Topic: Question about intercession prayers

[Cyrillic]

Orthodox church also allow the Christians  to offer intercession prayers to the  dead Orthodox members who are not recognised as saints, like their friends,parents and grandparents,etc.Is it better not to do ?

Because.we do not know whether they are really in heaven or not . We may have a risk of asking the help or intercession from an unsaved one which cannot really pray for us.Or We may have risk which simply chat with the air...

That wouldn't be too terrible, now would it be?

[PeterTheAleut]

Orthodox church also allow the Christians  to offer intercession prayers to the  dead Orthodox members who are not recognised as saints, like their friends,parents and grandparents,etc.Is it better not to do ?

Because.we do not know whether they are really in heaven or not . We may have a risk of asking the help or intercession from an unsaved one which cannot really pray for us.Or We may have risk which simply chat with the air...

Walter, you sound as if you're afraid God won't hear your prayers if you don't have someone else interceding for you. If you make a mistake and ask the wrong person to pray for you, you think God won't hear you?

[walter1234]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophan_the_Recluse

If some saints are only recognised by a local church , but not the church as a whole .Are they still in heaven?

Like st theophan the recluse.He is canonized by local Council of Russia Orthodox church, not the whole church.

[Cyrillic]

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.

[walter1234]

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.

What?

How can a local synod(e.g.part of Church) represent the whole Orthodox Church?

[Cyrillic]

Only an Ecumenical Council can represent the whole Church, and one hasn't been called for some 1200 years now. Besides, canonisations in the early Church were also done by the local synods.

[PeterTheAleut]

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.

What?

How can a local synod(e.g.part of Church) represent the whole Orthodox Church?

If the whole Church recognizes the canonization pronounced by a local synod.

[mike]

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.

What?

How can a local synod(e.g.part of Church) represent the whole Orthodox Church?

If the whole Church recognizes the canonization pronounced by a local synod.

No one never opposed.

[walter1234]

Can any former Protestant Christian share their experience which they get closer to God after they offer intercession prayers and pray with the saints?

Hope this can encourage me.

[mabsoota]

i only prayed once to a saint before i became orthodox. it is not something you always have to do before you are orthodox.
after you become orthodox, it all slowly makes sense.
so don't rush it, i was an inquirer for 2 years before i asked the intercession of the saints for something personal.
i was singing along with the prayers in the liturgy in this time, but without fully understanding this aspect.
i didn't realise how protestant i was until i became orthodox, and then gradually left the prejudices (intercession of saints etc.) behind.

it is more important at this stage for you to pray to God, study the Bible and read about orthodoxy.
if one area confuses you a lot, move onto the next area. it will all make sense later, as God leads you.
 

[Nathanael]

Can any former Protestant Christian share their experience which they get closer to God after they offer intercession prayers and pray with the saints?

Hope this can encourage me.

I wasn't something that I could control voluntary, but after praticing it, as humble as possibly, more and more, after some months I felt that it indeed helps to come closer to God in the way of struggling more succesfully against passions..
Especially when I read an akathist to a saint I feel that this saint is living and that he's a friend, who prays for me as well. But it was also important to me not to forget that Christ is the centre of our life and that when I feel grace during a prayer to a saint, that this grace is coming from Christ through the saint, and not directly from the saint.
I've prayers which I say daily to my favourite saints, and I you just feel and know that they're praying for me. That gives me also encouragement.

[walter1234]

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?

[Arachne]

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?

Isaac is remembered for his spiritual homilies on the inner life, which have a human breadth and theological depth that transcends the Nestorian Christianity of the Church to which he belonged. They survive in Syriac manuscripts and in Greek and Arabic translations. From Greek they were translated into Russian.

Isaac consciously avoided writing on topics that were disputed or discussed in the contemporary theological debates. This gives Isaac a certain ecumenical potential, and is probably the reason that he has come to be venerated and appreciated among many different Christian traditions.

