I am Godless

[JamesR]

How am I supposed to interpret the book of Job? I read it like a month ago and I felt really disappointed. We spend pages and pages reading of this man's tribulation caused by God, and in the very end when we finally expect to get an answer, it is just one lousy paragraph where God does not even answer any of Job's questions.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How am I supposed to interpret the book of Job? I read it like a month ago and I felt really disappointed. We spend pages and pages reading of this man's tribulation caused by God, and in the very end when we finally expect to get an answer, it is just one lousy paragraph where God does not even answer any of Job's questions.

Have you ever listened to a really sad or angry song that actually helped you vent and express your feelings and in a weird way feel better? That is how I feel about listening to Radiohead or Tool, the music can seem depressing to some folks, but for me, it has the exact opposite effect, it becomes a vehicle to help me understand and make sense of my feelings through this new language of music.  Literature, be it Shakespeare or the Bible, is the same thing my young brother.  We read books and novels and the Bible to help give us symbolic and metaphorical tools to better understand and express ourselves.  It becomes a new spiritual vocabulary. In regards to the more depressing books of the Bible such as Job or parts of the Psalter, these somber books are meant to give us a tool to understand these darker moments of life.  They way they "cheer us up" is a bit more subtle but all the more effective.

In regards to Job specifically, there are a lot of examples of what to do, and what not do in life.  Even Job's friends have much wisdom to say, however their timing and approach was all wrong.  Further sometimes Job's outbursts were crass and immature, but we also learn to make sense of our more selfish side through seeing it work out in the character or Job in the literary sense.  There are also commentaries by some Fathers to help us understand these things as well.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[stavros_388]

You guys got me. quitmorning's last post really spoke to me. I guess I will at least try to come back to the faith and heal myself. But the fact remains that I still have so many questions. Everyone just keeps telling me how to deal with suffering and while it is all good advice, my scholastic side is still demaning an answer as to why God allows it in the first place. I'm afraid I cannot get myself to follow any of that advice until I know the answer because my entire perception of whp God is is based on what that answer will be.

What comes after anger? I do not know. Where do I go from here? I'm scared of God now that I cursed Him and I feel like if I prayed to Him I would just be lying to Him and to myself because I would not really feel it or care. And unfortunately I committed a great sin by Communing last Sunday in this state because I thought that maybe it would 'motivate me to find righteousness'.

Hi, James. I am very happy to hear that you are still wrestling with God. I am a lot older than you and I still have days where I "hate God" and blame Him for injustice and suffering. Yet every time we turn away, He remains, constant, like the father of the prodigal son. Just over a year ago, I cursed God and ripped a bible to shreds when my mom was dying of cancer. I've also communed in an unworthy state before, hoping it would give me my back. God is merciful. We can turn away, run, rebel, lash out, whatever, but God is unchanging. He is love. My advice: don't think so much. The mind gets in knots over questions that can only be answered by a heart that has surrendered to God.

[Kerdy]

How am I supposed to interpret the book of Job? I read it like a month ago and I felt really disappointed. We spend pages and pages reading of this man's tribulation caused by God, and in the very end when we finally expect to get an answer, it is just one lousy paragraph where God does not even answer any of Job's questions.

I have a feeling you missed the entire point of the story.  

[Nicene]

I Still don't understand why you deserve better.

[orthonorm]

Now can we all let James go back to posting his different thoughts whether they be about Job or whathaveyou in other threads?

This thread seems to have been exhausted as regards to the OP, thankfully.

Drudging back up comment x, y, or z seems to be academic at best at this point and harmful at worst.

A moderate suggestion.

[Green_Umbrella]

How am I supposed to interpret the book of Job? I read it like a month ago and I felt really disappointed. We spend pages and pages reading of this man's tribulation caused by God, and in the very end when we finally expect to get an answer, it is just one lousy paragraph where God does not even answer any of Job's questions.

Jobs tribulation was not caused by God. Satan came to God. God did not go to Satan.  With the permission of God, Job was tried by Satan.  

