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Author Topic: Ohio priest arrested, charged with trying to meet children for sex  (Read 5154 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 21, 2012, 06:46:50 PM »

Fr. Patrick Hughes was arrested in Columbus, Ohio on Wednesday. He was charged in a sting operation after he allegedly tried to arrange meetings with children for sex.

From the article:
Quote
Sheriff Zach Scott says the 56-year-old Hughes was arrested on charges of attempted rape and attempted unlawful sexual contact with a minor.

Hughes remained in Franklin County Jail Thursday night, where no attorney was listed for him.
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2012, 07:00:24 PM »

You know, when I see stories like this while watching the news, I usually say, "I've already seen this episode..."
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2012, 07:22:09 PM »

Excellent response from bishop and parish. This is how all such matters should be dealt with.
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2012, 07:28:53 PM »

Is it right though, to entice assumed  pedophiles by fake ads like these?
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2012, 07:53:36 PM »

Is it right though, to entice assumed  pedophiles by fake ads like these?

It was the priest who made the ad.
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2012, 07:57:12 PM »

Is it right though, to entice assumed  pedophiles by fake ads like these?

It was the priest who made the ad.
Ok. I thought it was some under-cover officer.
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2012, 08:01:15 PM »

Is it right though, to entice assumed  pedophiles by fake ads like these?

It was the priest who made the ad.
Ok. I thought it was some under-cover officer.

Nada. But thank God the authorities responded to it in order to arrest him before any legit people responded.
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2012, 08:33:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Excellent response from bishop and parish. This is how all such matters should be dealt with.

Agreed which is the only reason this can be called news and not, "Oh, this again?"

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 11:47:49 PM »

Ugh, it sucks hearing about this, so close to home. I hope the folks at Holy Annunciation give this investigation all they've got, as I know they will. Wolves can show up anywhere in the flock. All we can do is hope that they get dogpiled by the sheep and smacked away by the shepherds.
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 12:05:17 AM »

A sad reminder that we Orthodox are not immune from the scandals which have befallen our Roman Catholic friends and neighbors. A reminder that mandatory celibacy is not the issue, homosexuality is not the issue - the very essence of our sinful nature is the issue. Also a reminder that you WILL find pedophilia among any group of adults who have the opportunity to work in a field which serves children or in settings among them. Don't despair and pray for all involved - especially all of the children who have been victimized by adults abusing their status as adults.
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 12:53:56 AM »

Must be a Roman Catholic priest Convert, to Holy Orthodoxy...It Shouldn't be allowed, especially Clergy from Rome also other faiths....Lay Catholic's , Protestant's , studying to be Orthodox Clergy fine ....... police  

Holy Orthodoxy shouldn't allow any Roman Clergy becoming Orthodox Clergy...To many Bad Apples out there.......  police

Just popped in to give my thought's on this subject....... police
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 01:00:12 AM »

Must be a Roman Catholic priest Convert, to Holy Orthodoxy...

Classy as always, Stashko.
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2012, 03:51:29 AM »

Is this the second orthodox priest this year to be caught ??

What is it with priests wanting kids ? Why, whats wrong with them ? I mean we all strieve iam from sexual sin but pedophilia is destructive to the victim, family and believers Also the priests soul. We have to pray for him. But, I still don't understand why priests like little boys !??!??
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2012, 03:59:11 AM »

Yesssssssss stashko is back.
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2012, 04:57:18 AM »

Yesssssssss stashko is back.

YES! When I was a lurker I always enjoyed his posts.

Hello, Stashko.
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2012, 05:56:04 AM »

Is it right though, to entice assumed  pedophiles by fake ads like these?
Yes. That's how sting operations work.  But I don't think this is how it happened this time.
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2012, 06:14:12 AM »

I am so pleased to see that Metropolitan Savas of Pittsburgh took such prompt and proper action in this matter.  His Eminence has experience with these type of matters.  He was the Chancellor of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America who, a few years ago, went thought every priest's file and facilitated effectively correcting all anomalous situations he was able to detect.  I am aware of two such situations of which he facilitated definitive corrective action.  Some time after he completed that thorough review project, the Holy Archdiocese re-qualified for insurance protection for this type of abominable behavior of its clerics.  The suspension of Fr. Nicholas Hughes (this name "Patrick" must be a secular name of which we weren't privy), is properly prominently posted on the website of the Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh's website.

I feel compelled to add that I've know Fr. Nicholas for many years (we are not friends, though) and have found him to be a well versed theologian, an enlightened preacher, and a fine liturgist, with a beautiful voice, effectively executing the Byzantine hymnology in both English and Greek.  I never found anything peculiar about him or his behavior.  I saw nothing in him that would have led to suspicion that he could engage in such utterly deplorable behavior; neither had I ever heard of such behavior relavent to him.  May God help him correct this horrendous disorder of which he appears to be afflicted; and may He continue to inspire Metropolitan Savas as he oversees this matter as it progresses.

He has been the Hieromonk for the St. Theodore the Studite Monastic Brotherhood in Galion, Ohio, which he founded, and had been an Interim Presiding Priest for the Columbus' Annunciation Cathedral for only the past year or so.  Years ago he had been with the St. Gregory Palamas Monastery near Hayesville, Oh.   The Columbus assignment was scheduled to conclude next week if I'm not mistaken, in that a new Presiding Priest has been assigned.

I do not know where Fr. Nicholas was educated.  He is a convert from Roman Catholicism and was in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of N. America prior to his being transferred into the GOAA's Diocese of Pittsburgh in the mid-1980's; he was initially in an "on-loan" status.

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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2012, 11:54:33 AM »

A sad reminder that we Orthodox are not immune from the scandals which have befallen our Roman Catholic friends and neighbors.

This is true, we are certainly no more immune from sin than anyone else. Hoever, what made those cases a scandal, not just over individual priests, but a scandal of the Roman Catholic Church was the behaviour of those who covered up the crimes of those priests, took no effective action, and allowed it to happen again. I'm delighted to see that Met. Savas and others have learned from the mistakes of the Catholic Church and have decided to take such firm, transparent, and immediate action. God bless him for that.
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2012, 01:14:22 PM »

A sad reminder that we Orthodox are not immune from the scandals which have befallen our Roman Catholic friends and neighbors.

This is true, we are certainly no more immune from sin than anyone else. Hoever, what made those cases a scandal, not just over individual priests, but a scandal of the Roman Catholic Church was the behaviour of those who covered up the crimes of those priests, took no effective action, and allowed it to happen again. I'm delighted to see that Met. Savas and others have learned from the mistakes of the Catholic Church and have decided to take such firm, transparent, and immediate action. God bless him for that.

Being as personally familiar with the true inner workings of chancery offices and bishops across our Orthodox universe as opposed to the 'urban legends' regarding these operations as expressed online or that you would hear at parish meetings,  I can only say that to presume that all of our hierarchs and their advisors would have reacted boldly and with a firm and swift hand of justice had cases of pedophilia within Orthodoxy been known in decades leading up to the Roman scandals which came to light in the late 1990's is probably a heartfelt, but ultimately naive hope. (Just as in the Roman Church, no doubt some, if not most of our Church leaders would done the right thing - but..not all....) 

As much as any of you, I want to believe that our leaders would not have gathered the wagons into a circle in an effort to 'wait it out', but I would be lying if I truly told anyone with any strong degree of certainty that we would not have done so. Far too many priests and even bishops shopped jurisdictions, switched allegiances etc... over the years, usually with the welcomed consent of their former bishop.

