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Author Topic: Who is Vladimir Moss?? is he an orthodox Christian??  (Read 8399 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: September 20, 2012, 10:49:03 AM »

I am a protestant . Recently, I studied orthodoxy. I like its dotrince and enjoy the teaching of ancient faith radio. The concept of God in Orthodox church seems not as horrible and violence as the one in Protestant.

But, recently, I find out an orthodox christianity author called Vladimir moss. His writing or understanding about orginal sin, juridical, penal view, gospel seems closer to the teaching in {rotestant. He even criticizes the teaching of Steve Robinson in youtube(e.g. Love Wins - An Orthodox View / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8)   is a heretic teaching

I really don't like his teaching.....

Is he an orthodox christian??IS his teaching really the Orthodox one??Whay is your comment on his writing??

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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 10:50:12 AM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8


This is heretical teaching, a denial of the doctrine of Christ's Sacrifice for sin on the Cross, which is ORTHODOX teaching. It comes from the heretical teacher Fr. John Romanides, an ecumenist and newcalendarist.

Vladimir Moss   One week before



Is this true??
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 10:52:53 AM »

Is he an orthodox christian??IS his teaching really the Orthodox one??Whay is your comment on his writing??

Vladimir Moss is a schismatic and not a member of any canonical Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 10:55:20 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 11:08:05 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
The problem is when one represents those views as the only ones Orthodox Christians can have.
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 11:10:16 AM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 11:11:59 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
The problem is when one represents those views as the only ones Orthodox Christians can have.

Agreed. But then again it's not that different from the opposing party with Western Captivities and the like.
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walter1234
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 11:16:44 AM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

I even think that he is a protestant  or semi-protestant when I read his written work . His view on orginal sin, salvation, GOd's juridical, wrath, penal is just similar and closer to the teaching of protestant which I am believing now.

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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 11:22:01 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
The problem is when one represents those views as the only ones Orthodox Christians can have.

Agree, his written work can easily confuse the non-orthodox christian who is studying orthodoxy, like me!!
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 11:38:03 AM »

His view on orginal sin, salvation, GOd's juridical, wrath, penal is just similar and closer to the teaching of protestant which I am believing now.

Or perhaps Protestantism is closer to Orthodoxy than you've thought. Who knows, maybe Mr. Moss is right. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 01:32:41 PM »

my own thought is that the full truth is prolly a lil' Romanides and a lil' Moss.
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 01:56:20 PM »

Romanides was a canonical Orthodox Christian priest and full professor of theology, whose teachings are have a firm foundations in the Fathers.

Moss seems to be a schismatic, surely he cannot be considered on equal footing with Romanides. He also is the author of "Bolshevism and the Jews (Vladimir Moss)", a text which falls into the domain of obscure conspiracy theories.
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 02:07:45 PM »

I am reminding you that Fr. John Romanides was a priest and therefore he, as the forum rules say, has to be addressed here with his proper clergy title. Further violation of that rule will result in warnings.
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 02:23:56 PM »

Romanides was a canonical Orthodox Christian priest and full professor of theology, whose teachings are have a firm foundations in the Fathers.

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 02:35:11 PM »

How about Steve Robinson and his video ----- 'Love Wins - An Orthodox View'  ?

Vladimir Moss said that the teaching of this video(e.g. Love Wins - an orthodox view) is a heretic teaching, and it is not the orthodox view of salvation. Is it true??
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2012, 02:39:18 PM »

I honestly cant believe why anyone would claim Fr. John as a heretic. The little I have read of him, i have greatly enjoyed and he is an extremely honest (i find) interpreter of the EO/OO split and most likely contributed greatly to the warm relations we have today
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2012, 02:50:48 PM »

Romanides was a canonical Orthodox Christian priest and full professor of theology, whose teachings are have a firm foundations in the Fathers.

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.

His "religion is a neurobiological illness" schtick is very shaky to say the least. Such a concept is nowhere to be found in the Fathers. In some places I think by religion he means "idolatry" but he starts talking about spinal fluid, short-circuit between the brain and heart, etc., it's clear he's using a gimmick to pander to scientism and new-agey "spiritual not religious" nonsense.
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 02:54:39 PM »

Oh i agree with that. I just dont think that makes him 'not Orthodox' Tongue. Perhaps Fr. John did make some points as such lol, but i still like a few of his writings. Then again, I have not read a vast amount of his work so i am no expert!

On a side note: i feel the 'ecumenist' charge (as if thats a heresy, WHICH i agree it can be but not when it comes to EO/OO relations) is always so divisive
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2012, 02:55:01 PM »

To the OP: You might want to get a good reliable overview of Orthodoxy by a general catechism & then proceed from there. See:  

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 02:57:24 PM »

For the record, I don't think Fr. John is a heretic, but some people seem to adopt his peculiar views as a standard of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 02:58:38 PM »

hmm, interesting! The neurobiology stuff just seems to be unnecessary Tongue.

BUT i think we have diverged from the question of OP Cheesy. Sorry!
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2012, 03:05:10 PM »

hmm, interesting! The neurobiology stuff just seems to be unnecessary Tongue.

BUT i think we have diverged from the question of OP Cheesy. Sorry!

Apparently you have not read Orthodox Psychotherapy.

The Church as a hospital of our spiritual existence is hardy a fringe belief.
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2012, 03:05:56 PM »



But, recently, I find out an orthodox christianity author called Vladimir moss. His writing or understanding about orginal sin, juridical, penal view, gospel seems closer to the teaching in {rotestant. He even criticizes the teaching of Steve Robinson in youtube(e.g. Love Wins - An Orthodox View / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8)   is a heretic teaching



Vladimir Moss said that the teaching of Steve Robinson (e.g. Love Wins - an orthodox view  /  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8) is a heretic teaching, and it is not the orthodox view of salvation.

Is the criticism of vladimir Moss correct??
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2012, 03:10:44 PM »

im not able to watch the video right now, but i think there is a move to downplay or completely do away with the concept of God's justice and judgment --- its all just His love and light! i think Vladimir Moss is at least correctly motivated in calling attention to teachings on God's justice and judgment.
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2012, 03:14:53 PM »

Nevermind.
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2012, 03:18:26 PM »

hmm, interesting! The neurobiology stuff just seems to be unnecessary Tongue.

BUT i think we have diverged from the question of OP Cheesy. Sorry!

Apparently you have not read Orthodox Psychotherapy.

The Church as a hospital of our spiritual existence is hardy a fringe belief.

Right. But when someone starts saying that Orthodoxy is the way to get your spinal fluid or blood flowing correctly, we are definitely in fringe territory.
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2012, 04:00:12 PM »

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
First of all, we usually say "Blessed Augustine" in the Orthodox Church. Secondly, even the greatest supporters of Bl. Augustine in the Orthodox Church, such as Fr. Seraphim Rose, do not endorse him because of his theology, but because of his holy life.

I think it is pretty much consent in the Church that Bl. Augustine's theology contains flaws and it is not exactly a model for imitation, especially not if isolated from the Greek Fathers.

His "religion is a neurobiological illness" schtick is very shaky to say the least
The whole quote is "Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." So, by saying that, Fr. John Romanides made it quite clear that he did not call Orthodoxy "a neurobiological illness", on the contrary.
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2012, 04:23:12 PM »

I have not read that actually! Would you recommend it?

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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 02:51:18 AM »

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
First of all, we usually say "Blessed Augustine" in the Orthodox Church.

Is that a historical convention or modern innovation which was meant to convey his lesser status? We have other non-controversial Saints who are called as Blesseds but I wonder what Augustine has been historically called

Quote
Secondly, even the greatest supporters of Bl. Augustine in the Orthodox Church, such as Fr. Seraphim Rose, do not endorse him because of his theology, but because of his holy life.

IIRC Sts. Gregory Palamas and Photios enorsed him partly because of his theology. But anyway, this is irrelevant. He is a Holy Father and anyone who belittles any of the Holy Fathers has hardly firm foundations in Fathers.

I might have misunderstood what Fr. John had to say about Augustine though. If his view was more positive, feel free to correct me.

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I think it is pretty much consent in the Church that Bl. Augustine's theology contains flaws and it is not exactly a model for imitation, especially not if isolated from the Greek Fathers.

Present, non-historical consent. Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which other nationalities should be compared to and no Father can be read in isolation from the rest.
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 04:22:47 AM »

Is that a historical convention or modern innovation which was meant to convey his lesser status?
It is historical, already appears in the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

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IIRC Sts. Gregory Palamas and Photios enorsed him partly because of his theology.
Guess that would need a thread of its own. But I'd be interested to read the quotes by these two saints.

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But anyway, this is irrelevant. He is a Holy Father
His sainthood is extremely controversial in the Orthodox Church. And the reasons for that are in his theology. Ironically, the more yu push for his theology to be accepted, the more you encourage people who don't want him to be considered a saint at all. Would it not be a reasonable position to recognise his person holiness while admitting flaws in his theology?

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Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which other nationalities should be compared to
The western fathers such as Saints Ambrosius, Jerome, Hilarius, John Cassian etc. have the same theology as them. Bl. Augustine is the odd one out.
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« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2012, 05:08:02 AM »

IIRC Sts. Gregory Palamas and Photios enorsed him partly because of his theology.
Guess that would need a thread of its own. But I'd be interested to read the quotes by these two saints.

I must admit I've used only second hand source. That's what Orthodox Readings of Augustine by George E. Demacopoulos and Aristotle Papanikolaou is saying. I don't have a copy of it at hand but quick search offered at least something. See p. 12 and onwards.

Quote
But anyway, this is irrelevant. He is a Holy Father
His sainthood is extremely controversial in the Orthodox Church. And the reasons for that are in his theology. Ironically, the more yu push for his theology to be accepted, the more you encourage people who don't want him to be considered a saint at all. Would it not be a reasonable position to recognise his person holiness while admitting flaws in his theology?

Of course I admit that there might be some potential flaws in his theology. No one is disputing that. All I'm saying is that IMO it seems that the Orthodox are reading his writing a lot more critically than the rest of the Fathers' writings. No one is scandalized by Apokatastasis, attributing sins to the Mother of God or, say, imperfect explanation of Trinity by some of the Fathers but when Augustine makes some mistake there's a lot more scandal in that. The mistakes of Augustine should be overlooked like the mistakes of other Fathers' are overlooked.

That's the historical approach to the criticism of Augustine. IIRC when St. John Cassian was correcting Augustine's mistakes he was not even mentioning his name out of reverence for him.

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Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which other nationalities should be compared to
The western fathers such as Saints Ambrosius, Jerome, Hilarius, John Cassian etc. have the same theology as them. Bl. Augustine is the odd one out.

Well that could be true but that's just proof that Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which Latin, Arab etc. Fathers should be compared to. All Fathers regardless of nationalities should be consulted. We are the Catholic Church, not the Greek Church.
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« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 05:54:36 AM »

The mistakes of Augustine should be overlooked like the mistakes of other Fathers' are overlooked.
The mistakes of other fathers don't such a great wirkungsgeschichte*.


*although of German origin, this is used as an English word in some philosophical and theological texts. may be approximately translated as "history of effects".
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 06:16:24 AM »

The mistakes of Augustine should be overlooked like the mistakes of other Fathers' are overlooked.
The mistakes of other fathers don't such a great wirkungsgeschichte*.

Yes, they do. Remember St. Paul and Protestantism. While there aren't any errors in his epistles there are certain quotes from him which are widely misused as a basis for Protestantism.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I love German language. No other language can produce words like that. Grin
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 06:31:54 AM »

Yes, they do. Remember St. Paul and Protestantism. While there aren't any errors in his epistles there are certain quotes from him which are widely misused as a basis for Protestantism.
Yes, but I would seriously argue that here, the fault is not with St. Paul. Whereas Bl. Augustine could have avoided his mistakes by reading the Greek fathers.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I love German language. No other language can produce words like that. Grin

Thank you, but I guess all Germanic languages can do that. It is usually translated to Swedish as verkanshistoria.
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2012, 06:34:38 AM »

Yes, but I would seriously argue that here, the fault is not with St. Paul. Whereas Bl. Augustine could have avoided his mistakes by reading the Greek fathers.

He couldn't. St. Augustine had some problems with Greek.
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2012, 06:49:03 AM »

Thank you, but I guess all Germanic languages can do that. It is usually translated to Swedish as verkanshistoria.

But verkanshistoria sounds a lot more boring than wirkungsgeschichte. Swedish would need a lot more consonants to compete with German.

Btw, in Finnish that would be vaikutushistoria. We too lose to Germans.
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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2012, 06:55:47 AM »

Yes, but I would seriously argue that here, the fault is not with St. Paul. Whereas Bl. Augustine could have avoided his mistakes by reading the Greek fathers.

He couldn't. St. Augustine had some problems with Greek.
That's precisely my point. Instead of re-solving already better solved theological problems, he should have worked on his Greek.
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2012, 12:48:41 PM »

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
First of all, we usually say "Blessed Augustine" in the Orthodox Church.

"Blessed" and "Saint" are synonyms in the Orthodox Church. For example, Saint Theophylact of Ohrid is often called "Blessed."

Saint Augustine is a saint.
Quote
The whole quote is "Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." So, by saying that, Fr. John Romanides made it quite clear that he did not call Orthodoxy "a neurobiological illness", on the contrary.

Yes, I understand that he is making a distinction between Orthodoxy and "religion." My point is, it's a bogus distinction and a gimmick.
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« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2012, 01:55:12 PM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8


This is heretical teaching, a denial of the doctrine of Christ's Sacrifice for sin on the Cross, which is ORTHODOX teaching. It comes from the heretical teacher Fr. John Romanides, an ecumenist and newcalendarist.

Vladimir Moss   One week before



Is this true??

It is true that you should not take Mr. Moss's claim of heresy at face value. If he claims that Mr. Robinson's teaching is heretical, he should at least give a thorough explanation why. Unfortunately, Mr. Moss throws claims of heresy around like it is a hobby, but has he provided a more thorough explanation for his views anywhere?
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« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2012, 02:02:01 PM »

My point is, it's a bogus distinction and a gimmick.
Why do you think so?
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« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2012, 02:41:57 PM »

My point is, it's a bogus distinction and a gimmick.
Why do you think so?

Because Orthodoxy is a religion. Those who say, "Orthodoxy is not a religion" will usually define "religion" in a way that it is not defined in common discourse. They say "Orthodoxy is not a religion" to grab your attention, but when they finally explain themselves, they've really just shuffled some definitions around and are not saying anything new. Hence it's a gimmick.

Like I said, Fr. John is trying to couch Orthodox spirituality in terms of modern medicine and presenting it as some kind of science for properly aligning the heart and the brain, getting the proper flow of blood and spinal fluid, etc. He is appealing to materialism and scientism.

He says: We call religion a neurobiological sickness since it stems from a short-circuit between the nervous system centered in the heart, which circulates the spinal fluid, and the blood system centered in the heart which pumps blood throughout the body, including the nervous system. The cure of this sickness of religion is accomplished by repairing said short-circuit between the two hearts which pump blood and spinal fluid which allows them to function normally. In this normal state the various fantasies, religious and otherwise, produced by said short-circuit between the brain and the heart disappear and with them one's fantasies also disappear, including that of religion. The Bible calls this neurological energy the spirit of man which the Fathers came to call the noetic energy.

First of all, who is "we" in the first sentence? Where in any of the fathers do we find this peculiar idea of "religion" and Orthodoxy curing a "short-circuit" between the nervous system and the circulatory system?

Fr. John's approach in making a spiritual discipline out to be an empiricist medical science is disturbingly reminiscent of similar efforts by various new age gurus.
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« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2012, 02:52:41 PM »

You are criticising Fr. John for appealing to modern definitions, and yet you appeal to a modern definition of "religion", too. Did the Fathers call Orthodoxy a "religion"?
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« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2012, 03:39:37 PM »

You are criticising Fr. John for appealing to modern definitions, and yet you appeal to a modern definition of "religion", too.

Please point me to a pre-modern source defining religion (or comparable Latin/ Greek words) as "a neurobiological illness." The English word "religion" has Latin roots and has a very stable definition over time.

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Did the Fathers call Orthodoxy a "religion"?

 Fr. John uses the word threskeia which is found in the scriptures and the Fathers to describe the Christian religion.
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2012, 03:46:01 PM »

I think the problem with Steve Robinson's approach (he's not a priest right? If he is I'll add the Fr. to his name) is that it is much too unsophisticated. I don't think it holds up well under scrutiny.
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« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2012, 04:07:58 PM »

I think the problem with Steve Robinson's approach (he's not a priest right? If he is I'll add the Fr. to his name) is that it is much too unsophisticated. I don't think it holds up well under scrutiny.
He's some kind of minor clergy, but would probably get a good laugh to find out people were referring to him with some kind of liturgical title.
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« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2012, 05:19:41 PM »

Romanides was a canonical Orthodox Christian priest and full professor of theology, whose teachings are have a firm foundations in the Fathers.

Moss seems to be a schismatic, surely he cannot be considered on equal footing with Romanides. He also is the author of "Bolshevism and the Jews (Vladimir Moss)", a text which falls into the domain of obscure conspiracy theories.
When it comes to issues of Original Sin though, I honestly think he's spot on, an refutes a lot of the anti-Western extremism other theologians taught.  His work needs to be appreciated on that end.  As jckstraw alluded, there needs to be a balance.  Otherwise you will mislead people.
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« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2012, 06:59:50 PM »

i think his critique of Kalomiros' River of Fire is quite good: http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/207/%E2%80%9C-river-fire%E2%80%9D-revisited/
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« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2012, 08:45:31 PM »

Please point me to a pre-modern source defining religion (or comparable Latin/ Greek words) as "a neurobiological illness." The English word "religion" has Latin roots and has a very stable definition over time.
The word "religion" was already used by Cicero to decribe polytheist temple cult. Has any Father, even Latin Father, used the word "religion" to describe Holy Orthodoxy? I am seriously not aware of any such example. If you have one, please quote.

i think his critique of Kalomiros' River of Fire is quite good: http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/207/%E2%80%9C-river-fire%E2%80%9D-revisited/
It is not good. Once again, he makes an accusation of heresy
Quote
Like all heretics, Kalomiros mixes truth with falsehood.
(quote from your link)
I really find it hard to take Mr. Moss seriously, when he makes lots of accusations of heresy against famous Orthodox theologians and priests of our time. And Moss himself is a member of a non-canonical group.

Also, I do not think it is wrong to state that St. Paul's use of the term dikaiosyne is influenced by the Hebrew. You just need to see how the Church Fathers explained St. Paul, then compare it to Jewish as well as non-Christian Greek uses of the term. In fact, one of the most central parts of St. Paul's definition goes back to the OT (Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness).
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« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2012, 08:55:23 PM »

Please point me to a pre-modern source defining religion (or comparable Latin/ Greek words) as "a neurobiological illness." The English word "religion" has Latin roots and has a very stable definition over time.
The word "religion" was already used by Cicero to decribe polytheist temple cult. Has any Father, even Latin Father, used the word "religion" to describe Holy Orthodoxy? I am seriously not aware of any such example. If you have one, please quote.

All the time. For example, Saint Augustine's work De Vera Religione. Actually, going further back, "religio" is the word used to translate St. James' "θρησκεια" into Latin.

