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Author Topic: Sarah Catt jailed for full-term abortion of baby  (Read 2769 times) Average Rating: 0
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2012, 09:06:00 PM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

Are you the same person as JamesR? 

I really don't understand your point.  I didn't say that I like things the way they are, nor did I say that I would support liberalizing abortion laws.  But the fact remains, we most certainly do NOT have "unrestricted abortion" in this country.
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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2012, 09:32:03 PM »

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.
Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?
Though you are taking a rabbinical tack, I appreciate it.

This clarifies much, and - believe it or not -- helps me a great deal in my own personal struggle.
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« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2012, 08:33:49 AM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

In any one of the States that does not have such restrictions, a woman can have an abortion at any time and it would not violate the law of the United States Federal Government.

And further, her abortion would very likely be subsidized by Federal spending in some manner.
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« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2012, 09:31:35 AM »

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

If a mother wanted to remove an 'undesirable' 5 year old from her home by killing it, would you feel the same? Under your logic, she gets to choose if she should take care of it.

You lack compassion for life my friend.
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« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2012, 10:56:54 AM »

Rape is arguably the most evil thing that exists on the planet.  I would also say that abortion is one of the most evil things that exists on this planet.  Im not completely sure I'd know how to deal with the situation JamesR was talking about earlier. We're talking about one disgustingly evil act (abortion) having to happen as a result of another disgustingly evil act (rape).  Its certainly a complicated, horrific, and highly unlikely situation, especially with someone that young.  (Are all 13 yr olds even capable of pregnancy? Maybe so these days... i dunno.)

I hate when those hypothetical questions get brought up. It makes my brain want to explode.

As for the original news article, yea she should have got more than 8 years.
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« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2012, 11:05:54 AM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

In any one of the States that does not have such restrictions, a woman can have an abortion at any time and it would not violate the law of the United States Federal Government.

And further, her abortion would very likely be subsidized by Federal spending in some manner.

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.
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« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2012, 12:58:53 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Why would I want to kill an innocent child?  An injustice already happened to the daughter, why do another one?

If this unfortunate event happens, I will raise the child as my own, given the youth of the daughter.  The child is completely innocent and deserves a life.
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« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2012, 01:01:07 PM »

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

Unfortunately here in Canada it is legal.  Oh wait, that is not the right term.  It is not legal, it is just not illegal.  We have no abortion laws, thus there is nothing that says whether it is legal or not.  So a woman in labor can have an abortion and there is no law to prosecute her.
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« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2012, 02:47:05 PM »

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.
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« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2012, 08:24:12 PM »

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

I wish on OC.net we could click on any word in a post and have the definition immediately provided to us courtesy of Merriam-Webster.
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« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2012, 08:30:28 PM »

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

If a mother wanted to remove an 'undesirable' 5 year old from her home by killing it, would you feel the same? Under your logic, she gets to choose if she should take care of it.

You lack compassion for life my friend.

Compassion has nothing to do with it. It is about being firmly on the other side of the political divide to those nasty Anglo-Celts and their CEOs, &c., &c.
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« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2012, 08:38:50 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?


Yes, I would deny her an abortion. Why would I want to heap the trauma of abortion on top of everything else she suffered? Abortion is not a cure for rape, and pregnancy is not a disease. If my daughter had been violated by a rapist, the last thing I'd want would be to have her violated again by the deadly instruments of abortion.


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« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2012, 08:44:20 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?


Yes, I would deny her an abortion. Why would I want to heap the trauma of abortion on top of everything else she suffered? Abortion is not a cure for rape, and pregnancy is not a disease. If my daughter had been violated by a rapist, the last thing I'd want would be to have her violated again by the deadly instruments of abortion.


Selam

Thinking aloud and flipping around the question somewhat, I wonder if it would be legal to forcibly subject one's own child to an abortion procedure, given that parental authority is not legally unlimited (especially in the case of potentially traumatic medical procedures).

An unwanted abortion is not unlike a rape in some ways (invasive of bodily integrity, contact with sex organs, contrariness to will), and it is certainly not legal to consent to the rape of one's daughter by another.
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« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2012, 08:47:01 PM »

Rape is arguably the most evil thing that exists on the planet.  I would also say that abortion is one of the most evil things that exists on this planet.  Im not completely sure I'd know how to deal with the situation JamesR was talking about earlier. We're talking about one disgustingly evil act (abortion) having to happen as a result of another disgustingly evil act (rape).  Its certainly a complicated, horrific, and highly unlikely situation, especially with someone that young.  (Are all 13 yr olds even capable of pregnancy? Maybe so these days... i dunno.)

I hate when those hypothetical questions get brought up. It makes my brain want to explode.

As for the original news article, yea she should have got more than 8 years.
Not all 13 yr olds are capable, but the number of those not yet fertile is dwindling in much of the world (the reason why a few years back the advice was floated to increase pre-teen exercise for girls, to delay the onset of menarchy).
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« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2012, 08:48:07 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?


Yes, I would deny her an abortion. Why would I want to heap the trauma of abortion on top of everything else she suffered? Abortion is not a cure for rape, and pregnancy is not a disease. If my daughter had been violated by a rapist, the last thing I'd want would be to have her violated again by the deadly instruments of abortion.


Selam

Thinking aloud and flipping around the question somewhat, I wonder if it would be legal to forcibly subject one's own child to an abortion procedure, given that parental authority is not legally unlimited (especially in the case of potentially traumatic medical procedures).

An unwanted abortion is not unlike a rape in some ways (invasive of bodily integrity, contact with sex organs, contrariness to will), and it is certainly not legal to consent to the rape of one's daughter by another.
Indeed.  Most of these "voluntary" abortions are forced on the mother by her family or boyfriend.
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« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2012, 09:00:01 PM »

The problem of rape and abortion has always been a big hurdle for me in my pro-life stance. I should just take it as the baby didn't choose to be conceived by rape, and end the contemplation altogether but it's an unwanted pregnancy too.
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« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2012, 09:17:09 PM »

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

Yeah, that's still a restriction on abortion...
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« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2012, 02:32:15 PM »

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

Yeah, that's still a restriction on abortion...

OK, Sheenj. Then how about this. The United States has no federal restriction, up to the moment of birth, on when an abortion can be performed.
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« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2012, 03:47:42 PM »

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

Yeah, that's still a restriction on abortion...

OK, Sheenj. Then how about this. The United States has no federal restriction, up to the moment of birth, on when an abortion can be performed.

Federation
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« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2012, 04:22:04 PM »

Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

Well he can't use the short card either . . .

But I will give him plenty of other material to work with.
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« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2012, 05:13:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

To address the OP issue, if this women committed this in the US she would have equally been convicted, and had a physician directly administered the drugs, they would have been sentenced perhaps to even MORE jail time than the 8 years (which by the way, is indeed a lengthy sentence, lets get off our high horses here, most studies have concluded that 7 years in prison is essentially life in the sense that a person's entire life is destroyed by the experience, their social support systems, their sense of identity, their personal agency to succeed, all if it devastated, so as far as punishments go, several years in prison is harsh enough truly, adding more or less years just becomes petty and overtly vindictive)

To address JamesR comments..

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American.  However, it is more complicated than this.  9 out of 10 women express regret and even remorse after having abortions.  Further, what ever happened to adoption? How are we burdening a woman with a pregnancy she didn't want? Reality is reality.  In our self-gratifying world of modernism, we think everything should happen exactly as we'd like or want it to be, instantly and even selfishly.  Did the woman ask to get raped? Of course not, that would be disgusting to even remotely suggest. However, life is complicated by the reality that most of what occurs is NOT what we want, and rarely what we'd like, most often is a struggle.  We learn to readjust with our struggles through a sense of human dignity.  Life is precious, we overcome all struggles in the hopes to spare life.  How to live is an entirely different matter, but to give every human being just the chance alone to live their own lives is the key.  A woman may feel her life burdened by the circumstance, but she has to deal with her cards as they were dealt to her, such is life.  It can't be changed, avoided, rescinded, or revoked.  Abortion will not magically solve that problem.  The woman still has the trauma and psychological scars of rape, she still was pregnant, she still remembers that.  If anything, the trauma that what should have been a blessing to her (i.e. having a child) became a burden might actually make the woman feel even more victimized, more antagonized, more abused by circumstance. However and again, such is life.  We have to pick up the pieces of our lives as best we are able.  How can a woman know that abortion will somehow make her life any better after a rape just because it seems to make it easier? We and she can't predict the full psychological let alone spiritual impact of that.

Specifically to address JamesR question, if it were my rhetorical daughter we would have to prepare our family for a new member if it were consensual.  If she were raped or sexually molested, well, we have the same struggle, but now we have an adoption to pursue, be it within the family or outside.  That is reality, we'd have to deal with.  Abortion wouldn't lessen the impact or the scarring from this tragedy, if anything, at least in MY OWN family, it would only make it worse.  Further and personally, I feel we are even a more horrendous society when we expect and even empower teenage girls to go at this alone in the first place.  As has been mentioned, teenagers don't have the sense of maturity and development to be able to fully cope with such trauma and responsibility. This is why we as the adults in their lives need to be mentors, need to be supportive, need to be there at ALL costs.  We have to take on these burdens and sacrifices to help our children.  We can't pretend that because it is hard for us, that we should let teenagers fend for themselves.  Current abortion laws empower teenagers to make these literally life-and-death decisions without any guidance or support from adults in their lives.  This has to change.  

No children, indeed no woman of any age, should have to make these kinds of decisions without support and love from other people.  Human beings are social beings, we NEED other people to live, this is why God made Eve for Adam in the first place.  When Cain complicated the matter by killing Abel what was God's response? Was it to kill Cain in retribution? Would that have healed Eve of her motherly pain and grief over the loss of both her sons by circumstance? Would that have healed Cain of his guilt? Would that have resurrected Abel? The truth is Eve was consoled, Cain was absolved, and Abel was resurrected not by judgement or wrath, but by forgiveness, compassion, and love.  These are how we solve this same current moral dilemma facing our society.  

stay blessed,
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« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2012, 05:34:47 PM »

The problem of rape and abortion has always been a big hurdle for me in my pro-life stance. I should just take it as the baby didn't choose to be conceived by rape, and end the contemplation altogether but it's an unwanted pregnancy too.

Someone who has been murdered or maimed likewise did not choose what fate befell them but all the same must bear it's consequences.  That is why rape is evil.  There are many things a woman who was raped will suffer through.  That's why I rather focus on sending the rapist to meet his eternal judge than on killing the child and compounding the suffering.
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« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2012, 05:49:06 PM »

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American.  

The demographics of this website make it very likely that the vast majority of those people rejecting JamesR's ideas in this thread are likewise Americans. I do not see how this kind of talk is helpful.
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« Reply #68 on: October 24, 2012, 07:22:22 PM »

Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

Well he can't use the short card either . . .

But I will give him plenty of other material to work with.

You're so mean, but amusingly good at it.
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« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2012, 09:46:57 AM »

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

If a mother wanted to remove an 'undesirable' 5 year old from her home by killing it, would you feel the same? Under your logic, she gets to choose if she should take care of it.

You lack compassion for life my friend.

Compassion has nothing to do with it. It is about being firmly on the other side of the political divide to those nasty Anglo-Celts and their CEOs, &c., &c.

 laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2012, 09:49:56 AM »

NEVERMIND
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« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2012, 10:04:19 AM »

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.
Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?
Though you are taking a rabbinical tack, I appreciate it.

This clarifies much, and - believe it or not -- helps me a great deal in my own personal struggle.

The problem with putting the problem in this manner is that too many people concentrate on the "becoming flesh" and not the "dwelling".

Really the salient question is, when did the Word become a person?

How did the Word become a person and how should that inform Christian thought on personhood. And one gives an accounts of the personhood of the Persons of the Trinity one then has to account for the reasons why for humans persons come to be and cease to be.

I was pursuing this in another thread, but the interest was underwhelming. People would rather take up some sorta axiomatic approach to "life" or a "scientific" one.

Perhaps I'll go back to that thread and keep plodding ahead and take care of Gebre's obvious mistaken position in the private section where this issue came up and he "replied" to a post of mine in his typically confused manner.

But all this will probably happen post election or so. I am crazy busy among other things till then.
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« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2012, 10:05:43 AM »

Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

Well he can't use the short card either . . .

But I will give him plenty of other material to work with.

You're so mean, but amusingly good at it.

I'd rather be mean than average.
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« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2012, 11:13:45 AM »

The problem with putting the problem in this manner is that too many people concentrate on the "becoming flesh" and not the "dwelling".

I equate the two.
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« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2012, 11:58:20 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American. 

The demographics of this website make it very likely that the vast majority of those people rejecting JamesR's ideas in this thread are likewise Americans. I do not see how this kind of talk is helpful.

