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Offline GTAsoldier

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Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« on: September 20, 2012, 05:20:37 PM »
A fantastic read on "Journey to Orthodoxy":

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2012/09/18/why-americans-need-an-all-english-liturgy/

Excerpt:
Quote
One of the major obstacles to the twenty first century becoming the Orthodox century is the language barrier.  In many American Orthodox parishes the Sunday Liturgy is either in a foreign language or a mixture of English and non-English.  Orthodox parishes with an all-English Liturgy tend to be in the minority.  This blog posting addresses why we need all-English worship services, what can be done about the present problem of people exiting through the backdoor, and how we can help make the twenty first century the Orthodox century.

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 05:27:22 PM »
Really?  I think there are plenty of societal factor that hit Christianity hard across the board that have a much larger impact on why the 21st Century is not the Orthodox Century that are far more pressing than whether we say Gospodi Pomiluy or Lord Have Mercy.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 06:04:52 PM »
I want to print that article out and frame it

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 08:41:54 PM »
all american liturgy?
what about all the ethnic orthodox who attend church, how would they feel abt it?
My church is 1/2 & 1/2 ish, everyone is happy.....well except my mother.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 08:45:40 PM »
wanted to also say; in another church further of a drive away from me (they are a larger parish3-4X larger) and have 2 liturgys on sunday. the first one is in Greek and the second is in English.

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 10:07:09 PM »
all american liturgy?
what about all the ethnic orthodox who attend church, how would they feel abt it?
My church is 1/2 & 1/2 ish, everyone is happy.....well except my mother.

The article said that ethnic parishes should not be done away with and should be respected.  But for Orthodoxy to grow, it needs to be in the local culture.  And I agree, the Orthodox parish that is thriving in our area is the OCA parish and it has already produced 2 or 3 daughter parishes from the one parish 25 years ago that started with only one family.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 11:52:51 PM »
OK i admit i did not read the entire article, read less then 1/2 and got turned off by it. I got the impression that the whole thing was going to be complaining on why we should stop diff languages in church, the usual new converts thinking they know better then the church and wanting to change the church. seems like most of the threads here are of that nature.

what do you think abt what i said: 2 liturgy's, one at 8am in diff language and one at 10am in English- dnt think you can complain abt that? only English speaking people get the liturgy in English, plus you can get the experience of belonging to an ethnic parish, which i think is important!!

or do you think its better to have a diff church for yourselves? if yes, i don't think its a good idea. you will miss out on things you did not know even existed. Orthodoxy is deep, very deep, don't assume you know everything. im cradal Orthodox and the more people i speak to the more i realise i dont know anything.

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 11:56:58 PM »
OK i admit i did not read the entire article, read less then 1/2 and got turned off by it. I got the impression that the whole thing was going to be complaining on why we should stop diff languages in church, the usual new converts thinking they know better then the church and wanting to change the church. seems like most of the threads here are of that nature.

what do you think abt what i said: 2 liturgy's, one at 8am in diff language and one at 10am in English- dnt think you can complain abt that? only English speaking people get the liturgy in English, plus you can get the experience of belonging to an ethnic parish, which i think is important!!

or do you think its better to have a diff church for yourselves? if yes, i don't think its a good idea. you will miss out on things you did not know even existed. Orthodoxy is deep, very deep, don't assume you know everything. im cradal Orthodox and the more people i speak to the more i realise i dont know anything.


I already belong to a parish like that, one very early morning Liturgy for English speakers that no one really cares to go to.  I mean, if we are going to attract converts do we also expect them to wake up so early on Sunday when most other Churches start their services later?  Plus, at least in my case, the authentic spirituality is still not there.  We really need to be separate, on our own.  As the article said, the faith is always brought to the different cultures.  Think Sts. Cyril and Methodius.  We who do not belong to the ethnicity of the parish need to be able to feel comfortable and grow in the faith without the pressure to absorb the culture.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 12:31:34 AM »
Ok, i just wrote 20 min worth of responces to you post, in a hevily sarcastic tone. I trying to be less conforntational in my life...i have a way of pissing people off. so i deleted everything i wrote and just left this.

