Author Topic: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy  (Read 29304 times)

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #180 on: September 27, 2012, 11:21:17 AM »
Says who? Even the Apostles went and preached in the native language of their fold.

Indeed they did, and so should we. But that doesn't change the fact that our Scriptures, liturgies, the majority of our patristic texts, etc. were written in Greek and that learning Greek would be of tremendous benefit to anyone wanting greater insight into any of those. The Greek language is part of the common heritage, not just of us Orthodox, but of all Christians and knowledge of it is a great blessing.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #181 on: September 27, 2012, 11:22:32 AM »
All languages are Christian languages. All languages will yield fruit, so long as there are people who will use them to spread and live the Orthodox faith. This thread just keeps getting stranger and stranger... :-\

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #182 on: September 27, 2012, 11:26:24 AM »
All languages are Christian languages. All languages will yield fruit, so long as there are people who will use them to spread and live the Orthodox faith.

Indeed, but the Scriptures were not originally written in all languages, nor did the early Fathers write their works in all languages. Have I suggested only Greek should be used in the Liturgy, or in preaching, or in religious study?

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #183 on: September 27, 2012, 11:33:56 AM »
Sorry, Orthodox11, I should have made it more clear that I meant that as a general comment, not a response to your posts in particular. I certainly have no problem with the learning and teaching of Greek, or Aramaic (and Syriac), or even Hebrew for that matter (though Hebrew studies can be a bit of an issue, since they are often unduly influenced by Judaizing Christians and/or Zionist Jews). 

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #184 on: September 27, 2012, 11:35:32 AM »
Says who? Even the Apostles went and preached in the native language of their fold.

Indeed they did, and so should we. But that doesn't change the fact that our Scriptures, liturgies, the majority of our patristic texts, etc. were written in Greek and that learning Greek would be of tremendous benefit to anyone wanting greater insight into any of those. The Greek language is part of the common heritage, not just of us Orthodox, but of all Christians and knowledge of it is a great blessing.
That doesn't make it "Holy", just useful.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #185 on: September 27, 2012, 11:36:33 AM »
God is an Arab?  ;D

According to them, Arabic is His native tongue.

Indeed they did, and so should we. But that doesn't change the fact that our Scriptures, liturgies, the majority of our patristic texts, etc. were written in Greek

Or Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Latin, or Church Slavonic...
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #186 on: September 27, 2012, 11:49:28 AM »
That doesn't make it "Holy", just useful.

I don't believe I stated anywhere that Greek was a holy, or holier, language.

Or Hebrew, or Aramaic, or Latin, or Church Slavonic...

Those are all useful languages to learn, but they're not comparable to Greek. We don't use the Hebrew Old Testament, but the Greek LXX (the original Hebrew of which is lost to us), the Aramaic NT is translated from the Greek. Many Fathers wrote in Latin and Syriac, but the corpus of Greek patristic texts, particularly the ones Orthodox make regular reference to, is far larger. While several canons, hymns, akathists, etc. have been composed in Church Slavonic, they represent a very small part of our liturgical tradition, and concern for the most part local feasts and customs of the Slavic churches, while those common to the whole Church were all composed in Greek.

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #187 on: September 27, 2012, 11:53:33 AM »
As a cradle Orthodox in America, I can assure you that growing up listening to a language that we couldn't understand left us completely uneducated in the Orthodox faith. Most of the children who grew up in my home parish have left the faith they could not understand.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #188 on: September 27, 2012, 12:08:22 PM »
As a cradle Orthodox in America, I can assure you that growing up listening to a language that we couldn't understand left us completely uneducated in the Orthodox faith. Most of the children who grew up in my home parish have left the faith they could not understand.
^This, although Im not a cradle.

If my parish were not in English, I'd probably be agnostic by now.

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Offline MarkosC

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #189 on: September 27, 2012, 12:21:06 PM »
with a little bit of effort, the liturgical (read ancient) languages that we have can yield to the vernacular: Slavonic to Bulgarian, Serbia, Russian, Ukrainian; liturgical Greek to modern Greek, etc... That said, of all liturgical languages, obviously our theologians must be fluent and our priests should be knowledgeable in Greek, not because of its liturgical use but because the New Testament was written in it.

Unforunately, I have to disagree with this.   The original Greek used in the Menaion and Triodion, I am told, is not only dissimilar to modern Greek (though how easy it is to learn is a matter Greeks debate - from my little experience with modern Greek, it's not even like learning Chaucer.  And IMO, the Greek school system needs to teach Byzantine, Attic, and Homeric Greek), but is not ancient street Greek.  These were written by learned men, who wrote in learned, sometimes deliberately archaic poetic styles.  Moreover, they often use very precise thelogical terms and concepts which today are not encountered outside of graduate theology programs.  

Moreover, back when these were written, most people did not speak literary Greek to others unless one was very educated.  Nor did people demand that speeches be given in street Greek - indeed, they expected elevated speech, and found rhetoric, even if some had a hard time understanding it, a form of entertainment.  And we are told that violent street debates would take place on whether or not the Son is unoriginate and co-beginningless with the Father.  

I'm all for translation if there's a legitimate pastoral need, as judged ultimately by the presbyterate and episcopate.  Here in the US IMO at least partial translation is necessary.

But I will not use dumbed down translations, or incompetent translations that have a shaky grasp of theology, no sense of the original and no grasp of liturgical English*.  Incompetence is rife in my experience, especially since each jurisdiction believes it needs its own texts and since there are few people who have made the effort to acquire the necessary skills.