It is in the nature of human organizations to protect one's own and to disbelieve the worst about family, friends and colleagues.  I am glad that we have learned lessons from the mismanagement of the Romans, but as I said we should reflect with sorrow and prayer rather than any sense of jubilation that we are better than they.
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2012, 10:35:50 PM »

Metropolitan Savas sent his Chancellor to interact with the leaders and faithful of Annunciation Columbus since Fr. Nicholas' arrest. and His Eminence is visiting Sts. C &H in Mansfield, Ohio, were Fr. Nicholas for quite a few years.
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2012, 08:49:20 AM »

Metropolitan Savas sent his Chancellor to interact with the leaders and faithful of Annunciation Columbus since Fr. Nicholas' arrest. and His Eminence is visiting Sts. C &H in Mansfield, Ohio, were Fr. Nicholas for quite a few years.

Please remember the faithful of these churches in Ohio this Sunday in your prayers. Fr. Michael Ellis, now at SS. C and H, is from my parish and a friend of my family and grew up with my children. He has had a tough week as his mom is recovering from open heart surgery on Tuesday which followed a back fracture caused by a fall in church a few weeks ago. I am sure that the healing of the parishes will be not unlike the healing of our bodies. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2012, 10:08:07 AM »

Back during the summer of 1996, just after my conversion to Orthodoxy, I visited Father Nicholas and the small monastic brotherhood (just two monks at that time) at St. Gregory Palamas Greek Orthodox monastery in Hayesville, Ohio.  I had a very nice pilgrimage there.  They gave me a room in the guesthouse with access to an excellent library.  It was peaceful and quiet and conducive to prayer.  They had a very nice rather new (at the time) monastic building with a living room to receive visitors, a huge dining room for meal and a spacious kitchen. They also had a nice icon studio. The monastic dormitory was on the second floor.  They had a free-standing Byzantine style church down the hill from the monastic residence, complete with a dome and beautiful iconography. They showed me wonderful hospitality and were very gracious to me as a newly-christmated Orthodox Christian. The first day I was there, after the morning liturgy, Father Nicholas cooked me breakfast.  I remember that he made hashbrowns and coffee and it was delicious.  I had a very nice time there and I saw NOTHING when I was there neither in Father Nicholas' behavior nor in anyone else's behavior that was suspect.  I met a new convert who had just been baptized there at the monastery church.  I met an Antiochian fellow who came in and worked in the Icon Studio and I met a Melkite priest and his wife there that were considering returning to Orthodoxy. 

I grieve for the monastic community and for the parish Father Nicholas was serving.  May the Lord bring healing and peace.
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2012, 03:48:49 PM »

Metropolitan Savas sent his Chancellor to interact with the leaders and faithful of Annunciation Columbus since Fr. Nicholas' arrest. and His Eminence is visiting Sts. C &H in Mansfield, Ohio, were Fr. Nicholas for quite a few years.

Please remember the faithful of these churches in Ohio this Sunday in your prayers. Fr. Michael Ellis, now at SS. C and H, is from my parish and a friend of my family and grew up with my children. He has had a tough week as his mom is recovering from open heart surgery on Tuesday which followed a back fracture caused by a fall in church a few weeks ago. I am sure that the healing of the parishes will be not unlike the healing of our bodies. Lord, have mercy.

I wish I'd have seen this before church today.  Thank you for sharing this information; Fr. Michael is wonderful.
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2012, 06:45:15 PM »

Must be a Roman Catholic priest Convert, to Holy Orthodoxy...It Shouldn't be allowed, especially Clergy from Rome also other faiths....Lay Catholic's , Protestant's , studying to be Orthodox Clergy fine ....... police  

Holy Orthodoxy shouldn't allow any Roman Clergy becoming Orthodox Clergy...To many Bad Apples out there.......  police

Just popped in to give my thought's on this subject....... police

Nice job with the profiling and putting them all in the same basket.   Did you forget this ?  I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first.  We ALL pray this at every Divine Liturgy, are you exempt?  The point I am trying to make here is we are all sinners, lets worry about own sins and not consign all Roman Catholic convert clergy to the dust bin.

Seraphim

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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2012, 07:29:32 PM »

Converted Viking,
Read up on some Stashko and you will figure out his schtick.
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2012, 07:52:04 PM »

Converted Viking,
Read up on some Stashko and you will figure out his schtick.


Do I really want to do that?   I picked Seraphim as my name for my chrismation because I have such a bad temper.  If I had a thimble of St. Seraphims humility and prayer life I would be a lot better off. I ask for his help and prayers daily.  My wife remained in the RC and I left for Orthodoxy.  When she talked to Father at my church when I became a catechumen she told him that she fully supported me in what I was doing I would not be an Orthodox Christian today if she had made a huge fuss and dug her heals in. It is preferred that both spouses convert and not just one due to the problems it could cause in the marriage.   My wife a Roman Catholic fully backs me an Orthodox Christian and I really am getting tired of the diatribe against Catholics, lets be constructive and pray for them. I think Stashko and I will have a bloody royal fight and I'm not going there. 

Seraphim
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2012, 08:28:11 PM »

Someone should seriously start a thread called, "Apophthegmata of Stashko," so we can all imbibe of his wisdom as from a common fountain.
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2012, 09:57:59 PM »

Someone should seriously start a thread called, "Apophthegmata of Stashko," so we can all imbibe of his wisdom as from a common fountain.

I mean no offense to Iconodule with my comments here but it struck me as funny to see the word - 'apophthegmata' in a sentence. I know, if one read the Desert Fathers at some time in one's life, you might be familiar with this word - it is literally a collection of aphorisms. Otherwise, I suspect it is an unknown term.

The funny thing is that we will engage in heated discussions here online about English in liturgy as opposed to Koine Greek or Church Slavonic or Geez or whatever and many of us who support the vernacular (as do I) will flip back and use a word like this (as I have done from time to time as well) ... Outside of church history students, seminarians and very few lay folks in the Church, this word would totally unfamiliar to even a well educated observer.

It's great for Scrabble but you will not likely find 'apophthegmata' in a Jeopardy category. Of well, we had our Church festival this weekend and I am tired and probably overly peevish!

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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2012, 10:40:10 PM »

Apothegmata Stashkum. The mix of Greek and Latin just reeks of ecumenical panheresy.
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2012, 04:39:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Converted Viking,
Read up on some Stashko and you will figure out his schtick.

I often like Stashko, but if members of this forum and community are expressing that they are offended by his schtick, then by definition his shtick has crossed the line, even if being facetious.  The line of what is offensive or not is entirely determined by the sentiments of the audience, and we have many Catholic posters here, and also several folks who have converted from Catholicism to Orthodox, we should be more careful not to step on their feelings. Further considering the context, I'd say it was all the more grossly inappropriate.  This is why polemics aren't generally allowed in the first place Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2012, 05:03:21 PM »

  Shocked I HATE stories like this  Cry

I used to judge Catholic Priests…Lord have mercy on me.
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2012, 10:52:56 PM »

I've said it once, I'll say it again.

Stashko is not a cradle Serbian Orthodox.  He's a Croatian Roman Catholic Stepenic worshipping "convert" (if that, at all) who is here to cast aspersions on the Orthodox.

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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2012, 11:52:31 PM »

I've said it once, I'll say it again.

Stashko is not a cradle Serbian Orthodox.  He's a Croatian Roman Catholic Stepenic worshipping "convert" (if that, at all) who is here to cast aspersions on the Orthodox.



That would honestly make me feel so much better.
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2012, 12:45:00 AM »

I completely agree with what was done, but to call the father a "wolf"?

We all fall into sins, we should be able to see that. Often it happens slowly, building up, we slowly justify it to ourselves until we are doing truly awful things and feel like we can't escape. He was a monastic, perhaps there was a reason for this. But to call him a wolf? What do we know? He could have been a saint in every other regard except for controlling his lust. My heart goes out to those that may have been affected by it, but we should pray for him, for those affected, and for the Metropolitan, not denounce and declare this man an enemy of the faith.
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2012, 01:10:25 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 
I completely agree with what was done, but to call the father a "wolf"?

We all fall into sins, we should be able to see that. Often it happens slowly, building up, we slowly justify it to ourselves until we are doing truly awful things and feel like we can't escape. He was a monastic, perhaps there was a reason for this. But to call him a wolf? What do we know? He could have been a saint in every other regard except for controlling his lust. My heart goes out to those that may have been affected by it, but we should pray for him, for those affected, and for the Metropolitan, not denounce and declare this man an enemy of the faith.

Shepherds are not perfect, they make mistakes and sin like the rest of us, but their primary goal is flaws and all to care for the sheep.  Wolves are sinners like us too, but they are different from shepherds, wolves eat sheep and do them harm.  We expect protection from even sinful shepherds, and we expect wolves to be wolves and harm the sheep.  We try then not to put wolves in charge of the sheep, and when such occurs, there is no wrong in calling a wolf a wolf.  The results speak for themselves.  We should indeed pray for this man, but in the sense that we need to sincerely love, forgive, and pray for our enemies Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2012, 01:25:14 AM »

I completely agree with what was done, but to call the father a "wolf"?

We all fall into sins, we should be able to see that. Often it happens slowly, building up, we slowly justify it to ourselves until we are doing truly awful things and feel like we can't escape. He was a monastic, perhaps there was a reason for this. But to call him a wolf? What do we know? He could have been a saint in every other regard except for controlling his lust. My heart goes out to those that may have been affected by it, but we should pray for him, for those affected, and for the Metropolitan, not denounce and declare this man an enemy of the faith.

I will almost always defend the priest in these allegations as I am always wary of fraud, but honestly, a saint in all other regards...except a penchant for sodomizing kids...kind of rubs me the wrong way.  That's going a bit too far.  A priest is supposed to have a wife, and if she isn't being faithful to him then fine, just do what the rest of us do and look at bizarre porn, but don't go setting up ads to go all Spartan on a kid.
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2012, 11:05:11 AM »

I completely agree with what was done, but to call the father a "wolf"?

We all fall into sins, we should be able to see that. Often it happens slowly, building up, we slowly justify it to ourselves until we are doing truly awful things and feel like we can't escape. He was a monastic, perhaps there was a reason for this. But to call him a wolf? What do we know? He could have been a saint in every other regard except for controlling his lust. My heart goes out to those that may have been affected by it, but we should pray for him, for those affected, and for the Metropolitan, not denounce and declare this man an enemy of the faith.

I will almost always defend the priest in these allegations as I am always wary of fraud, but honestly, a saint in all other regards...except a penchant for sodomizing kids...kind of rubs me the wrong way.  That's going a bit too far.  A priest is supposed to have a wife, and if she isn't being faithful to him then fine, just do what the rest of us do and look at bizarre porn, but don't go setting up ads to go all Spartan on a kid.

Christ didn't have a wife...

Unless that fragment...

 Wink
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2012, 03:01:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Converted Viking,
Read up on some Stashko and you will figure out his schtick.

I often like Stashko, but if members of this forum and community are expressing that they are offended by his schtick, then by definition his shtick has crossed the line, even if being facetious.  The line of what is offensive or not is entirely determined by the sentiments of the audience, and we have many Catholic posters here, and also several folks who have converted from Catholicism to Orthodox, we should be more careful not to step on their feelings. Further considering the context, I'd say it was all the more grossly inappropriate.  This is why polemics aren't generally allowed in the first place Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

That's fine and all, but I suspect that many people take Stashko far more seriously that he takes himself.  I was only suggesting some further context for Converted Viking.  As much as I disagree with the actual words of Stashko, there has grown in my heart a warm place for him.  Maybe I just appreciate absurdity for the sake of absurdity.   police police police police police police police police police police
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2012, 03:08:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


That's fine and all, but I suspect that many people take Stashko far more seriously that he takes himself.  I was only suggesting some further context for Converted Viking.  As much as I disagree with the actual words of Stashko, there has grown in my heart a warm place for him.  Maybe I just appreciate absurdity for the sake of absurdity.   police police police police police police police police police police

I told y'all, I also very much like Stashko, but facetious or not, given the serious context of this discussion, that was inappropriate, distasteful, and disrespectful at a lot of levels  Undecided

, just do what the rest of us do and look at bizarre porn, but don't go setting up ads to go all Spartan on a kid.

Speak for yourself, but I have no dealings with such demonically energized filth as pornography and even if I accept my priests as humble sinners, I can only hope that they are also wise enough in the Spirit to avoid such self-destruction Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2012, 06:12:21 PM »

In a shocking end to an already disheartening case, Fr. Patrick Nicholas Hughes today pled guilty to the charge of attempted rape, for soliciting sex online from whom he thought were two children. They turned out to be sheriff's deputies.

From the article:
Quote
"I am abjectly sorry for, and I know I cannot repair, but nevertheless need to express that sorry to everybody," said Hughes.

As part of a plea deal, the judge sentenced the Hughes to six years in prison and five years post community control.
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« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2012, 06:55:38 PM »

Wow.
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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2012, 08:10:30 PM »

Lord have mercy
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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2012, 09:12:31 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2012, 09:36:00 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.
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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2012, 09:46:41 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

Attempting to solicit sex from minors doesn't deserve jail time??? Seriously???
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« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2012, 09:54:47 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

Attempting to solicit sex from minors doesn't deserve jail time??? Seriously???
No, when you don't talk to an actual minor. Some other penalty or whatever. But 6 years in prison is way over the top.
Reminds me of a joke, during Stalin's purges two convicts meet: One got 10 years another 5. The one that got 5 years says: I only got 5 because I didn't do anything, what did you do to get 10?
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« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2012, 01:57:02 AM »

Metropolitan Savas celebrated the Sacrament of Holy Unction, the sacrament of healing, for the Columbus faithful in the Cathedral this week.
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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2012, 02:17:06 AM »

"10tv.com", WBNS TV 10, Columbus, Ohio, has a video report of Fr. Nicholas' sentencing in the Common Pleas Court of Franklin County, he having pleaded guilty.  The judge ordered a 6 year prison term, nearly as much on probation thereafter.  Fr. Nicholas quotes from scripture, "Scandals will come, but woe be on the people that they come by."  The reporter notes that the Archdiocese of America stated that the Metropolis of Pittsburgh will convene  a Spiritual Court to address Fr. Nicholas' behavior. 
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« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2012, 08:01:36 AM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.
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« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2012, 08:48:06 AM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

Attempting to solicit sex from minors doesn't deserve jail time??? Seriously???
No, when you don't talk to an actual minor. Some other penalty or whatever. But 6 years in prison is way over the top.
Reminds me of a joke, during Stalin's purges two convicts meet: One got 10 years another 5. The one that got 5 years says: I only got 5 because I didn't do anything, what did you do to get 10?
You are wrong.  Making an overt attempt with intent to complete the offense, which is what I believe he did, is a crime deserving the sentence he received.  Had he actually completed his attempts, he would be looking at decades.

In respect to his only attempting with no real victim, wives have attempted to hire hit men to murder their husbands, but contacts LE officials instead, making no "real" victim and still been charged.  There is no difference.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 08:51:47 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2012, 08:53:07 AM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.
Indeed, being the reason it's called Crime Prevention.
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« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2012, 09:45:01 AM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.
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« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2012, 10:14:59 AM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes



Oh crap, I've played a lot of GTA as a teenager.  How many attempted murders have I committed???
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« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2012, 10:57:24 AM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
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« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2012, 11:04:15 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What is really starting to outright embarrass me is the sheer amount apologists for child molestation here, and not just on this thread but others.  Sad

Whether the priest in this instance molested an actual child or not, such were his intentions, and had it been a real kid such probably would have been his actions.  What, are folks suddenly comfortable with priests trolling the internet looking for child victims? Lord have His mercy!!

