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Author Topic: Sarah Catt jailed for full-term abortion of baby  (Read 3567 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 17, 2012, 11:15:39 AM »

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A woman who aborted her own baby in the final phase of her pregnancy has been jailed for eight years.

Sarah Louise Catt, 35, of Sherburn-in-Elmet, North Yorkshire, took a drug when she was full term, 39 weeks pregnant, to cause an early delivery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19621675

Some sense at last, now we need to get them to do the same for all pregnancies...
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 11:48:48 AM »

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 12:39:33 PM »

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 01:17:21 PM »

Why would someone do a thing like that  Huh

Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2012, 07:00:04 PM »

That is truly horrible. So many would love to have a sweet little boy and can't. Too bad people like this can't be sterilized.
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2012, 07:21:06 PM »

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP

It appears that she pleaded guilty to "administering a poison with intent to procure miscarriage of pregnancy". It is highly likely that the sentencing judge was constrained by a statutory maximum penalty, especially given his Honour's comments as to the gravity of the crime -- "[lying] between manslaughter and murder".

Lord, have mercy on the soul of the child, and on that of his mother.
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2012, 07:24:57 PM »

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A woman who aborted her own baby in the final phase of her pregnancy has been jailed for eight years.

Sarah Louise Catt, 35, of Sherburn-in-Elmet, North Yorkshire, took a drug when she was full term, 39 weeks pregnant, to cause an early delivery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19621675

Some sense at last, now we need to get them to do the same for all pregnancies...
I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2012, 08:26:50 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2012, 08:31:38 PM »

That is truly horrible. So many would love to have a sweet little boy and can't. Too bad people like this can't be sterilized.
Yeah forced sterilization..now that's pro-life.
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2012, 08:34:33 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

The scenario you describe is pretty far from the OP. Perhaps you can say what you think of the case of Sarah Louise Catt before interrogating others with a hypothetical situation.
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2012, 08:37:25 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

The scenario you describe is pretty far from the OP. Perhaps you can say what you think of the case of Sarah Louise Catt before interrogating others with a hypothetical situation.

I'm not talking about Sarah Catt, but to the few people in this thread who stated that they wish they would do this to all people who get abortions.
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2012, 08:41:32 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

A grown woman has pleaded guilty to the crime of administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage of pregnancy. The sentencing judge characterised her crime as somewhere between manslaughter and murder.

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

Lest I be accused of dodging your questions, here are my answers:

(1) Not burden my daughter with the guilt that belongs to a murderess by aiding/abetting the killing of her child.

(2) The answer is no different to (1).

(3) Certainly.

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2012, 08:49:54 PM »

I have a 9 year old son during the whole time his mother was pregnant with him I contemplated how to go abort terminating the pregnancy illegally, when I cheated on his mother I got other women pregnant and even paid for an abortion I am deserving of a prison cell even more then this women. I only exist as a free man because of the steadfast love and compassion of Christ for sinners.  I can only beg God to do the same for her.
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« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 08:52:33 PM »

Not that she should be free from prison, I think that could be a wake up
Call, but freedom from sinful passions
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2012, 09:00:10 PM »

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

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(3) Certainly.

I'd feel bad for your children. If I had a daughter and she had been through the same thing, and some religious nuts were trying to outlaw her from getting an abortion, my response to them would be F#@$ You! and I would let her decide if she wants one or not.

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What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

No, but rather incompassionate, invasive and harsh.

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I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

I am deeply perturbed by the lack of compassion among the pro-life crowd.
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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2012, 09:05:16 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

A grown woman has pleaded guilty to the crime of administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage of pregnancy. The sentencing judge characterised her crime as somewhere between manslaughter and murder.

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

Lest I be accused of dodging your questions, here are my answers:

(1) Not burden my daughter with the guilt that belongs to a murderess by aiding/abetting the killing of her child.

(2) The answer is no different to (1).

(3) Certainly.

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

Well said. How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?
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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2012, 09:07:13 PM »

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.
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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2012, 09:09:40 PM »

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

I still would not kill my grandchild. Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2012, 09:09:47 PM »

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

Without giving a direct answer to the question at hand, just want to point out that the "something undesirable" being debated here is a human being made in the image and likeness of God.
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« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2012, 09:10:23 PM »

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

A human being created in the image and likeness of God is not an "undesirable thing" to be removed as if it was a cancerous tumour.

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I'd feel bad for your children. If I had a daughter and she had been through the same thing, and some religious nuts were trying to outlaw her from getting an abortion, my response to them would be F#@$ You! and I would let her decide if she wants one or not.

If these religious nuts were without understanding or compassion, as is often the case unfortunately, then yes, you'd be right in cursing them out. However, rather than encouraging your daughter to murder the innocent child, every bit as much a victim of the hideous crime as your daughter, the Christian response would be to do everything in your power to help her get through it. Raising the child as your own if need be, or finding a childless couple willing to adopt.

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No, but rather incompassionate, invasive and harsh.

Encouraging your daughter to kill her own child, the psychological effects of which she would have to live with for the rest of her life, is not necessarily a more compassionate or loving response.
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2012, 09:11:44 PM »

...Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

I do not know, but I would. I honestly do not see why we shouldn't make moral concessions for abortion, seeing that we've made moral concessions for other things in the past. Hell, even God sanctioned abortion by sentencing fornicators to stoning.
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2012, 09:17:09 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do?


