Author Topic: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy  (Read 36339 times)

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2012, 08:12:31 AM »
Changing things for the sake of changing makes my gut go bananas.

When needed, it's not changing for the sake of changing, it's changing for the sake of legitimate pastoral needs within the parish.  The introduction of Church Slavonic was precisely such a change, the same goes for Coptic, Arabic, Armenian, Georgian, Latin, Ge'ez or any other language we regard as "traditional". Only Greek, and perhaps also Syriac, can be considered inherently traditional liturgical languages, yet the tradition of the Church has been to translate where needed.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2012, 10:40:36 AM »
Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline jmbejdl

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2012, 10:45:11 AM »
Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.

Unfortunately I'm not sure it works like that - I've known ethnic parishes filled only with the old, still using their own language exclusively while the younger generations have long since gone elsewhere, presumably for exactly the reason you've identified above.

James
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2012, 11:01:29 AM »
Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.

Unfortunately I'm not sure it works like that - I've known ethnic parishes filled only with the old, still using their own language exclusively while the younger generations have long since gone elsewhere, presumably for exactly the reason you've identified above.

James


This is, fortunately or unfortunately - depending on your pov, a fairly common pattern in immigrant churches. I was formerly Lutheran and attended a German Lutheran church (it's first name in the late 1800's was the German Lutheran Congregation). Up until WWII, services, catechism and church council meetings were in German. And up until fairly recently, in Lutherland (Minnesota and Wisconsin), small towns would have several Lutheran churches - the Swedish, Norwegian, German, Finnish churches and then the English-language church that all their children went to.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2012, 02:26:29 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.

My dear, you are only pointing out the crux of the problem! Much of the Canons, writings, prayers, and Tradition of the Church are often written in the mother tongue which the youth lose in several generations.  So if they either (a) do not translate the ENTIRETY of the Tradition into different languages or (b) build the youth on a solid foundation within the Church and the Holy Spirit then we lose them entirely precisely because as you say, time changes things.  For Sola Scripture Protestants, what concerns them is that the Tradition seems to change, mature, and grow with us.  This is true by the way, but the Tradition evolves in the Holy Spirit to change and grow and mature along with ourselves who are continually living in this same process of growth as humans.  The Tradition is rooted in the continuity of Church history, and it grows with us.  We translate things to accommodate how we are growing as a Body of Christ, incorporating other cultures and peoples into this holistic Organism.  When we try to transmit our mother tongue languages to the next generations we are not trying to burden or hinder them, rather we are trying to empower and enfranchise them to better understand the Tradition, and as our reverend Metropolitan told our youth at a meeting last year, "You do not want to become Ethiopian ferenj (foreigner) in your own culture, in your own homeland, to your own people."   

Marcus Garvey taught us a tree without its roots is dead, we have to cultivate the branches and remind them of their roots, even as Apostle Paul suggests in Romans 11.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline sheenj

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2012, 02:34:55 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.

My dear, you are only pointing out the crux of the problem! Much of the Canons, writings, prayers, and Tradition of the Church are often written in the mother tongue which the youth lose in several generations.  So if they either (a) do not translate the ENTIRETY of the Tradition into different languages or (b) build the youth on a solid foundation within the Church and the Holy Spirit then we lose them entirely precisely because as you say, time changes things.  For Sola Scripture Protestants, what concerns them is that the Tradition seems to change, mature, and grow with us.  This is true by the way, but the Tradition evolves in the Holy Spirit to change and grow and mature along with ourselves who are continually living in this same process of growth as humans.  The Tradition is rooted in the continuity of Church history, and it grows with us.  We translate things to accommodate how we are growing as a Body of Christ, incorporating other cultures and peoples into this holistic Organism.  When we try to transmit our mother tongue languages to the next generations we are not trying to burden or hinder them, rather we are trying to empower and enfranchise them to better understand the Tradition, and as our reverend Metropolitan told our youth at a meeting last year, "You do not want to become Ethiopian ferenj (foreigner) in your own culture, in your own homeland, to your own people."   

Marcus Garvey taught us a tree without its roots is dead, we have to cultivate the branches and remind them of their roots, even as Apostle Paul suggests in Romans 11.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
What's wrong with translating the body of Tradition? That was what was done in Ethiopia from Coptic to Ge'ez was it not? And before that in Egypt from Greek to Coptic and then Arabic. Why not do it from Ge'ez to Amharic and all the regional languages? I feel like monks and nuns in Monasteries and Convents have enough time on their hands for such an endeavor.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2012, 02:39:17 PM »
Language attrition patterns are what they are regardless of the language used at church. I'm not even sure why this is considered a debatable point. Without a relatively constant influx of immigrants from the "old country" (e.g., Spanish-speakers from nearby Spanish-speaking territories), or at the very least strong contacts with those who remain there (possible due to modern communication), the language will die out. The question is what should the Church's response be. In some cases (e.g., Coptic Church), the churches are quite new and it probably is more a matter of having the first American-reared generation growing up now make a smart choice for English, hopefully without completely losing the traditional language (as I've said, I like how we do it with 80% in the English and 20% in Coptic and Arabic, though the exact percentages should ideally be a function of the makeup of the community) as it is the source of the traditional sources of knowledge (i.e., Coptic chant wouldn't exist in English as it does if it hadn't first existed in Coptic, and we might conceivably end up in a situation where N-th generation Coptic people and converts pick up Protestant-style worship for lack of a suitable English alternative; I would hope that we would see this as even more objectionable than keeping 5% or 10% or whatever in the traditional language, mostly or completely in the form of set responses....even in the most debased RC masses, for instance, they still keep the "Kyrie Eleison" in Greek, even if they step all over it with some atrocious organ or piano or something).