YOU SAID: "I already belong to a parish like that, one very early morning Liturgy for English speakers that no one really cares to go to.  I mean, if we are going to attract converts do we also expect them to wake up so early on Sunday when most other Churches start their services later? "

are you telling me if church was at 5:45a.m. you would not go?


YOU SAID: "Plus, at least in my case, the authentic spirituality is still not there."

bring you own spirituality (BYOS)- no one can give it to you- we just set the stage for you.

I dont think its possible to absorb the complete faith without absorbing the culture also.


I gota say: Orthodoxy is not abt you------------its abt God.

I guess you can tell i fed up with new converts trying to change a 2000+ yr old faith. questioning everything, and winning oh my, the winning, just stop.
outa here before i

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 12:41:15 AM »
OK i admit i did not read the entire article, read less then 1/2 and got turned off by it. I got the impression that the whole thing was going to be complaining on why we should stop diff languages in church, the usual new converts thinking they know better then the church and wanting to change the church. seems like most of the threads here are of that nature.

I know, right? 'Cos such a high proportion of so-called "cradle" Orthodox Christians are big Church-attenders.

Damnable konvertsy.
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 12:50:29 AM »
I guess you can tell i fed up with new converts trying to change a 2000+ yr old faith. questioning everything, and winning oh my, the winning, just stop.
outa here before i

THIS!
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2012, 12:54:36 AM »
Well which is it, do you dislike them or do you think they're winning?  ???
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Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2012, 12:55:43 AM »
Ok, i just wrote 20 min worth of responces to you post, in a hevily sarcastic tone. I trying to be less conforntational in my life...i have a way of pissing people off. so i deleted everything i wrote and just left this.

YOU SAID: "I already belong to a parish like that, one very early morning Liturgy for English speakers that no one really cares to go to.  I mean, if we are going to attract converts do we also expect them to wake up so early on Sunday when most other Churches start their services later? "

are you telling me if church was at 5:45a.m. you would not go?

I probably would, but they don't put up a big building and spend thousand of dollars to operate it in a year just for me.  And the Church is not just for me.

YOU SAID: "Plus, at least in my case, the authentic spirituality is still not there."

bring you own spirituality (BYOS)- no one can give it to you- we just set the stage for you.

That is my problem, no one is setting it up for me.  At least where I am.  Mind you, my statements are not general but more from my own experience. I don't know what is out there in other cities, but at least where I live this is the scenario.

I dont think its possible to absorb the complete faith without absorbing the culture also.

So why are the Slavs still Slavs?  Why aren't they Greek?  If culture is attached to the faith, then we should all be Jewish Christians today.

I gota say: Orthodoxy is not abt you------------its abt God.

I guess you can tell i fed up with new converts trying to change a 2000+ yr old faith. questioning everything, and winning oh my, the winning, just stop.
outa here before i

That comment swings both ways.  Why enforce culture that is not the culture of the land?  It's not about being Greek or Ukrainian or Russian, it is about God.  In fact, a very good Ukrainian Orthodox man told me that.  He went to the OCA instead of the UOC.  He said that the faith should be focused on God, not Ukraine or Russia or whatever.  And he said he refuses to attend ethnic parishes any longer.  And this is a Ukrainian man!

And as I said above, change a 2000 year old faith? There were no Greeks or Ukrainians or Russians at the beginning of the faith. It was only Jews. They changed the faith for Greeks, Slavs, Syriacs, etc.  Why are you being stubborn where the Apostles were not?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 12:57:26 AM by choy »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 02:40:05 AM »
What's with "ethnic parish"? "American" is not an ethnicity? Would American parish with all-English services crowded with American Black people be considered as an ethnic parish?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 02:41:01 AM by Alpo »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2012, 02:48:18 AM »
American, unless you're talking about Native Americans of various tribes (who might not have the same perspective on being "Americans" or English-speakers, after all), is not an ethnicity, no.

