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Author Topic: Is Jesus Christ an Anarchist  (Read 3018 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2012, 08:02:50 PM »

And Veganism will shorten your life span.... God seems to have a sense of humor.
I'm actually just a vegetarian but I didn't have enough characters Sad
http://www.heimat-fuer-tiere.de/english/articles/ethic/church_fathers.DHTML
I'm not against non-vegetarians but I just thought you might find this interesting
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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2012, 08:05:01 PM »

Here is a real Anarchist, Nestor Machno. His Army fought under the Black Flag during the Russian Revolution. When they would capture a town or city they would go to town hall and burn all the records including land deeds and birth certificates.


I do not condone his actions, but what about the countless murders the US does in the middle east on a daily basis...
Roll Eyes

And just what countless murders are you referring to?  I don't know of any.  But I suggest prior to your reply you study up on what Rules of Engagement means and how it's employed.
the countless murder of civilians in Pakistan by way of drone warfare, the countless murders in Afghanistan to find one man.  In Iraq it was bad but Jesus never promised his path was easy and if the Iraqi state didn't exist that wouldn't have happened.  In my opinion 9/11 should have been our call to leave the middle east, we have been fighting them for over 200 years (Barbary pirates war) and until someone steps up and turns the other cheek, this circle of violence will continue.  Remember, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52).  He didn't say "might" He said "will" and the state is no different
That's a lot of opinion you have there.
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« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2012, 08:06:08 PM »

I would not doubt if he was.  Remember, anarchism isn't just for kids who dress and black wanting their drugs.  It is a very interesting and good concept in many ways.
Amen, I'm 25 and I've yet to meet a violent anarchist or an anarchist who only does it for the drugs.  The problem is that too many people have a misconception about anarchy and they think all of us are violent drug addicts. 
You must not get out much. 
you must watch too much fox news
Not so much.
fox news, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, whatever.  They are all the same

No, they are not all the same, but at least you didn't add ESPN to the list.
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« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2012, 08:07:18 PM »

I do not doubt for a second that many anarchists are friendly peaceful people who only wish for a better society, however, the problem is, that you never hear about them. I can't say anything about the US but in Denmark, you never see a pacifist anarchist writing an article or appearing on television to explain what anarchism is all about and how society should be. Instead they are giving room for extremists who are running through the streets, setting cars on fire.
in that case, be the first, start a revolution, I'll pray that that happens for Denmark and thanks for bringing this to my attention, I will look into it

It sounds as if you are talking about hippie culture.
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« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2012, 08:35:44 PM »

Here is a real Anarchist, Nestor Machno. His Army fought under the Black Flag during the Russian Revolution. When they would capture a town or city they would go to town hall and burn all the records including land deeds and birth certificates.


I do not condone his actions, but what about the countless murders the US does in the middle east on a daily basis...
Roll Eyes

And just what countless murders are you referring to?  I don't know of any.  But I suggest prior to your reply you study up on what Rules of Engagement means and how it's employed.
the countless murder of civilians in Pakistan by way of drone warfare, the countless murders in Afghanistan to find one man.  In Iraq it was bad but Jesus never promised his path was easy and if the Iraqi state didn't exist that wouldn't have happened.  In my opinion 9/11 should have been our call to leave the middle east, we have been fighting them for over 200 years (Barbary pirates war) and until someone steps up and turns the other cheek, this circle of violence will continue.  Remember, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52).  He didn't say "might" He said "will" and the state is no different
That's a lot of opinion you have there.
sometimes the honest truth is the one that hurts the most
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2012, 11:29:49 PM »

Here is a real Anarchist, Nestor Machno. His Army fought under the Black Flag during the Russian Revolution. When they would capture a town or city they would go to town hall and burn all the records including land deeds and birth certificates.


I do not condone his actions, but what about the countless murders the US does in the middle east on a daily basis...
Roll Eyes

And just what countless murders are you referring to?  I don't know of any.  But I suggest prior to your reply you study up on what Rules of Engagement means and how it's employed.
the countless murder of civilians in Pakistan by way of drone warfare, the countless murders in Afghanistan to find one man.  In Iraq it was bad but Jesus never promised his path was easy and if the Iraqi state didn't exist that wouldn't have happened.  In my opinion 9/11 should have been our call to leave the middle east, we have been fighting them for over 200 years (Barbary pirates war) and until someone steps up and turns the other cheek, this circle of violence will continue.  Remember, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52).  He didn't say "might" He said "will" and the state is no different
That's a lot of opinion you have there.
sometimes the honest truth is the one that hurts the most
I didn't say you were accurate, in fact I disagree with you.
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« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2012, 08:25:21 AM »

Here is a real Anarchist, Nestor Machno. His Army fought under the Black Flag during the Russian Revolution. When they would capture a town or city they would go to town hall and burn all the records including land deeds and birth certificates.