Markos

* by liturgical English I mean the 1661 Prayerbook and the 1611 Authorized Bible - in terms of literary quality, note necessarily thees and thous.   Nothing I've seen outside of Anglicanism - to include what I've seen in Orthodox and Latin Catholic worship - is in the same solar system.  
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 12:24:01 PM by MarkosC »
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #190 on: September 27, 2012, 12:21:46 PM »
Sorry, Orthodox11, I should have made it more clear that I meant that as a general comment, not a response to your posts in particular.

My bad, sorry.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #191 on: September 27, 2012, 12:24:24 PM »
And IMO, the Greek school system needs to teach Byzantine, Attic, and Homeric Greek), but is not ancient street Greek.   

Katharevousa was taught until fairly recently. Those who grew up learning katharevousa find the transition to liturgical Greek fairly easy. The Greek of the Liturgy or New Testament is much closer to Katharevousa than it is to Attic and Homeric.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #192 on: September 27, 2012, 12:30:17 PM »
That doesn't make it "Holy", just useful.

I don't believe I stated anywhere that Greek was a holy, or holier, language.

You compared it to the way Muslims view Arabic and Jews view Hebrew.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #193 on: September 27, 2012, 12:32:33 PM »
You compared it to the way Muslims view Arabic and Jews view Hebrew.

I did not. I said very clearly that we do not view languages the same way those groups do. The comparison I made was to mosques teaching Arabic and synagogues teaching Hebrew. If they can pull it off, why can't we?

Offline mike

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #194 on: September 27, 2012, 12:41:57 PM »
If they can pull it off, why can't we?

They have better reasons for that. They learn "God's language" and Greek is not such.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #195 on: September 27, 2012, 12:44:09 PM »
with a little bit of effort, the liturgical (read ancient) languages that we have can yield to the vernacular: Slavonic to Bulgarian, Serbia, Russian, Ukrainian; liturgical Greek to modern Greek, etc... That said, of all liturgical languages, obviously our theologians must be fluent and our priests should be knowledgeable in Greek, not because of its liturgical use but because the New Testament was written in it.

Unforunately, I have to disagree with this.   The original Greek used in the Menaion and Triodion, I am told, is not only dissimilar to modern Greek (though how easy it is to learn is a matter Greeks debate - from my little experience with modern Greek, it's not even like learning Chaucer.  And IMO, the Greek school system needs to teach Byzantine, Attic, and Homeric Greek), but is not ancient street Greek.  These were written by learned men, who wrote in learned, sometimes deliberately archaic poetic styles.  Moreover, they often use very precise thelogical terms and concepts which today are not encountered outside of graduate theology programs.  

Moreover, back when these were written, most people did not speak literary Greek to others unless one was very educated.  Nor did people demand that speeches be given in street Greek - indeed, they expected elevated speech, and found rhetoric, even if some had a hard time understanding it, a form of entertainment.  And we are told that violent street debates would take place on whether or not the Son is unoriginate and co-beginningless with the Father.  

I'm all for translation if there's a legitimate pastoral need, as judged ultimately by the presbyterate and episcopate.  Here in the US IMO at least partial translation is necessary.

But I will not use dumbed down translations, or incompetent translations that have a shaky grasp of theology, no sense of the original and no grasp of liturgical English*.  Incompetence is rife in my experience, especially since each jurisdiction believes it needs its own texts and since there are few people who have made the effort to acquire the necessary skills.

Markos

* by liturgical English I mean the 1661 Prayerbook and the 1611 Authorized Bible - in terms of literary quality, note necessarily thees and thous.   Nothing I've seen outside of Anglicanism - to include what I've seen in Orthodox and Latin Catholic worship - is in the same solar system.  

I am aware that many folks in the various traditions (let's just concentrate on liturgical Greek and Slavonic for now) feel the same way that you do. While there well may be some mistranslations and therefore incorrect theological content, I submit to you that the effort would be worthwhile in the long run, especially if care is taken not to offend one's linguistic sensibilities too much. I am coming from the perspective of the mission, which I take to be the Great Commission. I think therefore that being precise and eloquent is a minor consideration when they hamper the mission. So, by all means let us strive to be as precise and eloquent as we can be in the translations (let us not hurry and do a sloppy job), but let us switch over to the vernacular for the common work and worship of the Church. I strongly support the necessity of having a strong group of specialists who will continue to preserve the liturgical languages to inform our worship and ensure that the vernacular captures the original.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #196 on: September 27, 2012, 01:28:02 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


As a cradle Orthodox in America, I can assure you that growing up listening to a language that we couldn't understand left us completely uneducated in the Orthodox faith. Most of the children who grew up in my home parish have left the faith they could not understand.

Then couldn't better instruction and teaching been made available without necessarily changing the Liturgy? See, that is what the OP is about, not integrating English in general into the Church, but more specifically going All-English  Liturgy.  In my opinion, EVEN if we had EVERY single piece of text, prayer, or song in the Church meticulously in English, teenagers and young adults would STILL drowned it out as background noise and would still walk away if we don't increase our efforts to actually, directly, and dynamically work with our young people.  Language is not a magic bullet, but to change certain aspects of Tradition to accommodate a bunch of kids, well that is not exactly what Tradition is about.  I have already made the case quite clear as to why the Ethiopian Church can't do this.  Indeed, we do have several of the prayers and readings made in Vernaculars, from Amharic and Tigrenya to English, but again, at every Liturgy, be it the Divine Liturgy or a Liturgy at Baptism, there are chants in Ge'ez which folks are obliged to learn.  This is the history and culture of the Ethiopian Church, and it is part of our unique circumstances within the Orthodox world.  Ge'ez is not "God's language" but we do hold Saint Yared's complicated system of musical notation to be divinely inspired, and we therefore have no aspirations to change that and since it doesn't readily adapt to languages outside of Ge'ez, Ge'ez it is ;)


Since when "forefathers" mean "spiritual fathers?