It is helpful because Americans like ourselves can better understand the situation if we step back and understand certain aspects of ourselves. We can understand our motivations, our feelings, and our actions based on our cultural tendencies, ways of thinking, and patterns of behavior. Again, American culture in the modern world has become one of instant-gratification, and I feel both abortion itself and also many peoples' attempts at a solution are equally shallow and a result of this self-serving instant gratification mentality.  We Americans need to understand as other cultures know, the slow down sometimes, to see the bigger picture, to think about and work towards in empathy with other people.  Further, this anti-injustice attitude of most Americans can create contradictory conflicts, where folks knee-jerk react both favor and opposition to abortion.  We need to all take a pause for the cause and reflect.  To JamesR, he needs to pause and reflect on is restricting abortion ACTUALLY an injustice or a benefit?  To pro-life folks like many of us here, we need to pause and reflect on how much as a community we actually support mothers and pregnant women rather then just promoting social policies and community actions which only serve to victimize women thinking about an abortion without actually and directly supporting ALL pregnant women as the good Russian Father specifies in the thread Brother Gebre Menfes Kiddus posted.




Really the salient question is, when did the Word become a person?




A human person exists from the moment of their Creation, and I understand in the Orthodox approach human life is created at conception.  When did the Word become a Person? Even before the Creation of Adam, indeed the Creation of anything the Word existed with His Father and the Holy Spirit.  The Trinity is Eternally Consubstantial.  When did the Word become Flesh and acquire a rational human body and soul? At the moment of Conception, called the Incarnation in Orthodox theology.  But come now, you already know all of this, what are you insinuating at more directly? Existentialism can be mysterious but doesn't have to be ambiguous Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2012, 12:07:54 PM »

Quote
imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do?
Love her and take care of her. Then I'd talk to her about adoption. However, if she wanted to keep the child, I would do my darndest to make sure she did not become a statistic by being a lifelong welfare recipient. Her education would not suffer, and I'd help her to the most of my ability.

Quote
And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested?
Since that does not change the worth of a human being.........


Quote
Would you really deny her an abortion?
If it did not endanger the life of the mother, absolutely.

Only to some folks is a inconvenience reason enough to commit murder. I pray our elderly are never in such "care".

Then again, if someone can de-humanize the young, its probably no problem doing for the old.

PP
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« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2012, 12:12:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American. 

The demographics of this website make it very likely that the vast majority of those people rejecting JamesR's ideas in this thread are likewise Americans. I do not see how this kind of talk is helpful.

It is helpful because Americans like ourselves can better understand the situation if we step back and understand certain aspects of ourselves. We can understand our motivations, our feelings, and our actions based on our cultural tendencies, ways of thinking, and patterns of behavior.

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.
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« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2012, 12:36:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

Dude, you read that so wrong.  You noticed I used inclusive words like ours, we, and us? I wasn't trying to be condescending, just honest.  As an American, that is my own personal assessment of American culture, and it is quite prevalent.  If you feel I am stereotyping Americans, I apologize, I don't feel that way.  I am talking about a cultural tendency towards instant-gratification, towards self-asserting thinking.  No, I don't think all Americans think like teenagers venting on the internet, but I do indeed think that a common theme of American culture is instant gratification. If anything, how you've just gotten all defensive as if my comments about American culture were directed at you personally is revealing to how this is a cultural trait of being American.  I wasn't necessarily talking about you in anyway, and yet you instantly inserted yourself into the equation and began a defensive argument with me. Further, this analysis somehow equates to intolerance or bigotry?  Interesting  angel



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2012, 02:06:15 AM »

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it. You may be right about the psychological affects that come along with abortion, but then again, I'm sure there are also psychological affects that come along with her having to endure pregnancy at such a young age and then risk her life giving birth. I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth. And I would condemn anyone who would.

James. You really need to educate yourself on the physical and psychological effects of abortion before making these weird posts.
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« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2012, 02:19:45 AM »

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.
Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?
Though you are taking a rabbinical tack, I appreciate it.

This clarifies much, and - believe it or not -- helps me a great deal in my own personal struggle.

The problem with putting the problem in this manner is that too many people concentrate on the "becoming flesh" and not the "dwelling".

Really the salient question is, when did the Word become a person?

How did the Word become a person and how should that inform Christian thought on personhood. And one gives an accounts of the personhood of the Persons of the Trinity one then has to account for the reasons why for humans persons come to be and cease to be.

I was pursuing this in another thread, but the interest was underwhelming. People would rather take up some sorta axiomatic approach to "life" or a "scientific" one.