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes



Oh crap, I've played a lot of GTA as a teenager.  How many attempted murders have I committed???

I played it too, but a lot of Fathers just might suggest that the extreme and gratuitous violence of such entertainment is very negatively influencing on our spiritual development. The difference between violent video games and violent literature/films is that in video games it is a virtual reality, you act out and think and simulate the violence directly, you are not a passive observer.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 11:06:40 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2012, 05:44:02 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.
If they knowing allowed of facilitated the criminal action, yes.  Penn State.
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« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2012, 05:47:51 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
My guess is, there was an abundance of evidence a which could have resulted in a more severe charge and punishment, so a balance was established for a guilty plea to ensure conviction and a minimal sentence, but I'm only guessing.  I've seen it before.
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« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2012, 05:50:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What is really starting to outright embarrass me is the sheer amount apologists for child molestation here, and not just on this thread but others.  Sad

Whether the priest in this instance molested an actual child or not, such were his intentions, and had it been a real kid such probably would have been his actions.  What, are folks suddenly comfortable with priests trolling the internet looking for child victims? Lord have His mercy!!

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes



Oh crap, I've played a lot of GTA as a teenager.  How many attempted murders have I committed???

I played it too, but a lot of Fathers just might suggest that the extreme and gratuitous violence of such entertainment is very negatively influencing on our spiritual development. The difference between violent video games and violent literature/films is that in video games it is a virtual reality, you act out and think and simulate the violence directly, you are not a passive observer.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
You are in for a real treat when you hear someone star blaming the child in these cases. 
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« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2012, 06:14:33 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
My guess is, there was an abundance of evidence a which could have resulted in a more severe charge and punishment, so a balance was established for a guilty plea to ensure conviction and a minimal sentence, but I'm only guessing.  I've seen it before.

I wouldn't be too surprised- a hard-drive full of child porn is all that it takes to push the sentencing into the stratosphere. Which could give me more fun of pointing out how much nonsense we have about imaginary things in our legal system if the porn had been Bart or Lisa Simpson renderings  laugh

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What is really starting to outright embarrass me is the sheer amount apologists for child molestation here, and not just on this thread but others.  Sad


I hope I'm not being seen as an "apologist" for child molestation- just with the facts of this case as they've been presented to us I merely find it funny that someone can legally "attempt" to molest a person who has never existed. Yes, it is disturbing- far more disturbing is that as a parish priest he must have come into contact with numerous REAL children each day.


You are in for a real treat when you hear someone star blaming the child in these cases. 

That would make my day. "It's all the fault of the children. Those sexy, imaginary children, with their wayward non-realness, and tantalizing fantastical nature! Who could blame him? It's like them kids were the stuff that dreams are made of."
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« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2012, 06:21:26 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
My guess is, there was an abundance of evidence a which could have resulted in a more severe charge and punishment, so a balance was established for a guilty plea to ensure conviction and a minimal sentence, but I'm only guessing.  I've seen it before.

I wouldn't be too surprised- a hard-drive full of child porn is all that it takes to push the sentencing into the stratosphere. Which could give me more fun of pointing out how much nonsense we have about imaginary things in our legal system if the porn had been Bart or Lisa Simpson renderings  laugh

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What is really starting to outright embarrass me is the sheer amount apologists for child molestation here, and not just on this thread but others.  Sad


I hope I'm not being seen as an "apologist" for child molestation- just with the facts of this case as they've been presented to us I merely find it funny that someone can legally "attempt" to molest a person who has never existed. Yes, it is disturbing- far more disturbing is that as a parish priest he must have come into contact with numerous REAL children each day.


You are in for a real treat when you hear someone star blaming the child in these cases.  

That would make my day. "It's all the fault of the children. Those sexy, imaginary children, with their wayward non-realness, and tantalizing fantastical nature! Who could blame him? It's like them kids were the stuff that dreams are made of."
You are having a real problem with connecting the dots on this one.  Let me illuminate you with a little fact.  The USA is not the only nation with these sorts of laws.  In fact, most countries have them.  Probably a good reason if you want to look into it.

It may be useful to also learn the difference between imagery and pornographic imagery, legally speaking.
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« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2012, 06:24:25 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
Not quite. There are plenty of innocent people that have either plead guilty or no contest to crimes they never committed.

Thank God FormerReformer is here for much needed sanity.
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« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2012, 06:28:31 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
Not quite. There are plenty of innocent people that have either plead guilty or no contest to crimes they never committed.

Thank God FormerReformer is here for much needed sanity.
The first part, I fully agree.  It happens all the time.

The second, no sanity in anything he has said so far.
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« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2012, 07:59:43 PM »

I don't see FormerReformer at all saying that this priest didn't do something horribly wrong.  I agree that there is a certain element of absurdity in the whole thing, BUT I am also grateful that he was arrested.  I pray the time in prison will be a great mercy for him where hopefully he can work out his salvation.

Edit:  And thank God that there were not actual victims in this instance, and I pray that there have not been actual victims in the past.
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« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2012, 08:15:12 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

Surely there is a more appropriate offence on your statute-books? Something along the lines of "commit [X minor offence] with intent to commit [Y major offence]".
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« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2012, 09:09:42 PM »


You are having a real problem with connecting the dots on this one.  Let me illuminate you with a little fact.  The USA is not the only nation with these sorts of laws.  In fact, most countries have them.  Probably a good reason if you want to look into it.

So, because most countries have gone crazy, we should, too? Although, since about WWI it's usually more along the lines of us starting the crazy laws and the rest of the world following suit. Regardless- attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist would under any other circumstances constitute insanity.

Quote
It may be useful to also learn the difference between imagery and pornographic imagery, legally speaking.

I'm not sure what in my previous posts would have made you think I didn't know the difference between the two- unless it was the Simpson's reference, in which case I refer you to Rule 34. And yes, in most countries- the US included- cartoon pornographic renderings of an underage character still constitutes as child pornography.

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

Surely there is a more appropriate offence on your statute-books? Something along the lines of "commit [X minor offence] with intent to commit [Y major offence]".

There are- Attempted solicitation of a minor with intent would cover the reported facts of this case.
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« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2012, 09:17:29 PM »


You are having a real problem with connecting the dots on this one.  Let me illuminate you with a little fact.  The USA is not the only nation with these sorts of laws.  In fact, most countries have them.  Probably a good reason if you want to look into it.

So, because most countries have gone crazy, we should, too? Although, since about WWI it's usually more along the lines of us starting the crazy laws and the rest of the world following suit. Regardless- attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist would under any other circumstances constitute insanity.

Quote
It may be useful to also learn the difference between imagery and pornographic imagery, legally speaking.

I'm not sure what in my previous posts would have made you think I didn't know the difference between the two- unless it was the Simpson's reference, in which case I refer you to Rule 34. And yes, in most countries- the US included- cartoon pornographic renderings of an underage character still constitutes as child pornography.

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

Surely there is a more appropriate offence on your statute-books? Something along the lines of "commit [X minor offence] with intent to commit [Y major offence]".

There are- Attempted solicitation of a minor with intent would cover the reported facts of this case.

It's ok you don't understand law, but with that lack of understanding you probably should not call it insanity.  You are certainly free to disagree.  I disagree with a lot, but I make sure I know what's its saying first.
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« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2012, 09:19:27 PM »

Good grief, so Kerdy where was the attempted rape in this case?
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« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2012, 09:31:57 PM »

Good grief, so Kerdy where was the attempted rape in this case?
Any attempt to engage in sexual relations without legal consent is attempted rape.  A minor is unable to provide legal consent to and adult.  He apparently was actively looking for (attempting) someone who fits into the aforementioned details.  