I never used the term forefathers, I fully implied spiritual fathers.  I would equally have referred to Russian, Greek, Egyptian, Armenian, Indian, Latin, or Syriac fathers as "our Fathers" because I revere clergy.  Thanks for trying to make it an Orthodox integrity peeing contest.  I understand your concern with me being a convert, but you are more than free to check it out for yourself there are some delightful articles on JSTOR which discuss the evolution of Saint Yared's musical notation system.  



Here is another source like Levar Burton always says, "You don't have to take my word for it."



stay  blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 01:35:10 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #197 on: September 27, 2012, 02:54:10 PM »
our Fathers have considered the musical notation as sacred in the Tradition as the words themselves, so asking us to change the music would be as sacrilegious as just asking us to change the words

Kinda heretical and breaking the 1st commandment.

I wonder whether any cradles can confirm that. Hiwot?



Absolutely heretical! And nowhere do the Ethiopian Fathers have ever expressed such a sentiment, not even one that is remotely close to it. Lord have Mercy! Habte Silasse for the love of God refrain from projecting your own fetish on to the Orthodox Church! Nowhere do any of the Fathers equate musical notation as sacred as the Words of the Liturgy EVER! , the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church existed before St. Yared came into the picture , with all the DL, Scripture in short all things included in Holy Tradition, St. Yared was able to introduce his music into the Church because the Church was open and willing to use all those things that will serve in preaching the Gospel of the Lord, after St. Yared many many music has been composed in the Church, the Dance has evolved and it was added to it by people like Aleka Tekle, in what is now called ‘yetekle aquaquam’ , even the DL ‘s music is different among regions , debra abay is not the same as the one of Shewa, or that one of serenkula Qidase.
 You keep on saying that in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tradition the entire DL is not/ cannot be translated into other languages, that is simply Not true. Every part of the DL has been translated into Amharic, Tigrina, and Oromiffa. One of the Parishes I used to go to in Addis as a child, always used Amharic only in the Sunday DL service, for the entirety of the DL. Due to its proximity to the main universities in Addis, it used to be the most packed Church where the college students go to, the fact that  it happened  to have excellent Sunday school program was also one of the attraction for the youth. They did not sing the DL, because the music is made for the Geez, that did not stop the Church Fathers to know the importance of having a DL service in the language of the people. For those who wanted to hear the mix liturgical languages they could go to the weekday liturgy. Even then the percentage throughout the City of Addis in the usage of Geez and Amharic has always been 25% and 75% respectively. What does that tell us? While we know the importance of preserving the language the music etc, we never elevate them above the great Commission that Our Lord has given the Catholic Orthodox Church! Never ever ever!!! The day we say otherwise it is the day we cease being Christians, and have fallen into idolatry!


The irony of hearing people say stuf like this on behalf of  Ethiopians is that Ethiopians are the ones who have benefited incredibly as a result of intense labor of translations by our Holy Fathers who were mostly Copts, and Syrians and Greeks ,evangelizers of Ethiopia  so Ethiopian Christians know first and foremost the value of translations as we have our most elevated and revered saints are those saints who have engaged in the translation of the DL, the Holy Scripture etc. St. Yared was one of the students of the Nine saints who saw the importance of having DL, Scripture, Church Music all of it being in the spoken language of the people. St. Yared did not hold his language geez to be superior than the language of his holy fathers whose language were Coptic, Greek, Syriac. Not at all, he like them understood of the need to experience the DL without any linguistic barrier, nor did St Frumentius ( a Syrian Greek) , or the Nine Saints  impose their language onto the Ethiopians they evangelized, instead they learnt the language of the country and poured their very life into bringing the Gospel to the common people of Ethiopia in their own language. No Ethiopian Orthodox Christian would dare to claim that language is greater than the words of the Gospel, or the musical notas are unchangeable as the words of the DL. That kind of fetish has its own name, and the Church does not have any place for such fetish.perhaps  musemums and preservation centers might accommodate such fetish so far as I know, the Church of the Living Christ has no such Tradition.


It is not because the Church has come to the English speaking world that the usage of language other than Geez started to be used in the DL, rather it is within Ethiopia herself that the Orthodox Church started to use translations , mainly into Amharic and Tigrigna languages, so nearly all spiritual documents and scriptures are  translated into these two languages. The basic principle behind all these actions being  the commandment that the Lord gave the Church, to bring the Good News and Salvation to all Men , the Church must act with the same urgency and joy of the first century. The same Orthodox Tradition followed those who immigrated into the English speaking world, so now we have the entire DL translated into English. So it is no longer the question of can it be translated, obviously it has already been translated. The question is can it be chanted for the entire DL, the answer is of course it can. The music nota although at the moment has not been adopted for the Amharic or the Tigrigna or the English, it does not mean that it is impossible for it to be adopted in the future, to deny that possibility  would be ridiculous. It will require a combined effort of secular and church musicians to make a universal music that easily crosses over different languages and God willing it will be done as it has been done for other hymns of the church.


