considered 2 Maccabees to be Scripture. Paul tells us that the Jews were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

Quote
That's not entirely true. Ever heard of the Septuagint? The Pharisees used the protestant OT canon, the Sadducees only the pentateuch and the diaspora jews (who were the majority of jews worldwide) used the wider canon which included the anagignoskomena.

I know about the Septuagint, but I'll have to do more research on that entire statement first.
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2012, 02:52:35 PM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2012, 02:58:07 PM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.

Oh, can you show me a couple of examples? Please.
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2012, 03:02:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
...and not one dead remains in a tomb... how does this prove that the saints are resurrected or risen? There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected. All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.


And what of Luke 9:26-27, Revelations 6:9-11, Hebrews 11:35-40, Matthew 27:52-54, and John 21:20-23?

Further, you should understand that for the Orthodox Church, Tradition and Scripture are one and the same identical thing, they can't be divorced or separated, so our Tradition which includes our Synaxarium calendar of Saints' Days and also our writings like the Lives of the Saints are as Divinely inspired to us as the Holy Bible, they are just another page in the Book Smiley

Christ is depicted with a special halo, containing the Greek transliteration of YHWH in it, to demonstrate that his Holiness originates from Himself as the Son of God.

At the top of all the forum's webpages, there is a image depicting, Jesus, Mary and the saints, with all of them having halos, But is that the Greek transliteration of YHWH in the halo around Jesus's head in that image?

Yes, when Jesus boldly declared, "Before Abraham I AM" it was a Scriptural transliteration (in this instance three fold, from Hebrew to Greek in the Gospel to English for our translation here) of the YHWH, though in truth, not necessarily in the Yahwehist interpretations.  The Sacred Name has been evolving over the millenia, and what it meant to the Israelite audience of the Old Testament Scriptures and what it meant to the Jewish folks reading the Septuagint which is why the Gospel intentionally includes this reference.  It was a Jewish cultural thing that would have been completely obvious to any Scripture reading Jew in the 1st century.  They would have either outright dismissed it as blasphemy (as indeed the Jewish crowds responded this way to Jesus Himself in the text) or perhaps been forced to internalize this and reflect, how can this Man make such claims without being zapped by lightening?  I am not so sure that early incarnations of Judaism was quite as fundamentalist as the G-D movements about the Sacred Name, but the Church was not distanced from this, rather we embrace it.  Do we through it around sacrilegiously? No.  Is it necessarily part of the liturgical prayer life of the Church? Again, no.  However, it is indeed ever present in iconography and theology of the Orthodox Church, and we are not as wary of the Sacred Name in the same superstitious sense as contemporary Judaism is.  We are not so much afraid of the Name so much as reverent of its Divine Power.  Further, WHENEVER we refer to God, we are inherently referring to His Sacred Name, because that is His Name, so even if we substitute other proper nouns and pronouns God's name is still the Sacred Name.  It is the same way that if we say "God" we are implying the entirety of the Holy Trinity, just as anytime we read "God" in the Old Testament Scriptures in Greek or Hebrew the intention is plurality (i.e. the Trinity).  If we avoid boastfully using or abusing the Sacred Name, it should not suggest an almost superstitious taboo as is becoming the case in Judaism today.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2012, 03:40:00 PM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Jesus is God.
If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.

St Ignatius of Antioch was martyred very early in the second century. He was a disciple of the Apostle and Evangelist John, and undoubtedly had contact with other Apostles as well. He wrote several letters in anticipation of his martyrdom. In his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes "Nothing should seem fitting to you apart from him, in whom I bear my bonds as spiritual pearls. May I rise again in them by your prayer, in which I may always participate so that I may be found in the lot apportioned to the Ephesian Christians, who have always agreed with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ." (emphasis added)

Note that this man, trained by the Apostles themselves, expected to participate in the prayers of those he was leaving behind. Are you prepared to say that St John and the others did a poor job of catechizing him? While there might not be a full exposition of prayer to the departed saints, it's clear that the concept is present in the teaching of the Apostles. Just because it wasn't written down by them doesn't make it less authoritative.
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2012, 03:47:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.



Interestingly enough, whenever I am "witnessing" Orthodoxy to folks of a more Protestant persuasion I use this same analysis.  Folks generally say to me, "Listen, I can understand the Catholic/Orthodox Church, but what about Saint Mary and the Saints?" To that I reply, "Would you feel uncomfortable if I asked you to pray for me?" or phrased another way, "Would you feel uncomfortable asking your sweet grandmother to pray for you?"  Universally not a single Christian of any background has replied, "No."  To their response I then add that when we pray to Mary or the Saints, we are praying WITH them, not too them, and further, we asking them to pray for us to God, not as if they had their own inherent power.  Even the miracles of the Saints are merely a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, in fact, that is very much what the Halo itself in iconography symbolizes, the presence of the Holy Spirit.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2012, 04:47:32 PM »

You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.  Jesus is God.

Liza,

I know you did not mean to, but this is almost monophysite.

Jesus is a real human being. He receives his authority to judge and rule mankind as a man. He is a mediator between God and man precisely because he is God who became a real human being.

So the incarnation and atonement of Christ continually allow us to commune with God (the Father, who is most certainly meant here). He is the mediator between God and Man.
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.  Jesus is God.

Liza,

I know you did not mean to, but this is almost monophysite.

Jesus is a real human being. He receives his authority to judge and rule mankind as a man. He is a mediator between God and man precisely because he is God who became a real human being.

So the incarnation and atonement of Christ continually allow us to commune with God (the Father, who is most certainly meant here). He is the mediator between God and Man.

As a Miaphysite I agree Smiley

We read that verse in Hebrews to imply that through His human body Jesus Christ is the mediator between God and Man, not because He is lesser than God, but because He fully shares in our humanity, and through His human nature He mediates to the Divinity on our behalf, even if just through His existence as God-Man in His glorified Flesh.

stay blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2012, 04:55:28 PM »

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

We believe that the state of the reposed is different after Christ than it was before Christ. Before Christ, you are correct; people were dead, and only existed in some shadowy state, and to interact with them would be Necromancy.

After Christ loosed the bonds of Sheol and liberated all the dead, however, this is no longer the case. Now, AFTER Christ, that is, in the New Covenant, the holy are alive with Christ in a way they were not before. Even though a Christian must experience the event of death, a Christian is never dead or in the state of death.

For us, to deny that the saints are alive in the fullest sense of the word is to deny the Gospel itself.

The holy are entering already into the Coming Age and the Kingdom of Heaven, and through Christ's body, the Church, we may mystically interact with them.

