Author Topic: Fasting on Thanksgiving  (Read 1610 times)

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Offline Punch

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 11:20:17 AM »
No, your logic does not flow. It's not the eating of turkey that makes a feast a feast, it's the feast that makes a feast a feast. Would eating turkey on July 17 make July 17 as important a feast as the Nativity of our Savior?
Quote
So devoting a day to the giving of thanks to God (thanksgiving = Eucharist) is a worldly feast? Have you not read the Gospel about the 10 lepers Jesus cleansed. "Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" I can't think of anything more not-of-this-world then taking time out of our busy schedules to give thanks to God.

The fast was made for the Feast of Nativity. You fast spiritually until Nativity and that's when you are supposed to receive The Lord into your soul. If you eat meat until then, much less will you be able to fast spiritually until then and be able to receive The Lord.

I already said that celebrating thanksgiving does not mean breaking the fast. Eating meat does because you change the purpose of the fast. The fast was only made for God, for Nativity; it has nothing to do with anything else.

Wrong.  No fast was made for God.  He does not need your fasting, nor does he need your feasts.  The fasts were made for man, and who are you to tell us how we are to receive the Lord.  God will send his Holy Spirit on whom He wishes, and He does not need your approval or permission.  Perhaps it would surprise you to see, as I have, how many truly spiritual people there are that 1) either do not fast, or 2) don't talk about it if they do or 3) fast for their own benefit, not just because a calendar tells them to do so.  It is better to ask God's blessing on the meat than to think that you are something better than everyone else because you don't eat it, and I have yet to meet anyone who talks openly about their fasting that is not infected with this disease.   
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 11:30:16 AM »
FWIW, next year the first day of the fast on the OS falls on Thanksgiving.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2012, 06:36:27 PM »
Happy Thanksgiving!

I know ROCOR allowed some kind of moleben to be served on Thanksgiving Day, so it is possible to incorporate secular holidays that have some religious aspect that's compatible with our faith (see Halloween for a holiday that's not compatible). Of course, ROCOR also follows the traditional calendar, so fasting is rarely an issue (it is possible for Thanksgiving to fall on the first day of the fast in the old calendar).
Since when is Halloween a "secular" holiday? You might object to certain of the practices that have become associated with it, but Halloween is as religious a holiday as Christmas Eve.

It's interesting that Halloween is always cited as a holiday not compatible with Orthodoxy when it's already on Orthodox liturgical calendars.

I've never seen it on any Orthodox liturgical calendar. Do you have an example you could show?

Offline choy

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2012, 06:56:34 PM »
Since the first Thanksgiving meal of the pilgrims featured eel, rather than turkey, we have an excellent example to follow by observing the original Thanksgiving menue and keeping the Nativity Fast.

But eels have backbones like fish.

Offline William

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2012, 01:12:14 AM »
Happy Thanksgiving!

I know ROCOR allowed some kind of moleben to be served on Thanksgiving Day, so it is possible to incorporate secular holidays that have some religious aspect that's compatible with our faith (see Halloween for a holiday that's not compatible). Of course, ROCOR also follows the traditional calendar, so fasting is rarely an issue (it is possible for Thanksgiving to fall on the first day of the fast in the old calendar).
Since when is Halloween a "secular" holiday? You might object to certain of the practices that have become associated with it, but Halloween is as religious a holiday as Christmas Eve.

It's interesting that Halloween is always cited as a holiday not compatible with Orthodoxy when it's already on Orthodox liturgical calendars.

I've never seen it on any Orthodox liturgical calendar. Do you have an example you could show?

The Eve of All Saints is on October 31 in the Western Rite.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2012, 02:21:02 AM »
No, your logic does not flow. It's not the eating of turkey that makes a feast a feast, it's the feast that makes a feast a feast. Would eating turkey on July 17 make July 17 as important a feast as the Nativity of our Savior?
Quote
So devoting a day to the giving of thanks to God (thanksgiving = Eucharist) is a worldly feast? Have you not read the Gospel about the 10 lepers Jesus cleansed. "Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" I can't think of anything more not-of-this-world then taking time out of our busy schedules to give thanks to God.

The fast was made for the Feast of Nativity. You fast spiritually until Nativity and that's when you are supposed to receive The Lord into your soul.
So you would advocate that I not receive Holy Communion from November 15 until Christmas Day?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 02:21:33 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline IoanC

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2012, 02:57:24 AM »
No, your logic does not flow. It's not the eating of turkey that makes a feast a feast, it's the feast that makes a feast a feast. Would eating turkey on July 17 make July 17 as important a feast as the Nativity of our Savior?
Quote
So devoting a day to the giving of thanks to God (thanksgiving = Eucharist) is a worldly feast? Have you not read the Gospel about the 10 lepers Jesus cleansed. "Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" I can't think of anything more not-of-this-world then taking time out of our busy schedules to give thanks to God.