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2012, 02:43:09 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.

My dear, you are only pointing out the crux of the problem! Much of the Canons, writings, prayers, and Tradition of the Church are often written in the mother tongue which the youth lose in several generations.  So if they either (a) do not translate the ENTIRETY of the Tradition into different languages or (b) build the youth on a solid foundation within the Church and the Holy Spirit then we lose them entirely precisely because as you say, time changes things.  For Sola Scripture Protestants, what concerns them is that the Tradition seems to change, mature, and grow with us.  This is true by the way, but the Tradition evolves in the Holy Spirit to change and grow and mature along with ourselves who are continually living in this same process of growth as humans.  The Tradition is rooted in the continuity of Church history, and it grows with us.  We translate things to accommodate how we are growing as a Body of Christ, incorporating other cultures and peoples into this holistic Organism.  When we try to transmit our mother tongue languages to the next generations we are not trying to burden or hinder them, rather we are trying to empower and enfranchise them to better understand the Tradition, and as our reverend Metropolitan told our youth at a meeting last year, "You do not want to become Ethiopian ferenj (foreigner) in your own culture, in your own homeland, to your own people."   

Marcus Garvey taught us a tree without its roots is dead, we have to cultivate the branches and remind them of their roots, even as Apostle Paul suggests in Romans 11.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
What's wrong with translating the body of Tradition? That was what was done in Ethiopia from Coptic to Ge'ez was it not? And before that in Egypt from Greek to Coptic and then Arabic. Why not do it from Ge'ez to Amharic and all the regional languages? I feel like monks and nuns in Monasteries and Convents have enough time on their hands for such an endeavor.

Not necessarily anything in particular, but it seems like A LOT more work than getting a few kids to learn their parents' language, after all, if we translate everything, in the process we actually cement the generational divide much more so than we bridge the gap :)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline sheenj

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2012, 02:48:20 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.

My dear, you are only pointing out the crux of the problem! Much of the Canons, writings, prayers, and Tradition of the Church are often written in the mother tongue which the youth lose in several generations.  So if they either (a) do not translate the ENTIRETY of the Tradition into different languages or (b) build the youth on a solid foundation within the Church and the Holy Spirit then we lose them entirely precisely because as you say, time changes things.  For Sola Scripture Protestants, what concerns them is that the Tradition seems to change, mature, and grow with us.  This is true by the way, but the Tradition evolves in the Holy Spirit to change and grow and mature along with ourselves who are continually living in this same process of growth as humans.  The Tradition is rooted in the continuity of Church history, and it grows with us.  We translate things to accommodate how we are growing as a Body of Christ, incorporating other cultures and peoples into this holistic Organism.  When we try to transmit our mother tongue languages to the next generations we are not trying to burden or hinder them, rather we are trying to empower and enfranchise them to better understand the Tradition, and as our reverend Metropolitan told our youth at a meeting last year, "You do not want to become Ethiopian ferenj (foreigner) in your own culture, in your own homeland, to your own people."   

Marcus Garvey taught us a tree without its roots is dead, we have to cultivate the branches and remind them of their roots, even as Apostle Paul suggests in Romans 11.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
What's wrong with translating the body of Tradition? That was what was done in Ethiopia from Coptic to Ge'ez was it not? And before that in Egypt from Greek to Coptic and then Arabic. Why not do it from Ge'ez to Amharic and all the regional languages? I feel like monks and nuns in Monasteries and Convents have enough time on their hands for such an endeavor.

Not necessarily anything in particular, but it seems like A LOT more work than getting a few kids to learn their parents' language, after all, if we translate everything, in the process we actually cement the generational divide much more so than we bridge the gap :)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
And what about getting the kids to learn a language even their parents do not understand?

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2012, 02:56:04 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





Just wait awhile, and the whole language issue will be a moot point, since second, third and fourth generations are typically not fluent in the language of their parents or grandparents, if they speak it at all.

My dear, you are only pointing out the crux of the problem! Much of the Canons, writings, prayers, and Tradition of the Church are often written in the mother tongue which the youth lose in several generations.  So if they either (a) do not translate the ENTIRETY of the Tradition into different languages or (b) build the youth on a solid foundation within the Church and the Holy Spirit then we lose them entirely precisely because as you say, time changes things.  For Sola Scripture Protestants, what concerns them is that the Tradition seems to change, mature, and grow with us.  This is true by the way, but the Tradition evolves in the Holy Spirit to change and grow and mature along with ourselves who are continually living in this same process of growth as humans.  The Tradition is rooted in the continuity of Church history, and it grows with us.  We translate things to accommodate how we are growing as a Body of Christ, incorporating other cultures and peoples into this holistic Organism.  When we try to transmit our mother tongue languages to the next generations we are not trying to burden or hinder them, rather we are trying to empower and enfranchise them to better understand the Tradition, and as our reverend Metropolitan told our youth at a meeting last year, "You do not want to become Ethiopian ferenj (foreigner) in your own culture, in your own homeland, to your own people."   

Marcus Garvey taught us a tree without its roots is dead, we have to cultivate the branches and remind them of their roots, even as Apostle Paul suggests in Romans 11.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
What's wrong with translating the body of Tradition? That was what was done in Ethiopia from Coptic to Ge'ez was it not? And before that in Egypt from Greek to Coptic and then Arabic. Why not do it from Ge'ez to Amharic and all the regional languages? I feel like monks and nuns in Monasteries and Convents have enough time on their hands for such an endeavor.