All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.
This all happens in the Coming Age, and the Church can interact with the Coming Age because she enters into the Coming Age mystically.
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« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2012, 05:00:04 PM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."
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« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2012, 05:04:34 PM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.

Oh, can you show me a couple of examples? Please.

Tradition: Bible Canon, info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos...

tradition: Christmas carols, Easter eggs...
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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2012, 12:51:36 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2012, 01:01:43 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR!
Then why do you ask your friends to pray for you? According to your logic, they cannot mediate for you, either.

They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers.
Therefore, neither can your friends hear your prayers.

That has no biblical basis at all.
If you believe that asking your friends to pray for has a biblical basis, then you have to believe that asking the saints to pray for you has an equally biblical basis.

Quote
Jesus is God.

True.

Quote
Nobody prohibits you from praying to God directly.

I know. But communicating with the dead (prayer or anything of that sort) isn't biblical. However I don't see any problem with venerating them (but again, this isn't biblical). I keep my eyes on Jesus alone for salvation.
Quote
You stated that to us those who have died, appear physically dead.  However, to God they are still alive.  Therefore, are they truly dead or alive?  My interpretation is that they are alive.
True, I also believe that. I have stated this in a previous post on this thread.


Quote
Therefore, if they are alive to God, they must be alive and real.
Yes, they are alive, but they aren't standing on this planet. They are physically dead, and communication with the [physically] dead is already forbidden.


Quote
We do not pray or worship the saints, we venerate them.  In other words, we show them respect....because they have run the race, crossed the finish line and won.  They have suffered as we have, they have been tempted as we are, they had aches and pains, they may have fallen in love, they may have had broken hearts, broken homes, broken families.....they went through what we now go through....and they persevered.  They show us that it IS possible for mere humans to achieve sainthood.  That even though many of them have been known to have sinned greatly, they repented, were forgiven and achieved greatness in the eyes of their Creator and mankind.  This bolsters us and gives us added incentive.
Okay.
Quote
Again, we don't worship...we show respect.

They are our older brothers/sisters.....and we ask them for assistance.  We ask that they, on our behalf, petition God.  Sure, we can do it ourselves.....we can also pray for ourselves....but, why do we ask others to pray for us?  When someone is in the hospital, don't we form prayer circles?  Send up countless prayers for their healing?  We ask everyone to pray for the sick person?

Are we all not sick in some way?  This is why we ask for prayers.....even of the saints.  We ask them to pray for us.  There's no magic there.  They simply add their prayers to those of our friends and families.....and sometimes, God allows miracles to be performed through His saints. 

Many relics bring about healing of sickness, blindness, addiction, etc.  Is this the bones of a dead person healing a living?  No.  This is God working through this saint to bring healing to the living.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than we can imagine.

Glory to God for all things!
All this is fine, but then why the practice of praying to them which the EOC shares with Roman Catholics?
Asking our older brothers and sisters to pray for us... How is that wrong?
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2012, 03:18:56 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
You're right, communication with the dead is prohibited in the Scriptures.

But we don't believe the saints are dead.

"Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb."
...and not one dead remains in a tomb... how does this prove that the saints are resurrected or risen? There is no evidence in Scripture that the saints are risen/resurrected. All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.


Quote
And what of Luke 9:26-27, Revelations 6:9-11, Hebrews 11:35-40, Matthew 27:52-54, and John 21:20-23?
Luke 9:26-27 : is about the future when Jesus returns. There will be believers who are physically alive at His return after the Great Tribulation.

Revelations 6:9-11 : These souls were slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. This could be referring to those believers who were killed during the Tribulation. Revelation is a very difficult book to interpret.

Hebrews 11:35-40 : Contains a good point. (however communication with the saints is unscriptural, Jesus is already there to intercede for us, then why the need to communicate with the saints?).

Matthew 27:52-54 : Another good point. (however communication with the saints is unscriptural, Jesus is already there to intercede for us, then why the need to communicate with the saints?).

John 21:20-23 : I suggest you please re-read that. In context. It doesn't sound relevant.

Quote
Further, you should understand that for the Orthodox Church, Tradition and Scripture are one and the same identical thing, they can't be divorced or separated, so our Tradition which includes our Synaxarium calendar of Saints' Days and also our writings like the Lives of the Saints are as Divinely inspired to us as the Holy Bible, they are just another page in the Book Smiley

I understand that, but that is one thing that is difficult to grasp, anyway do Catholics and Orthodox traditions the same Traditions since both Churches were taught by Christ?

Where do you get the idea that Tradition (of men) is equal to the Word of God?
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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2012, 03:22:20 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2012, 04:16:54 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Jesus is God.


Quote
If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.

This is not what I mean. Scripture says we can ask others to pray for us. But this does not mean they are mediators. They all are sinful humans just as we are.

2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, dear brothers and sisters, we ask you to pray for us. Pray that the Lord's message will spread rapidly and be honored wherever it goes, just as when it came to you.

Quote
St Ignatius of Antioch was martyred very early in the second century. He was a disciple of the Apostle and Evangelist John, and undoubtedly had contact with other Apostles as well. He wrote several letters in anticipation of his martyrdom. In his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes "Nothing should seem fitting to you apart from him, in whom I bear my bonds as spiritual pearls. May I rise again in them by your prayer, in which I may always participate so that I may be found in the lot apportioned to the Ephesian Christians, who have always agreed with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ." (emphasis added)

Note that this man, trained by the Apostles themselves, expected to participate in the prayers of those he was leaving behind. Are you prepared to say that St John and the others did a poor job of catechizing him? While there might not be a full exposition of prayer to the departed saints, it's clear that the concept is present in the teaching of the Apostles. Just because it wasn't written down by them doesn't make it less authoritative.

This looks like EO Tradition? Is it?

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2012, 04:22:08 AM »

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

Quote
We believe that the state of the reposed is different after Christ than it was before Christ. Before Christ, you are correct; people were dead, and only existed in some shadowy state, and to interact with them would be Necromancy.

After Christ loosed the bonds of Sheol and liberated all the dead, however, this is no longer the case. Now, AFTER Christ, that is, in the New Covenant, the holy are alive with Christ in a way they were not before. Even though a Christian must experience the event of death, a Christian is never dead or in the state of death.

For us, to deny that the saints are alive in the fullest sense of the word is to deny the Gospel itself.

Yes, I also agree with that.

Quote
The holy are entering already into the Coming Age and the Kingdom of Heaven, and through Christ's body, the Church, we may mystically interact with them.

May I ask if you have scripture to back up this statement?