Perhaps I'll go back to that thread and keep plodding ahead and take care of Gebre's obvious mistaken position in the private section where this issue came up and he "replied" to a post of mine in his typically confused manner.

But all this will probably happen post election or so. I am crazy busy among other things till then.


Do human persons cease to be?
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« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2012, 06:16:16 AM »

Quote
I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth. And I would condemn anyone who would.
Right now, I would value your opinion on parenting about as much as I'd value a vegetarian commenting on how bad a steak was......

I really think you need to read up on the stories of women who have had abortions and have regretted it. Sadly most folks who offer abortions have no problem offering that "solution" first.

PP
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« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2012, 08:52:31 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

Dude, you read that so wrong.  You noticed I used inclusive words like ours, we, and us? I wasn't trying to be condescending, just honest.  As an American, that is my own personal assessment of American culture, and it is quite prevalent.  If you feel I am stereotyping Americans, I apologize, I don't feel that way.  I am talking about a cultural tendency towards instant-gratification, towards self-asserting thinking.  No, I don't think all Americans think like teenagers venting on the internet, but I do indeed think that a common theme of American culture is instant gratification. If anything, how you've just gotten all defensive as if my comments about American culture were directed at you personally is revealing to how this is a cultural trait of being American.  I wasn't necessarily talking about you in anyway, and yet you instantly inserted yourself into the equation and began a defensive argument with me. Further, this analysis somehow equates to intolerance or bigotry?  Interesting  angel



stay blessed,
habte selassie

I don't see you as intolerant or bigoted but have in fact spoken truth when it comes to American culture.  The Evidence is out there, just look at marketing of goods and services, fast food, convenient stores, and credit cards, etc. etc.  All geared to one thing instant gratification, get it now, buy buy buy culture, if something gets in the way of what you want dump it, that would include spouses, children, jobs, spiritual life, etc.   
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« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2012, 09:12:48 AM »

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP
This was what I first thought.
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« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2012, 09:13:22 AM »

Why would someone do a thing like that  Huh

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Selfishness and evil.
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« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2012, 09:14:57 AM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?
Yes.  Anything else you are wondering about we can clear up?
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« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2012, 09:15:42 AM »

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP
This was what I first thought.

Particularly when you consider that this most likely means that she'll be out in 4 and that will include any time spent on remand.

James
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« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2012, 09:17:44 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

Dude, you read that so wrong.  You noticed I used inclusive words like ours, we, and us? I wasn't trying to be condescending, just honest.  As an American, that is my own personal assessment of American culture, and it is quite prevalent.  If you feel I am stereotyping Americans, I apologize, I don't feel that way.  I am talking about a cultural tendency towards instant-gratification, towards self-asserting thinking.  No, I don't think all Americans think like teenagers venting on the internet, but I do indeed think that a common theme of American culture is instant gratification. If anything, how you've just gotten all defensive as if my comments about American culture were directed at you personally is revealing to how this is a cultural trait of being American.  I wasn't necessarily talking about you in anyway, and yet you instantly inserted yourself into the equation and began a defensive argument with me. Further, this analysis somehow equates to intolerance or bigotry?  Interesting  angel



stay blessed,
habte selassie

I don't see you as intolerant or bigoted but have in fact spoken truth when it comes to American culture.  The Evidence is out there, just look at marketing of goods and services, fast food, convenient stores, and credit cards, etc. etc.  All geared to one thing instant gratification, get it now, buy buy buy culture, if something gets in the way of what you want dump it, that would include spouses, children, jobs, spiritual life, etc.   

Very sad way of life you have in America.....!

A friend of mine (Greek) said she lived in America for a couple of years, she said it is all work, work, work..... She couldn't wait to get back to Greece as she said Americans don't know how to enjoy life or the simple things.

 Sad
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« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2012, 09:19:21 AM »

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.
Or, you can help her be a responsible parent and show her how much you love her and then she can pass that love onto her child and the child can see even though it was conceived through a violent act of crime, it has a purpose and is loved, thus returning that love...duh.
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« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2012, 09:23:30 AM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?
You do realize this type of scenario is a very rare percentage of all abortions, don't you?
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« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2012, 09:26:04 AM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

In any one of the States that does not have such restrictions, a woman can have an abortion at any time and it would not violate the law of the United States Federal Government.

And further, her abortion would very likely be subsidized by Federal spending in some manner.
I must agree with James on this.  Even in America, land of sinful pleasure, this would be a crime.
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