Not necessarily anything in particular, but it seems like A LOT more work than getting a few kids to learn their parents' language, after all, if we translate everything, in the process we actually cement the generational divide much more so than we bridge the gap :)



stay blessed,
habte selassie
And what about getting the kids to learn a language even their parents do not understand?

Then it sounds like we are getting way ahead of ourselves and the parents and grandparents have a little something to work on too ;)

Let me reiterate, I am not opposed to translating, however I think in the intentions folks have about translations in the context of this thread, I'd say they are a bandaid more so than a long term solution.  What happens when Spanish or Chinese overtakes English as the dominant world language? Do we all suddenly switch to these languages? We can get very carried away with using translations as a quick fix, but they are not such effectively.  What folks fail to understand in their analysis is that today English is just another language like the languages the Church has used in the past.  So it is not a magical language.  It will not solve all our problems, indeed logistically it has the propensity to create several more.  So my point is we should more carefully and directly address the actual problems, rather then just trying to use language as some kind of panacea.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2012, 03:12:46 PM »
I did of my own free will find a parish where the majority of the liturgy is said in church-slavonic and when we monthly more or less have services in my native tongue (norwegian). I am fine with that. In many ways, there are two parish groups (not neccecarely always a good thing), but i accept it and will in time (if..God wills it) attempt to learn russian so i can communicate with the russians too.

Would i want all liturgy in my native tongue? No. Why? Because i knowlingly found a russian-orthodox parish knowing that the languages there were and is, russian and church slavonic. I am happy with that being so. It is a tradition and i do not wish to change that.

Changing things for the sake of changing makes my gut go bananas.

But how many people are like you?  This is the same issue with the Latins and those who prefer the Latin and the old Mass than the new Mass in the vernacular.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but are we missing the opportunity here to proclaim the Gospel to all nations?

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2012, 03:24:02 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


But how many people are like you?  This is the same issue with the Latins and those who prefer the Latin and the old Mass than the new Mass in the vernacular.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but are we missing the opportunity here to proclaim the Gospel to all nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  Further, a lot of converts bring this evangelical vibe into the Church, I know I did.  However, the Church taught me by experience that She is very busy taking care of the spiritual and emotional needs of the Faithful and baptized who've strayed away, let alone to be so concerned with changing the Church for the nations needs.  If God brings them to us, good and fine, we will work with the best as we are able by Grace.  However, we shouldn't hurt our own parishes out of the preparation for visitors, we are neglecting the family to be hospitable to the visitors, and that hurts EVERYONE mutually.  Further, you mentioned the Gospels, and indeed, I'm not quite sure we are debating about translating the Bible or the Gospels or the Scriptures, rather the Liturgy and the Tradition.  The Bible is readily available in many languages, and indeed many of our fathers should also begin to integrate English into their sermons and teachings, but I'm not quite sure that is the same thing as changing the Liturgy around for the sake of a handful of potential converts.  If we are talking about our own youth who are baptized cradles but Americans, well, again, I think that just changing the language to appease the needs of young folks is noble but self-defeating.  Rather, we need to integrate our youth into the parish and Church life, and if in the parish there are other languages then English, then these youth need to be on top of their language development to help their social development within the Church.  Its not about theology, its about life and living together as a community.  When we focus on English this way, sometimes we actually divide the Church more than we unify and bring it together.  Remember, we don't want to have separate English and other language speaking Orthodox parishes, where the young folks go to one and the older folks go to another, that is worse than before!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline sheenj

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2012, 03:26:06 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


But how many people are like you?  This is the same issue with the Latins and those who prefer the Latin and the old Mass than the new Mass in the vernacular.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but are we missing the opportunity here to proclaim the Gospel to all nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  Further, a lot of converts bring this evangelical vibe into the Church, I know I did.  However, the Church taught me by experience that She is very busy taking care of the spiritual and emotional needs of the Faithful and baptized who've strayed away, let alone to be so concerned with changing the Church for the nations needs.  If God brings them to us, good and fine, we will work with the best as we are able by Grace.  However, we shouldn't hurt our own parishes out of the preparation for visitors, we are neglecting the family to be hospitable to the visitors, and that hurts EVERYONE mutually.  Further, you mentioned the Gospels, and indeed, I'm not quite sure we are debating about translating the Bible or the Gospels or the Scriptures, rather the Liturgy and the Tradition.  The Bible is readily available in many languages, and indeed many of our fathers should also begin to integrate English into their sermons and teachings, but I'm not quite sure that is the same thing as changing the Liturgy around for the sake of a handful of potential converts.  If we are talking about our own youth who are baptized cradles but Americans, well, again, I think that just changing the language to appease the needs of young folks is noble but self-defeating.  Rather, we need to integrate our youth into the parish and Church life, and if in the parish there are other languages then English, then these youth need to be on top of their language development to help their social development within the Church.  Its not about theology, its about life and living together as a community.  When we focus on English this way, sometimes we actually divide the Church more than we unify and bring it together.  Remember, we don't want to have separate English and other language speaking Orthodox parishes, where the young folks go to one and the older folks go to another, that is worse than before!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I'm not sure if I would call nourishing our youth with spiritual food they can digest "appeasing" them.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 03:26:16 PM by sheenj »

