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walter1234
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« on: September 22, 2012, 09:03:48 AM »

I am a protestant. I want to ask some questions about intercession prayers.

Why do orthodox christians ask the saints to pray for them?? Where does the bible teach us to do so??

IF we ask the a dead believer/ saint to pray for us, we have to ensure that he must be in the heaven and communion with God  after he die. How can we know the one who we ask for intercession is in the heaven??
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 09:34:09 AM »

In the Orthodox Church, the Saints have already been glorified by God and He communicated this fact to The Church. Saints performed miracles, gave us teachings, died for The Faith, etc.

Well, I don't know if it's in the Bible. But this gives me the opportunity to say that The Church is not only based on the Bible alone. The Bible itself was written within what we call Holy Tradition, which is basically the life of The Church. Tradition was started by Christ and we believe that it continues until today. That is our communion with God is never broken. We believe He leads the Church and that He is with us always, as He promised. Furthermore, the Church also has clergy and this clergy must have unbroken apostolic succession.

Perhaps, this is quite a bit of info, but why we pray to saints and who is a saint gets established within The Church (with all Her aspects) and there are precise rules as to how the saints are recognized and who can recognize them. A lot of it is based on the faith and the love of the people who confess that they've been helped by the saints. Those who can make it official are the clergy.

There are many saints who have not been canonized (recognized), yet, by name. Only God knows them, yet The Church prays to all of them known and unknown, on specific days such as The Sunday of All Saints.

Why do we pray? Because they are our friends, our spiritual family and we believe that they are able to help us, much like when you ask any person for something. In this particular case, you ask for their intercession. So, since God recognized them, we do believe that they are in Heaven.

But this gets much deeper into the life of the Church. After all, what is prayer, what is intercession? In our Tradition, prayer is basically communion with God. All Orthodox struggle to achieve direct communion with God, the saints and the angels through prayer. And, this is also based on love. God is love, so He naturally loves to interact with us, and we with him, and everybody else. The Church is very much alive in a beautiful way. To us, the Faith would be unreal, pointless, if it wasn't based on this direct communion with God, the Saints and the Angels and each other, or if we didn't confess and apply this fact in all areas of our lives.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 09:41:12 AM by IoanC » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 09:55:15 AM »

saints:
hebrews 12: 1-2
tradition:
2 thessalonians 2: 15

they are our friends, death does not separate us.
good friends pray for each other.
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 10:17:55 AM »

The subject of praying to saints doesn't bother me very much. I you take a look at the danish language for example, we use the word bede, which means "to pray" when we are asking other people for something (I think I have seen it used in english too). And since the saints are alive in Heaven, it is no different than adressing people here on Earth.
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 10:29:14 AM »

In the Orthodox Church, the Saints have already been glorified by God and He communicated this fact to The Church. Saints performed miracles, gave us teachings, died for The Faith, etc.

Well, I don't know if it's in the Bible. But this gives me the opportunity to say that The Church is not only based on the Bible alone. The Bible itself was written within what we call Holy Tradition, which is basically the life of The Church. Tradition was started by Christ and we believe that it continues until today. That is our communion with God is never broken. We believe He leads the Church and that He is with us always, as He promised. Furthermore, the Church also has clergy and this clergy must have unbroken apostolic succession.

Perhaps, this is quite a bit of info, but why we pray to saints and who is a saint gets established within The Church (with all Her aspects) and there are precise rules as to how the saints are recognized and who can recognize them. A lot of it is based on the faith and the love of the people who confess that they've been helped by the saints. Those who can make it official are the clergy.

There are many saints who have not been canonized (recognized), yet, by name. Only God knows them, yet The Church prays to all of them known and unknown, on specific days such as The Sunday of All Saints.

Why do we pray? Because they are our friends, our spiritual family and we believe that they are able to help us, much like when you ask any person for something. In this particular case, you ask for their intercession. So, since God recognized them, we do believe that they are in Heaven.

But this gets much deeper into the life of the Church. After all, what is prayer, what is intercession? In our Tradition, prayer is basically communion with God. All Orthodox struggle to achieve direct communion with God, the saints and the angels through prayer. And, this is also based on love. God is love, so He naturally loves to interact with us, and we with him, and everybody else. The Church is very much alive in a beautiful way. To us, the Faith would be unreal, pointless, if it wasn't based on this direct communion with God, the Saints and the Angels and each other, or if we didn't confess and apply this fact in all areas of our lives.

I know we need to have the communion with God. He is our everything. It is imortant.

But why do we need to have the communion with the saints and angel??
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 10:29:42 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 12:02:02 PM »

In the Orthodox Church, the Saints have already been glorified by God and He communicated this fact to The Church. Saints performed miracles, gave us teachings, died for The Faith, etc.

Well, I don't know if it's in the Bible. But this gives me the opportunity to say that The Church is not only based on the Bible alone. The Bible itself was written within what we call Holy Tradition, which is basically the life of The Church. Tradition was started by Christ and we believe that it continues until today. That is our communion with God is never broken. We believe He leads the Church and that He is with us always, as He promised. Furthermore, the Church also has clergy and this clergy must have unbroken apostolic succession.

Perhaps, this is quite a bit of info, but why we pray to saints and who is a saint gets established within The Church (with all Her aspects) and there are precise rules as to how the saints are recognized and who can recognize them. A lot of it is based on the faith and the love of the people who confess that they've been helped by the saints. Those who can make it official are the clergy.

There are many saints who have not been canonized (recognized), yet, by name. Only God knows them, yet The Church prays to all of them known and unknown, on specific days such as The Sunday of All Saints.

Why do we pray? Because they are our friends, our spiritual family and we believe that they are able to help us, much like when you ask any person for something. In this particular case, you ask for their intercession. So, since God recognized them, we do believe that they are in Heaven.

But this gets much deeper into the life of the Church. After all, what is prayer, what is intercession? In our Tradition, prayer is basically communion with God. All Orthodox struggle to achieve direct communion with God, the saints and the angels through prayer. And, this is also based on love. God is love, so He naturally loves to interact with us, and we with him, and everybody else. The Church is very much alive in a beautiful way. To us, the Faith would be unreal, pointless, if it wasn't based on this direct communion with God, the Saints and the Angels and each other, or if we didn't confess and apply this fact in all areas of our lives.