English is starting to be used in some of the Orthodox Tewahedo Churches partly, although the English Text translation of the DL is used to accompany every DL service via books and projectors , however on a more positive note, One wonderful priest I know recently e-mailed me to let me know that his Orthodox Tewahedo parish now serves DL two Sundays of the month entirely in English. I was in tears when I read his email. The fact that he is a cradle orthodox who can serve in Geez, Amharic, Tgirigna and English makes him one of a kind. Not to mention that he is highly educated College Professor who minsters to the youth the best way he could and I mean he gives it his all with such humility love and dedication. His parish teaches the youth the language of their heritage, DL in geez, and DL in English as part of the Sunday school program which actually also has Friday night language lessons. These types of efforts are the ones that are following the Orthodox Tradition of the Fathers, not those who say this language and this music is our heritage and we must keep it at all costs. The historically proven Orthodox Path of the Fathers  serves the Church that’s ever young( not only by age of the cradles but by the presence of the called by the Spirit Catechumens, and the Newly Illumined converts )while at the same time preserving the  Orthodox Tradition of building on  firm foundation, thereby along the way contributing to the growth of a Christianized culture, the enrichment of custom and tradition, as all things become Christianized and beautified by the presence of Christ as Orthodox Christians of all races and ethnicities and languages , live out their Orthodox Christian Faith, Faithfully! For that to happen the Holy Spirit has initiated the Church by the lifting of the language barrier, that was a tool of stopping work in Babylon, the very method that was used to divide is now used to gather all nations into Christ, The Holy Spirit allowed the apostles to speak to each man in that assembly in his mother tongue the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Those that came into Judaism from all nations seeking the God Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Israel, on that beautiful day of the birth of the Church, the Holy Spirit gathered all men in Christ, for the Glory of the Father. He was found by those who sought him truly! At once on the very day of the Pentecost the Church was established as a Catholic Church! The Children of Noah, sought to reach God with their buildings and language was used as a barrier to stop their foolishness, the Holy Spirit used Language to bring all men to a life in communion with God. Yet even today people are tempted to erect  the tower of their cultural, linguistic, historical pride before Christ and His Church. Ultimately Those that are not  working for Christ while in the Church, they are working against Christ,and they that gather without Christ scatter. To humanity Nothing is as important as the Gospel of Jesus Christ, no that does not mean the bible. And what is this Africans vs. Americans in the love of language yada yada that I am seeing? That is quickly followed by marks garvey speech, about roots and so forth, we all know where this is coming from and where it is leading, This leaven of the heretics hides itself in so many disguises, I will say it again the Church is Catholic, save your racial regional politics where it belongs that sickness will never get legitimacy in the Orthodox Church. The Gospel is for All Mankind. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is not a racial or a regional Church. If she must trace her roots and indulge in such foolishness then she traces it to Palestine lol to a Jewish Man. Great is the Wisdom of the Lord!



So in the end  our Tradition has always been engaged in doing whatever is necessary even to the point of death to proclaim the Gospel to ALL Mankind, we go the Same Path our Holy Patriarchs have walked in, All are welcome to the Kingdom of God, All are welcome to the bosom of their Mother the Church, All must hear the Good News of our Salvation!  In fact we come from a tradition that says  this :

Philippians 1 15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.c 18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

In the end we care that the Church minsters for everyone within and for all outside who are willing to listen simply because..
Matthew 28: 18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

And the apostle gives witness
Galatians 3:26-28 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.



I have said my piece , I do not have the time to reply anytime soon.


To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline pious1

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #198 on: September 27, 2012, 03:04:24 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if people want to go to a liturgy where the service is guaranteed to be in English and more American with little to no old school ethnic flat, isn't that what the OCA is? I never understood the arguments people have for English only liturgies and an ending to the tight ethnic groups that turn off many converts. That is who the OCA appeals to and as a result, the OCA i believe is either the largest Orthodox body in the US or 2nd largest after the Greek Orthodox Church. Let the ethnic parishes remain ethnic and those who feel uncomfortable in an ethnic parish, go to the OCA. Please someone tell me what is wrong with my line of thinking.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #199 on: September 27, 2012, 03:10:40 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if people want to go to a liturgy where the service is guaranteed to be in English and more American with little to no old school ethnic flat, isn't that what the OCA is? I never understood the arguments people have for English only liturgies and an ending to the tight ethnic groups that turn off many converts. That is who the OCA appeals to and as a result, the OCA i believe is either the largest Orthodox body in the US or 2nd largest after the Greek Orthodox Church. Let the ethnic parishes remain ethnic and those who feel uncomfortable in an ethnic parish, go to the OCA. Please someone tell me what is wrong with my line of thinking.

The OCA is 2nd based an the article below, which is an article on a study done in 2004

http://www.antiochian.org/content/five-interesting-facts-report-released-noted-researcher

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #200 on: September 27, 2012, 03:14:53 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

They did not sing the DL, because the music is made for the Geez, that did not stop the Church Fathers to know the importance of having a DL service in the language of the people.

The crux of the argument here which you so simply proved the point.  The Liturgy CAN'T be properly sung in any language but Ge'ez, and I may be a purist about it, but all the priests I roll with and the literature I've consulted has suggested that singing the Liturgy is very important.  Personally, I would feel weird in a parish that didn't sing the Liturgy in the manner of Saint Yared, but if I was misinformed about this matter I humbly apologize for any misconceptions.

If I should clarify ,then I shall, but in every of the several Ethiopian parishes I attend or network with here in the US, the Liturgy is CHANTED in Ge'ez, and the Scriptures are read in Amharic, and the petition prayers and litanies and the Anaphora prayers are spoken in Amharic, but again, we still have Ge'ez chanted in for at least 60%.  This has been my experience, and I personally had to LEARN Ge'ez to chant and sing along.  When I asked my own Fathers about why I had to learn Ge'ez, and when we've discussed English liturgies (which of course we have also been working towards, but Ge'ez and English, not entirely English) they have always explained to me it comes down to preserving the music. Why is Yared a Saint exactly if his music was not divinely inspired?


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St. Yared did not hold his language geez to be superior than the language of his holy fathers whose language were Coptic, Greek, Syriac.

Never implied that, rather I am discussing the ዜማ, not the written texts, nor the Gospels, nor the spoken prayers, but the chants.