But the Latin word is really beside the point. We're talking about Fr. John Romanides, who wrote originally in Greek. He is not talking about the English word "religion," but the Greek word θρησκεια, the same word Saint James uses to describe Christian religion in James 1:27. Like the Latin word, θρησκεια could have pagan connotations too, but that did not preclude its use as a description of Christian piety.
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2012, 09:09:52 PM »


He's some kind of minor clergy, but would probably get a good laugh to find out people were referring to him with some kind of liturgical title.

I don't think the cassock, huge beard, and the presentation in front of the iconostasis dissuades people from thinking that.
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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2012, 09:18:18 PM »

... i think there is a move to downplay or completely do away with the concept of God's justice and judgment --- its all just His love and light! i think Vladimir Moss is at least correctly motivated in calling attention to teachings on God's justice and judgment.

I'm inclined to agree, although I've not read Moss' work.

I've noticed this view, which seems to neglect or deemphasize judgment, quite a lot.  Yet I don't seem to come across it much in scripture or many works of the Fathers, monastics, etc.  I've even seen people on here and in person claim God's inability to judge, be wrathful because of being love, to be an Orthodox position.
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« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2012, 09:57:33 PM »

All the time. For example, Saint Augustine's work De Vera Religione.
Bl. Augustine, whether one considers him personally holy or not, is outside the patristic consent. And I am fed up with attempts to replace the theology of the Cappadocian fathers by Western Augustinianism.

Actually, going further back, "religio" is the word used to translate St. James' "θρησκεια" into Latin.
Now that is something to consider more seriously, even though St. Jerome's Latin translation is not without flaws either.

But let's have a look at James 1:26-27
"26 If anyone thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world"
This is not explicitly referring to Christianity as "religion" or "θρησκεια". All we see see from this text is that St. James admits the possibility of this word to be used in a positive sense. But this positive sense contains works of love, not what we nowadays commonly define as religion. And notice that the negative sense comes first.


But the Latin word is really beside the point. We're talking about Fr. John Romanides, who wrote originally in Greek.
He has lived in the United States and some of his works were originally written in English.

He is not talking about the English word "religion," but the Greek word θρησκεια
Whatever word was used first (btw, you are right, θρησκεια is used in the Greeks version of the text), I guess it all comes down to the definition. But even if we use the definition of St. James, Orthodoxy is not a religion. Orthodoxy is not "to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world". No, Orthodoxy is the way to Theosis. The things St. James mentions are just by-products. Because if we have true Christian love, we will visit the suffering. And if we are truly filled by divine grace, we will not be spotted by the world.
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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2012, 10:11:33 PM »

All the time. For example, Saint Augustine's work De Vera Religione.
Bl. Augustine, whether one considers him personally holy or not, is outside the patristic consent.

The Church has declared otherwise. "We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith." - 5th Ecumenical Council

Quote
And I am fed up with attempts to replace the theology of the Cappadocian fathers by Western Augustinianism.

I'm fed up with gimmicky, simplistic West/ East dichotomies which are thoroughly un-Patristic, unhelpful, and un-Catholic.

Quote
Whatever word was used first (btw, you are right, θρησκεια is used in the Greeks version of the text), I guess it all comes down to the definition. But even if we use the definition of St. James, Orthodoxy is not a religion. Orthodoxy is not "to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world".

You are reading Saint James very literally and reductively. Obviously Saint James gave these as examples to make a wider point.

Do you think visiting orphans and widows, and keeping oneself unspotted from the world, constitute a "neurobiological illness"?

Yes, Orthodox Christianity is a religion. If someone wants to say it's more than a religion too, that's fine. But contrasting Orthodoxy vs. religion as Romanides does, and then completely redefining the term "religion" to suit his argument, is not to be taken seriously.

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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2012, 10:20:42 PM »

The Church has declared otherwise. "We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith." - 5th Ecumenical Council
They included Bl. Augustine out of respect for the Latins, not because they had actually read him.

I'm fed up with gimmicky, simplistic West/ East dichotomies which are thoroughly un-Patristic, unhelpful, and un-Catholic.
And I am fed up with Western heresies, even if the man who caused them had personal holiness. Btw, wasnt Bl.A. un-catholic by not having read most theological writings, instead inventing his own theological solutions?

You are reading Saint James very literally and reductively. Obviously Saint James gave these as examples to make a wider point.
No, that's NOT obvious. I would argue he understood "religion" in a similar way as Cicero, in the sense of necessary rites to pay respect to a deity. And his point is that such rites, for the true God consist not of some elaborate sacrifice, but precisely of visiting widows etc.
And this has nothing to do, neither with the most current contemporary definition of religion, nor with the definition of Fr. John Romanides.


But contrasting Orthodoxy vs. religion as Romanides does, and then completely redefining the term "religion" to suit his argument, is not to be taken seriously.
Now what exactly is so evil about defining "religion" in such a way as Fr. John did?
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« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2012, 10:35:16 PM »

The Church has declared otherwise. "We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith." - 5th Ecumenical Council
They included Bl. Augustine out of respect for the Latins, not because they had actually read him.

So an Ecumenical Council was wrong?

Respect for Latins. Never in 21st century Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2012, 10:36:16 PM »

Leave no nit unpicked.
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« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2012, 10:36:53 PM »

The Church has declared otherwise. "We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith." - 5th Ecumenical Council
They included Bl. Augustine out of respect for the Latins, not because they had actually read him.

So an Ecumenical Council was wrong?

No, no. It just wasn't right in the way people thought.
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« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2012, 10:37:54 PM »

Leave no nit unpicked.

Thanks. I've never had a specific motto but this sounds rather nice. I think I steal that.

The Church has declared otherwise. "We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith." - 5th Ecumenical Council
They included Bl. Augustine out of respect for the Latins, not because they had actually read him.

So an Ecumenical Council was wrong?

No, no. It just wasn't right in the way people thought.

Right. So when it said that Augustine is a Holy Father that should be followed it didn't mean that Augustine is a Holy Father that should be followed. Makes sense.
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« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2012, 10:46:13 PM »

All the time. For example, Saint Augustine's work De Vera Religione.
Bl. Augustine, whether one considers him personally holy or not, is outside the patristic consent. And I am fed up with attempts to replace the theology of the Cappadocian fathers by Western Augustinianism.

Actually, going further back, "religio" is the word used to translate St. James' "θρησκεια" into Latin.
Now that is something to consider more seriously, even though St. Jerome's Latin translation is not without flaws either.

But let's have a look at James 1:26-27
"26 If anyone thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world"
This is not explicitly referring to Christianity as "religion" or "θρησκεια". All we see see from this text is that St. James admits the possibility of this word to be used in a positive sense. But this positive sense contains works of love, not what we nowadays commonly define as religion. And notice that the negative sense comes first.


But the Latin word is really beside the point. We're talking about Fr. John Romanides, who wrote originally in Greek.
He has lived in the United States and some of his works were originally written in English.

He is not talking about the English word "religion," but the Greek word θρησκεια
Whatever word was used first (btw, you are right, θρησκεια is used in the Greeks version of the text), I guess it all comes down to the definition. But even if we use the definition of St. James, Orthodoxy is not a religion. Orthodoxy is not "to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world". No, Orthodoxy is the way to Theosis. The things St. James mentions are just by-products. Because if we have true Christian love, we will visit the suffering. And if we are truly filled by divine grace, we will not be spotted by the world.

Excellent response, Gorazd.
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« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2012, 10:53:34 PM »

i agree with Iconodule. are there any examples of any Fathers speaking of religion as a neurobiological sickness? Fr. John asserts that the Ecumenical Councils operated under this understanding -- where does he get this from?!
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« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2012, 10:58:47 PM »

i agree with Iconodule. are there any examples of any Fathers speaking of religion as a neurobiological sickness? Fr. John asserts that the Ecumenical Councils operated under this understanding -- where does he get this from?!

Fr. Alexander Schmemmann, IIRC, also follows the religion vs. Christianity argument, predating Fr. John Romanides.
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« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2012, 11:00:43 PM »

i dont recall anything about religion being a neurobiological sickness from him though. as far as i can tell he pulled it out of nowhere
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« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2012, 11:01:59 PM »

i dont recall anything about religion being a neurobiological sickness from him though. as far as i can tell he pulled it out of nowhere

Perhaps it is a theme of Greek theological scholarship and hasn't been translated into English in any other source.

Even many patristic texts are not yet translated into English.
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« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2012, 11:12:01 PM »

Fr. John pushes this theme as the key to Orthodox spirituality. If that were the case, such a concept should be readily available and easy to locate in the fathers.
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« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2012, 11:19:33 PM »

Fr. John pushes this theme as the key to Orthodox spirituality. If that were the case, such a concept should be readily available and easy to locate in the fathers.

Not necessarily. He could be offering a grand synthesis.

What, according to the patristic consensus, is the key to Orthodox spirituality, in your understanding?
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« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2012, 11:35:00 PM »

Fr. John pushes this theme as the key to Orthodox spirituality. If that were the case, such a concept should be readily available and easy to locate in the fathers.

Not necessarily. He could be offering a grand synthesis.

Correcting the flow of blood and spinal fluid is a grand synthesis of Orthodox spirituality?  Huh
A synthesis should be made up of already familiar elements.

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What, according to the patristic consensus, is the key to Orthodox spirituality, in your understanding?

Illumination of the intellect, acquisition of the Holy Spirit, union with God.
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« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2012, 11:39:59 PM »

So an Ecumenical Council was wrong?
If you say "The Ecumenical Councils are infallible", that's westernised theology. It's basically just replacing the word "Pope" with something else in the sentence "The Pope is infallible".