Any more good griefs I can clarify for you?

It's called overt action.  Once that occurs, the crime has been committed.  Let me give you an example.  If you plan a bank robbery down to the finest detail, you have committed no crime.  On e you go and purchase the mask you plan to cover your face, that action constitutes criminal activity.  In fact, if you and a friend plan this and you purchase the mask but he doesnt, he too is guilty of conspiracy to commit the crime. He (the priest) overtly searched for these victims.  Understand?
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« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2012, 09:35:08 PM »

Good grief, so Kerdy where was the attempted rape in this case?
Any attempt to engage in sexual relations without legal consent is attempted rape.  A minor is unable to provide legal consent to and adult.  He apparently was actively looking for (attempting) someone who fits into the aforementioned details. 

Any more good griefs I can clarify for you?
But there was NO attempted rape involved to any such minor. As FR said, "Attempted solicitation of a minor with intent would cover the reported facts of this case."
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« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2012, 09:36:19 PM »

It's ok you don't understand law, but with that lack of understanding you probably should not call it insanity.  You are certainly free to disagree.  I disagree with a lot, but I make sure I know what's its saying first.

I understand law fine for a layman who has had no legal training. And I didn't quite call law "insane"- it is absurd, sometimes, such as when we grant legal rights of personhood to corporations, or some of our laws regarding sex offenses (I'm personally all for the Death Penalty in these cases if it means abolishing the Registry- talk about "cruel and unusual", killing these guys would be kinder!). The only mention of insanity was "attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist" which, outside of a sting operation of the nature reported in this article (the police also do this to ensnare spouses in Conspiracy charges by offering to off the husband/wife for a fee then busting when told "go ahead"), would definitely be considered insanity.

Let's put it like this- let's say you see a man in an alley-way humping the heck out of thin air, you walk up and ask him what he's doing doing and he replies "What's it look like, I'm ****ing this goat!" You call the police. Should they arrest him for
(a) Bestiality
(b) Lewd and Lascivious Behavior,
or (c) not arrest him as such but have him committed to a psych ward?
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« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2012, 09:38:57 PM »

Good grief, so Kerdy where was the attempted rape in this case?
Any attempt to engage in sexual relations without legal consent is attempted rape.  A minor is unable to provide legal consent to and adult.  He apparently was actively looking for (attempting) someone who fits into the aforementioned details. 

Any more good griefs I can clarify for you?
But there was NO attempted rape involved to any such minor. As FR said, "Attempted solicitation of a minor with intent would cover the reported facts of this case."
That all depends on the evidence, which we know little about.  Apparently, there was enough for the charge and subsequent prosecution or the judge, at least his attorney, would have raised a big stink.
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« Reply #71 on: September 28, 2012, 09:41:02 PM »

It's ok you don't understand law, but with that lack of understanding you probably should not call it insanity.  You are certainly free to disagree.  I disagree with a lot, but I make sure I know what's its saying first.

I understand law fine for a layman who has had no legal training. And I didn't quite call law "insane"- it is absurd, sometimes, such as when we grant legal rights of personhood to corporations, or some of our laws regarding sex offenses (I'm personally all for the Death Penalty in these cases if it means abolishing the Registry- talk about "cruel and unusual", killing these guys would be kinder!). The only mention of insanity was "attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist" which, outside of a sting operation of the nature reported in this article (the police also do this to ensnare spouses in Conspiracy charges by offering to off the husband/wife for a fee then busting when told "go ahead"), would definitely be considered insanity.

Let's put it like this- let's say you see a man in an alley-way humping the heck out of thin air, you walk up and ask him what he's doing doing and he replies "What's it look like, I'm ****ing this goat!" You call the police. Should they arrest him for
(a) Bestiality
(b) Lewd and Lascivious Behavior,
or (c) not arrest him as such but have him committed to a psych ward?

It all depends, but he would be evaluated.  Law is tricky business and sometimes it doesn't make much sense unless you have all the information, which we don't.
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« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2012, 09:41:29 PM »

Good grief, so Kerdy where was the attempted rape in this case?
Any attempt to engage in sexual relations without legal consent is attempted rape.  A minor is unable to provide legal consent to and adult.  He apparently was actively looking for (attempting) someone who fits into the aforementioned details. 

Any more good griefs I can clarify for you?
But there was NO attempted rape involved to any such minor. As FR said, "Attempted solicitation of a minor with intent would cover the reported facts of this case."
That all depends on the evidence, which we know little about.  Apparently, there was enough for the charge and subsequent prosecution or the judge, at least his attorney, would have raised a big stink.
If that is the case, then why are you so adamant about this being attempted rape.
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« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2012, 09:43:44 PM »

It's ok you don't understand law, but with that lack of understanding you probably should not call it insanity.  You are certainly free to disagree.  I disagree with a lot, but I make sure I know what's its saying first.

I understand law fine for a layman who has had no legal training. And I didn't quite call law "insane"- it is absurd, sometimes, such as when we grant legal rights of personhood to corporations, or some of our laws regarding sex offenses (I'm personally all for the Death Penalty in these cases if it means abolishing the Registry- talk about "cruel and unusual", killing these guys would be kinder!). The only mention of insanity was "attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist" which, outside of a sting operation of the nature reported in this article (the police also do this to ensnare spouses in Conspiracy charges by offering to off the husband/wife for a fee then busting when told "go ahead"), would definitely be considered insanity.

Let's put it like this- let's say you see a man in an alley-way humping the heck out of thin air, you walk up and ask him what he's doing doing and he replies "What's it look like, I'm ****ing this goat!" You call the police. Should they arrest him for
(a) Bestiality
(b) Lewd and Lascivious Behavior,
or (c) not arrest him as such but have him committed to a psych ward?

If a Joe attempts to pick up a prostitute who is actually a police officer, does he get let go because the prostitute didn't actually exist?  No.  Some people even claim it's entrapment, but that's because they don't understand what entrapment really is.
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« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2012, 09:44:47 PM »

Good grief, so Kerdy where was the attempted rape in this case?
Any attempt to engage in sexual relations without legal consent is attempted rape.  A minor is unable to provide legal consent to and adult.  He apparently was actively looking for (attempting) someone who fits into the aforementioned details. 

Any more good griefs I can clarify for you?
But there was NO attempted rape involved to any such minor. As FR said, "Attempted solicitation of a minor with intent would cover the reported facts of this case."
That all depends on the evidence, which we know little about.  Apparently, there was enough for the charge and subsequent prosecution or the judge, at least his attorney, would have raised a big stink.
If that is the case, then why are you so adamant about this being attempted rape.
I never said it was.  Someone inquired, I explained. 
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« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2012, 09:46:43 PM »

The man had every intention to have sex with minors, and attempted to arrange it, which is a deplorable act and it is illegal in this country. He committed a crime, and deserves to serve time for it. Hopefully his time in jail will bring him to repentance.
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« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2012, 09:50:50 PM »

The man had every intention to have sex with minors, and attempted to arrange it, which is a deplorable act and it is illegal in this country. He committed a crime, and deserves to serve time for it. Hopefully his time in jail will bring him to repentance.
Yes he a comitted a crime of attempted solicitation with intent. However where was the attempted rape though, he didn't attempt rape on anybody and further if there were minors that showed up, whose to say he wouldn't have done anything at all?

Words mean alot in cases such as this.
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« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2012, 09:51:24 PM »

The man had every intention to have sex with minors, and attempted to arrange it, which is a deplorable act and it is illegal in this country. He committed a crime, and deserves to serve time for it. Hopefully his time in jail will bring him to repentance.

Agreed.  Not sure what else can be said/argued in this thread.  