I know we need to have the communion with God. He is our everything. It is imortant.

But why do we need to have the communion with the saints and angel??

Because they are our brothers. We are the same Body of Christ. Out of love, or the same reason you have communion with anybody in your life. It is also important.
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 12:05:59 PM »

I do think the intercessions of the Saints has at least *some* Biblical basis. The Epistle to the Hebrews describes the Saint as "a cloud of witnesses."
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 12:54:58 PM »

Will the orthodox christians ask the angels to pray for them??
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 01:40:14 PM »

Will the orthodox christians ask the angels to pray for them??
Yes.
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 05:59:25 PM »

Firstly, Walter welcome to the forum.

As Ansgar basically said don't get to caught up in the language of it all. Protestants, at least here in North America, have a tendency to forget that words we use in a church context often have bigger, longer and deeper meanings than we give them credit for. When we assume that others use them the same way that we generally do, we do so at the peril of our own ability to understand that which is beyond our standard experience. Not that I'm saying that you are just a piece of advice that helped me.

As to asking anyone else to pray for us Saints, angels, etc., do you ask your Pastor to pray for you, your friends to pray for you? If so the question we really need to ask is are the Saints and angels able to pray for us? As you said how do we know they're with God. They certainly can be, as it is somewhere written He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the God of the living, not the dead, and as Christ Himself said to the good thief "today you will be with Me in Paradise". So if they can be, are they? How do we know? How does anyone?

To answer this as someone else said you need to go beyond the Bible as it is known by Protestants today. Recall that multiple generations of Christians lived and died before anything that even closely resembles the New Testament in it's whole came into being. Even that is is only the New Testament of the Church that grew and developed within the bounds of the old Roman Empire, those Churches outside the Roman Empire developed different canons of Scripture.

Why do we need to go beyond the Bible? Because if you accept the above points your not looking for a blanket how do we know about the Saints but your looking for a specific, is Saint so and so really in Heaven. Consider then that of the hundreds or thousands of Saints who have been identified most of them are not mentioned on the Bible and a good number lived their lives after the books of the Bible were written.

If we go beyond the Bible what is there? A lot. Look at the writtings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Consider ancient Church hymnography, and written prayers, consider the writings of and stories of the the Saints themselves. There is so much more in writting even of early origin the most Protestants know. Happy reading to you.
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 10:53:05 PM »


I know we need to have the communion with God. He is our everything. It is imortant.

But why do we need to have the communion with the saints and angel??

I assume you have friends and family on earth. You will not stop talking to them, just because you only need communion with God, right? You will not say to your parents, "I don't need you anymore, I have God!" No, being in communion with other people is part of our communion with God, and this communion is not broken by death.
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 10:56:46 PM »

I am a protestant. I want to ask some questions about intercession prayers.

Why do orthodox christians ask the saints to pray for them?? Where does the bible teach us to do so??

IF we ask the a dead believer/ saint to pray for us, we have to ensure that he must be in the heaven and communion with God  after he die. How can we know the one who we ask for intercession is in the heaven??

“Brethren, pray for us” (1 Thess. 5.25)
“finally, brethren, pray for us…” (2 Thess 3.1)
Hebrews 13.18:  “pray for us”
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2012, 11:15:10 PM »

I am a protestant. I want to ask some questions about intercession prayers.

Why do orthodox christians ask the saints to pray for them?? Where does the bible teach us to do so??

IF we ask the a dead believer/ saint to pray for us, we have to ensure that he must be in the heaven and communion with God  after he die. How can we know the one who we ask for intercession is in the heaven??

“Brethren, pray for us” (1 Thess. 5.25)
“finally, brethren, pray for us…” (2 Thess 3.1)
Hebrews 13.18:  “pray for us”

Yes ^^^ this, and remember that the saints are alive and considered brothers & sisters in Heaven.
Also Mary in Heaven is alive, and is often asked to pray for us.
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 12:03:23 AM »

In the Orthodox Church, the Saints have already been glorified by God and He communicated this fact to The Church. Saints performed miracles, gave us teachings, died for The Faith, etc.

Well, I don't know if it's in the Bible. But this gives me the opportunity to say that The Church is not only based on the Bible alone. The Bible itself was written within what we call Holy Tradition, which is basically the life of The Church. Tradition was started by Christ and we believe that it continues until today. That is our communion with God is never broken. We believe He leads the Church and that He is with us always, as He promised. Furthermore, the Church also has clergy and this clergy must have unbroken apostolic succession.

Perhaps, this is quite a bit of info, but why we pray to saints and who is a saint gets established within The Church (with all Her aspects) and there are precise rules as to how the saints are recognized and who can recognize them. A lot of it is based on the faith and the love of the people who confess that they've been helped by the saints. Those who can make it official are the clergy.

There are many saints who have not been canonized (recognized), yet, by name. Only God knows them, yet The Church prays to all of them known and unknown, on specific days such as The Sunday of All Saints.

Why do we pray? Because they are our friends, our spiritual family and we believe that they are able to help us, much like when you ask any person for something. In this particular case, you ask for their intercession. So, since God recognized them, we do believe that they are in Heaven.

But this gets much deeper into the life of the Church. After all, what is prayer, what is intercession? In our Tradition, prayer is basically communion with God. All Orthodox struggle to achieve direct communion with God, the saints and the angels through prayer. And, this is also based on love. God is love, so He naturally loves to interact with us, and we with him, and everybody else. The Church is very much alive in a beautiful way. To us, the Faith would be unreal, pointless, if it wasn't based on this direct communion with God, the Saints and the Angels and each other, or if we didn't confess and apply this fact in all areas of our lives.

I know we need to have the communion with God. He is our everything. It is imortant.

But why do we need to have the communion with the saints and angel??

Why would we not?

It's the communion of saints--it's in the creed, it's referenced in Scripture. On Tabor, the Apostles did not just see Jesus, but Moses, Elijah, and each other. They all experienced the glory of God. They were all taken in the cloud. It's good to be there.
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 12:04:35 AM »

Will the orthodox christians ask the angels to pray for them??

This is what angels and saints do. We're only entering into their labor.
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2012, 02:10:24 AM »

I am a protestant. I want to ask some questions about intercession prayers.