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It is not because the Church has come to the English speaking world that the usage of language other than Geez started to be used in the DL, rather it is within Ethiopia herself that the Orthodox Church started to use translations , mainly into Amharic and Tigrigna languages, so nearly all spiritual documents and scriptures are  translated into these two languages.

Yes, this is true, but I understood that much like all the Ethiopian Liturgies which I've attended that the chanted parts were still in Ge'ez to follow the musical notation, and the spoken prayers or readings are in the vernacular.  I never pretended that the Ethiopian Church doesn't use dozens of vernaculars, we are talking specifically about the chant.


Quote
it does not mean that it is impossible for it to be adopted in the future, to deny that possibility  would be ridiculous. It will require a combined effort of secular and church musicians to make a universal music that easily crosses over different languages and God willing it will be done as it has been done for other hymns of the church.

I also didn't suggest this, rather that considering how merciless complex and intricate the musical notation system is that it seems like a tall order :)

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English is starting to be used in some of the Orthodox Tewahedo Churches partly, although the English Text translation of the DL is used to accompany every DL service via books and projectors , however on a more positive note,

Yes of course, how else could a native English speaker like myself learn the Ge'ez chanted / spoken Amharic Liturgy in the first place?

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That is quickly followed by marks garvey speech, about roots and so forth, we all know where this is coming from and where it is leading, This leaven of the heretics hides itself in so many disguises, I will say it again the Church is Catholic,

You were aware that the Honorable Marcus Garvey was a devout Catholic right?

 
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save your racial regional politics where it belongs that sickness will never get legitimacy in the Orthodox Church.

Haha, what a laugh, you realize I am a white man right? How exactly am I pushing racial regional politics which by definition would reject myself from the equation ;)

 
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The Gospel is for All Mankind. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is not a racial or a regional Church. If she must trace her roots and indulge in such foolishness then she traces it to Palestine lol to a Jewish Man. Great is the Wisdom of the Lord!

Amen!

Perhaps my obvious bias is that the Ethiopian parishes I attend focus on Liturgical purity and therefore CHANT the Liturgy.  If I have caused confusion here, my mistake, I can only testify what I have been taught by my priests and the Ethiopian community I have become a part of.  We are all Christians here, and we are learning from each other each new day.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 03:26:01 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #201 on: September 27, 2012, 03:21:09 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if people want to go to a liturgy where the service is guaranteed to be in English and more American with little to no old school ethnic flat, isn't that what the OCA is? I never understood the arguments people have for English only liturgies and an ending to the tight ethnic groups that turn off many converts. That is who the OCA appeals to and as a result, the OCA i believe is either the largest Orthodox body in the US or 2nd largest after the Greek Orthodox Church. Let the ethnic parishes remain ethnic and those who feel uncomfortable in an ethnic parish, go to the OCA. Please someone tell me what is wrong with my line of thinking.

Definitely support our ethnic parishes.  But the other issue is how do the non-ethnic Churches take root?  Ethnic parishes get established quickly during periods of mass migration of certin ethnic people.  But the concern also is converts, how do we get them into our parishes enough to form their own parish?  The OCA in my area started this way, they got into this ethnic-non-ethnic battle with the local ROC and they formed their own mission parish with blessing from their Bishop.  It took years to build the parish up, even some time before they got a priest.  But a quarter of a century later they have a thriving parish.  But many areas may not have these.  The OCA aren't just going to start building parishes if there are no Orthodox Christians in the area interested in going to their parishes.  In fact, some OCA parishes even referted to an ethnic parish because most Orthodox in the area are of an ethnic group.  But the issue with the language is really more about Evangelizing others.  So where do we start if not the ethnic parishes?  Some of them has to make accomodations for non-ethnic people.  And once the converts have grown they can move out and form their own parish.  But someone has to plant the seeds for this.  You can't expect the OCA to just randomlly open parishes and hope for the best.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #202 on: September 27, 2012, 03:22:48 PM »
Hiwot amazing as usually.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 03:23:09 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #203 on: September 27, 2012, 03:53:46 PM »
habtesilasse, , the crux of the argument was not whether or not the DL should be sung, it was about needing an all English Liturgy and the need for using the spoken language of the people.

we all know the music does not translate well outside of the geez as it is, there is no argument there however  you were pontificating over how the notas were as sacred as the words,  and even said the fathers believe it to be so.

if what you have said was only that the notas make it difficult to adopt to other languages , none of the arguments would have existed , you have said plenty in the name of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, that is quite contrary to the Church's Tradition.

 as to you being white,you can be green , it does not matter, what matters is when you insinuate that such and such church needs to stick to its roots  quoting a certain Markus ,which roots was Markus talking about?hmm? the spiritual roots of Orthodoxy? hmm? the fetish of the exotic has lured many, the self proclaimed enlightened hippies of various races, had got it in their minds that certain people need to act a certain way to assert and maintain the purity of a certain identity. sorry some of us do not buy that filth. the joke is when someone says stuff like you said,' but i am white how can i say this' its like some blacks say some racial slur and think its okay because they are black too lol its just too funny to hear.

as to discussing the zema, you used the zema to denounce the need for using the vernacular in the DL, when the orthodox challenged your position rightfully so, you retreated into an idolatrous statements just to hold on to the fetish, rather than Serve Christ's Commandment to His Church. that you have done it claiming the Church Father's as authority is quite astounding.

you then move on to give a demeaning lecture about the potential converts in America, etc. I have no time to go into each points now, everyone can read what you wrote so far, and they are trying to educate you in the best way they can: what the Orthodox Tradition is about. the Crux of the Argument is closely tied to the Great Commission of the Church of Christ.  

take whatever position you chose.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #204 on: September 27, 2012, 04:01:32 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

habtesilasse, , the crux of the argument was not whether or not the DL should be sung, it was about needing an all English Liturgy and the need for using the spoken language of the people.