Edit: I guess we can argue about what he's charged with.  Solicitation or what not.  Either way, good riddance.
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« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2012, 09:51:47 PM »

Being charged with something means the suspect has legally been believed to have committed the crime.  Being convicted is an entirely different thing.  Sometimes charges are dropped, sometimes charges are added.  The LE personnel usually charge for the highest offenses and leave out the lesser included offenses.  Then, the prosecutor decides which charges he or she wishes to go forward based off elements of the crime and evidence.

Has he been convicted yet and if so, do we know what that conviction was?
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« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2012, 09:55:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So, because most countries have gone crazy, we should, too? Although, since about WWI it's usually more along the lines of us starting the crazy laws and the rest of the world following suit. Regardless- attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist would under any other circumstances constitute insanity.



I am not quite sure I understand you, I can only hope you mean well. How exactly have other nations gone crazy in enforcing and targeting sexual predators?  Let me explain, nobody is more sympathetic to criminals than myself.  Further, I wholly agree with the Gospel message of Matthew 25 to visit, console, and comfort prisoners, all the more especially the guilty.  However, this does not exonerate their guilt, neither does this sympathy and concern null the need for punishment.  I also firmly believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and I am well aware of the witch-hunts which occur in American legal system and the hundreds of completely and absolutely innocent people doing a lot of time.  A dude in Long Beach just got out after serving 10 years in prison for a rape he never committed, the women completely lied and it finally came out under oath elsewhere and the guy was released.  It is a statistical reality that when people serve more than 5 years in prison, essentially their life if forever destroyed.  However, this priest pleaded guilty.  I am also aware of the pressures which the legal system places on people to take plea bargains, the LA Men's Central Country Jail is quite literally a dungeon, it is the single largest prison-facility in the WORLD, and it is a hell-hole.  The County does this on purpose, to encourage people to take the plea-bargain, because if they fight the case it make take several years, and they will serve the entirety of that process in that same County Jail dungeon.  Again though, in this instance a priest confessed, and considering that child molestation is both the most despicable crime in America and that in prison it is essentially a death sentence by other inmates, I think that in this instance the priest would hardly have fessed up if we was truly innocent.  Wouldn't he have faith in God? Perhaps not if he knew he was guilty Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2012, 09:59:05 PM »

, in this instance a priest confessed, and considering that child molestation is both the most despicable crime in America and that in prison it is essentially a death sentence by other inmates,
All the more reason to fervently pray for his salvation and the inmates show just enough mercy. Punishment in the hands of other inmates is never justifiable IMO.
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« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2012, 10:01:48 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
Not quite. There are plenty of innocent people that have either plead guilty or no contest to crimes they never committed.

Thank God FormerReformer is here for much needed sanity.
Perhaps there are "plenty of people" etc, etc - that is probably true, but in this case that does not mean this priest was/is one of them. IMO, his plea is exactly what it is  - an admission of guilt. Got proof it is not?
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« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2012, 10:02:10 PM »

The man had every intention to have sex with minors, and attempted to arrange it, which is a deplorable act and it is illegal in this country. He committed a crime, and deserves to serve time for it. Hopefully his time in jail will bring him to repentance.
Yes he a comitted a crime of attempted solicitation with intent. However where was the attempted rape though, he didn't attempt rape on anybody and further if there were minors that showed up, whose to say he wouldn't have done anything at all?

Words mean alot in cases such as this.

Lets break this down.  I apologize it it's too graphic, but I'll make every attempt to keep it suitable.

Bob has an interest in and underage girl.  Bob talks to her in the Internet and invites her over.  The police are called by the girls parents and when they arrive at Bobs house they find lemonade he promised spiked with a narcotic which would render the girl defenseless and two glasses filled with the drink, only one with the narcotic.  What do you charge Bob with?  

Things to consider:

He didnt actually give it to her (what if the girl was actually officer Stan on the Internet?)
He had every intention, and admitted, he was going to engage in illegal sexual conduct with the girl.
He made preparations to commit the crime.
He went out of his way to find the girl and seduce her.
He knew she was under age and unable to provide legal consent.
Depending on email and chat room traffic, he may have attempted to elude LE and parents in his discussions.

There are others, so what should he be charged with?  According to some here, it sounds as if perhaps possession of a controlled substance and only the if he didn't have a prescription.  

Let me ask you something else.  Can a husband rape his wife?  If you say yes, what constitutes the rape?  If you say no, why?
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« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2012, 10:03:44 PM »

, in this instance a priest confessed, and considering that child molestation is both the most despicable crime in America and that in prison it is essentially a death sentence by other inmates,
All the more reason to fervently pray for his salvation and the inmates show just enough mercy. Punishment in the hands of other inmates is never justifiable IMO.
He'll probably be placed in "protective custody" where he MIGHT be safe.
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« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2012, 10:06:27 PM »

It's ok you don't understand law, but with that lack of understanding you probably should not call it insanity.  You are certainly free to disagree.  I disagree with a lot, but I make sure I know what's its saying first.

I understand law fine for a layman who has had no legal training. And I didn't quite call law "insane"- it is absurd, sometimes, such as when we grant legal rights of personhood to corporations, or some of our laws regarding sex offenses (I'm personally all for the Death Penalty in these cases if it means abolishing the Registry- talk about "cruel and unusual", killing these guys would be kinder!). The only mention of insanity was "attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist" which, outside of a sting operation of the nature reported in this article (the police also do this to ensnare spouses in Conspiracy charges by offering to off the husband/wife for a fee then busting when told "go ahead"), would definitely be considered insanity.

Let's put it like this- let's say you see a man in an alley-way humping the heck out of thin air, you walk up and ask him what he's doing doing and he replies "What's it look like, I'm ****ing this goat!" You call the police. Should they arrest him for
(a) Bestiality
(b) Lewd and Lascivious Behavior,
or (c) not arrest him as such but have him committed to a psych ward?

It all depends, but he would be evaluated.  Law is tricky business and sometimes it doesn't make much sense unless you have all the information, which we don't.

I agree we don't have all the information- I'm amused merely on the information we have been given.
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« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2012, 10:06:50 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
Not quite. There are plenty of innocent people that have either plead guilty or no contest to crimes they never committed.

Thank God FormerReformer is here for much needed sanity.
Perhaps there are "plenty of people" etc, etc - that is probably true, but in this case that does not mean this priest was/is one of them. IMO, his plea is exactly what it is  - an admission of guilt. Got proof it is not?
Ever hear of a plea bargain? Just because there is an admission of guilt from the suspect does not inherently conclude that the suspect is actually guilty of the crime. However in the priest's case, what FR was arguing over is the terminology used against the suspect "attempted rape". No such "attempted rape" ever occured, the priest didn't attempt rape on anybody. That is why an attempted solicitation with intent is much better suited for this case.

So that being said, we might as well say he wasn't guilty of attempting rape on anybody.
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« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2012, 10:10:57 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

, in this instance a priest confessed, and considering that child molestation is both the most despicable crime in America and that in prison it is essentially a death sentence by other inmates,
All the more reason to fervently pray for his salvation and the inmates show just enough mercy. Punishment in the hands of other inmates is never justifiable IMO.
He'll probably be placed in "protective custody" where he MIGHT be safe.

From what, the guards? Molesting and prison don't mesh well, jailbirds and jailers are generally two sides of the same coin, the Zimbardo Stanford study essentially quantified that.  In that regard then, they tend to think alike on these matters.  Not that I wish such harm on this priest, guilty or not, but such is the situation he faces, and only God can truly help him.

, in this instance a priest confessed, and considering that child molestation is both the most despicable crime in America and that in prison it is essentially a death sentence by other inmates,
All the more reason to fervently pray for his salvation and the inmates show just enough mercy. Punishment in the hands of other inmates is never justifiable IMO.

