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Author Topic: Who is Vladimir Moss?? is he an orthodox Christian??  (Read 7841 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: September 20, 2012, 10:49:03 AM »

I am a protestant . Recently, I studied orthodoxy. I like its dotrince and enjoy the teaching of ancient faith radio. The concept of God in Orthodox church seems not as horrible and violence as the one in Protestant.

But, recently, I find out an orthodox christianity author called Vladimir moss. His writing or understanding about orginal sin, juridical, penal view, gospel seems closer to the teaching in {rotestant. He even criticizes the teaching of Steve Robinson in youtube(e.g. Love Wins - An Orthodox View / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8)   is a heretic teaching

I really don't like his teaching.....

Is he an orthodox christian??IS his teaching really the Orthodox one??Whay is your comment on his writing??

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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 10:50:12 AM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8


This is heretical teaching, a denial of the doctrine of Christ's Sacrifice for sin on the Cross, which is ORTHODOX teaching. It comes from the heretical teacher Fr. John Romanides, an ecumenist and newcalendarist.

Vladimir Moss   One week before



Is this true??
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 10:52:53 AM »

Is he an orthodox christian??IS his teaching really the Orthodox one??Whay is your comment on his writing??

Vladimir Moss is a schismatic and not a member of any canonical Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 10:55:20 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 11:08:05 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
The problem is when one represents those views as the only ones Orthodox Christians can have.
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 11:10:16 AM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 11:11:59 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
The problem is when one represents those views as the only ones Orthodox Christians can have.

Agreed. But then again it's not that different from the opposing party with Western Captivities and the like.
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walter1234
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 11:16:44 AM »

I'm pretty sure he's a member of HOTCA which is an Old Calendarist synod. While I have enjoyed reading some of his writings on church history I don't like most everything I've read of his theological works.

I even think that he is a protestant  or semi-protestant when I read his written work . His view on orginal sin, salvation, GOd's juridical, wrath, penal is just similar and closer to the teaching of protestant which I am believing now.

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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 11:22:01 AM »

I think he is a member of some Old Calendarist church which is not in communion with the mainstream patriarchates.

That said, I don't think his opinions on those issues are anyhow problematic. An Orthodox Christian can legitimately have those kind of views.
The problem is when one represents those views as the only ones Orthodox Christians can have.

Agree, his written work can easily confuse the non-orthodox christian who is studying orthodoxy, like me!!
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 11:38:03 AM »

His view on orginal sin, salvation, GOd's juridical, wrath, penal is just similar and closer to the teaching of protestant which I am believing now.

Or perhaps Protestantism is closer to Orthodoxy than you've thought. Who knows, maybe Mr. Moss is right. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 01:32:41 PM »

my own thought is that the full truth is prolly a lil' Romanides and a lil' Moss.
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 01:56:20 PM »

Romanides was a canonical Orthodox Christian priest and full professor of theology, whose teachings are have a firm foundations in the Fathers.

Moss seems to be a schismatic, surely he cannot be considered on equal footing with Romanides. He also is the author of "Bolshevism and the Jews (Vladimir Moss)", a text which falls into the domain of obscure conspiracy theories.
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 02:07:45 PM »

I am reminding you that Fr. John Romanides was a priest and therefore he, as the forum rules say, has to be addressed here with his proper clergy title. Further violation of that rule will result in warnings.
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 02:23:56 PM »

Romanides was a canonical Orthodox Christian priest and full professor of theology, whose teachings are have a firm foundations in the Fathers.

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 02:35:11 PM »

How about Steve Robinson and his video ----- 'Love Wins - An Orthodox View'  ?

Vladimir Moss said that the teaching of this video(e.g. Love Wins - an orthodox view) is a heretic teaching, and it is not the orthodox view of salvation. Is it true??
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2012, 02:39:18 PM »

I honestly cant believe why anyone would claim Fr. John as a heretic. The little I have read of him, i have greatly enjoyed and he is an extremely honest (i find) interpreter of the EO/OO split and most likely contributed greatly to the warm relations we have today
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2012, 02:50:48 PM »

Romanides was a canonical Orthodox Christian priest and full professor of theology, whose teachings are have a firm foundations in the Fathers.

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.

