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Author Topic: A Faded Piece of Papyrus Refers to Jesus’ Wife  (Read 3242 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 18, 2012, 03:39:32 PM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html?_r=1

Translated legible text
“not [to] me. My mother gave to me li[fe]”“The disciples said to Jesus”“deny. Mary is worthy
of it”“Jesus said to them,
“My wife”“she will be able to
be my disciple”“Let wicked people
swell up”“As for me, I dwell with her in order to”“an image

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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 03:45:39 PM »

And?
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 03:47:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 03:53:29 PM »

Smells like a scam.
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 04:01:56 PM »

And?

I wonder if this was carbon dated?  And if so does the term "Wife" mean the same then as if does now.  I remember Jesus' "brothers" but we also know that "brothers" had many conotations such as close relatives , step children, close friends, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 04:13:01 PM »

In the gospels doesn't Jesus actually refer to His wife, or "bride", as the Church and himself as the bridegroom?
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2012, 04:17:26 PM »

Maybe it is like :

Matthew (KJV) 12:48-50 : "But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."


Do you think it's relevant ?
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2012, 04:29:33 PM »

Without knowing a great deal more about this scrap it is not relevant.

Who wrote it, when was it written, why was it written?
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2012, 04:30:51 PM »

Oh it is just the 4th century version of Innocence of Muslims.

Just look at the poor production value involved . . .
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 05:02:54 PM »

Without knowing a great deal more about this scrap it is not relevant.

Who wrote it, when was it written, why was it written?

Precisely. There is no question that (a) Orthodox Christianity was predominant but that (b) there were heresies as well. See The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity by Andreas J. Kostenberger, Michael J. Kruger and I. Howard Marshall (2010).
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 05:32:59 PM »

Quote
King gave an interview and showed the papyrus fragment, encased in glass, to reporters from The New York Times, The Boston Globe and Harvard Magazine in her garret office in the tower at Harvard Divinity School last Thursday. She left the next day for Rome to deliver her paper on the find on Tuesday at the International Congress of Coptic Studies.

She repeatedly cautioned that this fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus, the historical person, was actually married. The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature is silent on the question, she said.

But the discovery is exciting, King said, because it is the first known statement from antiquity that refers to Jesus speaking of a wife. It provides further evidence that there was an active discussion among early Christians about whether Jesus was celibate or married, and which path his followers should choose.
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 08:07:20 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/jesus-had-wife-newly-discovered-gospel-suggests-202727064.html

It was announced today that it was being studied since last year and it has been declared authentic today. However it is cut short where it says that he had a wife, so it is ambiguous at best.
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 08:17:36 PM »

I feel a merge coming on...  Cool
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2012, 09:04:59 PM »

Blasphemy
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2012, 09:22:01 PM »

Who declared it 'authentic'? The Church? And if not the Church, then what does calling it 'authentic' even mean? Probably just "really, really old", which, yeah okay fine, but who really cares? Lots of writings are really old. It doesn't make them true.
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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2012, 09:30:42 PM »

A piece of ancient garbage says a guy named Jesus said something that had the word "wife" in it.

Come back when you have something interesting.
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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2012, 09:38:57 PM »

People say silly things all the time, but they don't make it on the news.  I have a feeling the Apostles would have known in Jesus was married.  If they didn't, the Theotokos would have known for sure.

BTW - how did it get categorized as a gospel anyway?

Sounds gnostic to me.

"Was Jesus married? "
No

"If so, was Mary Magdalene his wife? "
No

"And did he have a female disciple?"
Billions of them.  I thought these guys were supposed to be smart.
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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2012, 09:51:51 PM »

A piece of ancient garbage says a guy named Jesus said something that had the word "wife" in it.

Come back when you have something interesting.

Just because a piece of fabric is ancient, does not mean that the words inscribed are true (Orthodox).

There are lots of gnostic gospels which are very ancient, but they were never accepted into the Orthodox canon because they were not Orthodox.
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« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 09:54:36 PM »

It's from the fourth century. Unless you're Bart Erhman, you probably shouldn't consider this too hard.
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 11:28:10 PM »

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 12:04:44 AM »

Ho hum. There's nothing new under the sun.
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 12:39:01 AM »

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.
You mean other than someone who claimed to be God in the flesh and born of a virgin succumbing to earthly desires for a woman?
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 12:42:16 AM »

succumbing to earthly desires for a woman?
Lust isn't a requirement for marriage, and Christ wouldn't have committed it had he married.

Again I'm not saying Christ did marry - I'm just asking questions.
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 12:47:09 AM »

succumbing to earthly desires for a woman?
Lust isn't a requirement for marriage, and Christ wouldn't have committed it had he married.

Again I'm not saying Christ did marry - I'm just asking questions.
I understand you, no problem.

Marriage was designed for companionship and procreation.  To procreate there must be a little desire for the woman.  For that, then God would lust after worldly things.  Companionship was filled by the hundreds who followed him.  Besides, why would God need a wife?
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 12:52:35 AM »

Marriage was designed for companionship and procreation.  To procreate their must be a little desire for the woman.  For that, then God would list after worldly things.
But wouldn't that mean that marriage was designed for lust, or to contain lust? If it was designed to have lust, then it was designed to further sin. If that's the case, then marriage is antithetical to the Christian life, right? Since that can't be the case, then it would seem to be fine that Christ could've participated in it without lust.

Quote
Besides, why would God need a wife?
To assume marriage in order to heal it? I'm not sure, but the idea that everything of ours was assumed/healed by Christ does seem to leave out marriage (but correct me if I'm wrong).
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2012, 04:16:44 AM »

Marriage was designed for companionship and procreation.  To procreate their must be a little desire for the woman.  For that, then God would list after worldly things.
But wouldn't that mean that marriage was designed for lust, or to contain lust? If it was designed to have lust, then it was designed to further sin. If that's the case, then marriage is antithetical to the Christian life, right? Since that can't be the case, then it would seem to be fine that Christ could've participated in it without lust.

Quote
Besides, why would God need a wife?
To assume marriage in order to heal it? I'm not sure, but the idea that everything of ours was assumed/healed by Christ does seem to leave out marriage (but correct me if I'm wrong).

I have far too much to reply with than I can type on my phone so I will simply say I don't agree with your assessment of marriage.  I can understand your view but I thinks it's a little off.
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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2012, 06:20:26 AM »

I feel another Special on History International coming soon - along with their usual reliability issues.
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2012, 06:27:08 AM »

As I mentioned before to someone. Just because something is old, does not mean it is accurate. Marcion's "gospel" is pretty darn old also. It'll just give fuel to the fire of the Dan Brown types, and the Jesus haters. It'll also be another "eye roller" to Christians.

On a note, the Dr. being quoted (Dr. King) has some pretty odd things to say about 2nd century Christian issues. Look her up. Its pretty funny.

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« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2012, 06:58:06 AM »

It's a snippet, right? Not the whole text. I guess the "wife" probably was a metaphor for the Church?
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« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2012, 07:46:42 AM »

It's almost certainly real, and it's certainly Gnostic if it is real.
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« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2012, 09:47:56 AM »

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.
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« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2012, 09:55:08 AM »

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

I hadn't considered that. Good point.
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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2012, 10:03:19 AM »

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.
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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2012, 10:10:17 AM »

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.  I think about this often, and weep.  I often hate humanity because I cannot comprehend God's Love.  My small mind and tarnished soul lacks the ability to comprehend such a wonder.  It can only feel part of the pain that He must feel when He looks down upon us.
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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2012, 12:07:57 PM »

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.  I think about this often, and weep.  I often hate humanity because I cannot comprehend God's Love.  My small mind and tarnished soul lacks the ability to comprehend such a wonder.  It can only feel part of the pain that He must feel when He looks down upon us.