All will be resurrected bodily only when Christ returns, and that is yet to happen in the future.
Quote
This all happens in the Coming Age, and the Church can interact with the Coming Age because she enters into the Coming Age mystically.
May I ask if you have scripture to back up this statement?
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2012, 04:26:52 AM »

Holiness, theres a reason why Peter has a Halo and Judas doesn't.
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2012, 04:38:13 AM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.
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« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2012, 04:39:46 AM »

There's a huge difference between capital-letter T Tradition and traditions.

Oh, can you show me a couple of examples? Please.

Tradition: Bible Canon, info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos...

tradition: Christmas carols, Easter eggs...
Are info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos accessible only by the Bishops and Presbyters of the EOC ?
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« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2012, 04:42:44 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough. I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.
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« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2012, 05:06:56 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.

My definition of Protestantism.

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.

Consensus patrum.

Are info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos accessible only by the Bishops and Presbyters of the EOC ?

Well, no. Everyone knows that and believes in that.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough.

No, it is not.

Quote
I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.

That message is not simple at all.
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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2012, 05:33:07 AM »

But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

To a human being, a dead person is "dead"

To God, a dead person is "alive" (i.e the soul remains alive eternally).

Overall, scripture says not to communicate with the dead. This means [physically] dead people.

Please show where Israelites (under the old covenant) prayed to Moses, Noah, Abraham and others who were saved. They never did, because communication with the [physically] dead is forbidden.

The same is applicable under the New Covenant because there is no verse in which the Christians under the New Covenant prayed to the dead either.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough. I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.

So how do you know what is in the Bible in the first place without Tradition? There's no inspired table of contents to go off. If you throw out Tradition (and I'd note that contrary to you earlier assertion that Tradition is always quite separate from Scripture, we have St. Paul, in Scripture, exhorting us to hold to the Tradition whether delivered by epistle or word of mouth) you don't even have any basis on which to decide what is or is not in the Biblical canon, as evidenced by the fact that you appear to choose to exclude books that the Church has always held to be Scripture, apparently because they aren't to be found in the post- (and arguably anti-) Christian Masoretic text.

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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2012, 05:58:02 AM »

Kx9,  I only have a few small points to make. 

First, scripture, especially the bible you use, developed from Tradition, not the other way around.  The first books of the NT weren't written until decades after the Apostles began their ministry, so Tradition was taught.  Additionally, scripture itself states it can't contain everything, i.e., Tradition.

Second, the Saints are very much alive and we venerate them, but we don't worship or pray TO them.  We ask them to pray FOR us, to God, just like grandma.  We also pick a patron Saint.  Someone we are like or would like to emulate within our own character.  Mine is the one my mother named me after.  All we do is ask them to pray on our behalf.  Who better than someone already in the presence of Jesus?

Last, pay close attention to what these guys are saying.  Being part of a reformed Christianity makes it very difficult to fully understand what they are saying.  Trust me on this.  I used to be a Baptist youth pastor. 

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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2012, 07:08:11 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.

Quote
My definition of Protestantism.
Well... Everyone has a different opinion. Okay, I'll leave it at that.

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.
Quote
Consensus patrum.
First they have a Consensus, later some will fall into heresy.

They aren't infallible either, Tertullian and Origen fell into heresy.

Even though protestants reject Tradition, they share a biblical view of Jesus, the Trinity and many other biblical doctrines with RC's and EO's without the need to use Tradition (because it is the work of the Holy Spirit). On the other hand, the non-Christian cults also reject Tradition, but their teachings are completely heretical and cause damnation.

All I can say is that it is the work of the Holy Spirit. We cannot infallibly interpret each and every verse of the entire bible. Even some ECF's said baptism was necessary for salvation, but other ECF's said it was only necessary to believe.

An example : Tertullian and Polycarp

Tertullian (155 - 220), “When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'" (On Baptism, 12:1, A.D. 203).

Polycarp (69 - 150), "by grace ye are saved, not of works,' but by the will of God through Jesus Christ....If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, 'we shall also reign together with Him,' provided only we believe…” (Epistle to the Philippians, 1, 5, 8


Are info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos accessible only by the Bishops and Presbyters of the EOC ?

Quote
Well, no. Everyone knows that and believes in that.
I meant to ask if they are books? Interesting that these are not used by RC's AFAIK.

Okay, but the Bible tells us what we need for Salvation. That alone is enough.

Quote
No, it is not.

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

Polycarp (69 - 150), "by grace ye are saved, not of works,' but by the will of God through Jesus Christ....If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, 'we shall also reign together with Him,' provided only we believe…” (Epistle to the Philippians, 1, 5, 8

Quote
I always felt that additional doctrines (not found in the Bible) sometimes made the simple message of the Gospel and salvation more complicated.

Quote
That message is not simple at all.

Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?
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« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2012, 07:21:44 AM »

Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?

Such a question cannot be answered definitely. Ever read the fragment when Jesus is being approached by a rich man? There is always something more you can do.
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« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2012, 07:22:08 AM »

Quote
Where do you get the idea that Tradition (of men) is equal to the Word of God?
 

This is important. They are not the traditions of men, they are the traditions of the Church, which is the Body of Christ. We believ that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2012, 07:55:55 AM »

Quote
Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?
I would ask you then the same question please. What is the method for salvation?

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« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2012, 08:32:08 AM »

Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?

Such a question cannot be answered definitely. Ever read the fragment when Jesus is being approached by a rich man? There is always something more you can do.
In addition, I would ask him which version of the bible Jesus, the Apostles, and the EFCs used.

This "traditions of men" is a tough hump to get over.  It took me awhile to realize Sola Scriptura was an impossible concept for hundreds of years and has led to over 2000 splits of Christianity all claiming they are right.  If anything, Sola Scriptura leads to traditions of men more than anything else as each person is open and allowed to create whatever dogma they wish.
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« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2012, 08:52:50 AM »

Quote
has led to over 2000 splits of Christianity all claiming they are right

Last time I checked,it was 40.000.
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« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2012, 09:20:07 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
Quote
You are mistaken here.  Jesus is not a mediator between God and Man.

He is a mediator. I was quoting 1 Timothy 2:5
   
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

The saints cannot mediate for us at all. since there is already ONE and only ONE MEDIATOR! They do not have the attributes of God, and therefore cannot hear our prayers. That has no biblical basis at all.

Jesus is God.


Quote
If you are going to be consistent in your statement here, you then must also prohibit your family, friends, pastor, etc. from praying for you, since they, too, are mediators. What I think you're doing is simply deciding whom you will and whom you won't ask to pray for you. Of course, that would contradict plenty of other passages in Scripture which urge us to pray for one another. So the idea of a single solitary mediator cannot be held as an absolute.