Offline Jonathan

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #148 on: September 26, 2012, 03:57:53 PM »
Let me reiterate, I am not opposed to translating, however I think in the intentions folks have about translations in the context of this thread, I'd say they are a bandaid more so than a long term solution.  What happens when Spanish or Chinese overtakes English as the dominant world language? Do we all suddenly switch to these languages? We can get very carried away with using translations as a quick fix, but they are not such effectively.  What folks fail to understand in their analysis is that today English is just another language like the languages the Church has used in the past.  So it is not a magical language.  It will not solve all our problems, indeed logistically it has the propensity to create several more.  So my point is we should more carefully and directly address the actual problems, rather then just trying to use language as some kind of panacea.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Of course, prayer should be in the vernacular, whatever that is. No one is making English out to be a holy or magical language that is the solution to all problems. It is the vernacular, here and now. The Church has always prayed in the vernacular. Languages coming to be held up as holy or to be preserved because of their use in the Church, whehter slavic, Coptic, Ge'ez, whatever, is the deviation. We're not arguing for change in Orthodox practice. We're arguing for upholding the Orthodox tradition of praying in the vernacular. 1 Cor 14:15. This notion that it is a small work to teach all North Americans Coptic, or Greek, or Ge'ez, depending on what Orthodox jurisdiction they make contact with, is absurde. The Gospel is not to be held on to, it is to be proclaimed, to be offered to all. It doesn't matter if they want to take it or not, that is God's business. What matters is that we are responsible for freely giving what we have freely received. If we fail to do that, we will be judged. Whole generations are leaving churches that pray in a language that is not theirs. You can call them lazy for leaving, or we can do our duty to offer to them, just as St. Cyril the great offered to the Egyptians when he translated the Liturgy into to Coptic vernacular, just as St. Yared offered to the Ethiopians. It is not change, it is upholding the unchanging norm of the Church.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #149 on: September 26, 2012, 04:05:20 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Of course, prayer should be in the vernacular, whatever that is. No one is making English out to be a holy or magical language that is the solution to all problems. It is the vernacular, here and now. The Church has always prayed in the vernacular. Languages coming to be held up as holy or to be preserved because of their use in the Church, whehter slavic, Coptic, Ge'ez, whatever, is the deviation. We're not arguing for change in Orthodox practice. We're arguing for upholding the Orthodox tradition of praying in the vernacular. 1 Cor 14:15. This notion that it is a small work to teach all North Americans Coptic, or Greek, or Ge'ez, depending on what Orthodox jurisdiction they make contact with, is absurde. The Gospel is not to be held on to, it is to be proclaimed, to be offered to all. It doesn't matter if they want to take it or not, that is God's business. What matters is that we are responsible for freely giving what we have freely received. If we fail to do that, we will be judged. Whole generations are leaving churches that pray in a language that is not theirs. You can call them lazy for leaving, or we can do our duty to offer to them, just as St. Cyril the great offered to the Egyptians when he translated the Liturgy into to Coptic vernacular, just as St. Yared offered to the Ethiopians. It is not change, it is upholding the unchanging norm of the Church.

As I've stated, in our Ethiopian Liturgy, Saint Yared's musical notation does not readily adapt to Amharic, English or otherwise, hence why the Church has not changed it.  The petition prayers and indeed even parts of the Anaphora have already been translated in vernaculars.  However, we maintain a solid Ge'ez Liturgy through out its majority because we believe that the song of the prayer is the most solid and nourishing of the spiritual foods, and to translate this is to change the recipe :)




But how many people are like you?  This is the same issue with the Latins and those who prefer the Latin and the old Mass than the new Mass in the vernacular.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but are we missing the opportunity here to proclaim the Gospel to all nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  Further, a lot of converts bring this evangelical vibe into the Church, I know I did.  However, the Church taught me by experience that She is very busy taking care of the spiritual and emotional needs of the Faithful and baptized who've strayed away, let alone to be so concerned with changing the Church for the nations needs.  If God brings them to us, good and fine, we will work with the best as we are able by Grace.  However, we shouldn't hurt our own parishes out of the preparation for visitors, we are neglecting the family to be hospitable to the visitors, and that hurts EVERYONE mutually.  Further, you mentioned the Gospels, and indeed, I'm not quite sure we are debating about translating the Bible or the Gospels or the Scriptures, rather the Liturgy and the Tradition.  The Bible is readily available in many languages, and indeed many of our fathers should also begin to integrate English into their sermons and teachings, but I'm not quite sure that is the same thing as changing the Liturgy around for the sake of a handful of potential converts.  If we are talking about our own youth who are baptized cradles but Americans, well, again, I think that just changing the language to appease the needs of young folks is noble but self-defeating.  Rather, we need to integrate our youth into the parish and Church life, and if in the parish there are other languages then English, then these youth need to be on top of their language development to help their social development within the Church.  Its not about theology, its about life and living together as a community.  When we focus on English this way, sometimes we actually divide the Church more than we unify and bring it together.  Remember, we don't want to have separate English and other language speaking Orthodox parishes, where the young folks go to one and the older folks go to another, that is worse than before!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
I'm not sure if I would call nourishing our youth with spiritual food they can digest "appeasing" them.

I am not sure that just translating the Tradition or the Liturgy is going to make the spiritual food any more digestible in the first place! Rather as Apostle Paul has explained with this same metaphor, that

Quote
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal.

If we do nothing to help the youth mature and grow as a community, they remain babes in Christ, even if we force feed them solid foods which their spiritual capacities are yet able to digest! We have to carry them along and help them to grow into spiritual adulthood, that requires constant and diligent efforts on our parts to explain things, to integrate them into the parish community, to involve them, but language is only a single facet of this process, it is not necessarily the lynch pin.