Why do orthodox christians ask the saints to pray for them?? Where does the bible teach us to do so??

IF we ask the a dead believer/ saint to pray for us, we have to ensure that he must be in the heaven and communion with God  after he die. How can we know the one who we ask for intercession is in the heaven??

The following is a relatively short article that prove based on the bible that we not only can, but must seek and offer intercession prayers.
https://sites.google.com/site/syrianorthodox/home/articles/intercession-prayer
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2012, 04:34:48 PM »


It's the communion of saints--it's in the creed, it's referenced in Scripture. On Tabor, the Apostles did not just see Jesus, but Moses, Elijah, and each other. They all experienced the glory of God. They were all taken in the cloud. It's good to be there.

wow, i didn't think about this before.

and dhinuus, that article is so good, i have immediately downloaded it to my computer to help me to answer my protestant friends.

thanks a lot, all who have contributed to this thread.
 Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 03:50:13 AM »

I am confused now.

As what we know, After the saints and follower of Christs die , they would go to Hade/Sheol and be in the state of death.They would not  raise from death, alive again and stay in the glory of God immediately .However, They will hear the voice of Jesus, raise from death,alive again, reward and recieve the glory of God in the Final judgement

Why do orthodox christians teach that the saints and the followers of Jesus will immedieately alive again,stay in the glory of God and even pray from us after they die??

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« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 04:01:47 AM »

I am confused now.

As what we know, After the saints and follower of Christs die , they would go to Hade/Sheol and be in the state of death.They would not  raise from death, alive again and stay in the glory of God immediately .However, They will hear the voice of Jesus, raise from death,alive again, reward and recieve the glory of God in the Final judgement

Why do orthodox christians teach that the saints and the followers of Jesus will immedieately alive again,stay in the glory of God and even pray from us after they die??



Wow..

Isn't this being discussed in another thread?
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« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2012, 05:55:03 AM »

In debates like these I used to say "the saints are more alive than we are". Each time I said that, however, I got flamed by the protestants.
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« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2012, 06:06:33 AM »

"the saints are more alive than we are"?

But they are still in hade / Sheol/death.They have not  raised from death, alive again and receive the glory of God yet. All these will happen after the Final Judgement. How to explain it?
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 06:18:21 AM »

"the saints are more alive than we are"?

But they are still in hade / Sheol/death.They have not  raised from death, alive again and receive the glory of God yet. All these will happen after the Final Judgement. How to explain it?

No, they're in heaven, not in some limbus patrum.
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« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 06:42:10 AM »


It's the communion of saints--it's in the creed, it's referenced in Scripture. On Tabor, the Apostles did not just see Jesus, but Moses, Elijah, and each other. They all experienced the glory of God. They were all taken in the cloud. It's good to be there.

wow, i didn't think about this before.

and dhinuus, that article is so good, i have immediately downloaded it to my computer to help me to answer my protestant friends.

thanks a lot, all who have contributed to this thread.
 Smiley
I bookmarked the article myself.
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« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2012, 06:48:13 AM »

"the saints are more alive than we are"?

But they are still in hade / Sheol/death.They have not  raised from death, alive again and receive the glory of God yet. All these will happen after the Final Judgement. How to explain it?

No, they're in heaven, not in some limbus patrum.

I am Still confused.

As what orthodox church teaches, no matter righteounesss or wickedness men, they still have to go to Sheol/ Hade after the die. They all wait to hear the voice of Jesus. After it, they will all raise from death, alive again. For the righteouness men, they will receive the reward from Jesus as well as stay and enjoy in glory and presence of God Forever after the Final judgement.

Why are the saints already in the heaven now? Can you explain it more detail?
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« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2012, 06:55:03 AM »

"the saints are more alive than we are"?

But they are still in hade / Sheol/death.They have not  raised from death, alive again and receive the glory of God yet. All these will happen after the Final Judgement. How to explain it?

Did you read the article dhinnus posted? It explains very well that we simply do not believe that they are dead. When you say that they won't be raised from the dead until the Last Judgement, you are correct - but this is the bodily resurrection. Those who have passed on are alive but not in the body.

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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2012, 10:04:12 AM »


    Christ is risen from the dead,
    Trampling down death by death,
    And upon those in the tombs
    Bestowing life!
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2012, 11:31:21 AM »

Sheol is empty since the Resurrection of Christ. The general resurrection that is awaited is the resurrection of the body, that is the reuniting of the soul and body. No more is the soul imprisoned in the place of the dead, for Chirst has conquered death and dissolved its power.
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« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2012, 02:06:03 PM »

Can anyone share their personal testimony about the intercession prayers?Is there any changes before and after they do intercession prayers?
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« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2012, 10:37:16 PM »

You mean, do they work? Yes, they often do.
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2012, 12:02:56 AM »

Walter,

I would recommend the article linked above, it does a very good job explaining the Orthodox position on the communion of saints. However, let me also try to briefly address your questions.

The Orthodox teach that, before Christ, things were as you are saying. All those who died entered Hades (Sheol, if you prefer...the Abode of the Dead) and were without hope of ever leaving. Then, Christ came and died, but Christ is Life and the Author of Life, and could not die. He shattered the gates of death (of Hades/Sheol) and saves those who trust in Him from it. The righteous departed, whom we call "saints", those people who lived before Christ and after Him, those who are both known to us that we call saints and those who are known only to God, are united to Christ, as St. Paul says:

"It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me." (Galatians 2:20)

If Christ lives in us, how can we die? Jesus Himself says:

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." (John 11:25-26)

We're told that, even though we die, we shall live...and even that we will never die, if we live and believe in Christ. But, how can that be, since everyone dies? Does that mean no one is living and believing in Christ? Of course not! Christ here is talking about dying spiritually. Our bodies die, and we all wait for our bodies to be resurrected at the last day, but we never truly die if we live in Christ. This is how the saints are alive, and we can pray to them and with them...because they are alive in Christ.

Jesus even promises the thief on the cross that he will live with Christ, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43) No one really questions that, of course, Christ is speaking of heaven. He doesn't tell the thief (who the Church knows as St. Dismas) that he will be with Christ "in the last day" or "after the resurrection", but "today." The saints, like St. Dismis, live today with Christ in heaven...while they await for the fullness of the Kingdom of God, when they will be resurrected in their bodies.