Yes I'm glad to see someone else who thinks that Christs suffering humanity did not end on the cross but continues when he looks at His Church Sad
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2012, 12:28:33 PM »

It's a promising step towards establishing more solidly conservative credentials for our Lord's public image; we are now waiting on the discovery of  papyri of Jesus' investments in Bain Capital.
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2012, 12:32:58 PM »

Jesus being God, how could He have a wife?  Would their children be demi-gods?  People these days will believe anything.  So much for being a more advanced society.    Huh
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2012, 12:38:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Christ already has a wife, it is the Church who is also the Bride of Christ. It is not a coincidence that the Divine Liturgy is used to celebrate marriages, because through the imagery of Revelations we come to understand that the Liturgy and Holy Communion also signifies through ritual practice our marriage with Christ, having been joined to His Body as one.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2012, 12:42:02 PM »

It's a promising step towards establishing more solidly conservative credentials for our Lord's public image; we are now waiting on the discovery of  papyri of Jesus' investments in Bain Capital.

Brilliant.
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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2012, 02:00:25 PM »

It's a snippet, right? Not the whole text. I guess the "wife" probably was a metaphor for the Church?
Did the early Christians ever describe the Church as "wife", rather than "bride"?
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« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2012, 02:04:28 PM »

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.

Pardon me? Am I reading you correctly...did you just use that word with reference to the Church?  Huh

Boy, with friends like these, eh... Sad
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« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2012, 02:14:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savor Jesus Christ!

Apart from obviously defying and ignoring Tradition, is there a theological problem with the idea of Christ having a wife? I've tried to think of one, but maybe someone else knows of any problems it causes.

Yes, because the entire Church is the Bride of Christ, and the Church is One.  Christ was not a bigamist.

The Church is the bride of Christ.

What a fitting metaphor.

Yes.  He probably remained celibate here on Earth because He knew what kind of a whore He would marry afterward.

Pardon me? Am I reading you correctly...did you just use that word with reference to the Church?  Huh

Boy, with friends like these, eh... Sad

Considering the allusions to prostitution and fornication that saturate the imagery and symbolism of the Prophets, and even some of the Epistles and especially the Revelations warning to the Seven Churches, I would suppose that is quite an apt and insightful comparison fully in compatibility with the feel of the Scriptures. Perhaps it could have had a more tasteful delivery, but the premise of the analogy seems sound to me Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2012, 02:21:15 PM »

Well that's why I asked if I was understanding Punch correctly, because it strikes me as distasteful but could have a reasonable explanation...
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« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2012, 02:36:09 PM »

Well that's why I asked if I was understanding Punch correctly, because it strikes me as distasteful but could have a reasonable explanation...

Hey, I've heard others with more notoriety, if less notorious, than our dear Punch refer to the Church as a whore.
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« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2012, 02:48:53 PM »

Neoplatonic Christians loved to write Jesus fanfics. Normally these fanfics turned one of the Apostles into a Mary Sue character. Mary Sues, by definition, must be the lead's love interest. Because it is not canon to ship Jesus with a man, they had to either do it very vaguely ("Gnostic" lost Gospel of Mark) or use the hippest woman (Mary Magdalene). The expansion pack to the Gospel of Thomas features Mary Sue-gdalene as one of the first women allowed to become a living Spirit by transforming herself into a man. They would often write crossovers with other fanfics like Plato's Republic because the Hellenes wrote a great expanded universe.

The fanfic featured above in the OP really needs an editor. I charge 20$ per hour, plus Moroccan iced teas.
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« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2012, 03:23:56 PM »

This article from MSNBC.Com may be of interest:  http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/18/13945001-reality-check-on-jesus-and-his-wife?lite
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« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2012, 03:34:01 PM »

I doubt that this is true. No woman would marry a man who was always right.
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« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2012, 03:54:33 PM »

Dr. King's forthcoming article on the fragment addresses some of the issues raised about the fragment: http://news.hds.harvard.edu/files/King_JesusSaidToThem_draft_0917.pdf
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« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2012, 04:33:31 PM »

Just wait until James Cameron gets involved!
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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2012, 04:35:36 PM »

I doubt that this is true. No woman would marry a man who was always right.