More quotes on his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Isaac_the_Syrian

[walter1234]

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?

Isaac is remembered for his spiritual homilies on the inner life, which have a human breadth and theological depth that transcends the Nestorian Christianity of the Church to which he belonged. They survive in Syriac manuscripts and in Greek and Arabic translations. From Greek they were translated into Russian.

Isaac consciously avoided writing on topics that were disputed or discussed in the contemporary theological debates. This gives Isaac a certain ecumenical potential, and is probably the reason that he has come to be venerated and appreciated among many different Christian traditions.

More quotes on his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Isaac_the_Syrian

Although st Isaac have many wondwrful written works, could understand and show great love and mercy of God, he was still a member of Assyrian Church of East in his life.
Is it not good to recognise a Christian who is outside the true Church as the saint?

[Shanghaiski]

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?

Isaac is remembered for his spiritual homilies on the inner life, which have a human breadth and theological depth that transcends the Nestorian Christianity of the Church to which he belonged. They survive in Syriac manuscripts and in Greek and Arabic translations. From Greek they were translated into Russian.

Isaac consciously avoided writing on topics that were disputed or discussed in the contemporary theological debates. This gives Isaac a certain ecumenical potential, and is probably the reason that he has come to be venerated and appreciated among many different Christian traditions.

More quotes on his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Isaac_the_Syrian

Although st Isaac have many wondwrful written works, could understand and show great love and mercy of God, he was still a member of Assyrian Church of East in his life.
Is it not good to recognise a Christian who is outside the true Church as the saint?

But he was Orthodox, not Nestorian. So there you go.

[Peter J]

Reading posts on this thread, one question kept recurring in my mind: do Orthodox only pray to official saints? Could someone clarify for me.

[elephant]

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant

[Maximum Bob]

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.

[walter1234]

What are the teachings of church fathers about intercession prayers?

[Cyrillic]

What are the teachings of church fathers about intercession prayers?

I'm a little lazy, so here are some quotes.

[Peter J]

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought/assumed before (because that's also how it is with us Catholics) but I was wondering now after reading the conversation with walter1234 about knowing that the saint you're praying to really is a saint.

[choy]

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought/assumed before (because that's also how it is with us Catholics) but I was wondering now after reading the conversation with walter1234 about knowing that the saint you're praying to really is a saint.

The same thing happens in the Catholic Church.  How does, for example, Pope John Paul II become beatified or canonized if there is no one praying for his intercession and then having that prayer granted?  Of course liturgically he won't be commemorated until at least beatified, but after his death I've already have priests during Mass say "Pope John Paul the Great, Pray for Us."  Right or wrong, that is part of the process and it is the same both in the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

[Peter J]

And remember not to pray to the Saints directly and ask them to give or provide us anything, just ask them to pray and intercede for me.Am I correct?l

Good question. I've never been completely sure about that one way or the other.

[Peter J]

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought/assumed before (because that's also how it is with us Catholics) but I was wondering now after reading the conversation with walter1234 about knowing that the saint you're praying to really is a saint.

The same thing happens in the Catholic Church.  How does, for example, Pope John Paul II become beatified or canonized if there is no one praying for his intercession and then having that prayer granted?  Of course liturgically he won't be commemorated until at least beatified, but after his death I've already have priests during Mass say "Pope John Paul the Great, Pray for Us."  Right or wrong, that is part of the process and it is the same both in the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks, although that wasn't so much what I was asking. I already know that's how it is in the Catholic Church; I was asking whether it is different in the Orthodox Church.

[Maximum Bob]

And remember not to pray to the Saints directly and ask them to give or provide us anything, just ask them to pray and intercede for me.Am I correct?l

Good question. I've never been completely sure about that one way or the other.

One can do both, though perhaps intercession is requested more often, don't know.  This was one of my most difficult struggles coming to Orthodoxy from Protestantism,  but after a long struggle someone finally put it in a way that I got.  Just remember anything done by a Saint is done by the power of God.