I hope this helps you, Walter. I'm glad to see you asking so many questions. Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2012, 12:48:50 AM »

Can anyone share their personal testimony about the intercession prayers?Is there any changes before and after they do intercession prayers?

When we started going to the Church we go to now, an issue we had was that my wife couldn't handle the incense. She grew up in a church that used incense, it was an issue for her then, and she couldn't handle it in our current church.

One Saturday night I had the sense, I don't remember how, that she should ask the intersession of the Theotokos. I shared that with her the next morning on the way to church, and she did say a prayer to the Theotokos. When we got to church I could smell the incense at the door she couldn't even smell it in the nave. Since then it has never been an issue for her.
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2012, 03:18:16 PM »

Quote
Origen

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius


Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Anonymous


Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

Anonymous


Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem


Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition... (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Anonymous

Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

To those who would fain to stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraem of Syria

Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day (De Timore, Anim. in fin. [A.D. 370]).

Liturgy of St. Basil

By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Gregory Nazianzen

Yes, I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]).

May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand (Orations 17 [24] [A.D. 376]),

Gregory of Nyssa

Do you, [Ephraem] that art standing at the divine altar . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom (Sermon on Ephraem the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

Ambrose of Milan


May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance (Hexameron 5:25:90 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom

He that wears the purple . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tent-maker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on 2 Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God] (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine


A Christian people celebrate together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Jerome


You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).


http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_intercession.htm

I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?
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« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2012, 03:35:06 PM »


I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?

Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2012, 03:40:53 PM »


I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?

Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
I remember reading a portion of St. Polycarp's epistle which seemed to allude to intercessory prayers. I'll try to give a reference tomorrow.
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« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2012, 03:42:19 PM »

Quote
Origen

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius


Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Anonymous


Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

Anonymous


Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem


Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition... (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Anonymous

Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Hilary of Poitiers

To those who would fain to stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

Ephraem of Syria

Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day (De Timore, Anim. in fin. [A.D. 370]).

Liturgy of St. Basil

By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Gregory Nazianzen

Yes, I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]).

May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand (Orations 17 [24] [A.D. 376]),

Gregory of Nyssa

Do you, [Ephraem] that art standing at the divine altar . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom (Sermon on Ephraem the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

Ambrose of Milan


May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance (Hexameron 5:25:90 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom

He that wears the purple . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tent-maker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on 2 Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God] (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine


A Christian people celebrate together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Jerome


You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).


http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_intercession.htm

I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?


There is a prayer to the Theotokos "Under Your Compassion" dated AD 250;  the earliest recorded prayer addressed to Mary, and still used in the Orthodox Church. Will that do?  









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« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2012, 03:54:37 PM »

Quote
Intercession of the saints is a doctrine held by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and some Anglican churches, that saints including the Blessed Virgin Mary may be asked to intercede (or pray) for others. The doctrine of requesting intercession from saints can be found in Christian writings from the 3rd century AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints

I found the above statement from wikipedia . There is no record of intercession prayer among A.D.33- A.D 200 (e.g. 1st- 2nd century) . Is it true?
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« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2012, 03:59:35 PM »

Quote
Intercession of the saints is a doctrine held by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and some Anglican churches, that saints including the Blessed Virgin Mary may be asked to intercede (or pray) for others. The doctrine of requesting intercession from saints can be found in Christian writings from the 3rd century AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints

I found the above statement from wikipedia . There is no record of intercession prayer among A.D.33- A.D 200 (e.g. 1st- 2nd century) . Is it true?

Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence...
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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2012, 06:04:24 PM »

Quote
Intercession of the saints is a doctrine held by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and some Anglican churches, that saints including the Blessed Virgin Mary may be asked to intercede (or pray) for others. The doctrine of requesting intercession from saints can be found in Christian writings from the 3rd century AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints

I found the above statement from wikipedia . There is no record of intercession prayer among A.D.33- A.D 200 (e.g. 1st- 2nd century) . Is it true?

As far as I know, the earliest extant manuscripts we have of intercessory prayers would be, as mentioned earlier, the text of "Beneath Thy Compassion", addressed to the Theotokos, around A.D. 250.

That said, the Papyrus that this was found on was the Ryland's Papyrus, which contains many ancient Christian texts. It is also the earliest copies we have of some Gospel passages. Do you believe those passages were written in the third century, or are they copies from earlier? Your answer could very easily be said of the prayer "Beneath Thy Compassion", which shares the papyrus with those passages.
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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2012, 06:51:24 PM »

Can anyone share their personal testimony about the intercession prayers?Is there any changes before and after they do intercession prayers?

When we started going to the Church we go to now, an issue we had was that my wife couldn't handle the incense. She grew up in a church that used incense, it was an issue for her then, and she couldn't handle it in our current church.

One Saturday night I had the sense, I don't remember how, that she should ask the intersession of the Theotokos. I shared that with her the next morning on the way to church, and she did say a prayer to the Theotokos. When we got to church I could smell the incense at the door she couldn't even smell it in the nave. Since then it has never been an issue for her.

Glory to God and His mother!

The best advice I got when I was first becoming Orthodox was, "Pray to the Mother of God."

We love God and have a relationship with him. And we also love His saints and also have relationships with them. Why wouldn't we? We are a family.
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« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2012, 07:02:12 PM »

Quote
Intercession of the saints is a doctrine held by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and some Anglican churches, that saints including the Blessed Virgin Mary may be asked to intercede (or pray) for others. The doctrine of requesting intercession from saints can be found in Christian writings from the 3rd century AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints

I found the above statement from wikipedia . There is no record of intercession prayer among A.D.33- A.D 200 (e.g. 1st- 2nd century) . Is it true?

Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence...

Upon this rock many have built their church.
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« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2012, 05:34:35 AM »

Quote
9.When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
 
10.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
 
11.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
 
12.For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
 
13.Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.


Some Protestant Christians said that we should not pray to saints according to Deuteronomy 18: 9-13 . What is the difference between cosulter with familiar spirits , necromancer  and intercession prayer?
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« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2012, 10:56:10 AM »

Quote
9.When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
 
10.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
 
11.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
 
12.For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
 
13.Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.