That is not at all what I was talking about. I was talking about why the Liturgy is sung in Ge'ez, and explaining that it was more than just a matter of preference, it was a logistical reality.  I admit I was not aware that there were Liturgies which were NOT chanted in Ge'ez, but I have never experienced them.

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we all know the music does not translate well outside of the geez as it is, there is no argument there however..

THANK YOU ;)

However Michal Kalina clearly didn't know that, hence why I had to explain such..


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as to discussing the zema, you used the zema to denounce the need for using the vernacular in the DL, when the orthodox challenged your position rightfully so, you retreated into an idolatrous statements just to hold on to the fetish, rather than Serve Christ's Commandment to His Church. that you have done it claiming the Church Father's as authority is quite astounding.

How did I do that exactly when I mentioned specifically and several times that in our Liturgy the prayers that are spoken and the scriptures that are read are in vernaculars, but the chanted and sung portions are rightfully in Ge'ez  :P

such as here
Indeed, we do have several of the prayers and readings made in Vernaculars, from Amharic and Tigrenya to English, but again, at every Liturgy, be it the Divine Liturgy or a Liturgy at Baptism, there are chants in Ge'ez which folks are obliged to learn.  This is the history and culture of the Ethiopian Church, and it is part of our unique circumstances within the Orthodox world.  Ge'ez is not "God's language" but we do hold Saint Yared's complicated system of musical notation to be divinely inspired,

Also check reply #149 and reply #152 :)
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you then move on to give a demeaning lecture about the potential converts in America, etc. I have no time to go into each points now, everyone can read what you wrote so far, and they are trying to educate you in the best way they can: what the Orthodox Tradition is about. the Crux of the Argument is closely tied to the Great Commission of the Church of Christ.  
That is your opinion and you are free to have it, but a lot of other folks were quite happy to agree with my posts about increasing our efforts to integrate our youth and converts into the parish network actively and directly.  My argument is and has always been that we can't just translate things, sit back and watch the Church grow.  We have to WORK at it. The WORK is more important than the translations by a long shot! We can disagree, but I didn't find anything demeaning in my post, neither did others here, and honestly I am truly sorry you feel that way :(



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 04:10:26 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #205 on: September 27, 2012, 04:14:26 PM »
habteselassie you think the other orthodox in here do not understand that musical notas are difficult to translate from Greek to English etc. they know and they have gone through that also. but you acted as if because we say st. yared was guided by the Holy Spirit when he composed his music that others can not be guided by the Holy Spirit to integrate the Amharic and the English to fit the established musical tradition.

you are the one who did not know that others know of such problems yet they focus on the real issue of ministering to the youth and to the possible converts among the people in the country of immigration,accomplishing the main mission of the Church is at the heart of their concern and their discussion, not to pontificate about their musical notas  and/or belittle the good intention of the possible converts.

ps. you are wrong, singing is done in ge'ez alone, however chanting can be done in amharic as well, which makes it a good percentage of the DL in most EOTCs

another edit, your last paragraph is so funny lol what exactly is translating and making sure the youth are educated and formed in the Gospel in the language they understand qualify as? a waste of time? what qualifies as work to you? going to the park may be?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 04:40:46 PM by Hiwot »
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #206 on: September 27, 2012, 04:21:08 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

habteselassie you think the other orthodox in here do not understand that musical notas are difficult to translate from Greek to English etc. they know and they have gone through that also. but you acted as if because we say st. yared was guided by the Holy Spirit when he composed his music that others can not be guided by the Holy Spirit to integrate the Amharic and the English to fit the established musical tradition.
I didn't mean to suggest that it can't happen, I was merely explaining why it hasn't happened yet :)

Also please see reply #200

Quote from: habteselassie
Quote

it does not mean that it is impossible for it to be adopted in the future, to deny that possibility  would be ridiculous. It will require a combined effort of secular and church musicians to make a universal music that easily crosses over different languages and God willing it will be done as it has been done for other hymns of the church.

I also didn't suggest this, rather that considering how merciless complex and intricate the musical notation system is that it seems like a tall order

 :P

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 04:22:28 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline sheenj

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #207 on: September 27, 2012, 04:31:42 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

habteselassie you think the other orthodox in here do not understand that musical notas are difficult to translate from Greek to English etc. they know and they have gone through that also. but you acted as if because we say st. yared was guided by the Holy Spirit when he composed his music that others can not be guided by the Holy Spirit to integrate the Amharic and the English to fit the established musical tradition.
I didn't mean to suggest that it can't happen, I was merely explaining why it hasn't happened yet :)

Also please see reply #200

Quote from: habteselassie
Quote

it does not mean that it is impossible for it to be adopted in the future, to deny that possibility  would be ridiculous. It will require a combined effort of secular and church musicians to make a universal music that easily crosses over different languages and God willing it will be done as it has been done for other hymns of the church.

I also didn't suggest this, rather that considering how merciless complex and intricate the musical notation system is that it seems like a tall order

 :P

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I'll ask one more time, why can't the hierarchs employ some monks to create a new system of music for Amharic or English? If the Ge'ez system can't be imported, then it is their duty to create a new one. That has been the Orthodox Tradition for many centuries now.