I have some issues with the thinking behind this article, but on the positive, anything that would better integrate the Orthodox faith into American society is good. It is not good to remain separate from the people you'd like to bring to the faith, but thankfully, as hinted at in the article, the linguistic makeup of any particular parish will generally change by the second American-born generation. That's just a natural consequence of language attrition patterns in the USA, but it works out in favor of evangelization and growth.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2012, 02:58:46 AM »
American, unless you're talking about Native Americans of various tribes (who might not have the same perspective on being "Americans" or English-speakers, after all), is not an ethnicity, no.

Well I can understand that but please do not make an assumption that other kind of nationalities are. Finland for one is not an ethnic concept and I'm not exactly confident that other European nationalities are either. :)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 03:00:06 AM by Alpo »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2012, 03:05:11 AM »
???

I'm confused. Did I make that assumption in my reply? I'm the closest thing to a European in my parish, and I'm not much of an ethnicity, myself. :)

Offline Alpo

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2012, 03:18:34 AM »
???

I'm confused. Did I make that assumption in my reply? I'm the closest thing to a European in my parish, and I'm not much of an ethnicity, myself. :)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I wasn't speaking to you specifically but to all of the people in here.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2012, 05:51:46 AM »
Americans can have an all English liturgy. Come on down to my western rite parish :)

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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2012, 08:30:11 AM »
What's with "ethnic parish"? "American" is not an ethnicity? Would American parish with all-English services crowded with American Black people be considered as an ethnic parish?

America is not about the ethnicity of her citizens but about ideology--the lofty principles embodied in her foundational documents. It may be that people of a particular ethnicity (or race as in your example) attend a particular church. I do not think that such a grouping would be considered normative and certainly not in line with the tenets of Christianity, even though it would be represented as Christianity+ as an attempt to justify it.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 08:49:16 AM »
What's so bad about liturgical languages? It adds to the mystery. AFAIK in Greece they still use Koinè in the liturgy, which is almost unintelligible to the average Greek.
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 08:57:59 AM »
What's so bad about liturgical languages? It adds to the mystery. AFAIK in Greece they still use Koinè in the liturgy, which is almost unintelligible to the average Greek.
It's alright every once in a while but to get the full benefit of the Liturgy, you need to understand the truths being spoken.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 09:02:32 AM »
What's so bad about liturgical languages? It adds to the mystery. AFAIK in Greece they still use Koinè in the liturgy, which is almost unintelligible to the average Greek.

I keep reading this but just don't buy it. Every Hellene is schooled in Homeric and Attic Greek which means Koine should be readily understandable. Moreover, even here, a period of time following the liturgy with a side by side Greek-English printed source eventually results in one knowing exactly what is being said in Greek. (I know I studied, and still do, Homeric, Attic,and Koine and so it might not come as easy for some, but I still think this is true.)
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 09:12:22 AM »
What's so bad about liturgical languages? It adds to the mystery. AFAIK in Greece they still use Koinè in the liturgy, which is almost unintelligible to the average Greek.

I keep reading this but just don't buy it. Every Hellene is schooled in Homeric and Attic Greek which means Koine should be readily understandable.

I have been schooled (well, still being schooled) in Attic and Homeric Greek, but I doubt I could keep up with that fast a pace.

Moreover, even here, a period of time following the liturgy with a side by side Greek-English printed source eventually results in one knowing exactly what is being said in Greek.

Exactly, so what's the problem with liturgical languages again?
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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 09:17:56 AM »
Exactly, so what's the problem with liturgical languages again?

They create false dichotomy between the Church and everyday life.

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 09:22:37 AM »
Exactly, so what's the problem with liturgical languages again?