I do not condone his actions, but what about the countless murders the US does in the middle east on a daily basis...
Roll Eyes

And just what countless murders are you referring to?  I don't know of any.  But I suggest prior to your reply you study up on what Rules of Engagement means and how it's employed.
the countless murder of civilians in Pakistan by way of drone warfare, the countless murders in Afghanistan to find one man.  In Iraq it was bad but Jesus never promised his path was easy and if the Iraqi state didn't exist that wouldn't have happened.  In my opinion 9/11 should have been our call to leave the middle east, we have been fighting them for over 200 years (Barbary pirates war) and until someone steps up and turns the other cheek, this circle of violence will continue.  Remember, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52).  He didn't say "might" He said "will" and the state is no different
That's a lot of opinion you have there.
sometimes the honest truth is the one that hurts the most
I didn't say you were accurate

so now I'm not accurate.  I've got a double major in theology and history but apparently I have no idea what I'm talking about.  It is you who needs to do more research.  There are countless crimes the US and pretty much all other states have done that have gone unanswered.  If all the middle eastern countries came and do to us what we did to them... Oh wait, 9/11
always remember, if Jesus ran for president, you wouldn't vote for him because he is a long-haired, peace loving, hippie, Arab Jew whose best outfit today is a t-shirt and jeans and would drive around in a station wagon and would have told all the rich people to deny their riches and give it all to the poor (which he did in Mark 10:25).  In fact, no Christian in America would vote for him... Maybe you should start re-examining that quote you have as your signature and research some other stuff Justin Martyr said... It might surprise you
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« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2012, 09:26:59 AM »

I would not doubt if he was.  Remember, anarchism isn't just for kids who dress and black wanting their drugs.  It is a very interesting and good concept in many ways.
Amen, I'm 25 and I've yet to meet a violent anarchist or an anarchist who only does it for the drugs.  The problem is that too many people have a misconception about anarchy and they think all of us are violent drug addicts. 
You must not get out much. 
you must watch too much fox news
Not so much.
fox news, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, whatever.  They are all the same

No, they are not all the same, but at least you didn't add ESPN to the list.

Indeed.  They do have different combinations of letters and all...
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« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2012, 03:06:06 PM »

Not really. I mean, he urged people to pay their taxes and submit to Caeser and he adhered to the laws of the Roman Empire.
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« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2012, 03:11:00 PM »

"For Anarchy is a thing without order; and the Rule of Many is factious, and thus anarchical, and thus disorderly. For both these tend to the same thing, namely disorder; and this to dissolution, for disorder is the first step to dissolution. But Monarchy is that which we hold in honour. " - St. Gregory the Theologian, Third Theological Oration.

And yes, I know I horribly ripped it out of context.

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« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 03:11:09 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2012, 05:39:46 PM »

Not really. I mean, he urged people to pay their taxes and submit to Caeser and he adhered to the laws of the Roman Empire.
so... He didn't want us to rebel... Which only proves my point that He is a pacifist and the only way to be a TRUE pacifist is to be an anarchist.  Also, He died for our sins but He died BECAUSE of the established government at that time.  Could easily used as an analogy to show that the state is anti-God and therefore we must separate ourselves from it.  That is what the early Christians tried to do, which is why they got persecuted so much, just a thought

its also important to remember that just because you adopt anarchy as a theory does not automaticaly mean you have to break laws it just means you feel as if it would be better if they weren't there
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« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2012, 05:46:50 PM »

"For Anarchy is a thing without order; and the Rule of Many is factious, and thus anarchical, and thus disorderly. For both these tend to the same thing, namely disorder; and this to dissolution, for disorder is the first step to dissolution. But Monarchy is that which we hold in honour. " - St. Gregory the Theologian, Third Theological Oration.

And yes, I know I horribly ripped it out of context.

 Wink
yes that was ripped horribly out of context as in context he was talking about the Unity of The Holy Trinity

Wink
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« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2012, 05:56:43 PM »

Quote
Which only proves my point that He is a pacifist and the only way to be a TRUE pacifist is to be an anarchist.