Quote
This is not what I mean. Scripture says we can ask others to pray for us. But this does not mean they are mediators. They all are sinful humans just as we are.

2 Thessalonians 3:1
Finally, dear brothers and sisters, we ask you to pray for us. Pray that the Lord's message will spread rapidly and be honored wherever it goes, just as when it came to you.
You don't need to quote Scripture. This passage was one of many to which I was referring. What is your definition of "mediator" anyway? Synonyms are "intercessor", "interceder".

All of the departed saints are human, too. They would quickly admit to their sinfulness.

Quote
Quote
St Ignatius of Antioch was martyred very early in the second century. He was a disciple of the Apostle and Evangelist John, and undoubtedly had contact with other Apostles as well. He wrote several letters in anticipation of his martyrdom. In his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes "Nothing should seem fitting to you apart from him, in whom I bear my bonds as spiritual pearls. May I rise again in them by your prayer, in which I may always participate so that I may be found in the lot apportioned to the Ephesian Christians, who have always agreed with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ." (emphasis added)

Note that this man, trained by the Apostles themselves, expected to participate in the prayers of those he was leaving behind. Are you prepared to say that St John and the others did a poor job of catechizing him? While there might not be a full exposition of prayer to the departed saints, it's clear that the concept is present in the teaching of the Apostles. Just because it wasn't written down by them doesn't make it less authoritative.

This looks like EO Tradition? Is it?

Note that the Early Church Fathers even had different opinions, so it may be unwise to rely too much on them.
Of course it's EO Tradition because it is historical just as the Scriptures themselves are EO Tradition. Antioch existed. St Ignatius existed. His letters are as credible and reliable as any documents that we have from that era. And quite frankly, I'd much more rely on the Early Church Fathers than on your opinions. That would be unwise. Can you point to an Early Church Father who supports your argument? Since you seem unaware of St Ignatius, it would appear that you know very little about the Church Fathers at all. (And no, I don't consider myself an expert - very much a novice.)

(I notice the quote tags are getting confused. I tried to fix some up, but working in the small window isn't easy.)
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« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2012, 11:20:10 AM »

Why has this thread been moved to the Protestant section?

I do not attend a protestant church. I'm simply a Christian who is a member of the Body of Christ which is comprised of all true believers regardless of denomination whether it is RC, EO, Protestant or anything else.
Yes, I used to be a Protestant myself. I used to say a lot of the same things you say here. I know from experience that many Protestants don't like to call themselves Protestant. But if you were to take a look at the history of your ideas, you would have no choice but to recognize that they're Protestant ideas.
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« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2012, 11:45:48 AM »

Quote
has led to over 2000 splits of Christianity all claiming they are right

Last time I checked,it was 40.000.

As much as I admire your precision, I do think there are more than forty.























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« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2012, 01:26:52 PM »

Quote
Kx9,  I only have a few small points to make.  
Quote
First, scripture, especially the bible you use, developed from Tradition, not the other way around.
This may be correct, but unfortunately this can mean that Tradition is superior to the Word of God. Since it implies that Tradition gave "birth" to the Word of God.

Jesus sent his Apostles to preach the Gospel to all.

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

This is what saves us. The Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. It was the Holy Spirit who inspired the disciples to write the NT.

Note that Jesus even rebuked the Pharisees for setting aside the Word of God in favor of their own Traditions.

Quote
 The first books of the NT weren't written until decades after the Apostles began their ministry, so Tradition was taught.  Additionally, scripture itself states it can't contain everything, i.e., Tradition.
Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel and all that He taught them.

And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

Quote
Second, the Saints are very much alive and we venerate them, but we don't worship or pray TO them. We ask them to pray FOR us, to God, just like grandma.  
I have stated that I don't see any problem with EO/RC's venerating saints (although I don't feel the need to practice it). The problem I see here is that the saints are not alive on this planet, hence contacting them (asking them to pray for us) is forbidden.

If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

And one more question : Is it optional for EO to ask the saints to pray for him/her? (Up to the individual's personal opinion)?

Quote
We also pick a patron Saint.  Someone we are like or would like to emulate within our own character.  Mine is the one my mother named me after.  All we do is ask them to pray on our behalf.  Who better than someone already in the presence of Jesus?
I don't get it.  Firstly how do you know that a particular saint is in heaven and standing next to Christ?

How does the Church judge whether someone is saved or not? How do we know the strength of the faith that they held in their hearts?
Quote
Last, pay close attention to what these guys are saying.  Being part of a reformed Christianity makes it very difficult to fully understand what they are saying.  Trust me on this.  I used to be a Baptist youth pastor.  
Yes, I'm paying attention well. Note that I finally agree with some EO posters on some points on this thread and a few others that I have started.

Note that I'm not in a protestant church. So I'm not "Reformed/Calvinist"
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« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2012, 01:31:52 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.
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« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2012, 01:37:41 PM »

Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel and all that He taught them.

Yes, orally, not using the KJV.

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

For example, what is the Bible.

Quote
I have stated that I don't see any problem with EO/RC's venerating saints (although I don't feel the need to practice it). The problem I see here is that the saints are not alive on this planet, hence contacting them (asking them to pray for us) is forbidden.

How could apostles see and hear dead Moses then?

Quote
And one more question : Is it optional for EO to ask the saints to pray for him/her? (Up to the individual's personal opinion)?

It is optional. It's not optional to believe they can do it.

Quote
I don't get it.  Firstly how do you know that a particular saint is in heaven and standing next to Christ?

How does the Church judge whether someone is saved or not? How do we know the strength of the faith that they held in their hearts?

Holy Spirit reveals that.
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« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2012, 01:38:03 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.

I know that the verse that supports your position is found only in the Second Canon. I'm still doing research on that. Have to get time for that.
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« Reply #69 on: September 25, 2012, 01:40:17 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.

I know that the verse that supports your position is found only in the Second Canon. I'm still doing research on that. Have to get time for that.

Your quote's a non-sequitur. Brothers and sisters doesn't exclusively refer to those alive, and even if it would it still wouldn't forbid prayer to the saints.
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« Reply #70 on: September 25, 2012, 01:47:19 PM »

Jesus sent his disciples to preach the Gospel and all that He taught them.

Quote
Yes, orally, not using the KJV.
Yes, That's true, but which were the Traditions that were taught? Please be specific.

Additionally I'm not a KJV-Onlyist... I use a variety of Bible versions including a Catholic version as well.