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #208 on: September 27, 2012, 04:36:49 PM »
as you can see , what you have said has caused quite a stir, from all directions, but now that you have effectively backpedaled on all the things relevant to the main disccusion , that you have suggested and insinuated,canceling out one of your arguments with another, we are good. the air has been cleared.

thank you.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline Hiwot

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #209 on: September 27, 2012, 04:38:50 PM »
my brother sheenji, you have asked an excellent question, and made an excellent statement as well. ;D
To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #210 on: September 27, 2012, 04:56:05 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I'll ask one more time, why can't the hierarchs employ some monks to create a new system of music for Amharic or English? If the Ge'ez system can't be imported, then it is their duty to create a new one. That has been the Orthodox Tradition for many centuries now.

That is out of my hands, neither I or Sister Hiwot qualify as such hierarchs, all I can testify is my own experience.  Again, when I asked why I had to learn Ge'ez, it was explained to me that Ge'ez is the system employed for the chants.  Hiwot has confirmed this in reply #193 and reply #203.  I can't explain why the Fathers haven't worked on something different, I can only just explain what the Fathers have already done or in this case, haven't done yet  :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 04:58:39 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline sheenj

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #211 on: September 27, 2012, 05:08:18 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



I'll ask one more time, why can't the hierarchs employ some monks to create a new system of music for Amharic or English? If the Ge'ez system can't be imported, then it is their duty to create a new one. That has been the Orthodox Tradition for many centuries now.

That is out of my hands, neither I or Sister Hiwot qualify as such hierarchs, all I can testify is my own experience.  Again, when I asked why I had to learn Ge'ez, it was explained to me that Ge'ez is the system employed for the chants.  Hiwot has confirmed this in reply #193 and reply #203.  I can't explain why the Fathers haven't worked on something different, I can only just explain what the Fathers have already done or in this case, haven't done yet  :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Maybe all it will take is for someone to ask their bishop. They are (usually) not unreasonable people so I'm sure at least one Bishop will be willing to compose liturgical music for use by those unfamiliar with Ge'ez.

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #212 on: September 27, 2012, 08:57:39 PM »
As a cradle Orthodox in America, I can assure you that growing up listening to a language that we couldn't understand left us completely uneducated in the Orthodox faith. Most of the children who grew up in my home parish have left the faith they could not understand.

This is why I felt the need to point out that the Ethiopian fathers are not Habte's fathers (not because I wanted to give the guy a hard time, but because I wanted to underscore that his atypical).

The above is a typical experience of "cradle" Orthodox Christians in so-called diaspora, and I can assure you that things are much worse here in Australia than they are in the States.

There is not a single English-only parish in our archdiocese. Not one.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #213 on: September 28, 2012, 11:02:50 AM »
The hymnology of our Church and the Divine Liturgy itself have always had a didactic component. Before the invention of the printing press, people would hear the Bible and theology in the hymns and Liturgy.

If they can't understand the language (many do not, more will not as time passes, because for good or ill, this is a primarily English-speaking country) that component is lost.
The Greeks have made intensive efforts to teach the language to their children with really very little success.
This is reality - perhaps not the way some would want it, but it is reality.
And it is also what the Church has always done - after all we have numerous examples throughout history from Sts. Cyril and Methodios to St. Herman of our church translating the services into the common language, the vernacular, of the people.
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #214 on: September 28, 2012, 11:18:06 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

As a cradle Orthodox in America, I can assure you that growing up listening to a language that we couldn't understand left us completely uneducated in the Orthodox faith. Most of the children who grew up in my home parish have left the faith they could not understand.

This is why I felt the need to point out that the Ethiopian fathers are not Habte's fathers (not because I wanted to give the guy a hard time, but because I wanted to underscore that his atypical).
That I can both respect, understand, and relate too :)

Please let me reiterate what my point has been since page 2.  In our Ethiopian jurisdiction, we have the Liturgy in Ge'ez and mixed in with the recited prayers and readings in vernaculars.  The sung portion is in Ge'ez.  To address BoredMeeting's point, I agree that if our youth do not understand the Church they will leave.  However, from my direct experience working with youth in our parish for several years now, I can say that the Liturgy and hymns simply aren't enough to replace a good and thorough catechism.   So as I said initially in the first pages, we can't just translate things and hope for the best, we have to increase our actual efforts teaching, explaining, and networking our youth to integrate them socially into the parish life.  Kids respons much better to the direct attention :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline sheenj

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #215 on: September 28, 2012, 12:25:28 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

As a cradle Orthodox in America, I can assure you that growing up listening to a language that we couldn't understand left us completely uneducated in the Orthodox faith. Most of the children who grew up in my home parish have left the faith they could not understand.

This is why I felt the need to point out that the Ethiopian fathers are not Habte's fathers (not because I wanted to give the guy a hard time, but because I wanted to underscore that his atypical).
That I can both respect, understand, and relate too :)

Please let me reiterate what my point has been since page 2.  In our Ethiopian jurisdiction, we have the Liturgy in Ge'ez and mixed in with the recited prayers and readings in vernaculars.  The sung portion is in Ge'ez.  To address BoredMeeting's point, I agree that if our youth do not understand the Church they will leave.  However, from my direct experience working with youth in our parish for several years now, I can say that the Liturgy and hymns simply aren't enough to replace a good and thorough catechism.   So as I said initially in the first pages, we can't just translate things and hope for the best, we have to increase our actual efforts teaching, explaining, and networking our youth to integrate them socially into the parish life.  Kids respons much better to the direct attention :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Yeah, I have to disagree. So much of our Theology and Christology is encapsulated in the Liturgy, that when it is properly translated, it becomes the perfect catechism.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #216 on: September 28, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Yeah, I have to disagree. So much of our Theology and Christology is encapsulated in the Liturgy, that when it is properly translated, it becomes the perfect catechism.