The Ecumenical Council are central to Orthodoxy, of course. But still there are some points that still require discussion. Let's say you follow St. Gregory of Nyssa in every possible way, does that mean his version of apokatastasis is dogma? Of course not, it was clearly rejected by great saints such as St. Photius the Great and St. Mark of Ephesus. At best, the position of St. Gregory is a minority theologoumenon.

Similar examples could be made for others mentioned in that sentence of the 5th Ecumenical Council.
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« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2012, 11:42:14 PM »

Fr. John pushes this theme as the key to Orthodox spirituality. If that were the case, such a concept should be readily available and easy to locate in the fathers.

Not necessarily. He could be offering a grand synthesis.

Correcting the flow of blood and spinal fluid is a grand synthesis of Orthodox spirituality?  Huh
A synthesis should be made up of already familiar elements.

Quote
What, according to the patristic consensus, is the key to Orthodox spirituality, in your understanding?

Illumination of the intellect, acquisition of the Holy Spirit, union with God.

Maybe not synthesis. Wild reductionism? Bizarre sloganeering? Bumperstickering? I think "Religion is a neurobiological sickness" would make an awesome bumpersticker, but it's likely to get honks from atheists and weird looks from Orthodox unless they're among the few who have actually read and agreed with Fr. Romanides, which narrows the field down to mainly just Greeks and those who wish they were Greek.
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« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2012, 11:54:00 PM »

As far as Fr. John Romanides, I have read some articles translated in Romanian and I believe they were some of the best modern theology I've ever heard. I've seen him criticized by old calendarists (not Vladimir Moss particularly). They seem to think that he is too modern, too lax, but it's really their eyes that are sick and project that reality upon Father John. And, being modern is known to scare old calendarists to an extreme.

As far as "Orthodoxy not being a religion" theme in Fr. John's work, we really need to look at it for what it is. I don't think Fr. John was trying to fool people by switching definitions around. You can look at it as a literary method. The message is very powerful and refreshing.
We really need to try to see the good in things, or else we will never be satisfied or agree to anything.
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« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2012, 11:54:10 PM »

So an Ecumenical Council was wrong?
If you say "The Ecumenical Councils are infallible", that's westernised theology. It's basically just replacing the word "Pope" with something else in the sentence "The Pope is infallible".

I wouldn't say the Councils are infallible, but they certainly carry a fair amount of weight against, say, the odd internet theologian.

Who are you again?

Oh right, you're the guy who tried to argue that Saint Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain is a Westernizer.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2012, 11:55:57 PM »

i would definitely say the Ecumenical Councils are infallible -- jus' sayin'
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« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2012, 12:01:40 AM »

I would say that their teachings are true and Orthodox. I'm not sure what it means to say that they're "infallible."
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« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2012, 12:12:37 AM »

as far as im concerned "true and Orthodox" is synonymous with "infallible." the truth does not contain fallacy - its infallible (otherwise it wouldn't be the truth!)
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« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2012, 12:14:36 AM »

Well, I think some things happened at the Councils occasionally which were problematic. For example, some of the bishops at Chalcedon read the letter of Ibas and said it was orthodox.

However, this does not impinge on the truth of the Council's definition or the binding nature of its canons.
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« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2012, 12:37:32 AM »

I wouldn't say the Councils are infallible, but they certainly carry a fair amount of weight against, say, the odd internet theologian.
Do you even read exactly what I write? I was not arguing against the council, but against understanding the council as a pope. And by giving the example of St. Gregory, who is mentioned in the same sentence, and giving two examples of his reception in the Church, I made it clear that we cannot legitimately derive from the sentence you quoted, that St. Gregory, Bl. Augustine or any of the names mentioned, produced theological writings without error.

Don't read the Council as Pastor Rick Warren reads the Bible, please.


Who are you again?

Oh right, you're the guy who tried to argue that Saint Nikodemus of the Holy Mountain is a Westernizer.  Roll Eyes
Are you denying that "Unseen Warfare" originally is a Roman Catholic work? I pointed out, while not denying the person holiness of Saint Nikodemos, that such an approach is highly problematic and I still feel uncomfortable with that work.

Btw, why doesnt whoever likes Bl. Augustine and Fr. Lorenzo Scupoli just join the Roman Catholic Church? But let Orthodoxy be Orthodox please, instead of brining in other theology.
In this discussion, I also see that several persons here do call the councils "infallible", just as they called the Pope or the Biblical text infallible before becoming Orthodox. We must really be careful that the influx of Western converts does not lead to an influx of Western theology and mentality also. We already had a Western captivity and I thought we were over that.
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« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2012, 07:39:15 AM »

the Church is the Body of Christ with Christ as its head -- of course the Church is infallible. The Body of Christ preaches/teaches no error. Its not Catholic or Protestant to believe in unwavering truth -- the question is simply where you locate the authority.
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« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2012, 08:17:42 AM »

as far as im concerned "true and Orthodox" is synonymous with "infallible." the truth does not contain fallacy - its infallible (otherwise it wouldn't be the truth!)

On a similar note, old calendarists who call themselves "true orthodox" are doing something very silly. It's like saying in court that everybody must believe you because you are an honest person. Smiley  Being as over-zealous as they are, still they don't realize that you simply don't add words to the title of the Orthodox Church. Wouldn't that be heresy? Changing an iota? Other than mentioning the location of the church together with the title "Orthodox Christian Church of...", wouldn't it be wrong to add or change words?
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« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2012, 08:20:02 AM »

as far as im concerned "true and Orthodox" is synonymous with "infallible." the truth does not contain fallacy - its infallible (otherwise it wouldn't be the truth!)

On a similar note, old calendarists who call themselves "true orthodox" are doing something very silly. It's like saying in court that everybody must believe you because you are an honest person. Smiley  Being as over-zealous as they are, still they don't realize that you simply don't add words to the title of the Orthodox Church. Wouldn't that be heresy? Changing an iota? Other than mentioning the location of the church together with the title "Orthodox Christian Church of...", wouldn't it be wrong to add or change words?

No.
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« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2012, 08:44:05 AM »

as far as im concerned "true and Orthodox" is synonymous with "infallible." the truth does not contain fallacy - its infallible (otherwise it wouldn't be the truth!)

On a similar note, old calendarists who call themselves "true orthodox" are doing something very silly. It's like saying in court that everybody must believe you because you are an honest person. Smiley  Being as over-zealous as they are, still they don't realize that you simply don't add words to the title of the Orthodox Church. Wouldn't that be heresy? Changing an iota? Other than mentioning the location of the church together with the title "Orthodox Christian Church of...", wouldn't it be wrong to add or change words?

No.

You do realize that's not actually an answer...   Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2012, 09:18:29 AM »

the Church is the Body of Christ with Christ as its head -- of course the Church is infallible. The Body of Christ preaches/teaches no error. Its not Catholic or Protestant to believe in unwavering truth -- the question is simply where you locate the authority.

The word "authority" is already Latin. The Greek exousia has different connotations, maybe best translated as "power".

And in fact, in the Orthodox Church, everything happens through the Holy Spirit and the divine, uncreated Grace. That's where it is, not in the letters of some text. Even though the councils are extremely important, they do not stand alone, but through their reception in the Church. Some have been completely rejected (robber councils), others have been received, but there are still nuances. As I said, not everything these saints listed have said, is the belief of the Church. St. Gregory's apokatastasis is not, and Bl. Augustine's original sin is not either.

In fact, as I want to point out again, Bl. Augustine was included in the list to please the Latins, as his works simply weren't available in Greek. That's just how it was, there is no point is saying "It's not like that because it cannot have been like that." It was. Insofar, St. Gregory was included, although the fathers of Council knew about his theology. Bl. Augustine was included, but only the minority of wetern delegates knew what he actually taught.
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« Reply #80 on: September 22, 2012, 11:04:33 AM »

I don't think there's much wrong woth Augustinianism.  It's how Protestants interpret St. Augustine that's the problem.  I think St. Augustine in his cultural context is highly misunderstood.  If we can have a separate discussion about St. Augustine and where people make comments against his doctrine of Original Sin, I can show an alternate interpretation based on St. Augustine himself.

I would think "Western Captivity" would be a lack of a tradition of theosis or even anti-theosis, or the use of juridical language to such an extreme in exclusion of other more ontological understandings of salvation.  But in combatting Western Captivity, I wouldn't exclude Western or Latin tradition of soteriology, as I believe it is complimentary to the East.  In fact, in my opinion, a lot of Western juridical terminology might even be Alexandrian in origin to begin with, i.e. "Eastern".
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« Reply #81 on: September 22, 2012, 11:11:12 AM »

I wouldn't say the Councils are infallible, but they certainly carry a fair amount of weight against, say, the odd internet theologian.
Do you even read exactly what I write? I was not arguing against the council, but against understanding the council as a pope. And by giving the example of St. Gregory, who is mentioned in the same sentence, and giving two examples of his reception in the Church, I made it clear that we cannot legitimately derive from the sentence you quoted, that St. Gregory, Bl. Augustine or any of the names mentioned, produced theological writings without error.

Your silly assertion was that Saint Augustine is not part of the patristic consensus, not merely that he made some mistakes. The Council simply disproves that and you are dodging that fact.

Also, why do you persist in the Roman Catholic practice of referring to someone as "blessed" as if that's "less than a saint"? Get thee hence, reprobate Westernizer!

Quote
Are you denying that "Unseen Warfare" originally is a Roman Catholic work?

No, I'm simply asserting that "Unseen Warfare", as published by Sts. Nicodemus and Theophan, is a legitimate Orthodox work.

Quote
I pointed out, while not denying the person holiness of Saint Nikodemos, that such an approach is highly problematic and I still feel uncomfortable with that work.

Saint Basil and other fathers believed we could benefit from pagan writings. Your antipathy toward "the West" is rooted in a modern East/West dichotomy which has nothing to do with traditional Orthodoxy or the fathers.