They create false dichotomy between the Church and everyday life.

You have a point there.

I wonder, when the Jews spoke Aramaic in the time before Christ was the liturgy in the temple in Aramaic or did they retain Hebrew as liturgical language? And in Poland do they use Polish or Old Slavonic in the liturgy?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 09:23:22 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 09:24:10 AM »
This all depends on the makeup of the parish.  If all the members are American born, English should be the language, but if there is a good mix of both, then I favor a bilingual Divine Liturgy.  We also have to remember, we may have an influx of new immigrants, so they should be able to hear the Liturgy in their native tongue.  In our UOCUSA parish we use about 50/50.  In fact, there are some parts that both the priest and I do in both languages, as this will help both groups to learn a new language.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 11:05:23 AM »
This all depends on the makeup of the parish.  If all the members are American born, English should be the language, but if there is a good mix of both, then I favor a bilingual Divine Liturgy.  We also have to remember, we may have an influx of new immigrants, so they should be able to hear the Liturgy in their native tongue.  In our UOCUSA parish we use about 50/50.  In fact, there are some parts that both the priest and I do in both languages, as this will help both groups to learn a new language.
It also depends on what you want the makeup of the parish to be. If you want the parish to focus on its ministry to new immigrants (a necessary ministry, I would agree) then the use of that language is appropriate. However, if you want the parish to focus on its ministry to the children and grandchildren of those immigrants - and to proclaim the Gospel to the community at large - then the use of English ought to be your choice. Please understand that I do not see the two as being mutually exclusive. How that may play out in a parish will differ depending on local circumstances. For example, you may want to have most services in English with a few in the other language; or occasionally instead of, or perhaps in addition to English. Or you may have bilingual services. But what do you mean by that? Some parts in English only, some in other language only? Or by repeating most things? And if the former, will you switch the two parts on a regular basis so no one is left out?

These are just questions. I have the luxury of being in a mission parish that is English-speaking with only an occasional nod to Arabic, and even less to Greek. In fact, those who speak those languages are insistent that we use English. I guess that's why we feel OK with an occasional use of their language, which I know they appreciate though not likely to admit it  ;).

I might challenge you though on your statement that a new language will be learned in our services. Most people will simply tune out the other language. They may pick up the occasional phrase, or may learn a few brief hymns and prayers, but that's about it. Conversational ability won't develop. Besides, from what I read in this forum, liturgical Greek, certainly Old Slavonic, perhaps others, have little practical use outside the liturgical services. How many congregations speak Old Slavonic at coffee hour or in the business meetings? What I read once somewhere - probably on this forum - was that the language used in your parish council meetings should be the language used in the Divine Liturgy.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 11:14:57 AM »
What's so bad about liturgical languages? It adds to the mystery.

Is such "mystery" (read: cluelessness) the purpose of our worship?
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Offline mike

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 11:16:17 AM »
I wonder, when the Jews spoke Aramaic in the time before Christ was the liturgy in the temple in Aramaic or did they retain Hebrew as liturgical language? And in Poland do they use Polish or Old Slavonic in the liturgy?

Polish in 4 places (in 2 of them there are also Liturgies in CS served too), Ukrainian in a few, rest (>200) in CS.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2012, 11:17:02 AM »
Putting the Church's services in the vernacular does not somehow debase it to the language of the street. The language of our prayers is inherently otherworldly, regardless of the type of language used to translate it.
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Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 01:55:02 PM »
i can settle the language problem.
if its a Russian parish--liturgy will be in Russian.
if its a Greek parish---litturgy in Greek.
so on and so forth.

Now arrive all the converts:
as the percentage changes in the Church converts vs cradle, so does the liturgy language. until it become 50-50.
 
I'm my parish when i first moved there the priest asked me, while handing out the Adideron what i prefered English or Greek, everyone turned around to see what i was going to say (i think its become an issue in my parish also). i said i don't care either way is fine for me. NO ONE liked my answer, everyone had a sad or annoyed face, it was funny.

