Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
High Elder
 Offline
Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,594
Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
|
 |
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2012, 07:22:50 PM » |
|
9.When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12.For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13.Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. Some Protestant Christians said that we should not pray to saints according to Deuteronomy 18: 9-13 . What is the difference between cosulter with familiar spirits , necromancer and intercession prayer? Such a prohibition is against magic. Prayer is not magic. We do not summon saints to do our bidding, rather we pray for their assistance and intercession. I would also argue that the saints are not truly dead, as they reside in Christ...and a man in Christ is alive, even though he is dead (think of the raising of Lazarus: "I am the resurrection and the life..."). Christ has shattered death. This was not yet the reality for those living under the Mosaic Law. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2012, 02:55:48 AM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 03:17:37 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
Section Moderator
Hypatos
Offline
Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
Posts: 15,360
OC.net's trickster
|
|
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2012, 07:06:19 AM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
They are not dead: But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=NIV |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
|
|
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
Elder
 Online
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,477
Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava
|
|
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2012, 07:53:34 AM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2012, 08:05:37 AM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints? Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
Section Moderator
Hypatos
Offline
Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
Posts: 15,360
OC.net's trickster
|
|
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2012, 08:12:06 AM » |
|
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints?
Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary?
Thay don't need it. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
|
|
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
Elder
Online
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,477
Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava
|
|
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2012, 08:18:28 AM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints? Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary? Why would they need our prayers? God has revealed to us that they are with Him, so we ask them to pray for us and pray with them for others. I may need the help and intercessions of the saints in trying to live a life worthy of God, but I fail to see what aid my intercessions could be for one who has already done so. Having said that, I'm not sure that there's a prohibition against it, just that we don't do it, at least never in my experience. James |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,198
|
|
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2012, 01:37:22 AM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints? Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary? We already do... "Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith. Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary... For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness." |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2012, 12:32:03 PM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints? Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary? We already do... "Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary... For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness." for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists? As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Delphine
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136
|
|
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2012, 09:58:48 PM » |
|
We already do...
"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.
Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary... For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
Spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists? As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it? I think Father H was giving an example of praying for the saints. It doesn't say "spiritual worship to those who repose in faith." We're making an offering of our spiritual worship to God on behalf of those who repose in faith. EDIT: Although... is this a matter of prayer for the saints for their benefit, or are we saying that we're representing the saints in prayer? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 10:04:02 PM by Delphine »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,198
|
|
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2012, 10:07:09 PM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints? Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary? We already do... "Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary... For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness." for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists? As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it? What is your problem? I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk. You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living. I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude. Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Ansgar
High Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 1,818
Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
|
|
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2012, 03:51:29 AM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints? Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary? We already do... "Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary... For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness." for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists? As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it? What is your problem? I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk. You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living. I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude. Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. With all respect Father, I don' see rudeness in his post. Confusion maybe but not rudeness. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen!
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
|
|
|
JamesRottnek
Taxiarches
Offline
Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 4,539
I am Bibleman
|
|
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2012, 02:15:42 PM » |
|
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead. James Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints? Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary? We already do... "Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary... For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness." for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists? As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it? What is your problem? I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk. You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living. I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude. Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. With all respect Father, I don' see rudeness in his post. Confusion maybe but not rudeness. I have to agree Father. I don't know how many of Walter's other posts you've read, but he's from (I believe) Hong Kong, and English is most definitely not his first language. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
|
|
|
Maximum Bob
Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an Inquirer, less than a Catechuman
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,272
|
|
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2012, 02:09:40 AM » |
|
I would also add that, while Father Hill and Delphine it seems are indicating that the worship is offered for the Saints not to the to the Saints, if they were saying differently the word worship in the English language can have several meanings. Some of these meanings do indeed allow it to be applied to humans. It is a Protestant mistake to take words like worship or save or even pray and apply them very narrowly and only to God.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,198
|
|
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2012, 10:14:43 AM » |
|
I would also add that, while Father Hill and Delphine it seems are indicating that the worship is offered for the Saints not to the to the Saints, if they were saying differently the word worship in the English language can have several meanings. Some of these meanings do indeed allow it to be applied to humans. It is a Protestant mistake to take words like worship or save or even pray and apply them very narrowly and only to God.