What about Ghandi?
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« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2012, 06:08:47 PM »

Here is a real Anarchist, Nestor Machno. His Army fought under the Black Flag during the Russian Revolution. When they would capture a town or city they would go to town hall and burn all the records including land deeds and birth certificates.


I do not condone his actions, but what about the countless murders the US does in the middle east on a daily basis...
Roll Eyes

And just what countless murders are you referring to?  I don't know of any.  But I suggest prior to your reply you study up on what Rules of Engagement means and how it's employed.
the countless murder of civilians in Pakistan by way of drone warfare, the countless murders in Afghanistan to find one man.  In Iraq it was bad but Jesus never promised his path was easy and if the Iraqi state didn't exist that wouldn't have happened.  In my opinion 9/11 should have been our call to leave the middle east, we have been fighting them for over 200 years (Barbary pirates war) and until someone steps up and turns the other cheek, this circle of violence will continue.  Remember, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52).  He didn't say "might" He said "will" and the state is no different
That's a lot of opinion you have there.
sometimes the honest truth is the one that hurts the most
I didn't say you were accurate

so now I'm not accurate.  I've got a double major in theology and history but apparently I have no idea what I'm talking about.  It is you who needs to do more research.  There are countless crimes the US and pretty much all other states have done that have gone unanswered.  If all the middle eastern countries came and do to us what we did to them... Oh wait, 9/11
always remember, if Jesus ran for president, you wouldn't vote for him because he is a long-haired, peace loving, hippie, Arab Jew whose best outfit today is a t-shirt and jeans and would drive around in a station wagon and would have told all the rich people to deny their riches and give it all to the poor (which he did in Mark 10:25).  In fact, no Christian in America would vote for him... Maybe you should start re-examining that quote you have as your signature and research some other stuff Justin Martyr said... It might surprise you
Pretty much.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 06:31:19 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2012, 06:19:43 PM »

I would not doubt if he was.  Remember, anarchism isn't just for kids who dress and black wanting their drugs.  It is a very interesting and good concept in many ways.
Amen, I'm 25 and I've yet to meet a violent anarchist or an anarchist who only does it for the drugs.  The problem is that too many people have a misconception about anarchy and they think all of us are violent drug addicts. 
You must not get out much. 
you must watch too much fox news
Not so much.
fox news, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, whatever.  They are all the same

No, they are not all the same, but at least you didn't add ESPN to the list.

Indeed.  They do have different combinations of letters and all...
They also use a variety of filtering methods when reporting the news with differing rests.
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« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2012, 07:27:40 PM »

Here is a real Anarchist, Nestor Machno. His Army fought under the Black Flag during the Russian Revolution. When they would capture a town or city they would go to town hall and burn all the records including land deeds and birth certificates.


I do not condone his actions, but what about the countless murders the US does in the middle east on a daily basis...
Roll Eyes

And just what countless murders are you referring to?  I don't know of any.  But I suggest prior to your reply you study up on what Rules of Engagement means and how it's employed.
the countless murder of civilians in Pakistan by way of drone warfare, the countless murders in Afghanistan to find one man.  In Iraq it was bad but Jesus never promised his path was easy and if the Iraqi state didn't exist that wouldn't have happened.  In my opinion 9/11 should have been our call to leave the middle east, we have been fighting them for over 200 years (Barbary pirates war) and until someone steps up and turns the other cheek, this circle of violence will continue.  Remember, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword (Matthew 26:52).  He didn't say "might" He said "will" and the state is no different
That's a lot of opinion you have there.
sometimes the honest truth is the one that hurts the most
I didn't say you were accurate

so now I'm not accurate.  I've got a double major in theology and history but apparently I have no idea what I'm talking about.  It is you who needs to do more research.  There are countless crimes the US and pretty much all other states have done that have gone unanswered.  If all the middle eastern countries came and do to us what we did to them... Oh wait, 9/11
always remember, if Jesus ran for president, you wouldn't vote for him because he is a long-haired, peace loving, hippie, Arab Jew whose best outfit today is a t-shirt and jeans and would drive around in a station wagon and would have told all the rich people to deny their riches and give it all to the poor (which he did in Mark 10:25).  In fact, no Christian in America would vote for him... Maybe you should start re-examining that quote you have as your signature and research some other stuff Justin Martyr said... It might surprise you
Pretty much.