The fast was made for the Feast of Nativity. You fast spiritually until Nativity and that's when you are supposed to receive The Lord into your soul.
So you would advocate that I not receive Holy Communion from November 15 until Christmas Day?

I guess you can receive as much Communion as you want. No one can stop you, unless the priest takes time and knows how to assess your case. Receiving Communion does not mean that you are worthy of it, that you have prepared yourself accordingly. Now, you're probably going to say that we are never really worthy of Communion, anyway. That's not true, there are very strict rules that have to do with preparation before Communion. That we are not worthy is true, but there are no excuses for not having prepared according to the rules. In other words, what have you done to make yourself worthy, or why haven't you done anything since you keep saying you are not worthy? Many today think that they simply lower the bar as they wish, but that's not how The Church advocates preparation before Communion, and fasting, in general, which is a very strict and supervised period.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 02:58:49 AM by IoanC »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2012, 03:04:55 AM »
No, your logic does not flow. It's not the eating of turkey that makes a feast a feast, it's the feast that makes a feast a feast. Would eating turkey on July 17 make July 17 as important a feast as the Nativity of our Savior?
Quote
So devoting a day to the giving of thanks to God (thanksgiving = Eucharist) is a worldly feast? Have you not read the Gospel about the 10 lepers Jesus cleansed. "Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?" I can't think of anything more not-of-this-world then taking time out of our busy schedules to give thanks to God.

The fast was made for the Feast of Nativity. You fast spiritually until Nativity and that's when you are supposed to receive The Lord into your soul.
So you would advocate that I not receive Holy Communion from November 15 until Christmas Day?

I guess you can receive as much Communion as you want. No one can stop you, unless the priest takes time and knows how to assess your case. Receiving Communion does not mean that you are worthy of it, that you have prepared yourself accordingly. Now, you're probably going to say that we are never really worthy of Communion, anyway. That's not true, there are very strict rules that have to do with preparation before Communion. That we are not worthy is true, but there are no excuses for not having prepared according to the rules. In other words, what have you done to make yourself worthy, or why haven't you done anything since you keep saying you are not worthy? Many today think that they simply lower the bar as they wish, but that's not how The Church advocates preparation before Communion, and fasting, in general, which is a very strict and supervised period.
You missed the point of my rhetorical question.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2012, 06:18:05 PM »
Happy Thanksgiving!

I know ROCOR allowed some kind of moleben to be served on Thanksgiving Day, so it is possible to incorporate secular holidays that have some religious aspect that's compatible with our faith (see Halloween for a holiday that's not compatible). Of course, ROCOR also follows the traditional calendar, so fasting is rarely an issue (it is possible for Thanksgiving to fall on the first day of the fast in the old calendar).
Since when is Halloween a "secular" holiday? You might object to certain of the practices that have become associated with it, but Halloween is as religious a holiday as Christmas Eve.

It's interesting that Halloween is always cited as a holiday not compatible with Orthodoxy when it's already on Orthodox liturgical calendars.

I've never seen it on any Orthodox liturgical calendar. Do you have an example you could show?

The Eve of All Saints is on October 31 in the Western Rite.

OK, but it's debatable whether American Halloween can be considered the same holiday. The point is, are the customs of trick or treating and dressing up as witches and demons compatible with Orthodoxy?

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2012, 06:20:23 PM »
Since the first Thanksgiving meal of the pilgrims featured eel, rather than turkey, we have an excellent example to follow by observing the original Thanksgiving menue and keeping the Nativity Fast.

But eels have backbones like fish.

According to some people, fish is allowed on all days, other than Wed and Fri, up until December 12th, though that's not the tradition I'm familiar with.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2012, 06:56:48 PM »
dressing up as witches and demons compatible with Orthodoxy?



Mocking death and demons is quite popular in the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:57:38 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2012, 07:03:29 PM »
dressing up as witches and demons compatible with Orthodoxy?



Mocking death and demons is quite popular in the Orthodox Church.

.... but not by dressing up as said malevolents as a joke.  :police:
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #57 on: November 27, 2012, 07:09:09 PM »

.... but not by dressing up as said malevolents as a joke.  :police:
Death is depicted as a silly little old man bound in chains. It isn't too much of a stretch.

Not to mention the turtle-shelled Master Roshi satan often found in Nativity icons.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 07:09:30 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Fasting on Thanksgiving
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2012, 01:36:43 AM »

.... but not by dressing up as said malevolents as a joke.  :police:
Death is depicted as a silly little old man bound in chains. It isn't too much of a stretch.

Not to mention the turtle-shelled Master Roshi satan often found in Nativity icons.

That's not a turtle shell on the strange little man trying to put doubts in St Joseph's mind. It's a fur cloak, often with a hood. It was mid-winter, after all.  :police:
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