I believe that what Jesus taught... the same was later written down... and that became the NT.

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?
Quote
For example, what is the Bible.
The Word of God, written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I have stated that I don't see any problem with EO/RC's venerating saints (although I don't feel the need to practice it). The problem I see here is that the saints are not alive on this planet, hence contacting them (asking them to pray for us) is forbidden.
Quote
How could apostles see and hear dead Moses then?
Umm... could you post the verses which say that?

Quote
And one more question : Is it optional for EO to ask the saints to pray for him/her? (Up to the individual's personal opinion)?

Quote
It is optional. It's not optional to believe they can do it.
Do you mean that it is compulsory to believe that the saints can truly hear our prayers?

Quote
I don't get it.  Firstly how do you know that a particular saint is in heaven and standing next to Christ?

How does the Church judge whether someone is saved or not? How do we know the strength of the faith that they held in their hearts?
Quote
Holy Spirit reveals that.
Fine, then...
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« Reply #71 on: September 25, 2012, 01:55:02 PM »

I believe that what Jesus taught... the same was later written down... and that became the NT.

All what Jesus taught?

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

All what the Orthodox Church believes.

Quote
Umm... could you post the verses which say that?

Here:
 
And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. And Peter answered, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, I will make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

Looks like you do not follow the Bible with your beliefs.

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Do you mean that it is compulsory to believe that the saints can truly hear our prayers?

Yes.
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« Reply #72 on: September 25, 2012, 01:57:52 PM »


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.

I know that the verse that supports your position is found only in the Second Canon. I'm still doing research on that. Have to get time for that.

Your quote's a non-sequiturs. Brothers and sisters doesn't exclusively refer to those alive, and even if it would it still wouldn't forbid prayer to the saints.
The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

Am I permitted to post a link here to another Christian website concerning this? Will it violate the forum rules?
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« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2012, 02:00:49 PM »

The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

That means you are creating your own tradition.

emphasis mine

Quote
Am I permitted to post a link here to another Christian website concerning this? Will it violate the forum rules?

Yes, provided it will be followed with a short description what is in there.
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« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2012, 02:27:39 PM »

I believe that what Jesus taught... the same was later written down... and that became the NT.

Quote
All what Jesus taught?

John 14:26 >>
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Quote
And what was exactly taught by these Traditions that came prior to the Word of God?

Quote
All what the Orthodox Church believes.


The Orthodox Church believes that it is the Church established by Jesus 2000 years ago, and the Bible and Traditions were completed before the Great Schism of 1054, hence accordingly the Roman Catholic Church should have also shared these : Bible Canon, info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos...

The Bible Canon is the only thing that is shared by both the EOC and the RCC. But the others [info about Nativity of the Theotokos, The Entry of the Theotokos into the Temple, Dormition of the Theotokos] are not shared and are exclusive to the EOC.

The EOC and the RCC were both originally taught by Christ, so they should have shared exactly the same Traditions, but they do not.


Quote
Umm... could you post the verses which say that?
Quote
And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. And Peter answered, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, I will make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

Quote
Looks like you do not follow the Bible with your beliefs.

I thought you were referring to something else other than the Transfiguration and got confused.

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.
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« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2012, 02:29:57 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.
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« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2012, 02:54:08 PM »

The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

Quote
That means you are creating your own tradition.
I don't think so. We read it straight, we understand the meaning (through the Holy Spirit). It isn't wise to insert presuppositions into the scriptures to support a particular position.

When people who deny that Jesus is God, read verses that show Jesus's deity, they try to read it in a different way instead of reading and understanding what the text says straight in order to fit their beliefs.

Quote
Am I permitted to post a link here to another Christian website concerning this? Will it violate the forum rules?

Quote
Yes, provided it will be followed with a short description what is in there.
Okay, here it is :

http://carm.org/praying-saints-biblical

Description : This paper was written in a response to the Roman Catholic Church's position that it's biblical to pray to the saints. Since the EOC also agrees with the RCC on that, I felt it would be better to hear what an EO says in response to that paper.
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« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2012, 02:59:47 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
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« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2012, 03:04:05 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.



Excuse me but did you just call us wicked and evil people while questioning the integrity of our Faith?   Roll Eyes

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2012, 03:08:27 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
Moses is a saint. If it is allowed for one saint,, it is only logical to conclude that it is allowed for all saints. Besides, we have an uncountable number of accounts, where saints have revealed themselves to people. By denying the intercession of the saint would be like rejecting the idea of having church buildings, because they aren't mentioned in the NT.
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« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2012, 03:15:04 PM »

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Okay, so what all must we do to be saved? Can you please link me to the whole message needed for salvation?
I would ask you then the same question please. What is the method for salvation?

PP
1 Cor. 15:1-4,
Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

The Bible makes it clear that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law through many verses.

    Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
    Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
    Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
    Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
    Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
    Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
    Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
    Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
    Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
    Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
    Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
    Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."


But faith without works is dead as per James 2:24 in which he is saying that faith without works is a "dead faith". It is a true saving faith alone that saves a person and yields good works.

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?
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« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2012, 03:27:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.



Excuse me but did you just call us wicked and evil people while questioning the integrity of our Faith?   Roll Eyes

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Nope, that was a quote from Scripture. I hope you were joking! Smiley

In fact, I hold the EOC highly as a very sound and biblical church.
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« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2012, 03:39:14 PM »

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?

You're only fully 'saved' after your repose. So no, it's a little late to do good works after you're saved.

(not sure about this one)
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« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2012, 03:40:13 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
Quote
Moses is a saint. If it is allowed for one saint,, it is only logical to conclude that it is allowed for all saints.
Pardon, but during the Transfiguration or even after it, they didn't "communicate" to him at all. Not even directly. This isn't recorded in Scriptures. So it isn't important to try and push the fact that the saints can hear our prayers.

Denying this doctrine doesn't affect our salvation, then why cling to it?


Quote
Besides, we have an uncountable number of accounts, where saints have revealed themselves to people.
It is important to note the message that the saint brought to that person. Give me some links regarding that to read. I need to know the various messages.
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« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2012, 03:46:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




If one's grandma is alive, yes, we can ask her to pray for us, But once she's no more, quit that and ask someone else who is alive.

Support that with Scripture, please. And no, before you even try, praying to the saints is not necromancy.

2 Thessalonians 3

3 As for other matters, brothers and sisters, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

That is the Scripture that supports my position.



Excuse me but did you just call us wicked and evil people while questioning the integrity of our Faith?   Roll Eyes

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Nope, that was a quote from Scripture. I hope you were joking! Smiley

In fact, I hold the EOC highly as a very sound and biblical church.

Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us.  We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"  Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2012, 03:50:00 PM »

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?

You're only fully 'saved' after your repose. So no, it's a little late to do good works after you're saved.

(not sure about this one)
A person who has [true faith] in Jesus is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So he/she will do good works. "Little late to do good works" doesn't fit anywhere there.
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« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2012, 03:50:43 PM »

Here the point is that they could see and hear the dead Moses because he was called down by Jesus during the Transfiguration.
That makes it an exception.

Christ allows that for all the Saints, not only for Moses. That makes it a rule.

Scripture, please...
Quote
Moses is a saint. If it is allowed for one saint,, it is only logical to conclude that it is allowed for all saints.
Pardon, but during the Transfiguration or even after it, they didn't "communicate" to him at all. Not even directly. This isn't recorded in Scriptures. So it isn't important to try and push the fact that the saints can hear our prayers.

Denying this doctrine doesn't affect our salvation, then why cling to it?


Quote
Besides, we have an uncountable number of accounts, where saints have revealed themselves to people.
It is important to note the message that the saint brought to that person. Give me some links regarding that to read. I need to know the various messages.
But he was revealed to them. It would only be natural to assume that they can talk to us when they can show themselves to us.
And denying the intercession of the saints will, according to the Orthodox Church, be regarded as a great error.

I have already posted one story about the meeting between saint Euphemia and Elder Paisios, but here is one more:

http://orthodoxwayoflife.tumblr.com/post/32192618900/i-am-your-love-dont-be-afraid-dont-doubt-my

I would also recommend this website which contains numerous accounts of the miracles and intercession performed by the saints.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/
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« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2012, 03:53:53 PM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.

Your statement is monophysite. Jesus Christ is a real man.
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« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2012, 03:54:18 PM »

Good works are not necessary for salvation. They are the RESULT of salvation. Does the EOC affirm this?

You're only fully 'saved' after your repose. So no, it's a little late to do good works after you're saved.

(not sure about this one)
A person who has [true faith] in Jesus is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. So he/she will do good works. "Little late to do good works" doesn't fit anywhere there.
But we believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, a person who is teaching what is contrary to the faith of the Church cannot be fully true.

Quote
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:8
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« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2012, 03:59:51 PM »

Pardon, but during the Transfiguration or even after it, they didn't "communicate" to him at all. Not even directly. This isn't recorded in Scriptures. So it isn't important to try and push the fact that the saints can hear our prayers.

Pardon, the Gospel says they "talked with Christ" that means the Apostles heard them.
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« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2012, 04:01:37 PM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.

Your statement is monophysite. Jesus Christ is a real man.

In another thread we called him a nestorian  Grin
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« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2012, 04:12:29 PM »

Quote
The holy are entering already into the Coming Age and the Kingdom of Heaven, and through Christ's body, the Church, we may mystically interact with them.

May I ask if you have scripture to back up this statement?

First off, please stop saying "Scripture" as if it is a singularity. There are only "Scriptures" (plural).

Second, I have a few examples. St. John mystically entered into the Age to Come in the Book of Revelation. That's what the entire book is about. In that book: "When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Which adds weight to the words of the Apostle:

"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ."

Also,

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

And,

"Amen I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Continuing:

"...the Word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints"

Furthermore:

"And he was saying, 'Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!' And He said to him, 'Amen I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

To add:

"Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished." and "Therefore when Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, 'Teteleste [it is accomplished]!' And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

Another from the Apostle:

"These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come."

And "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; he said, 'Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Finally, and most importantly:

"'Ye search the Scriptures, because ye think in them to have life eternal, and these are they that are testifying concerning me."

Before replying, remember that there is no Scriptural reading without a hermeneutical interpretation. Nobody interprets the Scriptures without a hermeneutic, whether they realize it or not. So you cannot say, "your reading is not the plain reading", because there is no plain reading, as there is no reading without a hermeneutic. Rather, you must set your hermeneutic against another hermeneutic, and make an apology for it.
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« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2012, 04:21:07 PM »

Quote
Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us.  We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"  Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.
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« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2012, 04:24:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us.  We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"  Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.


I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around.  That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what  you might say perfectly Scriptural.

Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful.  When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2012, 04:28:19 PM »

Can you please show me an example of a saint communicating from heaven to a physically living person?

"Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."

That is Jesus communicating with Saul, it's not a saint. It is God Himself.

Your statement is monophysite. Jesus Christ is a real man.
Wherever I'm referring to Jesus on this forum, must I write God/Man or God+Man?

When I say "God" in reference to Jesus anywhere, I'm saying in my heart that He is fully God and fully Man.

Please inquire a person's beliefs first, then decide whether he is a heretic or not in all his posts  Smiley

One more point. Several times in the scriptures, Jesus is mentioned as "man" or "God/Lord" individually. But still the scriptures aren't being monophysite.

Hope that clears things up Smiley
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« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2012, 04:32:09 PM »

Please inquire a person's beliefs first, then decide whether he is a heretic or not in all his posts  Smiley
Ah, but you said that Jesus is not a saint, implying this because he is God.

But he is a real human being and the quintessential saint.
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« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2012, 04:36:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us.  We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"  Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie


There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.


I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around.  That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what  you might say perfectly Scriptural.

Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful.  When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think this(especially the last part) might be to exaggerate a bit.
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« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2012, 04:44:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us.  We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"  Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.

Quote
I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around.  That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what  you might say perfectly Scriptural.
Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?


Quote
Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful.  When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate Sad

Sorry, but in the previous post, you asked me to [defend my position], so I happened to use the same sentence in my response. I had no intention of being disrespectful. If you still feel that I have been, then I give my sincerest apologies.
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« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2012, 04:48:27 PM »

Please inquire a person's beliefs first, then decide whether he is a heretic or not in all his posts  Smiley
Ah, but you said that Jesus is not a saint, implying this because he is God.

But he is a real human being and the quintessential saint.

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
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« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2012, 04:53:03 PM »

Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.

They do.

Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
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« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2012, 04:56:56 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

It was Protestants who separated the bundle in the first place, but in the Church there is no such distinction and we've never separated the two from each other, rather they are all just volumes of a mutual anthology called Tradition or the Canon.


Quote
Sorry, but in the previous post, you asked me to [defend my position], so I happened to use the same sentence in my response. I had no intention of being disrespectful. If you still feel that I have been, then I give my sincerest apologies.


You have the right to defend your position, but you should have realized exactly either what position you were defending or how it relates to Orthodox which is the context of where you are discussing this.  You also have my humblest of apologies if I myself have come across as curt or rude Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2012, 05:00:20 PM »


Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?

Might I gently suggest that you spend some time researching the history of the development of both the Old and New Testament Scriptures? The single book notion did not exist, to the best of my knowledge, until the invention of the printing press.

Even today, the Orthodox Church has separate volumes for the Gospel, the Epistles, the Psalms, etc. (Admittedly for convenience we will use a single volume edition). But for example, in the Divine Liturgy and some other services, the Gospel book will be brought in with great reverence.

Then there is the problem of exactly what constitutes what you refer to as the "First canon". Orthodox Christianity does not have a definitive list of the Old Testament Scriptures.

Not all Tradition is is written form. Icons form part of Tradition.

The Church is a living organism. Tradition is constantly developing. For example, hymns are being written to honour recently canonized saints (yes, hymnography is part of Tradition).

What is your experience with Orthodox Christianity (outside of the Internet, I mean)?

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« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2012, 06:17:08 PM »

The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

Quote
That means you are creating your own tradition.
I don't think so. We read it straight, we understand the meaning (through the Holy Spirit). It isn't wise to insert presuppositions into the scriptures to support a particular position.
But Protestants do that all the time.
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« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2012, 06:25:00 PM »

The verse doesn't make that distinction between the alive and the dead. But it is clear to me that the verse is concerning the alive only (as far as I can understand).

Quote
That means you are creating your own tradition.
I don't think so. We read it straight, we understand the meaning (through the Holy Spirit). It isn't wise to insert presuppositions into the scriptures to support a particular position.
But Protestants do that all the time.
And not just Protestants, PtA. We all approach these matters within some sort of framework, whether Orthodox, heterodox, or non-Christian. Choose your filter carefully  Wink.
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« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2012, 07:51:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Oh I am quite familiar with that Scripture, what confuses me is the context in which you quoted it to us.  We asked you to defend your position from Scripture for a prohibition against praying with or to the Saints, and that verse seemed ad hominem to suggest that if it supports your position, then we in the Church who are contrary to that position are the "wicked and evil people"  Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie

There isn't a specific verse that declares that praying to the saints is prohibited. But no one does it in the Bible, neither do I (as it is not necessary for salvation, it is not necessary as an important belief). So that's why I'm asking why it is so important to the Orthodox faith?

And that particular verse is referring to unbelievers who have not placed their faith in Jesus. I just used a part of the verse to defend my position. Nothing more.

Quote
I explained to you above, firstly and foremost, in the Orthodox Church the Tradition and the Bible are equally one and the same, and if anything, the Bible is a part of Tradition, not the other way around.  That being said, in our Tradition we have many writings discussing praying with the Saints, and to us then these are what  you might say perfectly Scriptural.
Okay, I see that we hold different beliefs and disagree. But can you then explain why Tradition is not bundled with Scripture (like the second canon which is bundled with the First canon) in a single book?


Quote
Again, your point is contrary to ours, your point is to say that we are wrong for praying with the Saints, and you are trying to Bible thump to do it! I am sorry, you can be polite about it, but your words are still disrespectful.  When you say, "defend my position" which is to say, you are arguing that those who pray to Saints do not have the same faith in Jesus, you are insulting us even more! So we are either the evil and wicked people you mentioned, or what is worse, we have no faith in Jesus, either way, that is inappropriate Sad

Sorry, but in the previous post, you asked me to [defend my position], so I happened to use the same sentence in my response. I had no intention of being disrespectful. If you still feel that I have been, then I give my sincerest apologies.

In reference to your first question about a book containing Tradition, how big of a book do you want to carry around?
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« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2012, 07:56:00 PM »

Quote
has led to over 2000 splits of Christianity all claiming they are right

Last time I checked,it was 40.000.
Thats a lot!
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« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2012, 08:14:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


In reference to your first question about a book containing Tradition, how big of a book do you want to carry around?



Does that fit into an iPhone app?

Oh wait.. that's right John 20:25 Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #107 on: September 26, 2012, 01:49:37 AM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.
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« Reply #108 on: September 26, 2012, 03:23:56 AM »

Please inquire a person's beliefs first, then decide whether he is a heretic or not in all his posts  Smiley
Ah, but you said that Jesus is not a saint, implying this because he is God.

But he is a real human being and the quintessential saint.

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.

What is the protestant denominational sola scripture church called that you attend?
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« Reply #109 on: September 26, 2012, 04:12:27 AM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Christ is not two persons  Huh
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« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2012, 04:19:16 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.

God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Everyone who is in Christ is not dead. This is why the Old Testament needs to be read in light of the New Testament. I know that Saints work in our lives because I believe that I personally had an experience with my patron St. Augustine like a year or two ago when my dad relapsed. I was really sad and I went to bed crying. In my sleep, I had a dream where I was sitting next to St. Augustine and he was comforting me while I cried telling me it would be okay.
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« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2012, 11:02:51 AM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Christ is not two persons  Huh
Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism gives Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC has given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.

I fail to understand why you (and maybe other EO) understand my posts differently than I intend them to be. When I made that statement, I never had the "two persons" idea in my mind.

I suggest that EO people reading my posts try to understand my viewpoints as I intended them to be. Thanks.
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« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2012, 11:04:06 AM »

Please inquire a person's beliefs first, then decide whether he is a heretic or not in all his posts  Smiley
Ah, but you said that Jesus is not a saint, implying this because he is God.

But he is a real human being and the quintessential saint.

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.

What is the protestant denominational sola scripture church called that you attend?
That's already stated in another thread.
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« Reply #113 on: September 26, 2012, 11:05:48 AM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.
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« Reply #114 on: September 26, 2012, 11:09:14 AM »

For you only are holy, only you are Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
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« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2012, 11:14:05 AM »

Okay, all three replies are fine, however, where did this doctrine of "praying to the saints" come from?

Jesus is the sole mediator between God and Man. I feel that praying to the saints (although I agree that they are not worshiped in the EOC), it means communication with the dead, which is prohibited in Scripture.
I believe that I personally had an experience with my patron St. Augustine like a year or two ago when my dad relapsed. I was really sad and I went to bed crying. In my sleep, I had a dream where I was sitting next to St. Augustine and he was comforting me while I cried telling me it would be okay.

When I was a Catholic, I never had experiences with Saints at all. However I had a "tremendous" conversion to Christ when the light of the Gospel was opened to my eyes.

May I ask a question : How did you identify that this particular saint was St. Augustine in your dream?
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« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2012, 11:14:56 AM »

For you only are holy, only you are Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Amen.

Which post of mine did you intend to quote?
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« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2012, 11:16:39 AM »

For you only are holy, only you are Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Amen.