Who is Father Hill? Also, the Anaphora is offered to the Trinity, and it is adoration, worship, on behalf of the saints and sinners alike, and "for the whole world" So in this case, a different meaning of worship than latreia is not necessary. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maximum Bob
Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an Inquirer, less than a Catechuman
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,272
|
|
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2012, 11:09:10 AM » |
|
Oops, got an extra letter in there, sorry. Also, my point is not to in any way dispute you Father or Delphine in this example. Just to point out especially for English not first language users but, I suppose others who might be be inclined to the narrow view, that just because one sees a word they're used to doesn't mean the word means what one thinks it does. Rather, as you've pointed out, one needs to consider the context in which the word is found.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.
|
|
|
Father H
Formerly "FatherHLL"
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,198
|
|
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2012, 12:52:06 PM » |
|
Oops, got an extra letter in there, sorry. Also, my point is not to in any way dispute you Father or Delphine in this example. Just to point out especially for English not first language users but, I suppose others who might be be inclined to the narrow view, that just because one sees a word they're used to doesn't mean the word means what one thinks it does. Rather, as you've pointed out, one needs to consider the context in which the word is found.
Right, there are some contexts in which we have to discern worship (as proskynesis of doulia) from latreia. My only point is that this is not one of those instances. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,594
Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
|
|
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2012, 11:52:45 AM » |
|
You raise a very good point, Father! I never really delved into that last prayer of the anaphora before, not in that way. Thank you! And, walter, to offer my 2 cents about the prayer Father posted, Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith, The "spiritual worship" being offered is the Liturgy, particularly the Eucharist, which is offered TO God ("Thine Own of Thine Own, we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all...") and FOR the saints, that is, on behalf of them. The one thing we can do and the saints cannot in celebrate the Liturgy. When we do so, they are present with us. We commune with them in that mystical liturgical service, as they are united to Christ, so are we through the partaking of his Body and Blood. Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary... For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness." This is full of intercessions for various people, including the saints, "especially" the Theotokos, but also St. John the Forerunner, the apostles, the saints of the day...and before this point (in the previous quote box) we pray for saints by the droves. "patriarchs" "prophets" "evangelists" "martyrs" "confessors" "ascetics", etc...these are all "classes" of saints, and we offer the Liturgy for ourselves, and on behalf of them (to God). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2012, 12:42:50 PM » |
|
How to offer intercession prayers? Are there any rules or guidelines?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 12:45:56 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2012, 05:34:39 AM » |
|
St .Peter, pray for me that I can have a closer relationship with God Can I offer intercession prayer in this way? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Ansgar
High Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 1,818
Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
|
|
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2012, 06:35:28 AM » |
|
St .Peter, pray for me that I can have a closer relationship with God Can I offer intercession prayer in this way? Yes, that seems fine. If you can get your hands on a prayer book, you will find other examples.  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen!
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2012, 07:30:34 AM » |
|
And remember not to pray to the Saints directly and ask them to give or provide us anything, just ask them to pray and intercede for me.Am I correct?l
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 07:35:29 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Ansgar
High Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 1,818
Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
|
|
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2012, 07:41:58 AM » |
|
You could put it that way. many orthodox christians pray for the intercession of the saints in a way which for many people could be seen as idolatry. We have to remember that when the saints do something, it is by the will of God. For example, if a sick man is cured by a saint, it means that God has cured him through the saint, just like He would if he was cured by the prayers of a christian here on earth.
I really hope, I didn't put any of this in the wrong way.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen!
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
|
|
|
Maximum Bob
Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an Inquirer, less than a Catechuman
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,272
|
|
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2012, 09:27:35 AM » |
|
The way I remember hearing it if you can ask directly for someone still on earth to help you, can ask a Saint to help you too. Though mostly we do ask for prayers. Also rather your asking for prayers or help the Saint may help by praying or when asked for prayers may choose to help. After all many of the Saints were wonderworkers too.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2012, 11:33:01 AM » |
|
Will you chat with the saints, like chat with a Christian friend who is on earth?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 11:40:57 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Ansgar
High Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 1,818
Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
|
|
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2012, 01:38:28 PM » |
|
Will you chat with the saints, like chat with a Christian friend who is on earth?
Well, most orthodox christians would probably be a little more formal, but Elder Paisios did it. http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/09/more-on-relationship-between-elder.html |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Christ is risen!
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2013, 06:54:41 AM » |
|
I know all Christians who is in Christ will never die and they are still alive in Christ . They can still pray for us and even perform miracles under the power of God. However, I still have some struggle on the intercession prayer.
How can I know all the saints we venerate must be in the heaven and in the glory of God now?
If there is an Orthodox saint who I always venerate and pray with every day is not in heaven, but is actually in hell, or he/she is simply come from stories which men make /imagine and does not even exist in History, would I as the same as chating, praying to the air ? Is this just like making friends with, uniting and having communion with the air?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 07:04:36 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
Section Moderator
Hypatos
Offline
Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
Posts: 15,360
OC.net's trickster
|
|
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2013, 10:18:19 AM » |
|
How can I know all the saints we venerate must be in the heaven and in the glory of God now?
If there is an Orthodox saint who I always venerate and pray with every day is not in heaven, but is actually in hell, or he/she is simply come from stories which men make /imagine and does not even exist in History, would I as the same as chating, praying to the air ? Is this just like making friends with, uniting and having communion with the air?
The Church is guided by Holy Spirit. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
|
|
biro
Ursus maritimus
Site Supporter
Stratopedarches
Offline
Faith: Raised Roman Catholic; now attend GOA
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 9,599
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2013, 10:42:50 AM » |
|
I know all Christians who is in Christ will never die and they are still alive in Christ . They can still pray for us and even perform miracles under the power of God. However, I still have some struggle on the intercession prayer.
How can I know all the saints we venerate must be in the heaven and in the glory of God now?
If there is an Orthodox saint who I always venerate and pray with every day is not in heaven, but is actually in hell, or he/she is simply come from stories which men make /imagine and does not even exist in History, would I as the same as chating, praying to the air ? Is this just like making friends with, uniting and having communion with the air?
I don't think the Church would recognize as a saint someone it believed to be in Hell. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
phthalyl.podomatic.com
the-cornet.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2013, 11:25:29 AM » |
|
But we/ the church cannot see and know the private life and the heart of saints....
How about those saints which is only recognised by OO and Cathlolic, but not by EO?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 11:29:22 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
Section Moderator
Hypatos
Offline
Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
Posts: 15,360
OC.net's trickster
|
|
« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2013, 11:29:16 AM » |
|
But we/ the church cannot see and know the private life of saints....
The Church can't? Really? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2013, 02:35:53 PM » |
|
Would it be possible that some saints show good behaviors before the people in Church. However, when there is nobody around him/ her, he / she start to have some evil thought or even act wickedness? Would it be possible that somebody become saints due to political pressure? Would it be possible that some saints are simply come from the story which man imagine and doesn't exist?
And Many saints in Catholic Church are not recognised by the Orthodox Church. If the Catholic Christians pray to those saints which is not recognised by Orthodox Church,like Mother Teresa, St Francis, etc, do Orthodox Christians think that they are just as the same as chatting, praying to , uniting and having communion with the air?