My apologies.  I thought I removed all of the post, but it appears I didn't. 
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« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2012, 07:28:25 PM »

I would not doubt if he was.  Remember, anarchism isn't just for kids who dress and black wanting their drugs.  It is a very interesting and good concept in many ways.
Amen, I'm 25 and I've yet to meet a violent anarchist or an anarchist who only does it for the drugs.  The problem is that too many people have a misconception about anarchy and they think all of us are violent drug addicts. 
You must not get out much. 
you must watch too much fox news
Not so much.
fox news, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, whatever.  They are all the same

No, they are not all the same, but at least you didn't add ESPN to the list.

Indeed.  They do have different combinations of letters and all...
They also use a variety of filtering methods when reporting the news with differing rests.
Results, auto correct...geesh.
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« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2012, 06:07:29 PM »

Quote
Which only proves my point that He is a pacifist and the only way to be a TRUE pacifist is to be an anarchist.

What about Ghandi?
"the state is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence, to which it owes its very existence"
-mahatma Ghandi
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« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2012, 06:10:33 PM »

I would not doubt if he was.  Remember, anarchism isn't just for kids who dress and black wanting their drugs.  It is a very interesting and good concept in many ways.
amen, I'm 25 and I've yet to meet a violent anarchist or an anarchist who only does it for the drugs.  The problem is that too many people have a misconception about anarchy and they think all of us are violent drug addicts. 
You must not get out much. 
you must watch too much fox news
Not so much.
fox news, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, whatever.  They are all the same

No, they are not all the same, but at least you didn't add ESPN to the list.

Indeed.  They do have different combinations of letters and all...
They also use a variety of filtering methods when reporting the news with differing rests.

all of which supports there statist opinions
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 06:11:45 PM by pmpn8rGPT » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2012, 06:26:15 PM »

I would not doubt if he was.  Remember, anarchism isn't just for kids who dress and black wanting their drugs.  It is a very interesting and good concept in many ways.
amen, I'm 25 and I've yet to meet a violent anarchist or an anarchist who only does it for the drugs.  The problem is that too many people have a misconception about anarchy and they think all of us are violent drug addicts. 
You must not get out much. 
you must watch too much fox news
Not so much.
fox news, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, whatever.  They are all the same

No, they are not all the same, but at least you didn't add ESPN to the list.

Indeed.  They do have different combinations of letters and all...
They also use a variety of filtering methods when reporting the news with differing rests.

all of which supports there statist opinions
In the same we we all do, including you.  So, how is one an anarchist against oneself? 
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« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2012, 10:05:54 PM »

I would not doubt if he was.  Remember, anarchism isn't just for kids who dress and black wanting their drugs.  It is a very interesting and good concept in many ways.
amen, I'm 25 and I've yet to meet a violent anarchist or an anarchist who only does it for the drugs.  The problem is that too many people have a misconception about anarchy and they think all of us are violent drug addicts. 
You must not get out much. 
you must watch too much fox news
Not so much.
fox news, MSNBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, whatever.  They are all the same

No, they are not all the same, but at least you didn't add ESPN to the list.

Indeed.  They do have different combinations of letters and all...
They also use a variety of filtering methods when reporting the news with differing rests.

all of which supports there statist opinions
In the same we we all do, including you.  So, how is one an anarchist against oneself? 
indeed we all support our opinions, but those "news" companies are propaganda machines that work for the state and support the military and they, as you noted before, filter the news to make themselves look right.  I always get my news sources from either first hand accounts if available or vice news.  And I back up my claims with evidence.  My point is that I don't filter the news I just open my eyes and I see from history that it is the state that is satan's biggest tool of destruction.  Some have said the beast in revelation is the state in general.  If the harlot of babylon rides it and is involved in the nations simultaniously (Revelation 17:1-8), that alone should be ringing alarms in your head.  Time will tell on that issue but in the meantime I think Matthew 4:1-11 is substantial enough for now.
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« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2012, 07:22:48 PM »

YeaYea Anarchist rock!
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« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2012, 05:16:15 PM »

I've heard this argument before but I recently read this online page which gave me new incite.  After praying and fasting on the question and looking to The Holy Scriptures for guidance I can only find one logical reason to believe he isn't an anarchist and that is Mark 12:17 but in context, this was at The Sermon on the Mount which he talked about denying riches.
http://www.anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html
any way, what does OC.net think?

In my opinion. He was anti-organization. Not anarchist. Anarchist is someone without values. Jesus had values.
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« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2013, 03:56:56 PM »

One persons anarchist is another persons Savior.

The truth is that he was crucified for just such an attitude towards what he was teaching that was against the norm then, and still today we struggle to understand.

WE must be sinners in order to be saved, the righteous need no savior.