I am not denying that.  In fact, one of the focuses of my Sunday School work is precisely to explain and teach about the Liturgy. Further, I encourage our youth to attend most frequently, while getting there as early as possible to experience the mystery.  However, again, just standing them in the Church isn't necessarily enough, our youth today need it to be taught and explained as well as experienced so they can make sense of what they are experiencing and what is expected of them.  The Tradition is dense and complex, we can't expect young people just to figure it out for themselves.  I am not trying to diminish the significance of the Liturgy, rather enhance it through education and integration.

stay blessed,\
habte Selassie
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:30:58 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #217 on: September 28, 2012, 12:34:01 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Yeah, I have to disagree. So much of our Theology and Christology is encapsulated in the Liturgy, that when it is properly translated, it becomes the perfect catechism.

I am not denying that.  In fact, one of the focuses of my Sunday School work is precisely to explain and teach about the Liturgy. Further, I encourage our youth to attend most frequently, while getting there as early as possible to experience the mystery.  However, again, just standing them in the Church isn't necessarily enough, our youth today need it to be taught and explained as well as experienced so they can make sense of what they are experiencing and what is expected of them.  The Tradition is dense and complex, we can't expect young people just to figure it out for themselves.  I am not trying to diminish the significance of the Liturgy, rather enhance it through education and integration.

stay blessed,\
habte Selassie

We can do all for Gods with us.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #218 on: September 28, 2012, 01:44:23 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


We can do all for Gods with us.

Amen!

So by God's Grace lets aim for our ALL and not cut it short in any aspect :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 01:44:35 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #219 on: September 28, 2012, 03:13:31 PM »
It looks like we are arriving at a common position. I will try to put on the table what I think I have heard so far:

1. All English services are absolutely necessary.

2. At the same time that our jurisdictions are using all English services, we must continue to use existing liturgical languages for two reasons:

2a. Make sure that the translations to English are done correctly, particularly to convey their deep theological content.

2b. Make sure that the needs of recent immigrants are taken care of.

3. Proficiency in the liturgical languages must be maintained in order to continue to be able to pass on what we have received.

Is this about right?

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #220 on: September 28, 2012, 04:12:54 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It looks like we are arriving at a common position. I will try to put on the table what I think I have heard so far:

1. All English services are absolutely necessary.

2. At the same time that our jurisdictions are using all English services, we must continue to use existing liturgical languages for two reasons:

2a. Make sure that the translations to English are done correctly, particularly to convey their deep theological content.

2b. Make sure that the needs of recent immigrants are taken care of.

3. Proficiency in the liturgical languages must be maintained in order to continue to be able to pass on what we have received.

Is this about right?

Amen! What is so good and pleasant as brothers dwelling together in harmony as the Psalmist wrote..

Yes but I would also add that  4A would be an increase in Liturgy specific classes and lessons and a 4B that extensive catechism should be implemented.  Also a point 5 should be fellowship and socially integrative activities to build a sense of community amongst our young folks and converts :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 04:13:35 PM by HabteSelassie »
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline Father H

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #221 on: September 28, 2012, 05:18:11 PM »
BTW I agree with the question on page 1 as to whether if Liturgy was at 5:45am would people show up?

In Cyprus, whether weekday or Sunday, church begins 6:30am and it does not seem to effect numbers whatsoever. I've come to prefer it to the later service times we normally have over here.

I presume you mean Orthros starts at 6:30?  Cool, this suggests that Divine Liturgy finishes at least at 9:00 with homily (assuming they take the standard abbreviations normally seen in Greek usage).  FWIW, Orthros begins every day at 7AM at St. Dimitrios in Thessaloniki (services finishing around 10:30 if Divine Liturgy is celebrated).    I don't notice that Orthros attendance is any less there than anywhere else, meaning that time is not necessarily a pastoral impediment.  

http://www.inad.gr/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=111

Of course, early Orthros+Liturgy is not quite what some people advocating two liturgies are advocating - rather, two Divine Liturgies (I know of few places outside ROCOR that do all services seperately and bilingually), effectively creating two parishes in the same building.  

Yes, it is Orthros that begins at 6:30.  I have not been to Cyprus since 2004, but have 5 former parishioners who currently live there.  The younger people and others with a Saturday night-life simply don't go.  It is the same in South America.  As Archbishop Jeremiah told me, his Liturgy is later in the morning and more people come as the result of it (than they did when he had it earlier) because of the later bed-times of people on Saturday.  In America, we have people who like to sleep in a bit.  While I would prefer a Liturgy start time between 8am and 9am in the morning and more in accord with the Typikon, it would be far fewer people. 

BTW @LBK, while I agree that it is a matter of priorities, is it not better to have a more full Church later?  Anywhere in the US that has two priests and two liturgies has a more full church in the later liturgy.  This indicates a preference to the latter. 
 

Offline Kerdy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #222 on: September 28, 2012, 05:54:06 PM »
As a cradle Orthodox in America, I can assure you that growing up listening to a language that we couldn't understand left us completely uneducated in the Orthodox faith. Most of the children who grew up in my home parish have left the faith they could not understand.
^This, although Im not a cradle.

If my parish were not in English, I'd probably be agnostic by now.

PP
I wouldn't be agnostic, but I certainly wouldn't be active in any church.  We speak very little Greek, just enough to make a person want to learn it, so it's up to the individual.  On feast days, being Pan, our priest will have portions done in each language of whomever is in attendance (Russian, Serbian, Greek, etc).  It's very nice.

Offline mike

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #223 on: September 29, 2012, 06:05:47 AM »
Please, stop saying the Liturgy is in Russian...
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #224 on: September 29, 2012, 06:21:35 AM »
Please, stop saying the Liturgy is in Russian...
Who said it was in Russian?

If you meant me, I was speaking of jurisdiction.  If not me, carry on good sir!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 06:48:12 AM by Kerdy »