His "religion is a neurobiological illness" schtick is very shaky to say the least. Such a concept is nowhere to be found in the Fathers. In some places I think by religion he means "idolatry" but he starts talking about spinal fluid, short-circuit between the brain and heart, etc., it's clear he's using a gimmick to pander to scientism and new-agey "spiritual not religious" nonsense.
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 02:54:39 PM »

Oh i agree with that. I just dont think that makes him 'not Orthodox' Tongue. Perhaps Fr. John did make some points as such lol, but i still like a few of his writings. Then again, I have not read a vast amount of his work so i am no expert!

On a side note: i feel the 'ecumenist' charge (as if thats a heresy, WHICH i agree it can be but not when it comes to EO/OO relations) is always so divisive
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2012, 02:55:01 PM »

To the OP: You might want to get a good reliable overview of Orthodoxy by a general catechism & then proceed from there. See:  

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2012, 02:57:24 PM »

For the record, I don't think Fr. John is a heretic, but some people seem to adopt his peculiar views as a standard of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2012, 02:58:38 PM »

hmm, interesting! The neurobiology stuff just seems to be unnecessary Tongue.

BUT i think we have diverged from the question of OP Cheesy. Sorry!
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2012, 03:05:10 PM »

hmm, interesting! The neurobiology stuff just seems to be unnecessary Tongue.

BUT i think we have diverged from the question of OP Cheesy. Sorry!

Apparently you have not read Orthodox Psychotherapy.

The Church as a hospital of our spiritual existence is hardy a fringe belief.
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2012, 03:05:56 PM »



But, recently, I find out an orthodox christianity author called Vladimir moss. His writing or understanding about orginal sin, juridical, penal view, gospel seems closer to the teaching in {rotestant. He even criticizes the teaching of Steve Robinson in youtube(e.g. Love Wins - An Orthodox View / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8)   is a heretic teaching



Vladimir Moss said that the teaching of Steve Robinson (e.g. Love Wins - an orthodox view  /  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8) is a heretic teaching, and it is not the orthodox view of salvation.

Is the criticism of vladimir Moss correct??
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2012, 03:10:44 PM »

im not able to watch the video right now, but i think there is a move to downplay or completely do away with the concept of God's justice and judgment --- its all just His love and light! i think Vladimir Moss is at least correctly motivated in calling attention to teachings on God's justice and judgment.
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2012, 03:14:53 PM »

Nevermind.
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2012, 03:18:26 PM »

hmm, interesting! The neurobiology stuff just seems to be unnecessary Tongue.

BUT i think we have diverged from the question of OP Cheesy. Sorry!

Apparently you have not read Orthodox Psychotherapy.

The Church as a hospital of our spiritual existence is hardy a fringe belief.

Right. But when someone starts saying that Orthodoxy is the way to get your spinal fluid or blood flowing correctly, we are definitely in fringe territory.
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2012, 04:00:12 PM »

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
First of all, we usually say "Blessed Augustine" in the Orthodox Church. Secondly, even the greatest supporters of Bl. Augustine in the Orthodox Church, such as Fr. Seraphim Rose, do not endorse him because of his theology, but because of his holy life.

I think it is pretty much consent in the Church that Bl. Augustine's theology contains flaws and it is not exactly a model for imitation, especially not if isolated from the Greek Fathers.

His "religion is a neurobiological illness" schtick is very shaky to say the least
The whole quote is "Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." So, by saying that, Fr. John Romanides made it quite clear that he did not call Orthodoxy "a neurobiological illness", on the contrary.
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2012, 04:23:12 PM »

I have not read that actually! Would you recommend it?

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« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2012, 02:51:18 AM »

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
First of all, we usually say "Blessed Augustine" in the Orthodox Church.

Is that a historical convention or modern innovation which was meant to convey his lesser status? We have other non-controversial Saints who are called as Blesseds but I wonder what Augustine has been historically called

Quote
Secondly, even the greatest supporters of Bl. Augustine in the Orthodox Church, such as Fr. Seraphim Rose, do not endorse him because of his theology, but because of his holy life.

IIRC Sts. Gregory Palamas and Photios enorsed him partly because of his theology. But anyway, this is irrelevant. He is a Holy Father and anyone who belittles any of the Holy Fathers has hardly firm foundations in Fathers.

I might have misunderstood what Fr. John had to say about Augustine though. If his view was more positive, feel free to correct me.

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I think it is pretty much consent in the Church that Bl. Augustine's theology contains flaws and it is not exactly a model for imitation, especially not if isolated from the Greek Fathers.

Present, non-historical consent. Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which other nationalities should be compared to and no Father can be read in isolation from the rest.
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« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2012, 04:22:47 AM »

Is that a historical convention or modern innovation which was meant to convey his lesser status?
It is historical, already appears in the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

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IIRC Sts. Gregory Palamas and Photios enorsed him partly because of his theology.
Guess that would need a thread of its own. But I'd be interested to read the quotes by these two saints.

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But anyway, this is irrelevant. He is a Holy Father
His sainthood is extremely controversial in the Orthodox Church. And the reasons for that are in his theology. Ironically, the more yu push for his theology to be accepted, the more you encourage people who don't want him to be considered a saint at all. Would it not be a reasonable position to recognise his person holiness while admitting flaws in his theology?

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Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which other nationalities should be compared to
The western fathers such as Saints Ambrosius, Jerome, Hilarius, John Cassian etc. have the same theology as them. Bl. Augustine is the odd one out.
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« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2012, 05:08:02 AM »

IIRC Sts. Gregory Palamas and Photios enorsed him partly because of his theology.
Guess that would need a thread of its own. But I'd be interested to read the quotes by these two saints.

I must admit I've used only second hand source. That's what Orthodox Readings of Augustine by George E. Demacopoulos and Aristotle Papanikolaou is saying. I don't have a copy of it at hand but quick search offered at least something. See p. 12 and onwards.

Quote
But anyway, this is irrelevant. He is a Holy Father
His sainthood is extremely controversial in the Orthodox Church. And the reasons for that are in his theology. Ironically, the more yu push for his theology to be accepted, the more you encourage people who don't want him to be considered a saint at all. Would it not be a reasonable position to recognise his person holiness while admitting flaws in his theology?

Of course I admit that there might be some potential flaws in his theology. No one is disputing that. All I'm saying is that IMO it seems that the Orthodox are reading his writing a lot more critically than the rest of the Fathers' writings. No one is scandalized by Apokatastasis, attributing sins to the Mother of God or, say, imperfect explanation of Trinity by some of the Fathers but when Augustine makes some mistake there's a lot more scandal in that. The mistakes of Augustine should be overlooked like the mistakes of other Fathers' are overlooked.

That's the historical approach to the criticism of Augustine. IIRC when St. John Cassian was correcting Augustine's mistakes he was not even mentioning his name out of reverence for him.

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Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which other nationalities should be compared to
The western fathers such as Saints Ambrosius, Jerome, Hilarius, John Cassian etc. have the same theology as them. Bl. Augustine is the odd one out.

Well that could be true but that's just proof that Greek Fathers are not standard of Orthodoxy to which Latin, Arab etc. Fathers should be compared to. All Fathers regardless of nationalities should be consulted. We are the Catholic Church, not the Greek Church.
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« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 05:54:36 AM »

The mistakes of Augustine should be overlooked like the mistakes of other Fathers' are overlooked.
The mistakes of other fathers don't such a great wirkungsgeschichte*.


*although of German origin, this is used as an English word in some philosophical and theological texts. may be approximately translated as "history of effects".
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 06:16:24 AM »

The mistakes of Augustine should be overlooked like the mistakes of other Fathers' are overlooked.
The mistakes of other fathers don't such a great wirkungsgeschichte*.

Yes, they do. Remember St. Paul and Protestantism. While there aren't any errors in his epistles there are certain quotes from him which are widely misused as a basis for Protestantism.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I love German language. No other language can produce words like that. Grin
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2012, 06:31:54 AM »

Yes, they do. Remember St. Paul and Protestantism. While there aren't any errors in his epistles there are certain quotes from him which are widely misused as a basis for Protestantism.
Yes, but I would seriously argue that here, the fault is not with St. Paul. Whereas Bl. Augustine could have avoided his mistakes by reading the Greek fathers.

EDIT: I forgot to add that I love German language. No other language can produce words like that. Grin

Thank you, but I guess all Germanic languages can do that. It is usually translated to Swedish as verkanshistoria.
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2012, 06:34:38 AM »

Yes, but I would seriously argue that here, the fault is not with St. Paul. Whereas Bl. Augustine could have avoided his mistakes by reading the Greek fathers.

He couldn't. St. Augustine had some problems with Greek.
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2012, 06:49:03 AM »

Thank you, but I guess all Germanic languages can do that. It is usually translated to Swedish as verkanshistoria.

But verkanshistoria sounds a lot more boring than wirkungsgeschichte. Swedish would need a lot more consonants to compete with German.

Btw, in Finnish that would be vaikutushistoria. We too lose to Germans.
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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2012, 06:55:47 AM »

Yes, but I would seriously argue that here, the fault is not with St. Paul. Whereas Bl. Augustine could have avoided his mistakes by reading the Greek fathers.

He couldn't. St. Augustine had some problems with Greek.
That's precisely my point. Instead of re-solving already better solved theological problems, he should have worked on his Greek.
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« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2012, 12:48:41 PM »

I've read just about nothing from Fr. John himself but considering what he seemed to think about St. Augustine I wouldn't say he had firm foundations in the Fathers.
First of all, we usually say "Blessed Augustine" in the Orthodox Church.

"Blessed" and "Saint" are synonyms in the Orthodox Church. For example, Saint Theophylact of Ohrid is often called "Blessed."

Saint Augustine is a saint.
Quote
The whole quote is "Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." So, by saying that, Fr. John Romanides made it quite clear that he did not call Orthodoxy "a neurobiological illness", on the contrary.

Yes, I understand that he is making a distinction between Orthodoxy and "religion." My point is, it's a bogus distinction and a gimmick.
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« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2012, 01:55:12 PM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8


This is heretical teaching, a denial of the doctrine of Christ's Sacrifice for sin on the Cross, which is ORTHODOX teaching. It comes from the heretical teacher Fr. John Romanides, an ecumenist and newcalendarist.

Vladimir Moss   One week before



Is this true??

It is true that you should not take Mr. Moss's claim of heresy at face value. If he claims that Mr. Robinson's teaching is heretical, he should at least give a thorough explanation why. Unfortunately, Mr. Moss throws claims of heresy around like it is a hobby, but has he provided a more thorough explanation for his views anywhere?
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« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2012, 02:02:01 PM »

My point is, it's a bogus distinction and a gimmick.
Why do you think so?
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« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2012, 02:41:57 PM »

My point is, it's a bogus distinction and a gimmick.
Why do you think so?

Because Orthodoxy is a religion. Those who say, "Orthodoxy is not a religion" will usually define "religion" in a way that it is not defined in common discourse. They say "Orthodoxy is not a religion" to grab your attention, but when they finally explain themselves, they've really just shuffled some definitions around and are not saying anything new. Hence it's a gimmick.

Like I said, Fr. John is trying to couch Orthodox spirituality in terms of modern medicine and presenting it as some kind of science for properly aligning the heart and the brain, getting the proper flow of blood and spinal fluid, etc. He is appealing to materialism and scientism.

He says: We call religion a neurobiological sickness since it stems from a short-circuit between the nervous system centered in the heart, which circulates the spinal fluid, and the blood system centered in the heart which pumps blood throughout the body, including the nervous system. The cure of this sickness of religion is accomplished by repairing said short-circuit between the two hearts which pump blood and spinal fluid which allows them to function normally. In this normal state the various fantasies, religious and otherwise, produced by said short-circuit between the brain and the heart disappear and with them one's fantasies also disappear, including that of religion. The Bible calls this neurological energy the spirit of man which the Fathers came to call the noetic energy.

First of all, who is "we" in the first sentence? Where in any of the fathers do we find this peculiar idea of "religion" and Orthodoxy curing a "short-circuit" between the nervous system and the circulatory system?

Fr. John's approach in making a spiritual discipline out to be an empiricist medical science is disturbingly reminiscent of similar efforts by various new age gurus.
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« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2012, 02:52:41 PM »

You are criticising Fr. John for appealing to modern definitions, and yet you appeal to a modern definition of "religion", too. Did the Fathers call Orthodoxy a "religion"?
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« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2012, 03:39:37 PM »

You are criticising Fr. John for appealing to modern definitions, and yet you appeal to a modern definition of "religion", too.

Please point me to a pre-modern source defining religion (or comparable Latin/ Greek words) as "a neurobiological illness." The English word "religion" has Latin roots and has a very stable definition over time.

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Did the Fathers call Orthodoxy a "religion"?

 Fr. John uses the word threskeia which is found in the scriptures and the Fathers to describe the Christian religion.
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« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2012, 03:46:01 PM »

I think the problem with Steve Robinson's approach (he's not a priest right? If he is I'll add the Fr. to his name) is that it is much too unsophisticated. I don't think it holds up well under scrutiny.
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« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2012, 04:07:58 PM »

I think the problem with Steve Robinson's approach (he's not a priest right? If he is I'll add the Fr. to his name) is that it is much too unsophisticated. I don't think it holds up well under scrutiny.
He's some kind of minor clergy, but would probably get a good laugh to find out people were referring to him with some kind of liturgical title.
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