Anyways. God gave the answer. You just did not like it so you look for another. God is sovereign. He is the highest king. He does and allows what he wills. He answers to no one. He is not interested in our opinions.  

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand."  Deuteronomy 32:39

"All the people of the earth are nothing compared to him. He does as he pleases among the angels of heaven and among the people of the earth. No one can stop him or say to him, ‘What do you mean by doing these things?’" Daniel 4:35

The situation is made clear over and over in the bible. This is God. No democracy. No committees. He is not a personal new age guru to make people feel good. This is a kingdom and God is the king. If a person is angry at God because of suffering and stops worship for him they missed the whole thing from the start. We do not worship God for what we can get out of him. We do not worship God because we are rich or poor. Healthy or sick. Sad or happy. We worship God because we recognize the sovereignty of God and submit ourselves to it.

Now this is not popular in the cultures of entitlements and  "me me me" society. It is in complete contrary to it and a whole lot people do not like it. That is too hard. That is not fair. But it does not matter. That is the way it is. God is sovereign. God is just. You are not. That is how you interpret the book of Job.

My opinion.

[Green_Umbrella]

double post

[Ashman618]

Bless the Lord o' your soul James ,  with regards to your question about suffering I don't think anyone can truly satisfy your question except Christ but for what its worth, God did create an entire race a beings who didn't suffer pain or loss or disaster, but that didn't seem to work out either

[Cantor Krishnich]

I am in totally shock after having read what I've just read. Everyone else has already said what I would have. I wont insult you but I pray for you and for all of those who have strayed away from the faith that you will come to repentance. The once zealous James has now shaken hands with the evil one. I've seen this case alot. I just want to say that you do appear to be very immature. May God Have Mercy Upon Us All! Most Holy Theotokos Save Us!
  

[DavidH]

The point of Job is simple (whether it is satisfying for those of us in distress or not): God gives us our blessings, God may take them away- bless Him either way. If we lose it all we WILL get it (or better) back in this life or later if we remain faithful so... stay the course.

In other words, it's SO black AND white, it's grey.

[Shiny]

My Job comment wasn't directed to James at all, just saying.

[OrthoNoob]

I am in totally shock after having read what I've just read. Everyone else has already said what I would have. I wont insult you but I pray for you and for all of those who have strayed away from the faith that you will come to repentance. The once zealous James has now shaken hands with the evil one. I've seen this case alot. I just want to say that you do appear to be very immature. May God Have Mercy Upon Us All! Most Holy Theotokos Save Us!
  

Heh. Read a little further, he's back now.

[Justin Kissel]

Every time I see the title of this thread I think it says "I am Goddess" 

[Alveus Lacuna]

Every time I see the title of this thread I think it says "I am Goddess" 

I always read it "I am a Godless."

[Cantor Krishnich]

I am in totally shock after having read what I've just read. Everyone else has already said what I would have. I wont insult you but I pray for you and for all of those who have strayed away from the faith that you will come to repentance. The once zealous James has now shaken hands with the evil one. I've seen this case alot. I just want to say that you do appear to be very immature. May God Have Mercy Upon Us All! Most Holy Theotokos Save Us!
  

Heh. Read a little further, he's back now.

Oh sorry, I was just so in shock from reading James's post that I had to reply to that first.
Thank God that he is back!

[Cyrillic]

Every time I see the title of this thread I think it says "I am Goddess" 

James might be confused, but that confused....

 

[yeshuaisiam]

You guys got me. quitmorning's last post really spoke to me. I guess I will at least try to come back to the faith and heal myself. But the fact remains that I still have so many questions. Everyone just keeps telling me how to deal with suffering and while it is all good advice, my scholastic side is still demaning an answer as to why God allows it in the first place. I'm afraid I cannot get myself to follow any of that advice until I know the answer because my entire perception of whp God is is based on what that answer will be.

What comes after anger? I do not know. Where do I go from here? I'm scared of God now that I cursed Him and I feel like if I prayed to Him I would just be lying to Him and to myself because I would not really feel it or care. And unfortunately I committed a great sin by Communing last Sunday in this state because I thought that maybe it would 'motivate me to find righteousness'.