Further like in Hebrews 5

Quote
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

We as their mentors and teachers must give them the milk first, not force feed them solid foods. We must help them to grow and mature as  Apostle Paul has said, "who by reason have use of their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."  We have to keep up on this exercise, that means effort.  If language is part of that effort, fine, but there is a lot more to do than just translate texts and give them to the kids and say, "Here you go, now you should stay in the Church."  They are not yet mature enough spiritually to even realize that what we'd be giving them is food, they'd be unable to digest it! This will only give them a spiritual stomach ache which will make them all the more wary ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:08:50 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #150 on: September 26, 2012, 04:09:36 PM »
Additionally, as other churches have experienced, (such as the Greeks, for example), it's really not enough to simply try to teach the language to all the children, if they are not using it on a daily basis. I know many Americans of Greek heritage who know only a few words, despite having been forced to attend Greek school every week.

I agree that we absolutely must minister to our parish communities and the peoples' needs, but surely that is not all that we are called to do?

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #151 on: September 26, 2012, 04:17:23 PM »

As I've stated, in our Ethiopian Liturgy, Saint Yared's musical notation does not readily adapt to Amharic, English or otherwise, hence why the Church has not changed it.  The petition prayers and indeed even parts of the Anaphora have already been translated in vernaculars.  However, we maintain a solid Ge'ez Liturgy through out its majority because we believe that the song of the prayer is the most solid and nourishing of the spiritual foods, and to translate this is to change the recipe :)


Except the recipe was already changed when the liturgy was translated to to Ge'ez. If that was fine, then why not change the recipe again?

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #152 on: September 26, 2012, 04:27:00 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


As I've stated, in our Ethiopian Liturgy, Saint Yared's musical notation does not readily adapt to Amharic, English or otherwise, hence why the Church has not changed it.  The petition prayers and indeed even parts of the Anaphora have already been translated in vernaculars.  However, we maintain a solid Ge'ez Liturgy through out its majority because we believe that the song of the prayer is the most solid and nourishing of the spiritual foods, and to translate this is to change the recipe :)


Except the recipe was already changed when the liturgy was translated to to Ge'ez. If that was fine, then why not change the recipe again?

Again, the liturgical language of Ge'ez is not just a spoken language or an alphabet, but a system of corresponding syllabic musical notation.  In the Ethiopian experience, we have yet to find a system to readily adapt this musical system to any other language.  That being said, our Fathers have felt that the sound is as integrally a part of the crucially Holy recipe as is the words themselves.  From my direct experience with the Ethiopian Liturgy in particular, I can agree.  So we have indeed translated some prayers and readings of our Liturgy into vernaculars, but the core prayers and songs have been maintained across 1400 years of Ethiopian history.  If 1400 years of multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-lingual Ethiopians didn't have a problem with this transmission and process, why should we suddenly change it because of the American experience? Americans are soft about languages, Africans LOVE learning new languages. Maybe the American experience can benefit by adapting to the Ethiopian experience of respecting the Ge'ez liturgy? After all, the Ethiopian Church has already more than compromised and translated so much into English, why can't English speakers also then compromise and match the efforts of the Church by trying to learn the Ge'ez liturgy? And again, from my experience as an American, its really not that difficult, its a matter of effort more than intellectual capacity or absorption, because I of all peoples am typically American and therefore typically terrible with learning new languages ;)

Let me reiterate, I am not entirely opposed to translating things into vernaculars (the Liturgy aside), however I am wary of folks who believe this is a quick fix or a panacea, and in all my meetings and discussions with many folks about this issue, that seems to be a common sentiment. Language is only a small part of what we need to do to integrate Americanized youth and Americans in to the Church, but again it isn't necessarily the lynch pin which will unburden the entire process.  We still got A LOT of work to do on the ground day in and day out as a community.



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habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:28:26 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #153 on: September 26, 2012, 04:28:26 PM »
Marcus Garvey taught us a tree without its roots is dead, we have to cultivate the branches and remind them of their roots, even as Apostle Paul suggests in Romans 11.
I didn't know he spoke Ge'ez and used to be an Oriental Orthodox theologian.
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #154 on: September 26, 2012, 04:30:29 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


As I've stated, in our Ethiopian Liturgy, Saint Yared's musical notation does not readily adapt to Amharic, English or otherwise, hence why the Church has not changed it.  The petition prayers and indeed even parts of the Anaphora have already been translated in vernaculars.  However, we maintain a solid Ge'ez Liturgy through out its majority because we believe that the song of the prayer is the most solid and nourishing of the spiritual foods, and to translate this is to change the recipe :)


Except the recipe was already changed when the liturgy was translated to to Ge'ez. If that was fine, then why not change the recipe again?

Again, the liturgical language of Ge'ez is not just a spoken language or an alphabet, but a system of corresponding syllabic musical notation.  In the Ethiopian experience, we have yet to find a system to readily adapt this musical system to any other language.  That being said, our Fathers have felt that the sound is as integrally a part of the crucially Holy recipe as is the words themselves.  From my direct experience with the Ethiopian Liturgy in particular, I can agree.  So we have indeed translated some prayers and readings of our Liturgy into vernaculars, but the core prayers and songs have been maintained across 1400 years of Ethiopian history.  If 1400 years of multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-lingual Ethiopians didn't have a problem with this transmission and process, why should we suddenly change it because of the American experience? Americans are soft about languages, Africans LOVE learning new languages. Maybe the American experience can benefit by adapting to the Ethiopian experience of respecting the Ge'ez liturgy? After all, the Ethiopian Church has already more than compromised and translated so much into English, why can't English speakers also then compromise and match the efforts of the Church by trying to learn the Ge'ez liturgy? And again, from my experience as an American, its really not that difficult, its a matter of effort more than intellectual capacity or absorption, because I of all peoples am typically American and therefore typically terrible with learning new languages ;)

Let me reiterate, I am not entirely opposed to translating things into vernaculars (the Liturgy aside), however I am wary of folks who believe this is a quick fix or a panacea, and in all my meetings and discussions with many folks about this issue, that seems to be a common sentiment. Language is only a small part of what we need to do to integrate Americanized youth and Americans in to the Church, but again it isn't necessarily the lynch pin which will unburden the entire process.  We still got A LOT of work to do on the ground day in and day out as a community.



stay blessed,
habte selassie
Your forefathers went to the trouble of creating a completely new music system so that they could celebrate the Divine Eucharist in their native language. What's wrong with doing that for today's languages?