Was there something in your eye or what? Did you somehow completely over look the first part of that paragraph which you've selectively dislocated? Let me reiterate it for ya before folks get the wrong idea here:


 Let me explain, nobody is more sympathetic to criminals than myself.  Further, I wholly agree with the Gospel message of Matthew 25 to visit, console, and comfort prisoners, all the more especially the guilty. However, this does not exonerate their guilt, neither does this sympathy and concern null the need for punishment. I also firmly believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and I am well aware of the witch-hunts which occur in American legal system and the hundreds of completely and absolutely innocent people doing a lot of time.

I wish no harm to the priest in question, rather just pointing out that with such a risk, I hardly think this priest would have to a plea-bargain unless it was an honest confession of guilt. I will of course pray for this man, fervently at that, but again, my prayers do not exonerate his guilt, and when people confess to such heinous crimes its often not a matter of outside pressure or conspiracy, rather internal compunction.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #87 on: September 28, 2012, 10:13:51 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
Not quite. There are plenty of innocent people that have either plead guilty or no contest to crimes they never committed.

Thank God FormerReformer is here for much needed sanity.
Perhaps there are "plenty of people" etc, etc - that is probably true, but in this case that does not mean this priest was/is one of them. IMO, his plea is exactly what it is  - an admission of guilt. Got proof it is not?
Ever hear of a plea bargain? Just because there is an admission of guilt from the suspect does not inherently conclude that the suspect is actually guilty of the crime. However in the priest's case, what FR was arguing over is the terminology used against the suspect "attempted rape". No such "attempted rape" ever occured, the priest didn't attempt rape on anybody. That is why an attempted solicitation with intent is much better suited for this case.

So that being said, we might as well say he wasn't guilty of attempting rape on anybody.

We still can't say this.  There are too many variables to consider and if there was not enough evidence, I can't imagine why he would be charged and arrested for the crime.  

If I try to punch you in the head but miss and you never knew I tried, it's still assault.  Same thing.  But again, it all depends on the evidence and the local/state laws.
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« Reply #88 on: September 28, 2012, 10:14:59 PM »

Habte, I was in no way accusing you of wishing harm on the priest. We agree on this. I have no problem with him being punished (a misjudgement on my part on a different case that was posted here, thanks to akimori for helping me see clearly) but not from the cellmates. In the end, we agree.
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« Reply #89 on: September 28, 2012, 10:17:04 PM »

The man had every intention to have sex with minors, and attempted to arrange it, which is a deplorable act and it is illegal in this country. He committed a crime, and deserves to serve time for it. Hopefully his time in jail will bring him to repentance.
Yes he a comitted a crime of attempted solicitation with intent. However where was the attempted rape though, he didn't attempt rape on anybody and further if there were minors that showed up, whose to say he wouldn't have done anything at all?

Words mean alot in cases such as this.

There was no attempted rape. But he wanted to have sex with young children and attempted to do so, which is almost as disgusting in my opinion.
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« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2012, 10:28:28 PM »

Simple question:

Is a 41 year old who actually engages in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old a crime?

Yes or No
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« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2012, 10:31:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So, because most countries have gone crazy, we should, too? Although, since about WWI it's usually more along the lines of us starting the crazy laws and the rest of the world following suit. Regardless- attempting any physically violent act against a person that does not exist would under any other circumstances constitute insanity.



I am not quite sure I understand you, I can only hope you mean well. How exactly have other nations gone crazy in enforcing and targeting sexual predators?  Let me explain, nobody is more sympathetic to criminals than myself.  Further, I wholly agree with the Gospel message of Matthew 25 to visit, console, and comfort prisoners, all the more especially the guilty.  However, this does not exonerate their guilt, neither does this sympathy and concern null the need for punishment.  I also firmly believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and I am well aware of the witch-hunts which occur in American legal system and the hundreds of completely and absolutely innocent people doing a lot of time.  A dude in Long Beach just got out after serving 10 years in prison for a rape he never committed, the women completely lied and it finally came out under oath elsewhere and the guy was released.  It is a statistical reality that when people serve more than 5 years in prison, essentially their life if forever destroyed.  However, this priest pleaded guilty.  I am also aware of the pressures which the legal system places on people to take plea bargains, the LA Men's Central Country Jail is quite literally a dungeon, it is the single largest prison-facility in the WORLD, and it is a hell-hole.  The County does this on purpose, to encourage people to take the plea-bargain, because if they fight the case it make take several years, and they will serve the entirety of that process in that same County Jail dungeon.  Again though, in this instance a priest confessed, and considering that child molestation is both the most despicable crime in America and that in prison it is essentially a death sentence by other inmates, I think that in this instance the priest would hardly have fessed up if we was truly innocent.  Wouldn't he have faith in God? Perhaps not if he knew he was guilty Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Habte- as I seem to be repeating myself here, let me just say that I am in no way defending the priest or his crime. I AM amused at the idea of being charged with "attempting" a physical act against thin air- it just paints a funny mental image for me.

As far as crazy laws re: sexual predators (the other crazy laws I briefly referenced would be our War on Drugs- drugs are bad, m'kay, but prohibition is worse), yes, the world has gone slightly crazy. In every other instance of the punishment of criminals we strive to make the punishment fit the crime. Say a first time offender tries to rob a liquor store, he gets a few years. If he does it with a gun he gets ten or twenty. If he kills someone in the commission he gets even more. A murderer can get anywhere from twenty to life or even the death penalty.

These days, someone charged with a crime of a sexual nature- whether minors were involved or not, whether actual sex was involved or not- is not only given a prison sentence, but has to spend the rest of their life (or at least a few decades) checking in with the local PD, notifying the local PD if they are going on vacation, they spend the rest of their life on a registry, and can never again live within x000 ft of a school or any area where "children may gather". This has led to a huge homeless population in Miami who are homeless only due to the fact that they cannot legally live anywhere. Not all these people were offenders against children- not all these people committed a sexual offense at all. A guy might have had to relieve himself while on a road trip but between rest stops and is charged with Indecent Exposure- bam, registry.

The definition of child pornography has been stretched to such an extent that no actual children need to have been involved- Bart Simpson getting it on with Wendy from South Park nowadays constitutes. Creepy? Yes. Disgusting? Definitely. Should it be illegal? Perhaps. Should it have the same penalty as actually making two children undress and perform sexual acts on each other? I don't think so.
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« Reply #92 on: September 28, 2012, 10:32:47 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes


That's kinda disturbing. I do not think he did anything deserving actual jail time.

You would have preferred his victims to have been REAL children?

Somehow the law enforcers can't win. Derided for showing up after a crime has been committed they also criticized for doing what is their best purpose: preventing a crime. Go figure.

Well, can we really call this "attempted rape"? How can one attempt the rape of someone that doesn't exist? "Attempted Solicitation" more fits the bill, and with the Sex Crime laws we have in this country ensures that anyone is punished for the rest of their lives no matter how much jail time is spent.

Honestly, though, I'm just laughing at the legal fictions of our wondrous land. I wonder if it is possible for an imaginary being to charge a corporation (legally a person) with attempted rape.

The guilty plea in this case belies your argument.
Not quite. There are plenty of innocent people that have either plead guilty or no contest to crimes they never committed.

Thank God FormerReformer is here for much needed sanity.
Perhaps there are "plenty of people" etc, etc - that is probably true, but in this case that does not mean this priest was/is one of them. IMO, his plea is exactly what it is  - an admission of guilt. Got proof it is not?
Ever hear of a plea bargain? Just because there is an admission of guilt from the suspect does not inherently conclude that the suspect is actually guilty of the crime. However in the priest's case, what FR was arguing over is the terminology used against the suspect "attempted rape". No such "attempted rape" ever occured, the priest didn't attempt rape on anybody. That is why an attempted solicitation with intent is much better suited for this case.