James, I'm going to give you some SOUND advice.

S-L-O-W    D-O-W-N

Quit making big decisions so quickly.  Many people here have had moments where they were angry with God.   I had a moment like that when there was a suicide in my external family.   I loved God, but hated the things he "let" happen and was angry.  Often when we are angry, we say things we don't mean.  

Also, if you are looking at pornography, stop.   It's vile, evil and wicked.  It's women who are exploited for their drug habits, often sexually abused, and often being abused in front of the camera.   This could be a vice hurting you badly and don't even know it.   I see often in your posts talking about "urges", which is what I could only assume is going on.   Every member on this forum that is male understands the struggles of lust in one way or another (if not they should check their pulse).    Many old toots like myself, did not have the internet, nor really access to pornography in our teen years.   This has to be a horrific struggle at this time of the ease of access.    The song of songs and the physical love between a husband and wife should not be tarnished with the thoughts and fantasies that watching the abuse of women will give you.   Men should be praying for these women for their souls and for God to intercede into their lives and heal their pain.   I believe the pornography problem is WIDE SPREAD and it grasps more people than we can imagine.


BUT ANYWAY, you need to deal with one issue at a time.  If you were born from fornication, that is NOT your sin.   You were born into sin just like any of us.

There is a flip side to many of your questions.... Let me give you an example.

"Why did God kill my puppy" - or - "why did God let my puppy die".
flipped
"God blessed me with a puppy for a short time" - or - "why did God create puppies".

Often its easy to focus on the glass half empty, and not even consider the half full glass before you.   Why did God even bless you with life?   Why did he bless any of us with life?   Why did he make mankind smart enough to create the internet where EO Christians can communicate across the world with one another?  Why did he make tadpoles if they are going to turn to frogs then die?   Why would he allow people to die?  Why would he make babies if they would just die when they are old?

Then you have to consider self pity, which you are doing in your post and many of us do this -   Let me give you a person example of myself
Why did God let my relative commit suicide?
Why did God let my brother abort several of my nieces or nephews?  (I guess God didn't restrict him and he did what he wanted as Satan let him)
Why did God allow a 19 year old that I know be killed in a car accident 2 weeks ago?
Why does God not just swoop down and stop all abortions?
Why did God let my cousin cheat on his wife when they had a nice family?
Why does God restrict me from lusting after women when I have a wife and children?  (At least Satan offers me to do it!)

I know you understand this.  You need to SLOW DOWN, stop, and smell the roses.   Look at your blessings.  If you struggle with porn, you need to "pluck it out" NOW, because I'm seeing a lot of youth fall into that dangerous cycle.  It's really screwing them up.

God Bless.

[Cantor Krishnich]

JamesR, I know what you are going through, I'm also a teenager. I hope I can help a little.

Before my conversion to Orthodoxy, one of the things that I struggled with was not wanting to do what God wanted and at one point I did exactly what you did (only I was much younger). Later, during my Catechumenate stage in the Orthodox Church, I learned that this was temptation from the Devil. Sometimes, our knowledge and our youthful naivety can make us do crazy things and get us in alot of trouble. Sometimes, we dont understand God; we should know that we can never fully understand or have as much knowledge as God upon whom the ranks of the angels dare not gaze.

There are many times that I have wanted to throw in the towel/give up and stop working on the many specific sins that I struggle with. You know know what Im talking about, those times when you just want to live your life and stop worrying so much. That is temptation from the evil one. I found out that no matter how many times you give up on yourself or on God, he will NEVER give up on you. If I feel discouraged, I read the lives of the saints (many of them where my age or even younger). Many of the saints were teenage martyrs, who were willing to die for God and for His Holy Church in the face of all kinds of horrible things. I also read the writings of some of the Ascetical Fathers of the Church (Isaak the Syrian, Anthony the Great, Mark the Ascetic, Seraphim of Sarov, and many others...). St. Anthony the Great struggled with many sins similar to what you describe, but in the end he conquered his sins and reached a stage where he sent arrows fighting the demons. I also advise you to read to Book of the Prophet Jonah and the Story of the Prophet Abraham.   