I also remember you standing in judgment of St. Nikodemos for including the writings of Evagrius in the Philokalia. Obviously you do believe in an infallible authority- but it's not councils, not the fathers, but yourself.

Quote
Btw, why doesnt whoever likes Bl. Augustine and Fr. Lorenzo Scupoli just join the Roman Catholic Church? But let Orthodoxy be Orthodox please, instead of brining in other theology.

So you think Saints Nikodemos and Theophan should have really just joined the Roman Catholics. And I guess Saint Basil should have become a pagan, since he liked pagan literature.

Quote
In this discussion, I also see that several persons here do call the councils "infallible", just as they called the Pope or the Biblical text infallible before becoming Orthodox. We must really be careful that the influx of Western converts does not lead to an influx of Western theology and mentality also. We already had a Western captivity and I thought we were over that.

What we need to really be careful of is of self-appointed theologians reading about a simplistic east/west dichotomy in modern Orthodox literature and twisting Church teaching and history to suit this model.
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« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2012, 11:37:16 AM »

Your silly assertion was that Saint Augustine is not part of the patristic consensus, not merely that he made some mistakes. The Council simply disproves that and you are dodging that fact.
It is not silly, and the council does not disprove what I said. I am really having the impression that you do not understand my words. To be outside the patristic consensus means to hold theological opinions that are different from what the immense majority of the Fathers agreed on. For example on Original Sin. Or do you seriously claim that most Fathers held the Augustinian view?


Also, why do you persist in the Roman Catholic practice of referring to someone as "blessed" as if that's "less than a saint"? Get thee hence, reprobate Westernizer!
Whether he is a saint (in the sense of a model of the faithful and suitable intercessor) is under discussion. I am using the title the Council (don't you like councils?) used in order to refer to him.

No, I'm simply asserting that "Unseen Warfare", as published by Sts. Nicodemus and Theophan, is a legitimate Orthodox work.
Imagine your parish bought a Western church building and redecorated it Orthodox. It's an Orthodox church then, but it's still not the same as one built Orthodox to begin with, and it still does have some heterodox feel there. That's what I said about the book. And precisely in such spiritual matters, I do not feel comfortable with that.

Saint Basil and other fathers believed we could benefit from pagan writings. Your antipathy toward "the West" is rooted in a modern East/West dichotomy which has nothing to do with traditional Orthodoxy or the fathers.
I do not hate the West (actually, I live in the West, where part of my family came as refugees). I just do not think we should use wrong theology in the Orthodox Church.

Just as St. Basil could profit from Pagan science or philosophy, we can profit nowadays from scientific research done by non-Orthodox scientists. But in spiritual matters, we have to be careful.

I also remember you standing in judgment of St. Nikodemos for including the writings of Evagrius in the Philokalia. Obviously you do believe in an infallible authority- but it's not councils, not the fathers, but yourself.
I just said that Evagrios was condemned by the Church (not by myself), so it is problematic to present his writings as a model for the faithful. Do you think saints such as St. Nikodemos never did anything controversial or worthy of further discussion?

What we need to really be careful of is of self-appointed theologians reading about a simplistic east/west dichotomy in modern Orthodox literature and twisting Church teaching and history to suit this model.
What do you know about me, to call me self-appointed?
Anyway, I just want the Orthodox faith to be pure. I love the Greek Fathers, and the Desert Fathers of Egypt. That is Orthodoxy. Are they not good enough for you?

Why do you want to bring in Bl. Augustine or whatever? Do you know that the church in his homeland, present-day Algeria, became extinct under Islam? Is that the Church, against Hades would not prevail?
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« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2012, 08:37:21 PM »

Your silly assertion was that Saint Augustine is not part of the patristic consensus, not merely that he made some mistakes. The Council simply disproves that and you are dodging that fact.
It is not silly, and the council does not disprove what I said. I am really having the impression that you do not understand my words. To be outside the patristic consensus means to hold theological opinions that are different from what the immense majority of the Fathers agreed on. For example on Original Sin. Or do you seriously claim that most Fathers held the Augustinian view?

You asked if any Latin Fathers used "religion" to describe the Christian faith, and I pointed to Saint Augustine's De Vera Religione. Your response: Augustine is outside the patristic consensus, implying that therefore he doesn't count as a Latin Father and his example is invalid.

But if you can admit that Saint Augustine is a Father of the church we can move on.

Quote
Also, why do you persist in the Roman Catholic practice of referring to someone as "blessed" as if that's "less than a saint"? Get thee hence, reprobate Westernizer!
Whether he is a saint (in the sense of a model of the faithful and suitable intercessor) is under discussion. I am using the title the Council (don't you like councils?) used in order to refer to him.

So you agree that he is a saint, since "blessed" and "saint" are synonymous in the Orthodox Church. Glad we could clear that up.  

Quote
No, I'm simply asserting that "Unseen Warfare", as published by Sts. Nicodemus and Theophan, is a legitimate Orthodox work.
Imagine your parish bought a Western church building and redecorated it Orthodox. It's an Orthodox church then, but it's still not the same as one built Orthodox to begin with, and it still does have some heterodox feel there. That's what I said about the book. And precisely in such spiritual matters, I do not feel comfortable with that.

My parish church building used to belong to a baptist church. There is no heterodox feel there. Our church is 100% Orthodox and there is no need to demolish the building and put a new building up. What you feel "comfortable" with has nothing to do with what is right.
[quote[
Saint Basil and other fathers believed we could benefit from pagan writings. Your antipathy toward "the West" is rooted in a modern East/West dichotomy which has nothing to do with traditional Orthodoxy or the fathers.
I do not hate the West (actually, I live in the West, where part of my family came as refugees). I just do not think we should use wrong theology in the Orthodox Church.[/quote]

And you have yet to identify a single element of "wrong theology" in the Orthodox editions of Unseen Warfare.

Quote
Just as St. Basil could profit from Pagan science or philosophy, we can profit nowadays from scientific research done by non-Orthodox scientists. But in spiritual matters, we have to be careful.

Philosophy is also spiritual. Orthodox spirituality is replete with terminology and concepts borrowed from pagan philosophers, albeit endued with a new meaning. I have no problem with that. I don't feel that Saint Athanasius' On the Incarnation has a "pagan feel" because it borrows some concepts from Plato.

Quote
I just said that Evagrios was condemned by the Church (not by myself), so it is problematic to present his writings as a model for the faithful.
Do you think saints such as St. Nikodemos never did anything controversial or worthy of further discussion?

In collecting some of Evagrios' spiritual texts, Saint Nikodemos was doing nothing which had not already been done by the Desert Fathers you claim to admire, who were deeply influenced by Evagrios (and Origen). So if you have a problem with the inclusion of Evagrios in the Philokalia, take it up with the Desert Fathers, not St. Nikodemos.

Quote
Anyway, I just want the Orthodox faith to be pure.

Then stop polluting it with cartoonish east-west dichotomies which come not from the Greek Fathers but from modern pop-theologians who want Orthodoxy to be something exotic or "ontologically" different from the West.

What you are pushing is a bizarre variant of Orientalism.

Quote
I love the Greek Fathers, and the Desert Fathers of Egypt. That is Orthodoxy.

That is not all of Orthodoxy. The Latin Fathers are also Orthodox. Your vision of the Church is contrary to its Catholic character.

Quote
Why do you want to bring in Bl. Augustine or whatever?

I'm not bringing anything in. Saint Augustine was recognized as a great Father of the Church long before I was born. Saint Augustine is "in", whether you are comfortable with that or not.

Quote
Do you know that the church in his homeland, present-day Algeria, became extinct under Islam? Is that the Church, against Hades would not prevail?

You are implying that Saint Augustine was therefore not part of the real Church. I guess the real Church only existed in the East for you, even when it was in full communion with the West. You are piling innovation upon innovation, in the name of sham "purity".

The Eastern Church has also lost quite a bit of territory to Islam, in case you didn't notice.
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« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2012, 09:05:58 PM »

Iconodule,

Even when "the West" was in full communion with the Church, problematic developments began. Christ said, the branches that do not bring fruit will be cut off and burnt. That is what happened with North Africa, which brought us the poisoned fruit of "original sin" and a beginning of the legalistic view of salvation. This is what happened with the Church of Rome. They are cut off from the Tree of Life. Why do you hang on to their theology, when we know already where it lead?

Orthodoxy in the West is not Augustinianism or legalism, it is people like Archimandrite Sophrony, Fr. Vladimir Lossky, Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Léonid Ouspensky, and yes, Fr. John Romanides, who lived part of his life in the US. They all lived in the West and maintained a Patristic view of Orthodoxy. They let the pure light shine, while the East was sanctified by the blood of the new martyrs of the Bolshevik yoke (in case you aren't aware, Marxism is Protestantism minus God) and the church of Rome destroyed its altars after Vatican II.
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« Reply #85 on: September 22, 2012, 10:39:44 PM »

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Marxism is Protestantism minus God
What does that even mean? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2012, 11:13:25 PM »

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
First of all, we usually say "Blessed Augustine" in the Orthodox Church. Secondly, even the greatest supporters of Bl. Augustine in the Orthodox Church, such as Fr. Seraphim Rose, do not endorse him because of his theology, but because of his holy life.

I think it is pretty much consent in the Church that Bl. Augustine's theology contains flaws and it is not exactly a model for imitation, especially not if isolated from the Greek Fathers.

His "religion is a neurobiological illness" schtick is very shaky to say the least
The whole quote is "Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." So, by saying that, Fr. John Romanides made it quite clear that he did not call Orthodoxy "a neurobiological illness", on the contrary.

Oh please, not this again.  St. Augustine the Blessed.
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« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2012, 11:43:07 PM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8


This is heretical teaching, a denial of the doctrine of Christ's Sacrifice for sin on the Cross, which is ORTHODOX teaching. It comes from the heretical teacher Fr. John Romanides, an ecumenist and newcalendarist.

Vladimir Moss   One week before



Is this true??

It is true that you should not take Mr. Moss's claim of heresy at face value. If he claims that Mr. Robinson's teaching is heretical, he should at least give a thorough explanation why. Unfortunately, Mr. Moss throws claims of heresy around like it is a hobby, but has he provided a more thorough explanation for his views anywhere?


He has written a book called "The New Soteriology" which you can consult if you're interested. It's available for free from his website.
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« Reply #88 on: September 22, 2012, 11:44:43 PM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.
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« Reply #89 on: September 22, 2012, 11:46:37 PM »

And just to be clear, Dr Moss's writings are not necessarily representative of True Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #90 on: September 22, 2012, 11:47:46 PM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

Which version? There are several.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #91 on: September 22, 2012, 11:49:03 PM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

Which version? There are several.  Roll Eyes

Not with that title there aren't. To be clear, he's with the synod headed by Archbishop Tikhon of Omsk.
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« Reply #92 on: September 22, 2012, 11:55:25 PM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

Which version? There are several.  Roll Eyes

Not with that title there aren't. To be clear, he's with the synod headed by Archbishop Tikhon of Omsk.

Yup, just another splinter group not in communion with anybody else.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #93 on: September 22, 2012, 11:57:09 PM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

When did he go to the RTOC?
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« Reply #94 on: September 22, 2012, 11:58:36 PM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

When did he go to the RTOC?

Does it matter? His writings well reflect the schismatic, one-man-band mentality. Irrelevant at best, dangerous at worst.
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« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2012, 12:09:05 AM »

I don't think there's much wrong woth Augustinianism.  It's how Protestants interpret St. Augustine that's the problem.  I think St. Augustine in his cultural context is highly misunderstood.  If we can have a separate discussion about St. Augustine and where people make comments against his doctrine of Original Sin, I can show an alternate interpretation based on St. Augustine himself.

I would think "Western Captivity" would be a lack of a tradition of theosis or even anti-theosis, or the use of juridical language to such an extreme in exclusion of other more ontological understandings of salvation.  But in combatting Western Captivity, I wouldn't exclude Western or Latin tradition of soteriology, as I believe it is complimentary to the East.  In fact, in my opinion, a lot of Western juridical terminology might even be Alexandrian in origin to begin with, i.e. "Eastern".

Amen.

Verily the loathers of Blessed Augustine shall be made speechless as fish.
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« Reply #96 on: September 23, 2012, 12:12:20 AM »

Do you know that the church in his homeland, present-day Algeria, became extinct under Islam? Is that the Church, against Hades would not prevail?

What moronic babble is this?

Several parts of Greece had to be re-evangelized, having been overrun by barbarians and Mohammedeans, even before the year 1000. The Church of Africa is bathed in the blood of martyrs, from the beginning to the end. They will witness against you.
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« Reply #97 on: September 23, 2012, 01:58:51 AM »

Marxism is Protestantism minus God

I'd like to hear more about this. Last I checked Protestantism was about justification by Faith only, Sola Scriptura, an emphasis on invisible church and priesthood of all believers and all that. What those have to do with Marxism?
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« Reply #98 on: September 23, 2012, 02:28:51 AM »

Marxism is Protestantism minus God

I'd like to hear more about this. Last I checked Protestantism was about justification by Faith only, Sola Scriptura, an emphasis on invisible church and priesthood of all believers and all that. What those have to do with Marxism?

It's a flashy rhetorical gesture that's supposed to impress everyone into marveling how everything evil comes from the West. You're not supposed to actually think about it or question it.
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« Reply #99 on: September 23, 2012, 09:17:06 AM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

When did he go to the RTOC?

Last year I think
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« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2012, 09:21:46 AM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

Which version? There are several.  Roll Eyes

Not with that title there aren't. To be clear, he's with the synod headed by Archbishop Tikhon of Omsk.

Yup, just another splinter group not in communion with anybody else.  Roll Eyes

Right. Because it's so important to be in communion with everyone regardless of doctrinal confession or canonical regularity.
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« Reply #101 on: September 23, 2012, 10:27:07 AM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

When did he go to the RTOC?

Does it matter? His writings well reflect the schismatic, one-man-band mentality. Irrelevant at best, dangerous at worst.

Unfortunately they get used sometimes as has shown up here with things like his egregious mis-understanding/misuse of the "death-bed vision" of St. Edward the Confessor for example.   I would not trust any of his history without checking other reliable sources just for starters.

He has been through several jurisdictions over the years.  As stated in an interview that is still on-line he started in ROCOR, then went to ROAC (Metropolitan Valentine). But he left there some time back for at least one other possibly before the RTOC.

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« Reply #102 on: September 23, 2012, 02:39:21 PM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

He's with the Russian True Orthodox Church now.

When did he go to the RTOC?

Does it matter? His writings well reflect the schismatic, one-man-band mentality. Irrelevant at best, dangerous at worst.
I don't think you should underestimate Moss' writings.  With some reason, one can give Moss the same respect the Church gave Tertullian.  Even though he joined a schismatic group, he still has some valuable writings that are very very relevant and needs to be addressed and respected.
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« Reply #103 on: September 24, 2012, 10:34:52 AM »

And just to be clear, Dr Moss's writings are not necessarily representative of True Orthodoxy.

And hardly anything that calls itself "True Orthodoxy" is in any way representative of the actual Orthodox Church  Wink
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« Reply #104 on: September 24, 2012, 10:59:11 AM »

I don't think you should underestimate Moss' writings.  With some reason, one can give Moss the same respect the Church gave Tertullian.  Even though he joined a schismatic group, he still has some valuable writings that are very very relevant and needs to be addressed and respected.
Whatever one may think about Tertullian (that question deserves a thread of its own), Tertullian was a member of the canonical church for quite a long time and wrote ome important apologetics, Moss was in the MP for just 3 years, then went to the then uncanonical ROCOR, and finally went on to some small groups ... Also, I do not see Moss' merits for the Church. His writings mostly seem to consist of calling others heretics? So I do not see him as a "respectable writer".

I'd like to hear more about this. Last I checked Protestantism was about justification by Faith only, Sola Scriptura, an emphasis on invisible church and priesthood of all believers and all that. What those have to do with Marxism?
Now take out God... Proletarians are good by social status alone, sola scriptura gets replaced by a belief in marxism with private property as original sin and Communism as a future paradise, worthy sacrifice now, to be built by a revolution, and the priesthood of all believers becomes the revolution of the masses, ridding themselves or the bourgeois and noble elites. (Lenin reintroduced a sort of "priesthood" though by ascribing a leading role to "professional revolutionaries").
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« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2012, 11:12:29 AM »

I don't think you should underestimate Moss' writings.  With some reason, one can give Moss the same respect the Church gave Tertullian.  Even though he joined a schismatic group, he still has some valuable writings that are very very relevant and needs to be addressed and respected.
Whatever one may think about Tertullian (that question deserves a thread of its own), Tertullian was a member of the canonical church for quite a long time and wrote ome important apologetics, Moss was in the MP for just 3 years, then went to the then uncanonical ROCOR, and finally went on to some small groups ... Also, I do not see Moss' merits for the Church. His writings mostly seem to consist of calling others heretics? So I do not see him as a "respectable writer".

I'd like to hear more about this. Last I checked Protestantism was about justification by Faith only, Sola Scriptura, an emphasis on invisible church and priesthood of all believers and all that. What those have to do with Marxism?
Now take out God... Proletarians are good by social status alone, sola scriptura gets replaced by a belief in marxism with private property as original sin and Communism as a future paradise, worthy sacrifice now, to be built by a revolution, and the priesthood of all believers becomes the revolution of the masses, ridding themselves or the bourgeois and noble elites. (Lenin reintroduced a sort of "priesthood" though by ascribing a leading role to "professional revolutionaries").

he doesnt just call ppl heretics (sure, perhaps he should be more reserved on using that term) - he attempts to show why he thinks they are heretics and thereby give what he believes is the true Orthodox teaching.
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« Reply #106 on: September 24, 2012, 11:13:03 AM »

Moss was in the MP for just 3 years, then went to the then uncanonical ROCOR, and finally went on to some small groups ... Also, I do not see Moss' merits for the Church. His writings mostly seem to consist of calling others heretics? So I do not see him as a "respectable writer".

I don't know much about Moss except that I don't like his writings and have noted like you his tendency to label all and sundry a heretic, but assuming that you mean he went to the ROCOR that is now reconciled with the MP rather than some other jurisdiction using the same acronym, I think that you're wrong to describe it as uncanonical. It was certainly never out of communion with all the other Orthodox churches - many but not all. I'm not entirely certain, of course, what you mean by uncanconical in this instance but ROCOR's position was never comparable to that of the various True Orthodox groups or HOCNA

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« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2012, 11:30:37 AM »

he doesnt just call ppl heretics (sure, perhaps he should be more reserved on using that term) - he attempts to show why he thinks they are heretics and thereby give what he believes is the true Orthodox teaching.

His articles and books do provide detailed explanations for certain positions of his, and sometimes he is correct theologically.  However, the OP was in reference to remarks about Mr. Robinsons' presentation of salvation as heresy, and so far I do not think anyone has provided a link to Mr. Moss' developed explanation behind this remark, which is why it is hard to comment at length concerning his remark.  If anyone is aware of such a detailed explanation from Mr. Moss regarding Mr. Robinson's brief video, then someone please (re)post it.
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« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2012, 04:59:30 PM »

And just to be clear, Dr Moss's writings are not necessarily representative of True Orthodoxy.