<< Luke 5:32 >>

New International Version (©1984)
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

I'd say in order to save or even just defend someone, you have to be an anarchist. Therefore Jesus is an anarchist in the eyes of those who want others to bow down to them. And a saviour in the eyes of those who long for and depend on him saving/defending them. So he is both. He is also a bit of communist. In a good way though.
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« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 06:14:47 PM »

Jesus (Yeshua) did not follow the religious rulers in his day.

There are several instances where the governing ways & authorities didn't have his full support.  One of such the currency "But to satisfy them..." "Who's face do you see..."

"The only authority you have over me is that which my father gave you" - That was sort of a circumvention of governing authority. 
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« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2013, 06:30:25 PM »

How do you know he wasn't a socialist?

Or maybe he was a libertarian.

....or a libertarian socialist!

Or maybe Christ wasn't concerned so much with political philosophy, which would explain why he didn't teach classes on it.
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« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2013, 07:31:18 PM »

I think it would help if a specific definition of Christian Anarchism was articulated. Like pacifism, the concept is usually dismissed as absurd because of certain connotations based on misunderstanding. I imagine there are varyng degrees and definitions of anarchism, as there are with pacifism. I don't embrace anarchism, although I have some sympathy for the Tolstoyan model. But I am open to being persuaded.



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« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2013, 11:36:55 AM »

How do you know he wasn't a socialist?

Or maybe he was a libertarian.

....or a libertarian socialist!

Or maybe Christ wasn't concerned so much with political philosophy, which would explain why he didn't teach classes on it.

Point of order:

Jesus lived at a time when there was no working class, hence he could not have been a "Socialist"

He lived during an earlier social epoch. Occasionally people would organize themselves communally.

Jesus was for the poor and outcast which mimics the ethos of Socialism today.
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« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2013, 02:21:04 AM »

The whole question is a little blasphemous, at least in its perspective.
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« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2014, 11:44:22 AM »

It all depends on what one means by anarchist. To me it is rather clear that Christians should live without excessive regard of the state or any other trappings of power, and to me there is a contradiction between someone involved in politics (especially today) vying for power for its own sake and being a Christian.

Jesus Christ said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's", clearly demarcating a separation between the two and an indifference between them. Power, with all its few goods and many evils has its place in the world, but it is not of God. If anarchism means the complete destruction of the state, an utopian stateless society then such a belief, apart from being objectionable on a number of levels, some of which are possibly Christian, goes far beyond anything that Jesus Christ ever taught.

Be indifferent to the state and to power, that's the only Christian anarchism.
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« Reply #75 on: January 20, 2014, 12:11:53 PM »

It all depends on what one means by anarchist. To me it is rather clear that Christians should live without excessive regard of the state or any other trappings of power, and to me there is a contradiction between someone involved in politics (especially today) vying for power for its own sake and being a Christian.

Jesus Christ said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's", clearly demarcating a separation between the two and an indifference between them. Power, with all its few goods and many evils has its place in the world, but it is not of God. If anarchism means the complete destruction of the state, an utopian stateless society then such a belief, apart from being objectionable on a number of levels, some of which are possibly Christian, goes far beyond anything that Jesus Christ ever taught.

Be indifferent to the state and to power, that's the only Christian anarchism.

I just have to say this again every time I see this, but if you think that is what that verse means you cannot possibly be talking about the God of Scripture to whom all things find their source and proper being.

Everything's God's. That form Christ used doesn't differ from any of the similar similar rhetorical statements he used in Gospels. I guess everyone left the adulterous woman to find the guy without sin to come back and stone her?
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« Reply #76 on: January 20, 2014, 12:32:55 PM »

There all sorts of wild stories and speculations about the Historical Jesus.
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« Reply #77 on: January 20, 2014, 01:30:23 PM »

I just have to say this again every time I see this, but if you think that is what that verse means you cannot possibly be talking about the God of Scripture to whom all things find their source and proper being.

Everything's God's. That form Christ used doesn't differ from any of the similar similar rhetorical statements he used in Gospels. I guess everyone left the adulterous woman to find the guy without sin to come back and stone her?
I have seen the rhetorical-statement argument be made about MANY of Christ's sayings in order to nullify their radical thrust. But tell me then, what is your interpretation of that saying?

In what sense is everything God's? Is sin and evil also God's?

The second account of creation shows somewhat clearly that humans no longer exists in their natural home, and that this world, with all its beauty and suffering, is not our final home. Granted, we cannot stretch this into a dualism of matter and spirit. The Christian religion, far more than Judaism, tempers the first account of creation, which Judaism and Islam emphasise almost to the point of paganism and legalism, denying for example Original Sin, with the second account.