Some Protestant Christians said that we should not pray to saints according to Deuteronomy 18: 9-13 . What is the difference between cosulter with familiar spirits , necromancer  and intercession prayer?
For one, when we pray to the saints, we're not trying to conjure up the spirits of the dead.
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« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2012, 11:07:26 AM »


I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?

Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
I remember reading a portion of St. Polycarp's epistle which seemed to allude to intercessory prayers. I'll try to give a reference tomorrow.

Well?
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« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2012, 12:54:22 PM »


I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?

Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
I remember reading a portion of St. Polycarp's epistle which seemed to allude to intercessory prayers. I'll try to give a reference tomorrow.

Well?
Here:

"Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that you may be perfect in Him." -Chapter 12

Not sure if that really helps. Undecided
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« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2012, 01:18:01 PM »


I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?

Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
I remember reading a portion of St. Polycarp's epistle which seemed to allude to intercessory prayers. I'll try to give a reference tomorrow.

Well?
Here:

"Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, Matthew 5:44 and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that you may be perfect in Him." -Chapter 12

Not sure if that really helps. Undecided

See also: The Martyrdom of Ignatius, 7
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« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2012, 07:22:50 PM »

Quote
9.When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
 
10.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
 
11.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
 
12.For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
 
13.Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.


Some Protestant Christians said that we should not pray to saints according to Deuteronomy 18: 9-13 . What is the difference between cosulter with familiar spirits , necromancer  and intercession prayer?

Such a prohibition is against magic. Prayer is not magic. We do not summon saints to do our bidding, rather we pray for their assistance and intercession. I would also argue that the saints are not truly dead, as they reside in Christ...and a man in Christ is alive, even though he is dead (think of the raising of Lazarus: "I am the resurrection and the life..."). Christ has shattered death. This was not yet the reality for those living under the Mosaic Law.
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« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2012, 02:55:48 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
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« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2012, 07:06:19 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

They are not dead:

But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=NIV
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« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2012, 07:53:34 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
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« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2012, 08:05:37 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?
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« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2012, 08:12:06 AM »

Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?

Thay don't need it.
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« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2012, 08:18:28 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?

Why would they need our prayers? God has revealed to us that they are with Him, so we ask them to pray for us and pray with them for others. I may need the help and intercessions of the saints in trying to live a life worthy of God, but I fail to see what aid my intercessions could be for one who has already done so.

Having said that, I'm not sure that there's a prohibition against it, just that we don't do it, at least never in my experience.

James
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« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2012, 01:37:22 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?


We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.
Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
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« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2012, 12:32:03 PM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?


We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."


Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?
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« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2012, 09:58:48 PM »

We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."


Spiritual worship   for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?

I think Father H was giving an example of praying for the saints. It doesn't say "spiritual worship to those who repose in faith." We're making an offering of our spiritual worship to God on behalf of those who repose in faith.

EDIT: Although... is this a matter of prayer for the saints for their benefit, or are we saying that we're representing the saints in prayer?
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« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2012, 10:07:09 PM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?


We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."


Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?

What is your problem?  I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk.  You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living.  I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude.  Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. 
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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2012, 03:51:29 AM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?


We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."


Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?

What is your problem?  I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk.  You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living.  I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude.  Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. 
With all respect Father, I don' see rudeness in his post. Confusion maybe but not rudeness.
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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2012, 02:15:42 PM »

Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?

No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?


We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."


Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?

What is your problem?  I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk.  You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living.  I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude.  Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. 
With all respect Father, I don' see rudeness in his post. Confusion maybe but not rudeness.

I have to agree Father.  I don't know how many of Walter's other posts you've read, but he's from (I believe) Hong Kong, and English is most definitely not his first language. 
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« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2012, 02:09:40 AM »

I would also add that, while Father Hill and Delphine it seems are indicating that the worship is offered for the Saints not to the to the Saints, if they were saying differently the word worship in the English language can have several meanings. Some of these meanings do indeed allow it to be applied to humans. It is a Protestant mistake to take words like worship or save or even pray and apply them very narrowly and only to God.
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« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2012, 10:14:43 AM »

I would also add that, while Father Hill and Delphine it seems are indicating that the worship is offered for the Saints not to the to the Saints, if they were saying differently the word worship in the English language can have several meanings. Some of these meanings do indeed allow it to be applied to humans. It is a Protestant mistake to take words like worship or save or even pray and apply them very narrowly and only to God.
Who is Father Hill?  Also, the Anaphora is offered to the Trinity, and it is adoration, worship, on behalf of the saints and sinners alike, and "for the whole world"  So in this case, a different meaning of worship than latreia is not necessary.   
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« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2012, 11:09:10 AM »

Oops, got an extra letter in there, sorry. Also, my point is not to in any way dispute you Father or Delphine in this example. Just to point out especially for English not first language users but, I suppose others who might be be inclined to the narrow view, that just because one sees a word they're used to doesn't mean the word means what one thinks it does. Rather, as you've pointed out, one needs to consider the context in which the word is found.
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« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2012, 12:52:06 PM »

Oops, got an extra letter in there, sorry. Also, my point is not to in any way dispute you Father or Delphine in this example. Just to point out especially for English not first language users but, I suppose others who might be be inclined to the narrow view, that just because one sees a word they're used to doesn't mean the word means what one thinks it does. Rather, as you've pointed out, one needs to consider the context in which the word is found.

Right, there are some contexts in which we have to discern worship (as proskynesis of doulia) from latreia.  My only point is that this is not one of those instances. 
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« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2012, 11:52:45 AM »

You raise a very good point, Father! I never really delved into that last prayer of the anaphora before, not in that way. Thank you!

And, walter, to offer my 2 cents about the prayer Father posted,

Quote
Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith,

The "spiritual worship" being offered is the Liturgy, particularly the Eucharist, which is offered TO God ("Thine Own of Thine Own, we offer unto Thee, on behalf of all and for all...") and FOR the saints, that is, on behalf of them. The one thing we can do and the saints cannot in celebrate the Liturgy. When we do so, they are present with us. We commune with them in that mystical liturgical service, as they are united to Christ, so are we through the partaking of his Body and Blood.

Quote
Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."