Stealing this. Sorry.
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« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2012, 04:38:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I doubt that this is true. No woman would marry a man who was always right.

Stealing this. Sorry.

Best to give his spouse the real credit then eh? Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2012, 04:59:31 PM »

Well that's why I asked if I was understanding Punch correctly, because it strikes me as distasteful but could have a reasonable explanation...

Habte explained my position quite well.  Consider the concept of apostasy.  One cannot apostatize if they were never part of "the Bride of Christ".  Yet the Scriptures tell us that there will be a great apostasy.  Christ Himself even asked if He would find Faith.  Are there any of us here that have not committed adultery against our Bridegroom when we give in to the seduction of the Devil?
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« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2012, 07:30:57 PM »

Who declared it 'authentic'? The Church? And if not the Church, then what does calling it 'authentic' even mean? Probably just "really, really old", which, yeah okay fine, but who really cares? Lots of writings are really old. It doesn't make them true.

The whole topic is ridiculous, for even those monks, who reached a higher plane of human existence, have been able to free themselves of all physical desires, so how can one say that God was not free?  That those outside of Christianity should even consider it a topic of discussion, only shows their ignorance of Christianity.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2012, 08:45:21 PM »

I doubt that this is true. No woman would marry a man who was always right.

They just deny he was right , like always. Grin

I found it does me no good being right. Wink
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« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2012, 09:50:12 PM »

Just wait until James Cameron gets involved!

I was hoping for Geraldo Rivera, but I guess that works too.
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« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2012, 12:43:02 AM »

Jesus speaks about the church being his bride... Hmm, I wonder what this could mean?
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« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2012, 12:57:45 AM »

Jesus speaks about the church being his bride... Hmm, I wonder what this could mean?
It turns out that Mary Magdalene's middle name was "Ecclesia".  Grin
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« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2012, 07:32:49 AM »

"His Eminence Metropolitan Methodios is grateful to the Reverend Dr. Theodore Stylianopoulos for responding to recent media reports concerning a 4th century Coptic text. Father Stylianopoulos is Professor Emeritus of New Testament at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology."

To read the statement from Fr Ted, go here: http://www.boston.goarch.org/news/metropolis_news/2012/1000.html
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« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2012, 06:55:42 PM »

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/21/my-take-i-dont-know-if-jesus-was-married-and-i-dont-care/?hpt=hp_t3

The above commentators words probably seem ridiculous to most of us but sadly probably resonate with most of the people who will read it.
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« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2012, 03:30:36 PM »

I remember reading one author assert that since Jesus was at the Marriage at Cana around the age that Jewish teenagers of that era were usually wed, this was proof that He was married.

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« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2012, 03:52:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I remember reading one author assert that since Jesus was at the Marriage at Cana around the age that Jewish teenagers of that era were usually wed, this was proof that He was married.





All the more instances as to why I strongly suggest that the Bible come with a Spiritual Parental Advisory Warning to warn folks not to read the Bible without the assistance of their spiritual fathers, and if they have none, then firsts things first, get one!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2012, 08:59:02 PM »

Today the new york times reported the Vatican is calling it a fake.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html
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« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2012, 07:29:34 PM »

Documentary on Smithsonian channel postponed amid doubts of authenticity. More tests are being done.

http://news.yahoo.com/doc-papyrus-fragment-purporting-jesus-had-wife-delayed-214312152.html
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« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2012, 06:07:24 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiUZ2qy90_I
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« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2012, 08:22:09 PM »

Today the new york times reported the Vatican is calling it a fake.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html

Of course they would. DaVinci Code and all that. Remember all those popes of the early centuries sending out squadrons of monks with axes to suppress the truth in between getting martyred?
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« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2012, 07:19:16 PM »


I am informed that I violated a rule by posting this link alone. I hereby rectify that situation by posting the video description:

"The Christian world is reeling from the discovery of an ancient document suggesting that Jesus was married. And by "reeling from" I mean "not in the slightest bit affected by." Here's why."
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