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 02:37:05 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2013, 04:08:43 PM » |
|
Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life..... Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have communion with him....  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:14:26 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Exarchos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 25,985
EXTERMINATE!
|
|
« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2013, 04:25:55 PM » |
|
Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life..... Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have communion with him.... Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:26:37 PM by PeterTheAleut »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2013, 04:38:57 PM » |
|
Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life..... Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have communion with him.... Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans. BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints... Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well. If some recognised saints are actually in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him? If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell...  |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 04:57:48 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Asteriktos
|
|
« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2013, 04:59:23 PM » |
|
Walter, I'm not sure how much this impacts your question, but fwiw, in Orthodox theology no one is in hell right now. Hell is not created until the end of time at the last judgment. Thus someone would be, at most, in hades, receiving a foretaste of what they will experience eternally.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Cyrillic
|
|
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2013, 05:03:45 PM » |
|
Why not study the difference between the OO and the EO instead and make a choise between the two?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Exarchos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 25,985
EXTERMINATE!
|
|
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2013, 05:59:33 PM » |
|
Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life..... Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have communion with him.... Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans. BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints... Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well. If some recognised saints are actually in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him? If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
SolEX01
|
|
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2013, 06:05:52 PM » |
|
And Many saints in Catholic Church are not recognised by the Orthodox Church. If the Catholic Christians pray to those saints which is not recognised by Orthodox Church,like Mother Teresa, St Francis, etc, do Orthodox Christians think that they are just as the same as chatting, praying to , uniting and having communion with the air?
Are you familiar with the term, ignorance? Orthodox Christians can be ignorant by choosing to venerate Mother Teresa, St. Francis of Assisi, etc. That doesn't mean they've broken communion with the Orthodox Church, at least not yet. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Maximum Bob
Elder
Offline
Faith: More than an Inquirer, less than a Catechuman
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,272
|
|
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2013, 11:59:37 PM » |
|
Remember the same Holy Spirit guided good judgement you admire in the Orthodox church's stance on Scripture and tradition is applied to the identification of Saints.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2013, 05:45:49 AM » |
|
Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life..... Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have communion with him.... Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans. BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints... Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well. If some recognised saints are actually in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him? If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans. You mean Church is assembly of all follower of Jesus as well as a community? Except EO , all other communites,including OO are false Church and holy spirit does not guide them? So,even OO are not the true Church which is guided by holy spirit? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 05:53:24 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Exarchos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 25,985
EXTERMINATE!
|
|
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2013, 10:30:52 AM » |
|
Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life..... Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have communion with him.... Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans. BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints... Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well. If some recognised saints are actually in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him? If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans. You mean Church is assembly of all follower of Jesus as well as a community? Except EO , all other communites,including OO are false Church and holy spirit does not guide them? So,even OO are not the true Church which is guided by holy spirit? I am saying no such things. I am only addressing your apparent lack of trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit within the Church. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2013, 11:22:07 AM » |
|
Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life..... Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have communion with him.... Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans. BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints... Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well. If some recognised saints are actually in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him? If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans. You mean Church is assembly of all follower of Jesus as well as a community? Except EO , all other communites,including OO are false Church and holy spirit does not guide them? So,even OO are not the true Church which is guided by holy spirit? I am saying no such things. I am only addressing your apparent lack of trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit within the Church. How can I know the church are under the guidance of holy spirit to recognise every saints?How to prove it? Every church , either true or false one also claim that they are under the guidance of holy spirit . And as I come from charismatic,"Guidance of holy spirit" is a very familiar term to me.Almost all charismatic and Pentecostal Christians claim they are always guided by holy spirit. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 11:28:50 AM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Michał Kalina
proud Podlachian Belarusian parajournalistic engineer in spe
Section Moderator
Hypatos
Offline
Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk / Diocese of Warsaw and Bielsk Podlaski
Posts: 15,360
OC.net's trickster
|
|
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2013, 11:30:55 AM » |
|
How can I know the church are under the guidance of holy spirit to recognise the every saints?How to.prove it?
Mt 16, 18; Acts 1, 8; John 14, 26; Mt 13, 11; John 14, 26. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
|
|
|
walter1234
|
|
« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2013, 12:09:24 PM » |
|
Orthodox church also allow the Christians to offer intercession prayers to the dead Orthodox members who are not recognised as saints, like their friends,parents and grandparents,etc.Is it better not to do ?
Because.we do not know whether they are really in heaven or not . We may have a risk of asking the help or intercession from an unsaved one which cannot really pray for us.Or We may have risk which simply chat with the air...
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 12:28:30 PM by walter1234 »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