This is full of intercessions for various people, including the saints, "especially" the Theotokos, but also St. John the Forerunner, the apostles, the saints of the day...and before this point (in the previous quote box) we pray for saints by the droves. "patriarchs" "prophets" "evangelists" "martyrs" "confessors" "ascetics", etc...these are all "classes" of saints, and we offer the Liturgy for ourselves, and on behalf of them (to God).
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« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2012, 12:42:50 PM »

How to offer intercession prayers? Are there any rules or guidelines?
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« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2012, 05:34:39 AM »

Quote
St .Peter, pray for me that I can have a closer relationship with God

Can I offer intercession prayer in this way?
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« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2012, 06:35:28 AM »

Quote
St .Peter, pray for me that I can have a closer relationship with God

Can I offer intercession prayer in this way?
Yes, that seems fine. If you can get your hands on a prayer book, you will find other examples. Smiley
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« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2012, 07:30:34 AM »

And remember not to pray to the Saints directly and ask them to give or provide us anything, just ask them to pray and intercede for me.Am I correct?l
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« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2012, 07:41:58 AM »

You could put it that way. many orthodox christians pray for the intercession of the saints in a way which for many people could be seen as idolatry. We have to remember that when the saints do something, it is by the will of God. For example, if a sick man is cured by a saint, it means that God has cured him through the saint, just like He would if he was cured by the prayers of a christian here on earth.

I really hope, I didn't put any of this in the wrong way. 
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« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2012, 09:27:35 AM »

The way I remember hearing it if you can ask directly for someone still on earth to help you, can ask a Saint to help you too. Though mostly we do ask for prayers.  Also rather your asking for prayers or help the Saint may help by praying or when asked for prayers may choose to help. After all many of the Saints were wonderworkers too.
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« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2012, 11:33:01 AM »

Will you chat with the saints, like chat with a Christian friend who is on earth?
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« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2012, 01:38:28 PM »

Will you chat with the saints, like chat with a Christian friend who is on earth?
Well, most orthodox christians would probably be a little more formal, but Elder Paisios did it.

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/09/more-on-relationship-between-elder.html
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« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2013, 06:54:41 AM »

I know all Christians who is in Christ will never die and they are still alive in Christ . They can still pray for us and even perform miracles under the power of God. However, I still have some struggle on the intercession prayer.

How can I know all the saints we venerate must be in the heaven and in the glory of God now?

If there is an Orthodox saint who I always venerate and pray with every day is not in heaven, but is actually in hell, or he/she is simply come from stories which men make /imagine and does not even exist in History, would I as the same as chating, praying to the air ? Is this just like making friends with, uniting and having communion with the air?
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« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2013, 10:18:19 AM »

How can I know all the saints we venerate must be in the heaven and in the glory of God now?

If there is an Orthodox saint who I always venerate and pray with every day is not in heaven, but is actually in hell, or he/she is simply come from stories which men make /imagine and does not even exist in History, would I as the same as chating, praying to the air ? Is this just like making friends with, uniting and having communion with the air?

The Church is guided by Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2013, 10:42:50 AM »

I know all Christians who is in Christ will never die and they are still alive in Christ . They can still pray for us and even perform miracles under the power of God. However, I still have some struggle on the intercession prayer.

How can I know all the saints we venerate must be in the heaven and in the glory of God now?

If there is an Orthodox saint who I always venerate and pray with every day is not in heaven, but is actually in hell, or he/she is simply come from stories which men make /imagine and does not even exist in History, would I as the same as chating, praying to the air ? Is this just like making friends with, uniting and having communion with the air?

I don't think the Church would recognize as a saint someone it believed to be in Hell.
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« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2013, 11:25:29 AM »

But we/ the church cannot see and know the private life and the heart of saints....
How about those saints which is only recognised by OO and Cathlolic, but not by EO?
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« Reply #75 on: January 01, 2013, 11:29:16 AM »

But we/ the church cannot see and know the private life of saints.... 

The Church can't? Really?
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« Reply #76 on: January 01, 2013, 02:35:53 PM »

Would it be possible that some saints show good behaviors before the people in Church. However,  when there is nobody around him/ her, he / she start to have some evil thought or even act wickedness? Would it be possible that somebody become saints due to political pressure? Would it be possible that some saints are simply come from the story which man imagine and doesn't exist?


And Many saints in Catholic Church are not recognised by the Orthodox Church. If the Catholic Christians pray to those saints which is not recognised by Orthodox Church,like Mother Teresa, St Francis, etc, do Orthodox Christians think that they are just as the same as chatting, praying to , uniting and having communion with the air?
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« Reply #77 on: January 01, 2013, 04:08:43 PM »

Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life.....

Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have  communion with him.... Undecided
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« Reply #78 on: January 01, 2013, 04:25:55 PM »

Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life.....

Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have  communion with him.... Undecided
Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans.
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« Reply #79 on: January 01, 2013, 04:38:57 PM »

Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life.....

Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have  communion with him.... Undecided
Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans.
BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints...

Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well.

If some recognised saints are actually  in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him?

If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Cry
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« Reply #80 on: January 01, 2013, 04:59:23 PM »

Walter, I'm not sure how much this impacts your question, but fwiw, in Orthodox theology no one is in hell right now. Hell is not created until the end of time at the last judgment. Thus someone would be, at most, in hades, receiving a foretaste of what they will experience eternally.
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« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2013, 05:03:45 PM »

Why not study the difference between the OO and the EO instead and make a choise between the two?
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« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2013, 05:59:33 PM »

Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life.....

Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have  communion with him.... Undecided
Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans.
BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints...

Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well.

If some recognised saints are actually  in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him?

If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Cry
Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans.
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« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2013, 06:05:52 PM »

And Many saints in Catholic Church are not recognised by the Orthodox Church. If the Catholic Christians pray to those saints which is not recognised by Orthodox Church,like Mother Teresa, St Francis, etc, do Orthodox Christians think that they are just as the same as chatting, praying to , uniting and having communion with the air?

Are you familiar with the term, ignorance?  Orthodox Christians can be ignorant by choosing to venerate Mother Teresa, St. Francis of Assisi, etc.  That doesn't mean they've broken communion with the Orthodox Church, at least not yet.
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« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2013, 11:59:37 PM »

Remember the same Holy Spirit guided good  judgement you admire in the Orthodox church's stance on Scripture and tradition is applied to the identification of Saints.
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« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2013, 05:45:49 AM »

Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life.....

Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have  communion with him.... Undecided
Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans.
BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints...

Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well.

If some recognised saints are actually  in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him?

If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Cry
Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans.
You mean  Church is assembly of all follower of Jesus as well as a community?
Except EO , all other communites,including OO are false Church and holy spirit does not guide them?
So,even OO are not the true Church which is guided by holy spirit?
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« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2013, 10:30:52 AM »

Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life.....

Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have  communion with him.... Undecided
Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans.
BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints...

Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well.

If some recognised saints are actually  in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him?

If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Cry
Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans.
You mean  Church is assembly of all follower of Jesus as well as a community?
Except EO , all other communites,including OO are false Church and holy spirit does not guide them?
So,even OO are not the true Church which is guided by holy spirit?
I am saying no such things. I am only addressing your apparent lack of trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit within the Church.
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« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2013, 11:22:07 AM »

Or if a recognised saint really love man and love God all the time, but he forsake and deny God at the end of or at the last minutes of his life.....

Then, the church would not know it and still chat , pray ,unit and have  communion with him.... Undecided
Do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? After all, the Church is not merely another assembly of humans.
BUT OO and EO also don' t venerate the same saints...

Not every EO Christians agree all saints in OO are in heaven . And not all OO Christians agree all saints in EO as well.

If some recognised saints are actually  in hell , can we really make friends ,unite and have communion with him?

If I venerate and pray to a specific saint every day, but he /she is actually in hell... Cry
Again, do you not trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church? It seems to me from your questioning that, putting aside the disagreements between EO and OO, OO and RC, RC and EO, you're bothered by your more fundamental misconception that the Church is merely an assembly of humans.
You mean  Church is assembly of all follower of Jesus as well as a community?
Except EO , all other communites,including OO are false Church and holy spirit does not guide them?
So,even OO are not the true Church which is guided by holy spirit?
I am saying no such things. I am only addressing your apparent lack of trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit within the Church.


How can I know the church are under the guidance of holy spirit to recognise every saints?How to prove it?

Every church , either true or false one also claim that they are under the guidance of holy spirit .

And as I come from charismatic,"Guidance of holy spirit" is a very familiar term to me.Almost all charismatic and Pentecostal Christians  claim they are always guided by holy spirit.
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« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2013, 11:30:55 AM »

How can I know the church are under the guidance of holy spirit to recognise the every saints?How to.prove it?

Mt 16, 18; Acts 1, 8; John 14, 26; Mt 13, 11;  John 14, 26.
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« Reply #89 on: January 02, 2013, 12:09:24 PM »

Orthodox church also allow the Christians  to offer intercession prayers to the  dead Orthodox members who are not recognised as saints, like their friends,parents and grandparents,etc.Is it better not to do ?

Because.we do not know whether they are really in heaven or not . We may have a risk of asking the help or intercession from an unsaved one which cannot really pray for us.Or We may have risk which simply chat with the air...
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« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2013, 12:30:05 PM »

Orthodox church also allow the Christians  to offer intercession prayers to the  dead Orthodox members who are not recognised as saints, like their friends,parents and grandparents,etc.Is it better not to do ?

Because.we do not know whether they are really in heaven or not . We may have a risk of asking the help or intercession from an unsaved one which cannot really pray for us.Or We may have risk which simply chat with the air...

That wouldn't be too terrible, now would it be?
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« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2013, 01:52:07 PM »

Orthodox church also allow the Christians  to offer intercession prayers to the  dead Orthodox members who are not recognised as saints, like their friends,parents and grandparents,etc.Is it better not to do ?

Because.we do not know whether they are really in heaven or not . We may have a risk of asking the help or intercession from an unsaved one which cannot really pray for us.Or We may have risk which simply chat with the air...
Walter, you sound as if you're afraid God won't hear your prayers if you don't have someone else interceding for you. If you make a mistake and ask the wrong person to pray for you, you think God won't hear you?
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« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2013, 02:02:43 PM »

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophan_the_Recluse

If some saints are only recognised by a local church , but not the church as a whole .Are they still in heaven?

Like st theophan the recluse.He is canonized by local Council of Russia Orthodox church, not the whole church.
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« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2013, 02:03:45 PM »

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.
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« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2013, 02:06:29 PM »

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.
What? Huh

How can a local synod(e.g.part of Church) represent the whole Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #95 on: January 02, 2013, 02:11:45 PM »

Only an Ecumenical Council can represent the whole Church, and one hasn't been called for some 1200 years now. Besides, canonisations in the early Church were also done by the local synods.
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« Reply #96 on: January 02, 2013, 02:33:17 PM »

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.
What? Huh

How can a local synod(e.g.part of Church) represent the whole Orthodox Church?
If the whole Church recognizes the canonization pronounced by a local synod.
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« Reply #97 on: January 02, 2013, 02:34:44 PM »

All canonisations in the Orthodox Church are done by local synods.
What? Huh

How can a local synod(e.g.part of Church) represent the whole Orthodox Church?
If the whole Church recognizes the canonization pronounced by a local synod.

No one never opposed.
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« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2013, 03:02:05 PM »

Can any former Protestant Christian share their experience which they get closer to God after they offer intercession prayers and pray with the saints?

Hope this can encourage me. Smiley
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« Reply #99 on: January 02, 2013, 03:14:00 PM »

i only prayed once to a saint before i became orthodox. it is not something you always have to do before you are orthodox.
after you become orthodox, it all slowly makes sense.
so don't rush it, i was an inquirer for 2 years before i asked the intercession of the saints for something personal.
i was singing along with the prayers in the liturgy in this time, but without fully understanding this aspect.
i didn't realise how protestant i was until i became orthodox, and then gradually left the prejudices (intercession of saints etc.) behind.

it is more important at this stage for you to pray to God, study the Bible and read about orthodoxy.
if one area confuses you a lot, move onto the next area. it will all make sense later, as God leads you.
 Smiley
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« Reply #100 on: January 02, 2013, 07:20:42 PM »

Quote
Can any former Protestant Christian share their experience which they get closer to God after they offer intercession prayers and pray with the saints?