So that being said, we might as well say he wasn't guilty of attempting rape on anybody.

Please do not patronize me lest I get really testy. You get to much of your life views from the movies. In my experience (not conjecture) when a case concludes so quickly the case against the accused was very strong. He likely would have gotten a heavier sentence at trial. (I won't bore you with how often I have seen the state offer the lesser plea to save time, money, and just get the case closed.)
By your logic the FBI and Homeland Security has been erring in their successful stings of terrorist cells.
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« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2012, 10:40:13 PM »

Simple question:

Is a 41 year old who actually engages in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old a crime?

Yes or No

Since no one wants to answer, I'll do the rest on my own.

Yes, the would be rape (of a child, a person under 16/14/12, etc., depending on how the law is written).

With this knowledge, what if he attempted, but could not?  Attempted rape.  Are there any other questions?
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« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2012, 10:56:00 PM »

Simple question:

Is a 41 year old who actually engages in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old a crime?

Yes or No

Since no one wants to answer, I'll do the rest on my own.

Yes, the would be rape (of a child, a person under 16/14/12, etc., depending on how the law is written).

With this knowledge, what if he attempted, but could not?  Attempted rape.  Are there any other questions?

If I plot the assassination of Josiah Bartlett, going so far as to get the gun, plan his route as learned from last episode of West Wing and place myself on the rooftop at the time his car should be rolling down the road, am I guilty of attempted treason?
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« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2012, 10:58:07 PM »

Simple question:

Is a 41 year old who actually engages in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old a crime?

Yes or No

Since no one wants to answer, I'll do the rest on my own.

Yes, the would be rape (of a child, a person under 16/14/12, etc., depending on how the law is written).

With this knowledge, what if he attempted, but could not?  Attempted rape.  Are there any other questions?

If I plot the assassination of Josiah Bartlett, going so far as to get the gun, plan his route as learned from last episode of West Wing and place myself on the rooftop at the time his car should be rolling down the road, am I guilty of attempted treason?
A TV character?
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« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2012, 10:59:19 PM »

Simple question:

Is a 41 year old who actually engages in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old a crime?

Yes or No

Since no one wants to answer, I'll do the rest on my own.

Yes, the would be rape (of a child, a person under 16/14/12, etc., depending on how the law is written).

With this knowledge, what if he attempted, but could not?  Attempted rape.  Are there any other questions?

If I plot the assassination of Josiah Bartlett, going so far as to get the gun, plan his route as learned from last episode of West Wing and place myself on the rooftop at the time his car should be rolling down the road, am I guilty of attempted treason?
You are guilty of attempted murder.
I'd be guilty of being off my rocker.
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« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2012, 11:01:10 PM »

Simple question:

Is a 41 year old who actually engages in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old a crime?

Yes or No

Since no one wants to answer, I'll do the rest on my own.

Yes, the would be rape (of a child, a person under 16/14/12, etc., depending on how the law is written).

With this knowledge, what if he attempted, but could not?  Attempted rape.  Are there any other questions?

If I plot the assassination of Josiah Bartlett, going so far as to get the gun, plan his route as learned from last episode of West Wing and place myself on the rooftop at the time his car should be rolling down the road, am I guilty of attempted treason?
You are guilty of attempted murder.
I'd be guilty of being off my rocker.


I altered my previous post.  But thanks for keeping important info out of the details.  That always helps.  Not to mention they are not even remotely similar.  You are wrong.
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« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2012, 11:10:15 PM »

If someone thinks Mike is a cop, but Mike is really a construction worker and they only know each other from the Internet and the other person hates cops and attempts to find and kill Mike, arrives at his door and realizes he is not a cop and leaves, is he still guilty of attempted murder?  Yep.

You can play all the word games you want, but you are still wrong as evidenced in written law.
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« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2012, 11:57:41 PM »

If someone thinks Mike is a cop, but Mike is really a construction worker and they only know each other from the Internet and the other person hates cops and attempts to find and kill Mike, arrives at his door and realizes he is not a cop and leaves, is he still guilty of attempted murder?  Yep.

You can play all the word games you want, but you are still wrong as evidenced in written law.

Actually, in this example with the information you've provided for this hypothetical I doubt the DA would even be able to get battery to stick.
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« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2012, 12:50:59 AM »

If someone thinks Mike is a cop, but Mike is really a construction worker and they only know each other from the Internet and the other person hates cops and attempts to find and kill Mike, arrives at his door and realizes he is not a cop and leaves, is he still guilty of attempted murder?  Yep.

You can play all the word games you want, but you are still wrong as evidenced in written law.

Actually, in this example with the information you've provided for this hypothetical I doubt the DA would even be able to get battery to stick.
You would be wrong, again.

Of course, it depends on several variables.
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« Reply #101 on: October 02, 2012, 03:38:38 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes



Do I have a story to tell you . . . When To Catch a Predator came on (or whatever it was called) I realized how far out from the world I lived that nearly everyone thought such tactics to be reasonable and effective.

Disgusting.
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« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2012, 03:42:56 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes



Do I have a story to tell you . . . When To Catch a Predator came on (or whatever it was called) I realized how far out from the world I lived that nearly everyone thought such tactics to be reasonable and effective.

Disgusting.
Oh man, don't even get me started on that show.
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« Reply #103 on: October 02, 2012, 04:22:56 PM »

Many of you are parsing legal terms and are hung up on defining victims and perpetrators. So...for all of you armchair attorneys out there who apparently can't see a criminal charge being justified by only the intent of a would be predator, coupled with some act in furtherence of the would be crime ...Why bother with crime prevention at all? .... Rather than entrap would be predators through use of the same technology which the predators use to obtain flesh and blood victims, it would be better to what - wait until a child is actually raped?

By that illogical construct, why not wait until blood is shed before preemptively using a handgun to stop a crime - not yet fully in progress? After all the would be shooter might be just that - a would be shooter.  Self defense is morally OK one on one, but not as a preemptive tool to prevent a criminal from engaging in heinous activity?

Sin is an easier concept as oftentimes no overt act in furtherance of sinful thoughts is required for a person to have sinned. From a moral theology point of view - in both the western and the eastern church - sins of thought and sins of intent are often offenses to God..If a man fantasizes having sex with a child is that not a sin? If he plans it out and takes steps to effectuate such an act, is that not sinful conduct?

A charge of attempted rape isn't really any different in the secular sense, it is equivalent to sinful thoughts coupled with preliminary actions - even if one fails to follow through with the actual act. That is a mitigation, but it doesn't wipe the conduct away either in the law or in the eyes of the Church.
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« Reply #104 on: October 02, 2012, 05:34:33 PM »

Many of you are parsing legal terms and are hung up on defining victims and perpetrators. So...for all of you armchair attorneys out there who apparently can't see a criminal charge being justified by only the intent of a would be predator, coupled with some act in furtherence of the would be crime ..

I'll get back to you as you are missing a key element here in a one time act of myopia on your part.
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« Reply #105 on: October 02, 2012, 11:20:40 PM »

And here's the fun of the American legal system- one can be guilty of "attempting" a physical act against two purely fictional and imaginary beings.  Roll Eyes



Do I have a story to tell you . . . When To Catch a Predator came on (or whatever it was called) I realized how far out from the world I lived that nearly everyone thought such tactics to be reasonable and effective.

Disgusting.
Oh man, don't even get me started on that show.
Compared to being retroactive and having children victimized?
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« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2012, 12:54:47 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

...

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #107 on: February 21, 2013, 09:51:41 AM »

The action of the Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America to unfrock Fr. Nicholas having been forwarded to the Ecumenical Patriarchate, its Holy and Sacred Synod acted to unfrock him during the current session of the Synod this week.
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