Christ's total message on an ethical level is one of indifference towards the world and worldly affairs - He tells us that we shouldn't worry too much about making a living, that we should be indifferent to evil ("Resist no evil") and not return evil (force) for evil ("Turn the other cheek"), and to be indifferent to those who do not want to listen to the Christian message, and yes also, to be indifferent towards power, that epitome of worldly meddling.
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« Reply #78 on: January 20, 2014, 01:38:28 PM »

“The world is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them the passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honour which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancour and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it” ‑ St. Isaac the Syrian
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« Reply #79 on: January 20, 2014, 01:54:14 PM »

He is an anarchist as perceived by the sin in this world. He is a true anarchist in this way.
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« Reply #80 on: January 20, 2014, 04:13:47 PM »

I just have to say this again every time I see this, but if you think that is what that verse means you cannot possibly be talking about the God of Scripture to whom all things find their source and proper being.

Everything's God's. That form Christ used doesn't differ from any of the similar similar rhetorical statements he used in Gospels. I guess everyone left the adulterous woman to find the guy without sin to come back and stone her?
In what sense is everything God's? Is sin and evil also God's?

Of course, who else has dominion over all? Nothing happens save by God's will. This is Judeo-Christian-Islamic thought 101.

No, the "radical" message here is mollified by the separation of the profane and sacred, thus allowing people to do the vilest things while being "good Christians": using interest, supporting war, etc.
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« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2014, 04:15:43 PM »

I just have to say this again every time I see this, but if you think that is what that verse means you cannot possibly be talking about the God of Scripture to whom all things find their source and proper being.

Everything's God's. That form Christ used doesn't differ from any of the similar similar rhetorical statements he used in Gospels. I guess everyone left the adulterous woman to find the guy without sin to come back and stone her?
I have seen the rhetorical-statement argument be made about MANY of Christ's sayings in order to nullify their radical thrust. But tell me then, what is your interpretation of that saying?

In what sense is everything God's? Is sin and evil also God's?

The second account of creation shows somewhat clearly that humans no longer exists in their natural home, and that this world, with all its beauty and suffering, is not our final home. Granted, we cannot stretch this into a dualism of matter and spirit. The Christian religion, far more than Judaism, tempers the first account of creation, which Judaism and Islam emphasise almost to the point of paganism and legalism, denying for example Original Sin, with the second account.

Christ's total message on an ethical level is one of indifference towards the world and worldly affairs - He tells us that we shouldn't worry too much about making a living, that we should be indifferent to evil ("Resist no evil") and not return evil (force) for evil ("Turn the other cheek"), and to be indifferent to those who do not want to listen to the Christian message, and yes also, to be indifferent towards power, that epitome of worldly meddling.

Sorry, not getting involved is getting involved all the romantic quotes aside from various Christian writers.
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« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2014, 11:30:30 PM »

In what sense is everything God's? Is sin and evil also God's?
'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'

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« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2014, 08:41:21 AM »

Nevertheless we are bidden to avoid sin and evil. That's the point here.
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« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2014, 09:30:34 AM »

In what sense is everything God's? Is sin and evil also God's?
'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'


This speaks of particular evils that befall a people or a person, not Evil as such. You're possibly delving into pantheism now.
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« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2014, 09:41:33 AM »

In what sense is everything God's? Is sin and evil also God's?
'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'


This speaks of particular evils that befall a people or a person, not Evil as such. You're possibly delving into pantheism now.

What is evil as such? So all instantiations of evil are of God but not the category? Why did you capitalize evil?

I don't think you know what pantheism is.
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« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2014, 12:22:35 PM »

In what sense is everything God's? Is sin and evil also God's?
'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.'


This speaks of particular evils that befall a people or a person, not Evil as such. You're possibly delving into pantheism now.
Evil is not an emanation of God, so no pantheism here. But ask yourself, does evil exist outside of God's "jurisdiction"?
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« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2014, 12:42:35 PM »

Of course evil exists because God allows it to exist. This is not the question here. There are nevertheless things and conduct that are not Godly and do not belong to God in that sense.

How would you interpret Christ's saying "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's"? What about Paul's "Be not conformed to this world" and "For as far as this world is concerned, you are already dead"? Are Christ and Paul here saying that the world (in its specific meaning) does not belong to God's jurisdiction or that it is not Godly and that it is therefore to be avoided by the Christian?
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