Author Topic: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife  (Read 3591 times)

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Offline JoeS2

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A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« on: September 18, 2012, 03:39:32 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html?_r=1

Translated legible text
“not [to] me. My mother gave to me li[fe]”“The disciples said to Jesus”“deny. Mary is worthy
of it”“Jesus said to them,
“My wife”“she will be able to
be my disciple”“Let wicked people
swell up”“As for me, I dwell with her in order to”“an image


Offline Father Peter

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 03:45:39 PM »
And?
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 03:47:43 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





stay blessed,
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Offline Shiny

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 03:53:29 PM »
Smells like a scam.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 04:01:56 PM »
And?

I wonder if this was carbon dated?  And if so does the term "Wife" mean the same then as if does now.  I remember Jesus' "brothers" but we also know that "brothers" had many conotations such as close relatives , step children, close friends, etc.

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 04:13:01 PM »
In the gospels doesn't Jesus actually refer to His wife, or "bride", as the Church and himself as the bridegroom?

Offline WeldeMikael

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2012, 04:17:26 PM »
Maybe it is like :

Matthew (KJV) 12:48-50 : "But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."


Do you think it's relevant ?

Offline Father Peter

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2012, 04:29:33 PM »
Without knowing a great deal more about this scrap it is not relevant.

Who wrote it, when was it written, why was it written?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 04:30:51 PM »
Oh it is just the 4th century version of Innocence of Muslims.

Just look at the poor production value involved . . .
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 05:02:54 PM »
Without knowing a great deal more about this scrap it is not relevant.

Who wrote it, when was it written, why was it written?

Precisely. There is no question that (a) Orthodox Christianity was predominant but that (b) there were heresies as well. See The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity by Andreas J. Kostenberger, Michael J. Kruger and I. Howard Marshall (2010).

Offline Jetavan

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 05:32:59 PM »
Quote
King gave an interview and showed the papyrus fragment, encased in glass, to reporters from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and Harvard Magazine in her garret office in the tower at Harvard Divinity School last Thursday. She left the next day for Rome to deliver her paper on the find on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies.

She repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said.

But the discovery is exciting, King said, because it is the first known statement from antiquity that refers to Jesus speaking of a wife. It provides further evidence that there was an active discussion among early Christians about whether Jesus was celibate or married, and which path his followers should choose.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 08:07:20 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/jesus-had-wife-newly-discovered-gospel-suggests-202727064.html

It was announced today that it was being studied since last year and it has been declared authentic today. However it is cut short where it says that he had a wife, so it is ambiguous at best.
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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 08:17:36 PM »
I feel a merge coming on...  8)
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Offline Punch

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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 09:04:59 PM »
Blasphemy
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 09:22:01 PM »
Who declared it 'authentic'? The Church? And if not the Church, then what does calling it 'authentic' even mean? Probably just "really, really old", which, yeah okay fine, but who really cares? Lots of writings are really old. It doesn't make them true.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 09:30:42 PM »
A piece of ancient garbage says a guy named Jesus said something that had the word "wife" in it.

Come back when you have something interesting.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 09:38:57 PM »
People say silly things all the time, but they don't make it on the news.  I have a feeling the Apostles would have known in Jesus was married.  If they didn't, the Theotokos would have known for sure.

BTW - how did it get categorized as a gospel anyway?

Sounds gnostic to me.

"Was Jesus married? "
No

"If so, was Mary Magdalene his wife? "
No

"And did he have a female disciple?"
Billions of them.  I thought these guys were supposed to be smart.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 09:45:57 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Maria

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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 09:51:51 PM »
A piece of ancient garbage says a guy named Jesus said something that had the word "wife" in it.

Come back when you have something interesting.

Just because a piece of fabric is ancient, does not mean that the words inscribed are true (Orthodox).

There are lots of gnostic gospels which are very ancient, but they were never accepted into the Orthodox canon because they were not Orthodox.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 09:52:52 PM by Maria »
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Offline Aindriú

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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 09:54:36 PM »
It's from the fourth century. Unless you're Bart Erhman, you probably shouldn't consider this too hard.

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Offline Nephi

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 11:28:10 PM »
Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

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Re: Jesus had a wife, newly discovered gospel suggests
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 12:04:44 AM »
Ho hum. There's nothing new under the sun.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 12:39:01 AM »
Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.
You mean other than someone who claimed to be God in the flesh and born of a virgin succumbing to earthly desires for a woman?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:39:58 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Nephi

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 12:42:16 AM »
succumbing to earthly desires for a woman?
Lust isn't a requirement for marriage, and Christ wouldn't have committed it had he married.

Again I'm not saying Christ did marry - I'm just asking questions.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 12:47:09 AM »
succumbing to earthly desires for a woman?
Lust isn't a requirement for marriage, and Christ wouldn't have committed it had he married.

Again I'm not saying Christ did marry - I'm just asking questions.
I understand you, no problem.

Marriage was designed for companionship and procreation.  To procreate there must be a little desire for the woman.  For that, then God would lust after worldly things.  Companionship was filled by the hundreds who followed him.  Besides, why would God need a wife?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:49:54 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Nephi

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 12:52:35 AM »
Marriage was designed for companionship and procreation.  To procreate their must be a little desire for the woman.  For that, then God would list after worldly things.
But wouldn't that mean that marriage was designed for lust, or to contain lust? If it was designed to have lust, then it was designed to further sin. If that's the case, then marriage is antithetical to the Christian life, right? Since that can't be the case, then it would seem to be fine that Christ could've participated in it without lust.