Our God is all-merciful and no matter how many times you sin, he will always forgive you of these sins if you sincerely repent. Even if you continue to repeat this sin, you must continue to repent of this sin and work harder to free yourself from the passions. Even if you spend your entire life struggling in repentance, God will reward you because he saw that you did not give into the temptation to stop fighting or did not surrender yourself to the passions. Our entire life is a struggle, in the end we should want God to be pleased with our struggle.

God is not "a deadbeat father" (Lord Have Mercy), He looks after us by giving us the gifts of the Holy Church. One of the amazing things about the Orthodox Church is that it expects you to be better and tries hard to help you become better and ultimately to reach Theosis (Lord Have Mercy). We know that holy communion is the body and blood of Christ, the essence of God. We should all crave this, to be in communion with God. If we sin, we know that we cant receive Holy Communion until we go to confession and repent. This is one example of how God uses the Holy Church to help us reach him. He will look after his people Israel (the Holy Church, his children). He sent the Christ to us as the Messiah/Savior because he loved(s) us that much. We can not be lazy, we also have to do our part to reach Him.

May God Have Mercy Upon Us All!             

[Timon]

Found this quote from Chrysostom.  Thought it might be relevant.

… But, you say, you cannot keep silent when you are pricked by distress. I certainly do not forbid you to make a sound, but give thanks instead of blasphemy, worship instead of despair. Confess to the Lord, cry out loudly in prayer, cry out loudly glorifying God. In this way your suffering will be lightened, because the devil will pull back from your thanksgiving and God’s help will be at your side. If you blaspheme, you have driven away God’s assistance, made the devil more vehement against you, and involved yourself even more in suffering; but if you give thanks, you have driven away the plots of the evil demon, and you have drown the care of God your protector to yourself.

- St. John Chrysostom

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Everything else from this day forward has been split into a new topic "Green Umbrella vs. Cyrillic" at the link below. Please do try to keep on topic. Thanks, Carl Kraeff

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47283.msg812992.html#msg812992

[Babalon]

James, I don't see why the opposite of Christianity is "hating God". I don't even understand the idea of "hating God." 

I wish you the best of luck on your journey, but if i can of offer any advice it would be to check that Ego at the door. No matter what path you walk down, Ego coupled with anger and resentment is going to get you in quite a bit of trouble.

Cheers.

[Cyrillic]

I know you're back on the good side, but I had something to say about a thing you mentioned in the OP.

God is omnipotent yet He lets us suffer miserably. Lucifer is not omnipotent and therefore cannot stop our suffering, but at least to the very best of his ability he tries to urge us to liberate ourselves from God. He represents true freedom and tolerance.

St. Augustine, your patron saint once said  "For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil."

This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good. God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifixion into something good. Now there's little arguing with the omniscience of God.

[Jetavan]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

[Cyrillic]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

 

It's already late at night here. I need to catch some sleep. Staying up late doesn't do my english any good. Luckily I could still edit my post.

[Babalon]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

[Severian]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

[William]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

We already did this, Sev.

[Severian]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

We already did this, Sev.

Yah... It's a shame that some are so unwilling to listen.

[Shiny]

That brings up a good subject though. How many rabbis during Christ's time tried to be the messiah?

[Severian]

That brings up a good subject though. How many rabbis during Christ's time tried to be the messiah?

I think JP Holding (of Tektonics.org) mentioned that it was not as many as fundy Atheists like to purport. I'll try to find a reference...

[Shiny]

That brings up a good subject though. How many rabbis during Christ's time tried to be the messiah?

I think JP Holding (of Tektonics.org) mentioned that it was not as many as fundy Atheists like to purport. I'll try to find a reference...

I actually like JP Holding alot. Him and kingdavid8.com debunk alot of the garbage atheists purport to be true, like the copy-cat theory junk.