Hope this can encourage me.

I wasn't something that I could control voluntary, but after praticing it, as humble as possibly, more and more, after some months I felt that it indeed helps to come closer to God in the way of struggling more succesfully against passions..
Especially when I read an akathist to a saint I feel that this saint is living and that he's a friend, who prays for me as well. But it was also important to me not to forget that Christ is the centre of our life and that when I feel grace during a prayer to a saint, that this grace is coming from Christ through the saint, and not directly from the saint.
I've prayers which I say daily to my favourite saints, and I you just feel and know that they're praying for me. That gives me also encouragement.
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« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2013, 09:38:53 AM »

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?
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« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2013, 09:42:48 AM »

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Isaac is remembered for his spiritual homilies on the inner life, which have a human breadth and theological depth that transcends the Nestorian Christianity of the Church to which he belonged. They survive in Syriac manuscripts and in Greek and Arabic translations. From Greek they were translated into Russian.

Isaac consciously avoided writing on topics that were disputed or discussed in the contemporary theological debates. This gives Isaac a certain ecumenical potential, and is probably the reason that he has come to be venerated and appreciated among many different Christian traditions.

More quotes on his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Isaac_the_Syrian
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« Reply #103 on: January 07, 2013, 12:23:22 PM »

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Isaac is remembered for his spiritual homilies on the inner life, which have a human breadth and theological depth that transcends the Nestorian Christianity of the Church to which he belonged. They survive in Syriac manuscripts and in Greek and Arabic translations. From Greek they were translated into Russian.

Isaac consciously avoided writing on topics that were disputed or discussed in the contemporary theological debates. This gives Isaac a certain ecumenical potential, and is probably the reason that he has come to be venerated and appreciated among many different Christian traditions.

More quotes on his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Isaac_the_Syrian
Although st Isaac have many wondwrful written works, could understand and show great love and mercy of God, he was still a member of Assyrian Church of East in his life.
Is it not good to recognise a Christian who is outside the true Church as the saint?
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« Reply #104 on: January 07, 2013, 01:38:38 PM »

I have just realized that St. Isaac of Syria was from Assyrian church of East.Why would Orthodox Church venerate a christian who is outside the church and come from heretic group?

Quote from: Wikipedia
Isaac is remembered for his spiritual homilies on the inner life, which have a human breadth and theological depth that transcends the Nestorian Christianity of the Church to which he belonged. They survive in Syriac manuscripts and in Greek and Arabic translations. From Greek they were translated into Russian.

Isaac consciously avoided writing on topics that were disputed or discussed in the contemporary theological debates. This gives Isaac a certain ecumenical potential, and is probably the reason that he has come to be venerated and appreciated among many different Christian traditions.

More quotes on his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Isaac_the_Syrian
Although st Isaac have many wondwrful written works, could understand and show great love and mercy of God, he was still a member of Assyrian Church of East in his life.
Is it not good to recognise a Christian who is outside the true Church as the saint?

But he was Orthodox, not Nestorian. So there you go.
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« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2013, 09:07:52 AM »

Reading posts on this thread, one question kept recurring in my mind: do Orthodox only pray to official saints? Could someone clarify for me.
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« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2013, 09:56:24 AM »

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant
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« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2013, 10:49:47 AM »

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.
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« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2013, 02:37:40 PM »

What are the teachings of church fathers about intercession prayers?
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« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2013, 02:39:48 PM »

What are the teachings of church fathers about intercession prayers?

I'm a little lazy, so here are some quotes.
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« Reply #110 on: January 15, 2013, 02:58:48 PM »

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought/assumed before (because that's also how it is with us Catholics) but I was wondering now after reading the conversation with walter1234 about knowing that the saint you're praying to really is a saint.
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« Reply #111 on: January 15, 2013, 03:10:36 PM »

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought/assumed before (because that's also how it is with us Catholics) but I was wondering now after reading the conversation with walter1234 about knowing that the saint you're praying to really is a saint.

The same thing happens in the Catholic Church.  How does, for example, Pope John Paul II become beatified or canonized if there is no one praying for his intercession and then having that prayer granted?  Of course liturgically he won't be commemorated until at least beatified, but after his death I've already have priests during Mass say "Pope John Paul the Great, Pray for Us."  Right or wrong, that is part of the process and it is the same both in the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #112 on: January 15, 2013, 03:20:30 PM »

And remember not to pray to the Saints directly and ask them to give or provide us anything, just ask them to pray and intercede for me.Am I correct?l

Good question. I've never been completely sure about that one way or the other.

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« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2013, 03:23:45 PM »

Dear Peter J,

It is quite natural for me to ask for the intercession of the uncanonized righteous in my personal prayers. 

I would not expect that to occur duing Church services, however there are certainly exceptions there.  I wouldn't be suprised if I were visiting a monastery and we asked the intercession of a righteous departed Geronda, but I would be suprised if my parish priest petitioned his YiaYia! 

love, elephant

Agree with elephant. Sometimes how a Saint becomes recognised is the local population venerating them and reporting the answered prayers.

Thanks for clarifying. That's what I thought/assumed before (because that's also how it is with us Catholics) but I was wondering now after reading the conversation with walter1234 about knowing that the saint you're praying to really is a saint.

The same thing happens in the Catholic Church.  How does, for example, Pope John Paul II become beatified or canonized if there is no one praying for his intercession and then having that prayer granted?  Of course liturgically he won't be commemorated until at least beatified, but after his death I've already have priests during Mass say "Pope John Paul the Great, Pray for Us."  Right or wrong, that is part of the process and it is the same both in the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks, although that wasn't so much what I was asking. I already know that's how it is in the Catholic Church; I was asking whether it is different in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2013, 03:57:04 PM »

And remember not to pray to the Saints directly and ask them to give or provide us anything, just ask them to pray and intercede for me.Am I correct?l

Good question. I've never been completely sure about that one way or the other.


One can do both, though perhaps intercession is requested more often, don't know.  This was one of my most difficult struggles coming to Orthodoxy from Protestantism,  but after a long struggle someone finally put it in a way that I got.  Just remember anything done by a Saint is done by the power of God.
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