(btw:i don't hate converts! i jst wish they would just go with the flow more as opposed to questioning everything and trying to change things. especially the brand new converts just crismated--all of a sudden demand things be different?)

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 02:08:55 PM »
i can settle the language problem.
if its a Russian parish--liturgy will be in Russian.
if its a Greek parish---litturgy in Greek.
so on and so forth.

Now arrive all the converts:
as the percentage changes in the Church converts vs cradle, so does the liturgy language. until it become 50-50.
 
I'm my parish when i first moved there the priest asked me, while handing out the Adideron what i prefered English or Greek, everyone turned around to see what i was going to say (i think its become an issue in my parish also). i said i don't care either way is fine for me. NO ONE liked my answer, everyone had a sad or annoyed face, it was funny.

(btw:i don't hate converts! i jst wish they would just go with the flow more as opposed to questioning everything and trying to change things. especially the brand new converts just crismated--all of a sudden demand things be different?)


I hope you understand, people want the faith to be theirs as much as you want it to be yours.  A foreign culture mixed with a faith is really confusing to us interlopers.  And it is furstrating if there are more people at peroggy making days than there are for Vespers or Great Feast Liturgies on a weekday.

Offline mike

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 02:10:55 PM »
i can settle the language problem.
if its a Russian parish--liturgy will be in Russian.
if its a Greek parish---litturgy in Greek.
so on and so forth.

Liturgy in Russian? AFAIK there are no more than 3 places with such thing.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2012, 02:23:50 PM »
i can settle the language problem.
if its a Russian parish--liturgy will be in Russian.
if its a Greek parish---litturgy in Greek.
so on and so forth.

Now arrive all the converts:
as the percentage changes in the Church converts vs cradle, so does the liturgy language. until it become 50-50.
 
I'm my parish when i first moved there the priest asked me, while handing out the Adideron what i prefered English or Greek, everyone turned around to see what i was going to say (i think its become an issue in my parish also). i said i don't care either way is fine for me. NO ONE liked my answer, everyone had a sad or annoyed face, it was funny.

(btw:i don't hate converts! i jst wish they would just go with the flow more as opposed to questioning everything and trying to change things. especially the brand new converts just crismated--all of a sudden demand things be different?)


I hope you understand, people want the faith to be theirs as much as you want it to be yours.  A foreign culture mixed with a faith is really confusing to us interlopers.  And it is furstrating if there are more people at peroggy making days than there are for Vespers or Great Feast Liturgies on a weekday.

i would not use as harsh a term as "interlopers"!
(interloper=A person who becomes involved in a place or situation where they are not wanted or are considered not to belong)
at least in my parish, converts are wanted and treated very nicely. so im thinking is it possible where you are, its not like my parish? are you not treated as friends, as part of the congragation, or is it just that you feal your not a part of them?

And: the faith is yours-and mine- it cant be taken away form you or me!
re: the perrogie comment: i thnk you have some sort of an issue (founded or not, i dont know) with the natinalityof your parish, thats a question?
------------
quick story (fwiw): for a bunch or years i was budhhist. being a budhist encompasess the asian culture. i dont think you can be a buddhist and not be emmerged and a part of the culture! i feel the same woth Orthodoxy, its a package deal. you will be missing out on alot if you try to seperate the culture from the religion.

Offline TristanCross

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2012, 02:25:10 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

In America, England, and Australia, the Liturgy is in many languages (primarily Greek or Russian). Why? I don't know. The people of these lands don't speak those languages. Maybe it's the fact that Russians and Greeks think they are of a superior race. Sorry, but it's annoying how Russian Christians talk about Russia as if Russia is the new Israel. The truth is: there's nothing special about Russia...and I'm under ROCOR! Yet I also believe that the the OCA has more of a right to claim to be the American Orthodox Church than any other church (when missionaries came to Bulgaria, they did not institute the Russian Church of Bulgaria or the Greek Church of Bulgaria. No. They made the Bulgarian Church.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 02:25:33 PM by TristanCross »
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2012, 02:27:15 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

In America, England, and Australia, the Liturgy is in many languages (primarily Greek or Russian). Why? I don't know. The people of these lands don't speak those languages. Maybe it's the fact that Russians and Greeks think they are of a superior race. Sorry, but it's annoying how Russian Christians talk about Russia as if Russia is the new Israel. The truth is: there's nothing special about Russia...and I'm under ROCOR! Yet I also believe that the the OCA has more of a right to claim to be the American Orthodox Church than any other church (when missionaries came to Bulgaria, they did not institute the Russian Church of Bulgaria or the Greek Church of Bulgaria. No. They made the Bulgarian Church.)

That is the problem I think.  It is immigrants who put up churches in North America, not missionaries.  So the focus was always ethnicity and culture, not evangelizing the "natives".

Offline TristanCross

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2012, 02:28:26 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

In America, England, and Australia, the Liturgy is in many languages (primarily Greek or Russian). Why? I don't know. The people of these lands don't speak those languages. Maybe it's the fact that Russians and Greeks think they are of a superior race. Sorry, but it's annoying how Russian Christians talk about Russia as if Russia is the new Israel. The truth is: there's nothing special about Russia...and I'm under ROCOR! Yet I also believe that the the OCA has more of a right to claim to be the American Orthodox Church than any other church (when missionaries came to Bulgaria, they did not institute the Russian Church of Bulgaria or the Greek Church of Bulgaria. No. They made the Bulgarian Church.)

That is the problem I think.  It is immigrants who put up churches in North America, not missionaries.  So the focus was always ethnicity and culture, not evangelizing the "natives".

That's the problem. We are no longer a country of immigrants. We've been here generations and now have our own culture and people.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 02:29:48 PM by TristanCross »
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2012, 02:38:26 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

In America, England, and Australia, the Liturgy is in many languages (primarily Greek or Russian). Why? I don't know. The people of these lands don't speak those languages. Maybe it's the fact that Russians and Greeks think they are of a superior race. Sorry, but it's annoying how Russian Christians talk about Russia as if Russia is the new Israel. The truth is: there's nothing special about Russia...and I'm under ROCOR! Yet I also believe that the the OCA has more of a right to claim to be the American Orthodox Church than any other church (when missionaries came to Bulgaria, they did not institute the Russian Church of Bulgaria or the Greek Church of Bulgaria. No. They made the Bulgarian Church.)

Hee hee, funny............not realy:
 
BUT the greeks or russians or bulgarians did not move into (immigrate) the afore mentioned countries and establish Orthodoxy. the country accepted Orthodoxy so it was in the home lands language.
 
In america the greeks russians...immigrated into the usa and with them they brought there religion and now you want to change it as if it is your own. you should thank your russian greek bulgarian brotheres for enlightening you!
It  would have been diffrent if you had gone to russia or greece and lerned abt Orthodoxy there and brough tit back to the usa....then you could have orthodoxy in english.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2012, 02:39:03 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

In America, England, and Australia, the Liturgy is in many languages (primarily Greek or Russian). Why? I don't know. The people of these lands don't speak those languages. Maybe it's the fact that Russians and Greeks think they are of a superior race. Sorry, but it's annoying how Russian Christians talk about Russia as if Russia is the new Israel. The truth is: there's nothing special about Russia...and I'm under ROCOR! Yet I also believe that the the OCA has more of a right to claim to be the American Orthodox Church than any other church (when missionaries came to Bulgaria, they did not institute the Russian Church of Bulgaria or the Greek Church of Bulgaria. No. They made the Bulgarian Church.)

That is the problem I think.  It is immigrants who put up churches in North America, not missionaries.  So the focus was always ethnicity and culture, not evangelizing the "natives".