I know a few friends who are trying to convert Holding to Orthodoxy, and he's finally hit that hump to accept the Orthodox are Christians.

His apologetics would be 100 times better if he was Orthodox.

[neon_knights]

That brings up a good subject though. How many rabbis during Christ's time tried to be the messiah?

I think JP Holding (of Tektonics.org) mentioned that it was not as many as fundy Atheists like to purport. I'll try to find a reference...

I actually like JP Holding alot. Him and kingdavid8.com debunk alot of the garbage atheists purport to be true, like the copy-cat theory junk.

I know a few friends who are trying to convert Holding to Orthodoxy, and he's finally hit that hump to accept the Orthodox are Christians.

His apologetics would be 100 times better if he was Orthodox.

Tektonics has some very good things to say about Orthodoxy on their site.

[Seraphim98]

Dear James,

Read Job more carefully. You say he didn't get an answer. He did, just not quite what he was looking for.  Notice Job, like a true prophet, knows what God will do if questioned closely on why he (Job) had to suffer so much….basically,'I know what you will say…you just plan to terrify me with how great and powerful You are…but I'm going to ask anyway.  And what does God do…He terrifies Job with how great and powerful He is "Where were you when the foundations of the deep were laid? etc." Job understood and God drove home the message, some things are out of your league and way above your pay grade. Which while not very satisfying at a personal level is never the less true.  But that wasn't the end of it….notice how Job reacts to God's lecture.  Look at what Job says. "I'v heard of thee by the hearing of the ear, but now I see thee and I repent myself in dust and ashes." He continues, "Now I know that my Redeemer liveth and I shall see Him in my flesh."

Do you catch that…God's answer, in the end was not information or justification, but Himself. Job got to see his humanity…as holy and blameless as God said he was, still he repents himself in dust and ashes. He sees the gulf between fallen humanity at its best and the uncreated super essential being of God…and in that He sees something more…the knowledge that God intends to redeem him and all mankind personally, and that all flesh will be raised again….death and despair will not triumph. 

Job's suffering while retaining his profound humility in the midst of it permitted Him to draw closer than anyone yet had been…perhaps since Enoch, if not before. God showed Himself to Job. Moses only got to see the hinder part of His glory. In the light of God's face…a living dead man for all intents and purposes understood God is not just Lord, but the Redeemer of all flesh…and the one who in Himself will bring the Resurrection.

That was the answer Job got…and through him, all mankind since. From Job on we can say with confidence, "I know my Redeemer liveth and I shall see Him in my flesh"  Consider that int he light of what the Apostles taught concerning the sight of Him. "When we see Him, we shall be like Him, for we shall behold Him face to face." 

[Babalon]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

[Severian]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

Well from the context of your earlier posts it was only reasonable to assume that the Christ myth theory was what you were referring to, being that you have espoused it before.

[Babalon]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

Well from the context of your earlier posts it was only reasonable to assume that the Christ myth theory was what you were referring to, being that you have espoused it before.

Herp derp.

I'm not entirely sure which theory you're hinting at right now and i honestly don't care.

But since you brought it up, yes. I do believe Christ is a myth. But I also believe the myth is more important than the "facts".

[Severian]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

Well from the context of your earlier posts it was only reasonable to assume that the Christ myth theory was what you were referring to, being that you have espoused it before.

Herp derp.

I'm not entirely sure which theory you're hinting at right now and i honestly don't care.

But since you brought it up, yes. I do believe Christ is a myth. But I also believe the myth is more important than the "facts".

Of course you don't care. I wouldn't expect you to. Very few Internet skeptics care about the facts of history.

And your potty talk and shallow rhetoric just goes to show the fruits of "new" Atheist cultism. You Internet "new" atheists and weak atheists (AKA agnostics) are all the same predictable bunch.

[Tikhon.of.Colorado]

James, from one young person to another, I understand what you're feeling.

I found that when I hit a certain point in my maturing, I saw the Church as something that I didn't really need anymore.  I completely understand your comments about the Orthodox Church, and conservative religious in general.