Edit: I'm not saying completely change the music system, but surely you can modify it to be compatible with the vernacular? That's what happened in India at least, we took the Syriac Modal system and modified it to be more "Indian".
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:35:08 PM by sheenj »

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #155 on: September 26, 2012, 04:45:00 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Marcus Garvey taught us a tree without its roots is dead, we have to cultivate the branches and remind them of their roots, even as Apostle Paul suggests in Romans 11.
I didn't know he spoke Ge'ez and used to be an Oriental Orthodox theologian.

No but you can cut the facetious scoffing, because the Honorable Marcus Garvey did imbue quite a bit of wisdom, in particular to this issue. Again, we are arguing the same things, that the tree must be in contact with the root, however we are discussing the approach and methodology for achieving this connection.  My premise is (a) just translating languages alone can't do this, if that were the case, why has it not exactly worked out for the Catholics or Protestants and (b) in our own Ethiopian experience we can't readily change things as other jurisdictions can, it is far more complicated than that.

Your forefathers went to the trouble of creating a completely new music system so that they could celebrate the Divine Eucharist in their native language. What's wrong with doing that for today's languages?

Edit: I'm not saying completely change the music system, but surely you can modify it to be compatible with the vernacular? That's what happened in India at least, we took the Syriac Modal system and modified it to be more "Indian".

There is nothing wrong with it, except for (a) it doesn't work in any other language but Ge'ez because it is a syllabic musical notation system which can't be modified because the syllables have to match and (b) our Fathers have considered the musical notation as sacred in the Tradition as the words themselves, so asking us to change the music would be as sacrilegious as just asking us to change the words :)

Please understand I mean no disrespect to other jurisdictions, but in our Ethiopian experience we simply can't do what others do, we have different circumstances and histories which we are duty bound to respect. During the 20th century we began to readily translate what could be don into vernaculars, and our contemporary fathers discovered the same wisdom our forefathers had in regards to the Ge'ez liturgical system, that it simply couldn't be adapted. So again, we have plenty of prayers and readings in vernaculars, just not the entirety of the Liturgy proper.  Lord have His mercy, is that not compromise enough?


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:48:47 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2012, 04:45:45 PM »
Language may not be the lynch-pin, but it's certainly important. It's difficult to see how you can integrate anyone into anything if they don't understand what you are saying to them.
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #157 on: September 26, 2012, 04:47:18 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Your forefathers went to the trouble of creating a completely new music system so that they could celebrate the Divine Eucharist in their native language. What's wrong with doing that for today's languages?

Edit: I'm not saying completely change the music system, but surely you can modify it to be compatible with the vernacular? That's what happened in India at least, we took the Syriac Modal system and modified it to be more "Indian".

There is nothing wrong with it, except for (a) it doesn't work in any other language but Ge'ez because it is a syllabic musical notation system which can't be modified because the syllables have to match and (b) our Fathers have considered the musical notation as sacred in the Tradition as the words themselves, so asking us to change the music would be as sacrilegious as just asking us to change the words :)

Please understand I mean no disrespect to other jurisdictions, but in our Ethiopian experience we simply can't do what others do, we have different circumstances and histories which we are duty bound to respect. During the 20th century we began to readily translate what could be don into vernaculars, and our contemporary fathers discovered the same wisdom our forefathers had in regards to the Ge'ez liturgical system, that it simply couldn't be adapted. So again, we have plenty of prayers and readings in vernaculars, just not the entirety of the Liturgy proper.  Lord have His mercy, is that not compromise enough?


stay blessed,
habte selassie



There's nothing wrong with any of it, except that in a generation or two, no one will be able to understand it.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2012, 04:49:10 PM »
our Fathers have considered the musical notation as sacred in the Tradition as the words themselves, so asking us to change the music would be as sacrilegious as just asking us to change the words :)

Yet your fathers changed the music to fit the vernacular of their time (Ge'ez), were they wrong to do so?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:51:49 PM by sheenj »

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2012, 04:53:29 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


But how many people are like you?  This is the same issue with the Latins and those who prefer the Latin and the old Mass than the new Mass in the vernacular.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but are we missing the opportunity here to proclaim the Gospel to all nations?