And hardly anything that calls itself "True Orthodoxy" is in any way representative of the actual Orthodox Church  Wink

Sez you
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« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2012, 05:05:38 PM »

Actually, I haven't found anything addressing Robinson in Moss's books, either the one about Fr Romanides or the one about the "new soteriology" (which critiques similar theological trends in both the Russian and Greek churches in the 20th century).
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« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2012, 05:20:36 PM »

assuming that you mean he went to the ROCOR that is now reconciled with the MP rather than some other jurisdiction using the same acronym, I think that you're wrong to describe it as uncanonical. It was certainly never out of communion with all the other Orthodox churches - many but not all.
Well, it is a special case: it was in communion with Serbia and apparently Jerusalem. But it was not one of the canonical churches mentioned in prayer, for example at a patriarchal liturgy or the Sunday of Orthodoxy. The Syriac Orthodox Church, that is the OO Church of Antioch, also is in communion with the EO Church of Antioch. Still, no one would call the Syriac Church a canonical EO Church.


 
I'm not entirely certain, of course, what you mean by uncanconical in this instance but ROCOR's position was never comparable to that of the various True Orthodox groups or HOCNA
I am glad that most of ROCOR made it back into communion with the Church. But there were tendencies, such as refusing to follow the Paris Exarchate and Finland in going under Constantinople, because the New Calendar was considered so heretical, that even if they were allowed to keep the old one for themselves, they wouldn't ever go under a NC, in their understanding, heretical, patriarch. At times ROCOR was in communion with the canonical Serbs, but with uncanonical Greek Od Calendarists... etc. And it is this hardline "anti-modernist" current in ROCOR that Moss comes from. That is why he was one of those in ROCOR who didn't go along with the 2007 reunion.

Strangely enough, he is one of those who condemn the New Calendar, at the same time preferring western captivity theology to the patristic theology of Fr. John Romanides.
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« Reply #111 on: September 24, 2012, 05:42:38 PM »

Who knew this thread would be so great?

Awesome work by Gorazd and Iconodule.

EDIT: Walter this is the best of the all the dozen or so threads you've started since being here.
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« Reply #112 on: September 24, 2012, 06:05:25 PM »

Quote
Strangely enough, he is one of those who condemn the New Calendar, at the same time preferring western captivity theology to the patristic theology of Fr. John Romanides.

Not that I necessarily endorse this view, but Moss argues that in fact it is Fr Romanides' theology that is Western. I won't try to reproduce his arguments here, but I'll just say that the premise of your statement is debatable.
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« Reply #113 on: September 24, 2012, 08:46:29 PM »

Now take out God... Proletarians are good by social status alone,

I would be interested to see if you can find in Marx any statement to the effect of "Proletarians are good." Such a sentiment has no meaning in his historical materialism.

Quote
sola scriptura gets replaced by a belief in marxism

That's not even close to a parallel, try again.

Quote
with private property as original sin and Communism as a future paradise, worthy sacrifice now, to be built by a revolution, and the priesthood of all believers becomes the revolution of the masses,

Original sin, paradise, and priesthood of all believers are general Christian concepts, not Protestant ones.

Actually, for Marx, "original sin" would probably be agriculture. Try again.

Marxism is just Orthodoxy without God. I'll prove it. The Marxists replace Holy Tradition with "class consciousness" and communism as a guiding, latent tendency throughout history, operating mostly unconsciously in various social movements . The Catholic Church is the Internationalist Communist Party, and in the parousia of communism, everyone is in the party, and, as communism is the final stage of history, its kingdom shall have no end. Icons full of bearded men are replaced by socialist realist paintings full of bearded men. I've even had experience with Marxist groups openly talking about "communist mysticism" (read: hesychasm). Tombs of Lenin/ Mao/ Ho= relics of saints. Obviously Marxism is just godless Orthodoxy. Prove me wrong- I DARE YOU.
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« Reply #114 on: September 24, 2012, 08:48:18 PM »

The concept of "Western Captivity" is 95% BS. There, I said it.
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« Reply #115 on: September 24, 2012, 10:43:57 PM »

Iconodule,

Original sin is not an Orthodox concept. Ancestral sin is.

Paradise in the sense of a future life in material wealth is not an Orthodox concept. Beholding the Glory of God is.

The Priesthood of all Believers is an Orthodox concept, but it is complimentary with the ordained threefold ministry. If you take the Priesthood of all Believers without a special priesthood, you get the sin of Korah.

Marx was raised Protestant (United Church of Prussia). His ideas of eliminating the ruling class and masses taking over are unthinkable without the Reformation.

And one more point to show why Marxism could not have sprung from Orthodoxy: In Orthodoxy, there is ascetism and renounciation of the world. In Protestantism, the door is wide open to enjoy the pleasures of this world, since your works don't count anyway. That's how it was in the socialist countries btw, getting good jobs, privileges etc. was by faith alone (i.e. adherence to the official ideology). Whether you did a good job did not matter at all.


PS: I am not surprised. You want to bring us back into Western captivity, so basically you're trying to deny that there is any problem with that at all.
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« Reply #116 on: September 24, 2012, 11:11:49 PM »


Original sin is not an Orthodox concept. Ancestral sin is.

They're the exact same thing. Get your head out of modern pop-theologians and start studying the Fathers. And, if you're going to critique Marx or Luther or Calvin, I recommend actually learning about what their ideas were. This is often best accomplished by actually reading what they and their followers wrote. Just a thought.

Quote
Paradise in the sense of a future life in material wealth is not an Orthodox concept. Beholding the Glory of God is.

Protestants also think of paradise as beholding the glory of God. Next...

Quote
The Priesthood of all Believers is an Orthodox concept, but it is complimentary with the ordained threefold ministry. If you take the Priesthood of all Believers without a special priesthood, you get the sin of Korah.

But not the sin of Protestants, who generally have ordained clergy. Next...

Quote
Marx was raised Protestant (United Church of Prussia).

Lenin and Stalin were raised Orthodox. RUH ROH. Next...

Quote
His ideas of eliminating the ruling class and masses taking over are unthinkable without the Reformation.

They are unthinkable without capitalism. Capitalism, being very adaptable, has arisen in places with have nothing at all to do with the reformation.

Quote
And one more point to show why Marxism could not have sprung from Orthodoxy:

If you're seriously trying to disprove my argument, give it up. It wasn't meant to be serious. However, it is every bit as valid as your argument of Marxism being "godless Protestantism" ie not valid at all.

Quote
In Protestantism, the door is wide open to enjoy the pleasures of this world, since your works don't count anyway.

Proving that you have no conception of Protestantism apart from strawmen. Take a break from the cartoon world for at least a few minutes, please.

Quote
That's how it was in the socialist countries btw, getting good jobs, privileges etc. was by faith alone (i.e. adherence to the official ideology). Whether you did a good job did not matter at all.

Basically you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't the faintest familiarity with the communist movements or the experiences of people in communist states.

Whether the subject is Marxism, Protestantism, Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism... you don't have a clue. Your disparaging of the North African church and your insulting of their martyrs and saints is a good indicator of how far apart your attitude is from Orthodoxy.

Quote
PS: I am not surprised. You want to bring us back into Western captivity, so basically you're trying to deny that there is any problem with that at all.

Yes, I am preparing my tome in defence of Papal supremacy, purgatory, and filioque right now. Stay tuned.
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« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2012, 11:21:30 PM »

The real "Western Captivity" consists of a handful of modern Orthodox who have basically embraced Orientalism to make their own tradition inscrutable and "mysterious". They thereby can avoid the complexities and difficulties of engaging in a nuanced discussion in favor of dazzling generalities about the "Western mindset."
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« Reply #118 on: September 24, 2012, 11:34:06 PM »

It's really not that difficult to understand the differences between true Patristic Orthodox theology and Western capitivity theology:

One teaches that we are all born into a world of sin, the other one teaches that we are sinners because we are born.

One teaches that salvation is healing from sin through cooperation with the uncreated Divine Grace, eventually coming into theosis, that we become by Grace what God is by nature. The other one teaches that salvation is a legal act, reconciling us with a wrathful God.

One teaches that we are to worship in the Spirit and the Truth, and Scriptures, writings of the Fathers, Council texts etc are witnesses of that Truth, which is Jesus Christ. The other one considers the texts themselves to be the Truth.

One is prayer without ceasing, the other one is rationaist brain acrobatics.

One is the faith of the Apostles and Fathers, the other one is Roman Catholicism without pope and filioque, or eastern rite high-church Protestantism (Peter the Great's synod is the best example for that).
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« Reply #119 on: September 24, 2012, 11:36:59 PM »

I don't know how you can judge the quality of another person's prayer. Can you read minds all of a sudden?
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« Reply #120 on: September 24, 2012, 11:37:18 PM »

It's really not that difficult to understand the differences between true Patristic Orthodox theology and Western capitivity theology:

One teaches that we are all born into a world of sin, the other one teaches that we are sinners because we are born.

One teaches that salvation is healing from sin through cooperation with the uncreated Divine Grace, eventually coming into theosis, that we become by Grace what God is by nature. The other one teaches that salvation is a legal act, reconciling us with a wrathful God.

One teaches that we are to worship in the Spirit and the Truth, and Scriptures, writings of the Fathers, Council texts etc are witnesses of that Truth, which is Jesus Christ. The other one considers the texts themselves to be the Truth.

One is prayer without ceasing, the other one is rationaist brain acrobatics.

One is the faith of the Apostles and Fathers, the other one is Roman Catholicism without pope and filioque, or eastern rite high-church Protestantism (Peter the Great's synod is the best example for that).

Thank you for illustrating my point so well.
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« Reply #121 on: September 24, 2012, 11:52:33 PM »

The real "Western Captivity" consists of a handful of modern Orthodox who have basically embraced Orientalism to make their own tradition inscrutable and "mysterious". They thereby can avoid the complexities and difficulties of engaging in a nuanced discussion in favor of dazzling generalities about the "Western mindset."