This is part of growing up, I believe.  You and I aren't adults.  We're getting there, but we're still maturing.  I've gone through an identity crisis of sorts, feeling the need to find out and express who I am (and want to be) as an individual.  

I left the Orthodox Church.  I went through a little episode of atheism (though I wasn't actually an atheist.  I believe in God, and I can only pretend not to).  

Not that this would be the right thing for you, but I've found solace in the Episcopal Church.  It has the traditions that I love, but not the gay-bashing and rolling around on the floor that I'd come to expect from Protestantism as Orthodox.  I can go to Church with my family, most of whom are from varying denominations, and we can receive communion together.  There also isn't this "we're right and everyone else is wrong" mentality in this type of Protestantism.  I mean, let's keep it real.  God is what you make of Him.  He wouldn't actually create only one true way to believe, at the exclusion of all others.  

You have to do what's right for you.  It's your life, after all.  

Don't let anyone make you feel like you're somehow worse off than you were when you were "great Orthodox kid with all this religious saintly potential".

Growing up sucks, but finding the right path (if any), and growing from different experiences really makes it worth it.

Anywhoo, I wish you luck, my friend.  If you ever wish to PM me, my inbox is open to you.

[GTAsoldier]

James,

I don't got much words for what you was saying, but I do hope and pray that you get through this tough time you're having. I often struggle with anger too. Anger against myself, others, and even God. What actually gets me past it is finding something distracting for me to do (in a good way, of course). Sometimes, I end up finding a good laugh on something on the internet, and then boom, everything I felt before was like the wind blowing away.

In addition, what especially gets me through is looking forward to the next day. As one poster here told me, "start each day anew" because everyday is like a resurrection.

You're young, bro. There are a whole lot of things in life you have yet to experience. You'll go through mountains and valleys in spiritual development. Judging from what I've read, it seems to me that you're going through a valley. But remember this: these mountains and valleys are only temporary. We ain't called to be track stars in this race called life that God has given us. Instead, we're called to keep running the race breathing on God's oxygen everyday. How far we've gone won't be realized until the very end of our days.

In the meantime, focus on the growth, and talk to God with confidence and without fear and condemnation. Have the strength to stand in front of the Christ icon and before saying a prayer, say "Lord, make me worthy to pray thankfully:....".

Lord have mercy on you, me, and all of us.

- Jade

[William]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

Well from the context of your earlier posts it was only reasonable to assume that the Christ myth theory was what you were referring to, being that you have espoused it before.

Herp derp.

I'm not entirely sure which theory you're hinting at right now and i honestly don't care.

But since you brought it up, yes. I do believe Christ is a myth. But I also believe the myth is more important than the "facts".

Of course you don't care. I wouldn't expect you to. Very few Internet skeptics care about the facts of history.

And your potty talk and shallow rhetoric just goes to show the fruits of "new" Atheist cultism. You Internet "new" atheists and weak atheists (AKA agnostics) are all the same predictable bunch.

Easy there.

[William]

James, from one young person to another, I understand what you're feeling.

I found that when I hit a certain point in my maturing, I saw the Church as something that I didn't really need anymore.  I completely understand your comments about the Orthodox Church, and conservative religious in general.

This is part of growing up, I believe.  You and I aren't adults.  We're getting there, but we're still maturing.  I've gone through an identity crisis of sorts, feeling the need to find out and express who I am (and want to be) as an individual.  

I left the Orthodox Church.  I went through a little episode of atheism (though I wasn't actually an atheist.  I believe in God, and I can only pretend not to).  

Not that this would be the right thing for you, but I've found solace in the Episcopal Church.  It has the traditions that I love, but not the gay-bashing and rolling around on the floor that I'd come to expect from Protestantism as Orthodox.  I can go to Church with my family, most of whom are from varying denominations, and we can receive communion together.  There also isn't this "we're right and everyone else is wrong" mentality in this type of Protestantism.  I mean, let's keep it real.  God is what you make of Him.  He wouldn't actually create only one true way to believe, at the exclusion of all others.  