That is a matter of opinion.  Further, a lot of converts bring this evangelical vibe into the Church, I know I did.  However, the Church taught me by experience that She is very busy taking care of the spiritual and emotional needs of the Faithful and baptized who've strayed away, let alone to be so concerned with changing the Church for the nations needs.  If God brings them to us, good and fine, we will work with the best as we are able by Grace.  However, we shouldn't hurt our own parishes out of the preparation for visitors, we are neglecting the family to be hospitable to the visitors, and that hurts EVERYONE mutually.  Further, you mentioned the Gospels, and indeed, I'm not quite sure we are debating about translating the Bible or the Gospels or the Scriptures, rather the Liturgy and the Tradition.  The Bible is readily available in many languages, and indeed many of our fathers should also begin to integrate English into their sermons and teachings, but I'm not quite sure that is the same thing as changing the Liturgy around for the sake of a handful of potential converts.  If we are talking about our own youth who are baptized cradles but Americans, well, again, I think that just changing the language to appease the needs of young folks is noble but self-defeating.  Rather, we need to integrate our youth into the parish and Church life, and if in the parish there are other languages then English, then these youth need to be on top of their language development to help their social development within the Church.  Its not about theology, its about life and living together as a community.  When we focus on English this way, sometimes we actually divide the Church more than we unify and bring it together.  Remember, we don't want to have separate English and other language speaking Orthodox parishes, where the young folks go to one and the older folks go to another, that is worse than before!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No, I did not talk about the Bible.  I talked about the Gospel.  The Gospel is proclaimed in the Liturgy.  It is through the Divine Liturgy that we experience the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.  If people feel alienated by it, how can we say it is indeed the Kingdom?  St. Paul did bring the faith to the culture of the Gentiles.  I'm not saying we should abandon the ethnic parishes for the immigrants, but we also have the responsibility to evangelize the locals.  As the article that started this thread states, we are to support those ethnic communities.  But the reality is that the Church also has that responsibility of evangelizing all other people, not just its current membership.  And how do you do this if everyone else is a foreigner to the local church?

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2012, 04:57:19 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


No, I did not talk about the Bible.  I talked about the Gospel.  The Gospel is proclaimed in the Liturgy.  It is through the Divine Liturgy that we experience the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.  If people feel alienated by it, how can we say it is indeed the Kingdom?  St. Paul did bring the faith to the culture of the Gentiles.  I'm not saying we should abandon the ethnic parishes for the immigrants, but we also have the responsibility to evangelize the locals.  As the article that started this thread states, we are to support those ethnic communities.  But the reality is that the Church also has that responsibility of evangelizing all other people, not just its current membership.  And how do you do this if everyone else is a foreigner to the local church?

I think I have more than explained myself and the position of the Ethiopian Church on this matter, I am finished with it.  I am not trying to convince folks in other jurisdictions NOT to translate things, just to better understand why in the context of the Liturgy Ethiopians simply can't! Further, I can only reiterate one last time, just translating languages will not solve our problems which is a community disconnect.  It is a very American approach to assume that if folks can read something, that they will suddenly do such.  In my experience, that is hardly the case. There must be a BILLION Bibles sitting dusty on American shelves, very often completely unread.  It takes effort more so than any language to build community, and if we want to both integrate our youth and also our neighbors, we have to match more effort than just a translate and stand back and watch approach.  Language is only a facet of this process.  In the Ethiopian experience, it is a facet that we have particular obstacles towards which we can only work around, which we can't change.  

Further, from my own direct experience, it doesn't take an all-English Church for us Orthodox Christians to "evangelize" our neighbors, it takes an increasing effort on our parts.  Maybe the reality is folks just want to make it easier on themselves, but the easy way is not always what bearing our Crosses is all about :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:59:35 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2012, 04:58:53 PM »
our Fathers have considered the musical notation as sacred in the Tradition as the words themselves, so asking us to change the music would be as sacrilegious as just asking us to change the words

Kinda heretical and breaking the 1st commandment.

I wonder whether any cradles can confirm that. Hiwot?

Yet your fathers changed the music to fit the vernacular of their time (Ge'ez), were they wrong to do so?

He is a convert. His fathers have never heard of Ge'ez.
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2012, 05:10:19 PM »

He is a convert. His fathers have never heard of Ge'ez.
Are you related to all the fathers of the Orthodox Church?

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2012, 07:20:08 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

...

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 07:23:37 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #164 on: September 27, 2012, 12:13:37 AM »
Your forefathers went to the trouble of creating a completely new music system so that they could celebrate the Divine Eucharist in their native language. What's wrong with doing that for today's languages?

They are not his fathers.
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #165 on: September 27, 2012, 12:15:57 AM »
While that could be theologically reasonable option I don't think the fuss is about theology. People would still feel alien since they wouldn't understand all of the service.

My assumption here, though, is that those who don't understand are in a minority, and that the majority of the congregation would feel alienated were the whole service done in English.

The problem is that we cannot simply speak of congregations which exist, in the present tense, but should think about those which might potentially exist were the language of the liturgy readily understood.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #166 on: September 27, 2012, 08:36:36 AM »
The problem is that we cannot simply speak of congregations which exist, in the present tense, but should think about those which might potentially exist were the language of the liturgy readily understood.

You need a middle ground, though. If you alienate existing congregations there will be no church for the future ones either. What I think is a great shame is that almost every sizeable Greek church, at least here, has a Greek school attached to it, yet the children only learn modern Greek. I think liturgical Greek, with emphasis on the Divine Liturgy, should be made part of the syllabus in all Greek schools (I actually think it should be taught in all churches, regardless of jurisdiction, but the Greeks certainly have no excuse not to teach it).

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #167 on: September 27, 2012, 09:01:10 AM »
Your forefathers went to the trouble of creating a completely new music system so that they could celebrate the Divine Eucharist in their native language. What's wrong with doing that for today's languages?

They are not his fathers.
??? Just because he is not related to them, does that make them less his spiritual fathers?

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #168 on: September 27, 2012, 09:25:17 AM »
Your forefathers went to the trouble of creating a completely new music system so that they could celebrate the Divine Eucharist in their native language. What's wrong with doing that for today's languages?

They are not his fathers.
??? Just because he is not related to them, does that make them less his spiritual fathers?

Since when "forefathers" mean "spiritual fathers?
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #169 on: September 27, 2012, 09:34:31 AM »
Your forefathers went to the trouble of creating a completely new music system so that they could celebrate the Divine Eucharist in their native language. What's wrong with doing that for today's languages?