God bless you! im glad im not the only one who sees this.
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« Reply #122 on: September 25, 2012, 12:44:23 AM »

V Moss has also written plenty about the evils of Papism. His theology may be Westernizing, but he's not exactly an open sympathizer with the West.
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« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2012, 12:48:51 AM »

Thank you for illustrating my point so well.

And that point is? That we should "scrutinise" our own tradition? I have a better idea: Let us pray.


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« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2012, 02:01:29 AM »

It's really not that difficult to understand the differences between true Patristic Orthodox theology and Western capitivity theology:

One teaches that we are all born into a world of sin, the other one teaches that we are sinners because we are born.

One teaches that salvation is healing from sin through cooperation with the uncreated Divine Grace, eventually coming into theosis, that we become by Grace what God is by nature. The other one teaches that salvation is a legal act, reconciling us with a wrathful God.

One teaches that we are to worship in the Spirit and the Truth, and Scriptures, writings of the Fathers, Council texts etc are witnesses of that Truth, which is Jesus Christ. The other one considers the texts themselves to be the Truth.

One is prayer without ceasing, the other one is rationaist brain acrobatics.

One is the faith of the Apostles and Fathers, the other one is Roman Catholicism without pope and filioque, or eastern rite high-church Protestantism (Peter the Great's synod is the best example for that).

I believe in all of these and fail to see the dichotomy.
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« Reply #125 on: September 25, 2012, 02:06:10 AM »

It's really not that difficult to understand the differences between true Patristic Orthodox theology and Western capitivity theology:

One teaches that we are all born into a world of sin, the other one teaches that we are sinners because we are born.

One teaches that salvation is healing from sin through cooperation with the uncreated Divine Grace, eventually coming into theosis, that we become by Grace what God is by nature. The other one teaches that salvation is a legal act, reconciling us with a wrathful God.

One teaches that we are to worship in the Spirit and the Truth, and Scriptures, writings of the Fathers, Council texts etc are witnesses of that Truth, which is Jesus Christ. The other one considers the texts themselves to be the Truth.

One is prayer without ceasing, the other one is rationaist brain acrobatics.

One is the faith of the Apostles and Fathers, the other one is Roman Catholicism without pope and filioque, or eastern rite high-church Protestantism (Peter the Great's synod is the best example for that).

I believe in all of these and fail to see the dichotomy.
It looks like Gorazd thinks that a RC can't express their faith in those syrupy terms. Or a Protestant for the matter.
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« Reply #126 on: September 25, 2012, 02:09:59 AM »

It looks like Gorazd thinks that a RC can't express their faith in those syrupy terms. Or a Protestant for the matter.

AFAIK present Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism in my country is heading right to the syrupy direction along with the modern EOs.
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« Reply #127 on: September 25, 2012, 09:40:03 AM »

If RCs and Lutherans are heading into an Orthodox direction, I welcome that, of course.

But the point is: There is a basic contradiction here between the Patristic and the Western teaching. If you consider a good and an evil God the Father to be just different terminologies for the same thing, then sorry, I cannot help you.

In addition to that basic contradiction, the RC have dogmatised and the Protestants have included into their confessional documents (such as Luther's catechisms) these wrong and inacceptable teachings. We haven't, thanks God, even though there were (and are - Iconodule and Vladimir Moss are examples for that) come Orthodox Christians who are holding such views. The teaching of the Church remains the teaching of the Fathers.

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« Reply #128 on: September 25, 2012, 10:01:55 AM »

Why don't we examine Moss' writings on Original Sin and point out exactly by quotes what are his problems.  As far as I see it, I tend to agree I don't see a dichotomy, but a harmony of both views.
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« Reply #129 on: September 25, 2012, 10:23:00 AM »

Why don't we examine Moss' writings on Original Sin and point out exactly by quotes what are his problems.  As far as I see it, I tend to agree I don't see a dichotomy, but a harmony of both views.

Now I was speaking about WC in general, though we could of course analyse Moss' writings, if someone would provide me with a link

Are we sinners, because we are born? Yes or no? It's not like yes and no to this question are complimentary.
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« Reply #130 on: September 25, 2012, 10:35:14 AM »

Why don't we examine Moss' writings on Original Sin and point out exactly by quotes what are his problems.  As far as I see it, I tend to agree I don't see a dichotomy, but a harmony of both views.

I prefer to read Gorazd and Iconodule going back and forth.

I'm giving the edge right now to Iconodule primarily for style points, although Gorazd is doing a great job in his step-mother tongue. Great stuff on both sides.
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« Reply #131 on: September 25, 2012, 11:00:14 AM »

For what its worth I tend to agree with Gorazd in my own experience but there is something to be said for a level of harmony that could potentially exist between the two. But i tend to agree with Gorazd in that the way the views are set up now between OO/EO and RCC, there is a bit of a dichotomy.

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« Reply #132 on: September 25, 2012, 12:21:37 PM »

Here is his critique of "River of Fire". This might be a good place to start.

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/207/%E2%80%9C-river-fire%E2%80%9D-revisited/
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« Reply #133 on: September 25, 2012, 01:11:05 PM »

Why don't we examine Moss' writings on Original Sin and point out exactly by quotes what are his problems.  As far as I see it, I tend to agree I don't see a dichotomy, but a harmony of both views.

Now I was speaking about WC in general, though we could of course analyse Moss' writings, if someone would provide me with a link

Are we sinners, because we are born? Yes or no? It's not like yes and no to this question are complimentary.
No one is a sinner "because" they are born.  We are simply born in the state of sin.  I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth.
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« Reply #134 on: September 25, 2012, 01:18:56 PM »

Why don't we examine Moss' writings on Original Sin and point out exactly by quotes what are his problems.  As far as I see it, I tend to agree I don't see a dichotomy, but a harmony of both views.

Now I was speaking about WC in general, though we could of course analyse Moss' writings, if someone would provide me with a link

Are we sinners, because we are born? Yes or no? It's not like yes and no to this question are complimentary.
No one is a sinner "because" they are born.  We are simply born in the state of sin.  I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth.

Clearly, my friend, you are not subscribing enough evil to the God-hating papists.
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« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2012, 01:47:13 PM »

No one is a sinner "because" they are born.  We are simply born in the state of sin.  I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth.
This is such a serious theological issue, that we should not try to find faulty compromises.

Quote
Augustine of Hippo (354-430) taught that Adam's sin[16] is transmitted by concupiscence, resulting in mankind becoming a massa damnata (mass of perdition, condemned crowd
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Actually, this would need another thread, unless we would specifically want to discuss anything Vladimir Moss said on that issue.
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« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2012, 01:49:35 PM »

If we're going to talk about Moss' views on Romanides' views on original sin, I suppose this is the article to read:

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/399/romanides-original-sin/
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« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2012, 07:01:25 PM »

No one is a sinner "because" they are born.  We are simply born in the state of sin.  I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth.
This is such a serious theological issue, that we should not try to find faulty compromises.

Quote
Augustine of Hippo (354-430) taught that Adam's sin[16] is transmitted by concupiscence, resulting in mankind becoming a massa damnata (mass of perdition, condemned crowd
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Actually, this would need another thread, unless we would specifically want to discuss anything Vladimir Moss said on that issue.
I don't think I'm compromising anything.  I think some of these teachings exist in St Athanasius and St Cyril of Alexandria.  When we are born, we are born "exiled", separate from God's grace to a certain extant, in a state of sin.  In our Coptic liturgies, we pray "even if one's life may be just one day, he is still not without sin." We all fall short of the glory of God.  Nevertheless, by partaking of His glory, our exile, our state of sin is abolished, our disease of sin is cured, and our continuous sins are forgiven, and our lives continue to become illuminated.

Perhaps we can discuss St. Augustine in another thread.  Let's just stick with Moss.  Can you quote anything from Moss that bothers you?
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« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2012, 07:03:55 PM »

Why don't we examine Moss' writings on Original Sin and point out exactly by quotes what are his problems.  As far as I see it, I tend to agree I don't see a dichotomy, but a harmony of both views.

Now I was speaking about WC in general, though we could of course analyse Moss' writings, if someone would provide me with a link

Are we sinners, because we are born? Yes or no? It's not like yes and no to this question are complimentary.
No one is a sinner "because" they are born.  We are simply born in the state of sin.  I don't think any Catholic would say one is a sinner because of birth.

Clearly, my friend, you are not subscribing enough evil to the God-hating papists.
I have sinned!  Forgive me! angel
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2012, 10:32:25 AM »

I am still reading the text written by Vladimir Moss and linked by Jonathan Gress. There definitely is something in there that bothers me, but please have patience with me, so that I read the text in depth.
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« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2012, 02:29:52 PM »

I am still reading the text written by Vladimir Moss and linked by Jonathan Gress. There definitely is something in there that bothers me, but please have patience with me, so that I read the text in depth.
Sure...no rush...I'll be reading the text with you  Smiley
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« Reply #141 on: October 05, 2012, 09:15:18 AM »

agghhhh!!!

What is the point of reading the books of these modern day "scholars"?

Why spend time reading them when they could possibly be heretical when you can just read the HOLY FATHERS INSTEAD!
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« Reply #142 on: October 05, 2012, 02:17:40 PM »

agghhhh!!!

What is the point of reading the books of these modern day "scholars"?

Why spend time reading them when they could possibly be heretical when you can just read the HOLY FATHERS INSTEAD!

A certain degree of caution should be exercised when reading the Holy Fathers as well. We don't just check our reason at the door. Certain modern writers are also more accessible than the Holy Fathers. They tend to write in simpler styles, unmitigated by translational issues, and address contemporary issues the Holy Fathers did not.
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