Which post of mine did you intend to quote?

The abouve one.
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« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2012, 11:20:01 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


In reference to your first question about a book containing Tradition, how big of a book do you want to carry around?



Does that fit into an iPhone app?

Oh wait.. that's right John 20:25 Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I'll take that as a joke, (or is the EOC tradition actually that large?) with trillions of doctrines?


How about Matthew 11:28-30

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
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« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2012, 11:22:33 AM »

Obviously kx9 does not know that "saint" and "holy" are the same word in Greek (and probably Slavonic as well).
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« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2012, 11:25:45 AM »

I'll take that as a joke, (or is the EOC tradition actually that large?) with trillions of doctrines?

Ever heard of the Gospel of John?

You seem you haven't so google it and read the last sentence of it.
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« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2012, 11:45:57 AM »

I'll take that as a joke, (or is the EOC tradition actually that large?) with trillions of doctrines?

Ever heard of the Gospel of John?

You seem you haven't so google it and read the last sentence of it.

John 21:25 There are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they would all be written, I suppose that even the world itself wouldn’t have room for the books that would be written.

True, but nowhere does the Scriptures state that all these [trillion) doctrines are required for Salvation. The message of the Gospel was enough to convert me.

Matthew 11:28-30 truly describes the lighter burden and Jesus has Himself offered it to me, and I accepted it. Why should we ask for an even heavier burden of trillions of doctrines to follow, when He has given us all rest?
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« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2012, 12:00:00 PM »

Obviously kx9 does not know that "saint" and "holy" are the same word in Greek (and probably Slavonic as well).

Yes, I did not know. Neither do the Catholics and Protestants, that's why we never call Jesus a Saint.

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).
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« Reply #123 on: September 26, 2012, 12:04:03 PM »


Obviously kx9 does not know that "saint" and "holy" are the same word in Greek (and probably Slavonic as well).
Saint and Holy mean exactly the same thing in English as well.
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« Reply #124 on: September 26, 2012, 12:06:01 PM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.
You may find it instructive to listen to or read this - podcast or transcript. The word "saint" is exactly the same word as "holy", or as a noun "holy one". There are many physicians, but Christ is The Physician; there are many teachers, but Christ is The Teacher; there are many shepherds (pastors, if you prefer), but Christ is The Shepherd. In the same way, there are many saints, but Christ is The Saint/Holy One. It is Scriptural.
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« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2012, 12:06:55 PM »

For you only are holy, only you are Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Amen.

Which post of mine did you intend to quote?

The abouve one.

Did you mean this one :
Quote
When I was a Catholic, I never had experiences with Saints at all. However I had a "tremendous" conversion to Christ when the light of the Gospel was opened to my eyes.

That is post 115 and your post is 114 with a five minute time gap.

If so, I'm wondering how that post appeared [below] your post? Do you think it is a bug with the forum software?
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kx9
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« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2012, 12:16:04 PM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.
You may find it instructive to listen to or read this - podcast or transcript. The word "saint" is exactly the same word as "holy", or as a noun "holy one". There are many physicians, but Christ is The Physician; there are many teachers, but Christ is The Teacher; there are many shepherds (pastors, if you prefer), but Christ is The Shepherd. In the same way, there are many saints, but Christ is The Saint/Holy One. It is Scriptural.

Okay now I understand.

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).
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sheenj
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« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2012, 12:18:27 PM »

For you only are holy, only you are Lord Jesus Christ, to the glory of God the Father. Amen.

Amen.

Which post of mine did you intend to quote?

The abouve one.



Did you mean this one :
Quote
When I was a Catholic, I never had experiences with Saints at all. However I had a "tremendous" conversion to Christ when the light of the Gospel was opened to my eyes.

That is post 115 and your post is 114 with a five minute time gap.

If so, I'm wondering how that post appeared [below] your post? Do you think it is a bug with the forum software?
I think he meant to quote this one:
Quote
Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2012, 12:31:53 PM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Christ is not two persons  Huh
Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism gives Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC has given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.

I fail to understand why you (and maybe other EO) understand my posts differently than I intend them to be. When I made that statement, I never had the "two persons" idea in my mind.

I suggest that EO people reading my posts try to understand my viewpoints as I intended them to be. Thanks.

Actually I was talking to Nicholas.
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genesisone
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« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2012, 12:35:50 PM »

Yes, but the difference between Jesus and saints is His divine nature. The saints do not have His divine nature.
This does not preclude him being a saint as well.

Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism has given Jesus the label of "Saint". I was not aware that the EOC had given Him the label of "Saint". Neither do the Scriptures.
You may find it instructive to listen to or read this - podcast or transcript. The word "saint" is exactly the same word as "holy", or as a noun "holy one". There are many physicians, but Christ is The Physician; there are many teachers, but Christ is The Teacher; there are many shepherds (pastors, if you prefer), but Christ is The Shepherd. In the same way, there are many saints, but Christ is The Saint/Holy One. It is Scriptural.

Okay now I understand.

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).
http://www.biblegateway.com/ is an excellent and easy to use resource. I suggest you do a keyword search for "saint" in the English version of your choice, then change to a Greek version. You will consistently see the word (or a variation of) άγιος. Then do the same with the word "holy". Again you will always see the word άγιος.

Have you ever really contemplated the meaning of “Be holy, for I am holy” (I Peter 1:16, which itself refers to several passages in Leviticus)?
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2012, 01:25:11 PM »

Can you please show me a verse (in both English and Greek together) where a person (other than God) is referred to as a "Holy" using that Greek word. (E.g : Moses is holy or Moses was called holy... etc).

Sure. The word we're looking at here is "Agios" and its variants in Greek; "Qdosh" and its variants in Hebrew.

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the holy and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the holy of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the holy took possession of the kingdom." (Daniel 7:21-22) http://biblos.com/daniel/7-21.htm

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the holy who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians) http://biblos.com/ephesians/1-1.htm

"for Herod was afraid of John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was very perplexed; but he used to enjoy listening to him." (Mark 6:20) http://biblos.com/mark/6-20.htm

"Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work. (2 Timothy 2:21) http://biblos.com/2_timothy/2-21.htm

"Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy." (Leviticus 19:2) http://biblos.com/leviticus/19-2.htm

To name a few examples.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 01:29:44 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2012, 01:33:24 PM »

Christ is not two persons  Huh
Yeah, but his one person became a real holy human being.
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« Reply #132 on: September 27, 2012, 09:45:10 AM »

Christ is not two persons  Huh
Yeah, but his one person became a real holy human being.

Yes, I think I misunderstood you before.
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