You see!

Offline mike

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2012, 02:39:45 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

Liturgy in Russia is in Church Slavonic (with 1-3 exceptions) not understood by Russians. Liturgy in Greece is in Koine not understood by modern Greeks.

Offline choy

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2012, 02:46:56 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

In America, England, and Australia, the Liturgy is in many languages (primarily Greek or Russian). Why? I don't know. The people of these lands don't speak those languages. Maybe it's the fact that Russians and Greeks think they are of a superior race. Sorry, but it's annoying how Russian Christians talk about Russia as if Russia is the new Israel. The truth is: there's nothing special about Russia...and I'm under ROCOR! Yet I also believe that the the OCA has more of a right to claim to be the American Orthodox Church than any other church (when missionaries came to Bulgaria, they did not institute the Russian Church of Bulgaria or the Greek Church of Bulgaria. No. They made the Bulgarian Church.)

Hee hee, funny............not realy:
 
BUT the greeks or russians or bulgarians did not move into (immigrate) the afore mentioned countries and establish Orthodoxy. the country accepted Orthodoxy so it was in the home lands language.
 
In america the greeks russians...immigrated into the usa and with them they brought there religion and now you want to change it as if it is your own. you should thank your russian greek bulgarian brotheres for enlightening you!
It  would have been diffrent if you had gone to russia or greece and lerned abt Orthodoxy there and brough tit back to the usa....then you could have orthodoxy in english.

Thank you Greeks and Russians for bringing your religion to us!  Now can we please have it in English! ;)

Offline TristanCross

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2012, 02:54:19 PM »
I hate nationalists...that's one of the reasons I can't stand so many Orthodox Christians. Are we the Universal Church or ethnic gatherings?
"Let the mouth also fast from disgraceful speeches and railings. For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor. "
— St. John Chrysostom

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2012, 02:56:21 PM »
In Russia, the Liturgy is in Russian. Why? Because Russians speak Russian.

In Greece, the Liturgy is in Greek. Why? Because Greeks speak Greek.

In Bulgaria, the Liturgy is in Bulgarian. Why? Because Bulgarians speak Bulgarian.

In America, England, and Australia, the Liturgy is in many languages (primarily Greek or Russian). Why? I don't know. The people of these lands don't speak those languages. Maybe it's the fact that Russians and Greeks think they are of a superior race. Sorry, but it's annoying how Russian Christians talk about Russia as if Russia is the new Israel. The truth is: there's nothing special about Russia...and I'm under ROCOR! Yet I also believe that the the OCA has more of a right to claim to be the American Orthodox Church than any other church (when missionaries came to Bulgaria, they did not institute the Russian Church of Bulgaria or the Greek Church of Bulgaria. No. They made the Bulgarian Church.)

Hee hee, funny............not realy:
 
BUT the greeks or russians or bulgarians did not move into (immigrate) the afore mentioned countries and establish Orthodoxy. the country accepted Orthodoxy so it was in the home lands language.
 
In america the greeks russians...immigrated into the usa and with them they brought there religion and now you want to change it as if it is your own. you should thank your russian greek bulgarian brotheres for enlightening you!
It  would have been diffrent if you had gone to russia or greece and lerned abt Orthodoxy there and brough tit back to the usa....then you could have orthodoxy in english.

Thank you Greeks and Russians for bringing your religion to us!  Now can we please have it in English! ;)

Ok, since you put it that way, yes you may.
just remember 10% go to the Greek and Russian of the top.
oh and of cours the franchise fee, is upfront.

Offline Nikolaostheservant

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Re: Journey to Orthodoxy: Why Americans Need An All-English Liturgy
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2012, 02:57:49 PM »
I hate nationalists...that's one of the reasons I can't stand so many Orthodox Christians. Are we the Universal Church or ethnic gatherings?

That is exactly what im trying to say!       you HATE NATINALISTS!  I kew it.