You have to do what's right for you.  It's your life, after all.  

Don't let anyone make you feel like you're somehow worse off than you were when you were "great Orthodox kid with all this religious saintly potential".

Growing up sucks, but finding the right path (if any), and growing from different experiences really makes it worth it.

Anywhoo, I wish you luck, my friend.  If you ever wish to PM me, my inbox is open to you.

Wow this is one lame post. Glad you're "keepin' it real" and deciding what God will or won't do, homie. Agh James would scoff at this.

[LBK]

God is what you make of Him.

I see. Making God in your own image. 

[neon_knights]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

Well from the context of your earlier posts it was only reasonable to assume that the Christ myth theory was what you were referring to, being that you have espoused it before.

Herp derp.

I'm not entirely sure which theory you're hinting at right now and i honestly don't care.

But since you brought it up, yes. I do believe Christ is a myth. But I also believe the myth is more important than the "facts".

Of course you don't care. I wouldn't expect you to. Very few Internet skeptics care about the facts of history.

And your potty talk and shallow rhetoric just goes to show the fruits of "new" Atheist cultism. You Internet "new" atheists and weak atheists (AKA agnostics) are all the same predictable bunch.

Severian, Babalon is not an atheist. Babalon is a person of faith(although he doesnt necessarily share ours), and I'm almost 100 percent sure that he believes Jesus was a real person. He never denied such a fact. Saying that Christ is a "myth" is not the same thing as saying that he never existed.

[Babalon]

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

Well from the context of your earlier posts it was only reasonable to assume that the Christ myth theory was what you were referring to, being that you have espoused it before.

Herp derp.

I'm not entirely sure which theory you're hinting at right now and i honestly don't care.

But since you brought it up, yes. I do believe Christ is a myth. But I also believe the myth is more important than the "facts".

Of course you don't care. I wouldn't expect you to. Very few Internet skeptics care about the facts of history.

And your potty talk and shallow rhetoric just goes to show the fruits of "new" Atheist cultism. You Internet "new" atheists and weak atheists (AKA agnostics) are all the same predictable bunch.

You're arguing with a Ghost, brother.

I realize my input in this thread has been rather pretty unnecessary, but my moronic antics are being greatly shadowed by your own right about now. You sound like you've been saving these statements up for awhile- looking for the right non-christian to dump it on. Unfortunately, you cut some corners and were a little too specific on some of these well-thought responses of yours.. I'm not a new, old, weak or "internet" Atheist. I'm not an Atheist at all. Or if i am, i'm about as much of an Atheist as i am a Christian. Huh. How does every conversation i enter turn into a discussion about "what" or "who" I am? I'm such an attention whore! 

God was able to turn something as evil as the crucifiction into something good.

You do know that the crucifixion actually happened, right?

Oh it certainly did. Many times. 

You do know that those Jesus Copy-cat theorists are a bunch of crackpots unsupported by true scholarship, right?

Woah woah woah. First, you need to excuse yourself to the restroom and un-bunch those panties, then rejoin us.

All i was saying, was that crucifixion happened more than one time in history.   

Well from the context of your earlier posts it was only reasonable to assume that the Christ myth theory was what you were referring to, being that you have espoused it before.

Herp derp.

I'm not entirely sure which theory you're hinting at right now and i honestly don't care.

But since you brought it up, yes. I do believe Christ is a myth. But I also believe the myth is more important than the "facts".

Of course you don't care. I wouldn't expect you to. Very few Internet skeptics care about the facts of history.

And your potty talk and shallow rhetoric just goes to show the fruits of "new" Atheist cultism. You Internet "new" atheists and weak atheists (AKA agnostics) are all the same predictable bunch.

Severian, Babalon is not an atheist. Babalon is a person of faith(although he doesnt necessarily share ours), and I'm almost 100 percent sure that he believes Jesus was a real person. He never denied such a fact. Saying that Christ is a "myth" is not the same thing as saying that he never existed.

Ding ding.

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