Quote
Besides, why would God need a wife?
To assume marriage in order to heal it? I'm not sure, but the idea that everything of ours was assumed/healed by Christ does seem to leave out marriage (but correct me if I'm wrong).
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:53:30 AM by Nephi »

Offline Kerdy

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 04:16:44 AM »
Marriage was designed for companionship and procreation.  To procreate their must be a little desire for the woman.  For that, then God would list after worldly things.
But wouldn't that mean that marriage was designed for lust, or to contain lust? If it was designed to have lust, then it was designed to further sin. If that's the case, then marriage is antithetical to the Christian life, right? Since that can't be the case, then it would seem to be fine that Christ could've participated in it without lust.

Quote
Besides, why would God need a wife?
To assume marriage in order to heal it? I'm not sure, but the idea that everything of ours was assumed/healed by Christ does seem to leave out marriage (but correct me if I'm wrong).

I have far too much to reply with than I can type on my phone so I will simply say I don't agree with your assessment of marriage.  I can understand your view but I thinks it's a little off.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 06:20:26 AM »
I feel another Special on History International coming soon - along with their usual reliability issues.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2012, 06:27:08 AM »
As I mentioned before to someone. Just because something is old, does not mean it is accurate. Marcion's "gospel" is pretty darn old also. It'll just give fuel to the fire of the Dan Brown types, and the Jesus haters. It'll also be another "eye roller" to Christians.

On a note, the Dr. being quoted (Dr. King) has some pretty odd things to say about 2nd century Christian issues. Look her up. Its pretty funny.

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« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 06:27:49 AM by primuspilus »
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2012, 06:58:06 AM »
It's a snippet, right? Not the whole text. I guess the "wife" probably was a metaphor for the Church?

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2012, 07:46:42 AM »
It's almost certainly real, and it's certainly Gnostic if it is real.

Offline Punch

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2012, 09:47:56 AM »
Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Nephi

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2012, 09:55:08 AM »
Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

I hadn't considered that. Good point.

Offline vamrat

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2012, 10:03:19 AM »
Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.
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Offline Punch

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2012, 10:10:17 AM »
Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.  I think about this often, and weep.  I often hate humanity because I cannot comprehend God's Love.  My small mind and tarnished soul lacks the ability to comprehend such a wonder.  It can only feel part of the pain that He must feel when He looks down upon us.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Ashman618

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2012, 12:07:57 PM »
Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.  I think about this often, and weep.  I often hate humanity because I cannot comprehend God's Love.  My small mind and tarnished soul lacks the ability to comprehend such a wonder.  It can only feel part of the pain that He must feel when He looks down upon us.

Yes I'm glad to see someone else who thinks that Christs suffering humanity did not end on the cross but continues when he looks at His Church :(

Offline augustin717

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2012, 12:28:33 PM »
It's a promising step towards establishing more solidly conservative credentials for our Lord's public image; we are now waiting on the discovery of  papyri of Jesus' investments in Bain Capital.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:41:37 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2012, 12:32:58 PM »
Jesus being God, how could He have a wife?  Would their children be demi-gods?  People these days will believe anything.  So much for being a more advanced society.    ???
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2012, 12:38:45 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Christ already has a wife, it is the Church who is also the Bride of Christ. It is not a coincidence that the Divine Liturgy is used to celebrate marriages, because through the imagery of Revelations we come to understand that the Liturgy and Holy Communion also signifies through ritual practice our marriage with Christ, having been joined to His Body as one.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2012, 12:42:02 PM »
It's a promising step towards establishing more solidly conservative credentials for our Lord's public image; we are now waiting on the discovery of  papyri of Jesus' investments in Bain Capital.

Brilliant.
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2012, 02:00:25 PM »
It's a snippet, right? Not the whole text. I guess the "wife" probably was a metaphor for the Church?
Did the early Christians ever describe the Church as "wife", rather than "bride"?
If you will, you can become all flame.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2012, 02:04:28 PM »
Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.

Pardon me? Am I reading you correctly...did you just use that word with reference to the Church?  ???

Boy, with friends like these, eh... :(

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2012, 02:14:21 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savor Jesus Christ!

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.

Pardon me? Am I reading you correctly...did you just use that word with reference to the Church?  ???

Boy, with friends like these, eh... :(

Considering the allusions to prostitution and fornication that saturate the imagery and symbolism of the Prophets, and even some of the Epistles and especially the Revelations warning to the Seven Churches, I would suppose that is quite an apt and insightful comparison fully in compatibility with the feel of the Scriptures. Perhaps it could have had a more tasteful delivery, but the premise of the analogy seems sound to me ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2012, 02:21:15 PM »
Well that's why I asked if I was understanding Punch correctly, because it strikes me as distasteful but could have a reasonable explanation...

Offline orthonorm

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2012, 02:36:09 PM »
Well that's why I asked if I was understanding Punch correctly, because it strikes me as distasteful but could have a reasonable explanation...

Hey, I've heard others with more notoriety, if less notorious, than our dear Punch refer to the Church as a whore.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2012, 02:48:53 PM »
Neoplatonic Christians loved to write Jesus fanfics. Normally these fanfics turned one of the Apostles into a Mary Sue character. Mary Sues, by definition, must be the lead's love interest. Because it is not canon to ship Jesus with a man, they had to either do it very vaguely ("Gnostic" lost Gospel of Mark) or use the hippest woman (Mary Magdalene). The expansion pack to the Gospel of Thomas features Mary Sue-gdalene as one of the first women allowed to become a living Spirit by transforming herself into a man. They would often write crossovers with other fanfics like Plato's Republic because the Hellenes wrote a great expanded universe.

The fanfic featured above in the OP really needs an editor. I charge 20$ per hour, plus Moroccan iced teas.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού