Author Topic: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church  (Read 670 times)

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Offline Ivanov

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Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« on: September 20, 2012, 10:19:20 AM »
I just finished spending close to an hour typing a very heartfelt response from my experience as a convert to the Orthodox Church. I would like to think that it would have been helpful, but alas, when I went to post it, I was then "told" that I needed to log in again. Apparently that message is lost despite my continued typing in the "reply" application. Wonder if that message can be retrieved?

Moderator... can it be? There may be but I have lost postings and not been able to retrieve them, Father A may know how to do it as he is the owner of oc.net---Thomas, Convert Issues Forum Moderator)

At any rate, I agree with the poster who said he has regrets about not having received Orthodox Baptism. I agree strongly. I understand ekonomia, and I also fear its overuse, especially in an American "religious" environment where "christian pluralism" and the poison of RCC-sponsored ecumenism run rampant. No one is exempt from those seductions, it seems. I've had one priest tell me that I would be chrismated because his Bishop didn't want to "offend Roman Catholics".

A pastoral acquiesence, where allowable, to the consciences of those who come seeking Orthodoxy and its Baptism would certainly be welcomed... and even, perhaps, serve as as rebuke (in our wildly ecumenical, indifferentist days) to those who ignore that there was but ONE, original and inviolable Foundation laid upon which Christ builds His Church.. and there is but One Lord, One Faith and One Baptism... and that no other foundation (church) can be subsequently laid, though many have tried, and still do.

I say this from my 41 years experience since a very real conversion/confrontation (pre-Orthodox) at age 21, and the understanding I've tried to cultivate as a result. This is the imprint of MY conscience. I am not advising or attempting to instruct. That would be quite presumptious for a "new" and rather dull convert like myself. I am a catechuman in an OCA parish, but need to relocate, and will do so (God willing) to a town with a ROCOR parish. (And I am not in any way endorsing one jurisdiction over another..as though that would mean anything anyway.)

All said, my faith is to be evidenced by submission to the prescriptions of an Orthodox Bishop in good standing who understands my particular path to his door.

Glory to God in His Holy Church!

Ivanov

« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 11:19:40 AM by Thomas »
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 10:37:29 AM »
There is great misunderstanding on this issue. It is not oikonomia, but rather akribeia (as dictated by Canon 95 of the Fifth/Sixth Ecumenical Council, also called Trullo), to receive heretics of many sorts by chrismation or even mere profession of faith. In fact, even Manicheans (!) are to be received through profession of faith. I think it's fair to say that Roman Catholics are closer to the Truth than Manicheans. Even St Mark of Ephesus agreed, and said that Latins should not be rebaptized.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 10:42:17 AM by pensateomnia »
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 10:44:38 AM »
There is great misunderstanding on this issue. It is not oikonomia, but rather akribeia (as dictated by Canon 95 of the Fifth/Sixth Ecumenical Council, also called Trullo), to receive heretics of many sorts by chrismation or even mere profession of faith. In fact, even Manicheans (!) are to be received through profession of faith. I think it's fair to say that Roman Catholics are closer to the Truth than Manicheans. Even St Mark of Ephesus agreed, and said that Latins should not be rebaptized.
But are not the Latins different now from how they were in St. Mark's time?

In Christ,
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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 10:52:45 AM »
There is great misunderstanding on this issue. It is not oikonomia, but rather akribeia (as dictated by Canon 95 of the Fifth/Sixth Ecumenical Council, also called Trullo), to receive heretics of many sorts by chrismation or even mere profession of faith. In fact, even Manicheans (!) are to be received through profession of faith. I think it's fair to say that Roman Catholics are closer to the Truth than Manicheans. Even St Mark of Ephesus agreed, and said that Latins should not be rebaptized.
But are not the Latins different now from how they were in St. Mark's time?

In Christ,
Andrew

That's just an example, one of many, of the Church's thinking and practice on the topic.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline Alpo

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 10:58:13 AM »
There is great misunderstanding on this issue. It is not oikonomia, but rather akribeia (as dictated by Canon 95 of the Fifth/Sixth Ecumenical Council, also called Trullo), to receive heretics of many sorts by chrismation or even mere profession of faith. In fact, even Manicheans (!) are to be received through profession of faith. I think it's fair to say that Roman Catholics are closer to the Truth than Manicheans. Even St Mark of Ephesus agreed, and said that Latins should not be rebaptized.

This bypasses the key issue. Do you believe that the heterodox baptism confers the same grace as the Orthodox baptism does?

Offline Agabus

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2012, 11:11:03 AM »
There is great misunderstanding on this issue. It is not oikonomia, but rather akribeia (as dictated by Canon 95 of the Fifth/Sixth Ecumenical Council, also called Trullo), to receive heretics of many sorts by chrismation or even mere profession of faith. In fact, even Manicheans (!) are to be received through profession of faith. I think it's fair to say that Roman Catholics are closer to the Truth than Manicheans. Even St Mark of Ephesus agreed, and said that Latins should not be rebaptized.

This bypasses the key issue. Do you believe that the heterodox baptism confers the same grace as the Orthodox baptism does?
I think that the general view of those who do not receive the heterodox by baptism is that chrismation fills any gaps in grace a heterodox baptism may have had.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 11:11:51 AM by Agabus »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2012, 11:15:23 AM »
There is great misunderstanding on this issue. It is not oikonomia, but rather akribeia (as dictated by Canon 95 of the Fifth/Sixth Ecumenical Council, also called Trullo), to receive heretics of many sorts by chrismation or even mere profession of faith. In fact, even Manicheans (!) are to be received through profession of faith. I think it's fair to say that Roman Catholics are closer to the Truth than Manicheans. Even St Mark of Ephesus agreed, and said that Latins should not be rebaptized.

This bypasses the key issue. Do you believe that the heterodox baptism confers the same grace as the Orthodox baptism does?
I think that the general view of those who do not receive the heterodox by baptism is that chrismation fills any gaps in grace a heterodox baptism may have had.

I certainly hope so. But there seems to be exceptions to this rule. The dispute about whether converts should or should not be baptized is IMO a non-issue. Discussion should be about whether heterodox confer or doesn't confer grace.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 11:22:08 AM »
ISTM, but I may be wrong, that the real debate is do you know more about baptism and chrismation than your Bishop?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 11:28:19 AM »
ISTM, but I may be wrong, that the real debate is do you know more about baptism and chrismation than your Bishop?

Yes. :police:

Online Dominika

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Re: Conversion and modes of reception into The Church
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 12:04:25 PM »
I was baptised in RC Church when I was 7 years old. Although I was a child, I really felt hm, a some kind of grace, my life truly has changed: I've become pious, I loved God and experienced a relation with Him.

So I do not regret I was received into Orthodox Church "only" via chrismation. At every Liturgy I confess "I believe in one baptism". For me there is needed the Trinitarian formula and water. In the Church Canons is even written, that  every Christian can baptize a person whose life is in danger.

As for chrismation, it's not so obvious for me. If somebody had been chrismated in Catholic Church, should he been chrismated in Orthodox Church again? Personally, I think it's better to repeat it again because of the filioque issue. The Holy Spirit is the most important in this Mystery and as we know Catholics have heretical teaching about the origin (I hope it's good word in English) of the Holy Spirit.
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