They are not his fathers.
??? Just because he is not related to them, does that make them less his spiritual fathers?

Since when "forefathers" mean "spiritual fathers?
From Webster.

Forefather: a person of an earlier period and common heritage.

The common heritage being The Orthodox Faith.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:34:45 AM by sheenj »

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #170 on: September 27, 2012, 09:45:27 AM »
Most of the parishioners in our parish are the older folks and babies.  Where did the youth go?  Teenagers, high schoolers?  Understandably, the college bound kids are away and may be attending Orthodox services where they go to school, but there is a gap that is very noticable that being the younger adults.  We now have a contingent of Russian immigrants who attend a Slavonic Service early on Sunday morning prior to the regular English service later on.  Again, it is attended by older folks and a few babies.  I guess, like everything else, it will take time for these things to be ironed out.  But, we need to address our youth more to get them back to church.  We have Sunday school which helps but only up to high school level.  I know in my younger years church didnt occupy my life like it does today.  This may be the case.  All churches are experiencing similar problems of attendance.  Of course, the youth today have more distractions to steal their attention from church.  This may be the major factor in all this.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:47:33 AM by JoeS2 »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #171 on: September 27, 2012, 10:11:20 AM »
The problem is that we cannot simply speak of congregations which exist, in the present tense, but should think about those which might potentially exist were the language of the liturgy readily understood.

You need a middle ground, though. If you alienate existing congregations there will be no church for the future ones either. What I think is a great shame is that almost every sizeable Greek church, at least here, has a Greek school attached to it, yet the children only learn modern Greek. I think liturgical Greek, with emphasis on the Divine Liturgy, should be made part of the syllabus in all Greek schools (I actually think it should be taught in all churches, regardless of jurisdiction, but the Greeks certainly have no excuse not to teach it).

You speak as if it is a given that Liturgical Greek must remain. I would think that with a little bit of effort, the liturgical (read ancient) languages that we have can yield to the vernacular: Slavonic to Bulgarian, Serbia, Russian, Ukrainian; liturgical Greek to modern Greek, etc... That said, of all liturgical languages, obviously our theologians must be fluent and our priests should be knowledgeable in Greek, not because of its liturgical use but because the New Testament was written in it.

Offline Agia Marina

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #172 on: September 27, 2012, 10:14:53 AM »
and yea i think they are "whining" and i dislike the whining, no them really, although some of them. no just kidding.

I see more posts from you in this thread than anyone else. Maybe you are the one whining...

No im not whining.

whining is:
why i gota go to church at 8am and they gota go 10am.
why do i have to learn anotheres customs when mine is the best.
why do i have to listen to it in you r language when i speek english.

thats what whining (anyway u spell it) is my firend!
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2012, 10:23:14 AM »
You speak as if it is a given that Liturgical Greek must remain.

In the diaspora, not must, but will for quite a while yet. In Greece and Cyprus, however, I do think it's a question of must. First of all, I've never met a Greek who actually wants the Liturgy in modern Greek, secondly I do think it is important that the original language of the Liturgy remains alive somewhere.

Quote
That said, of all liturgical languages, obviously our theologians must be fluent and our priests should be knowledgeable in Greek, not because of its liturgical use but because the New Testament was written in it.

Not just the New Testament, but also all our liturgical material (with the exception of more modern local feasts and saints), the vast majority of our patristic literature, etc. I do not think learning Greek should only be encouraged among academic theoelogians, but all Christians. Expecting any fluency would of course be far fetched, but basic knowledge is certainly possible if enough emphasis is put on it. Every mosque teaches Arabic, every synagogue Hebrew, why not Greek in every church? While we do not put the same emphasis on language as those faiths, I think we should put far more emphasis on it than we do now, and should encourage all who are able to learn.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2012, 10:31:55 AM »
Regarding the concept of liturgical languages, may I wonder if this concept is contrary to the Scriptures? I say this because the following passage from Acts 2 makes me think that God prefers people to hear the good news in their own languages:

"1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues (languages) as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 10:32:16 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #175 on: September 27, 2012, 10:33:51 AM »
Every mosque teaches Arabic, every synagogue Hebrew, why not Greek in every church? While we do not put the same emphasis on language as those faiths, I think we should put far more emphasis on it than we do now, and should encourage all who are able to learn.

Muslim consider Arabic to be God's language.
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #176 on: September 27, 2012, 10:45:18 AM »
Every mosque teaches Arabic, every synagogue Hebrew, why not Greek in every church? While we do not put the same emphasis on language as those faiths, I think we should put far more emphasis on it than we do now, and should encourage all who are able to learn.

Muslim consider Arabic to be God's language.

God is an Arab?  ;D

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #177 on: September 27, 2012, 10:57:07 AM »
Muslim consider Arabic to be God's language.

So do I, it's beautiful. But our lot fell with Greek, so, as far as languages go, learning that one will yield the most fruit for us Christians.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 10:57:29 AM by Orthodox11 »

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #178 on: September 27, 2012, 11:03:19 AM »
Muslim consider Arabic to be God's language.

So do I, it's beautiful. But our lot fell with Greek, so, as far as languages go, learning that one will yield the most fruit for us Christians.

I think it's most useful to learn Greek, but it has never had much place in the slavic tradition.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #179 on: September 27, 2012, 11:04:08 AM »
Muslim consider Arabic to be God's language.

So do I, it's beautiful. But our lot fell with Greek, so, as far as languages go, learning that one will yield the most fruit for us Christians.
Says who? Even the Apostles went and preached in the native language of their fold.