I would explain to her that with the use of sexuality comes responsibility, and since she is not ready to handle it herself (see: having sex and getting pregnant in the first place), the decision whether or not to keep the child is not hers, but that of her parents (who also, hypothetically of course, will be locking her up in the basement until she can't remember what a boy looks like!). Her child will be born, by the grace of God, and we will go from there as far as figuring out what to do with the baby. (Raise it, adoption, etc.; It's hard to know what to hypothetically do with a hypothetical baby, a hypothetical oversexed and confused child, and a hypothetical wife, plus all the other hypothetical family who conceivably have their own advice and help to give.)

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And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Just as it was not her fault that these terrible things happened to her, we do not want to compound the tragedy with even more tragedy by killing a baby. The answer is ultimately the same as for the first question, despite the radically different circumstances.

As Akimori has written, there is no other opinion that is acceptable in Christianity. All this stuff about "burdening her for 9 months" is bunk. You know what's a real burden for the rest of your life? Knowing that there would be a child out there, born of your flesh, a perfect and holy blessing of God (even if conceived in very unholy circumstances), who is not walking upon this earth as s/he should be so that you wouldn't be "burdened" for 9 months of your life. 9 months is a relatively short measurement of time, not a life in toto. A baby is a life. The two are not comparable.
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2012, 09:17:38 PM »

I am deeply perturbed by the lack of compassion among the pro-life crowd.

Someone talking about a human life as "something undesirable" isn't fit to lecture about compassion.
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2012, 09:19:00 PM »

A human being created in the image and likeness of God is not an "undesirable thing" to be removed as if it was a cancerous tumour.

Yet we still do precisely that during war and with capital punishment. The point being that as sad as it is, sometimes we have to do these things because we live in a fallen world. We have to adapt given the lousy circumstances God has allowed us to endure. In fact, He is the one to blame for all of this, but that is a different story.

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If these religious nuts were without understanding or compassion, as is often the case unfortunately, then yes, you'd be right in cursing them out. However, rather than encouraging your daughter to murder the innocent child, every bit as much a victim of the hideous crime as your daughter, the Christian response would be to do everything in your power to help her get through it. Raising the child as your own if need be, or finding a childless couple willing to adopt.

I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all. I know firsthand how difficult it is to have a child as a teenager because my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

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Encouraging your daughter to kill her own child, a psychological effects of which she would have to live with for the rest of her life, is not necessarily a more compassionate or loving response.

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it. You may be right about the psychological affects that come along with abortion, but then again, I'm sure there are also psychological affects that come along with her having to endure pregnancy at such a young age and then risk her life giving birth. I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth. And I would condemn anyone who would.
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2012, 09:25:01 PM »

...Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

I do not know, but I would. I honestly do not see why we shouldn't make moral concessions for abortion, seeing that we've made moral concessions for other things in the past. Hell, even God sanctioned abortion by sentencing fornicators to stoning.

As Orthodox Christians I don't think we can make moral concessions against loving the unborn child enough to at least let the child be adopted into another family even if we can't accept this innocent victim into our own family due to the hurt of the circumstances involved in its conception.
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 09:26:45 PM »

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it.

Since when is a 13-year-old prepared or entrusted to make such a decision? Even forgetting the fact that they're not (mentally) prepared to be in physical/sexual relationships in the first place, they certainly aren't prepared to make decisions regarding the lives of other people. And that's what a baby is: A person. Not a "thing", regardless of what you, who is also not prepared mentally or in any other way to be deciding such things, think about what you'd do to your hypothetical daughter in a given situation.
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2012, 09:32:00 PM »

Yet we still do precisely that during war and with capital punishment.

An unborn child is innocent, a criminal facing capital punishment is not. War is a terrible crime, but even then it's a matter of killing or being killed. You taking one life to save another, or perhaps thousands of others. Abortion, unless the mother is sure to die if the pregnancy goes ahead (which is quite a different situation), does not prevent the death of any other person.

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I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all.


If your daughter was as young as 13, as suggested in your example, there is no way you as a responsible parent would allow her to make such a decision on her own, especially in a state of extreme emotional distress.

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I know firsthand how difficult it is to have a child as a teenager because my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

May God bless her for chosing to spare your life and bring you into the world despite the obvious difficulties it would entail.

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I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth.

If there was a high probability that your daughter would die during labour, that's another question.
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 09:33:14 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

your tired and laughable appeal to emotion

Its an American tradition.  Would you deny Americans their right to tradition?  You surely must be a Hitler-worshipping plantation owner.   Roll Eyes

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What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?


lol, yep, that's probably coming next.  

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I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

Exactly
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2012, 09:38:03 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Huh
What are you going on about? 
How can you be Orthodox and a pro-abort?  I assume your priest taught you basic Orthodox Christian moral theology and the commandments. 
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2012, 10:20:39 PM »

I am deeply perturbed by the lack of compassion among the pro-life crowd.

I am deeply perturbed at your lack of compassion for innocent human life.

I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all.

In the eyes of the law, a 13-year-old does not have the judgment to drive, vote, live on their own, or have sex. (Heck, in some states a crisis pregnancy center is required to notify police if a 13-year-old comes in pregnant, regardless of the circumstances.)

If a teenager does not possess the judgment to do these things, she certainly doesn't have the judgment to decide whether she's going to take her child's life.

Call it coldhearted, but the right of an innocent child to exist trumps the any right the mother has to comfort.

As for the OP, I'm glad there is some sense of lawfulness in today's world. Murder is murder.
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2012, 10:32:18 PM »

James, perhaps you are unaware that a pregnancy is considered full term at any point beyond 36 week. This "something undesirable" she removed is not a clump of cells or a weird, blobby-looking alien. This is a full term, viable baby. This woman has already been "burdened" for 9 months- labor could come at any second of any day at this point. This was senseless. And your "raped 13 year old daughter" scenario has absolutely nothing to do with the case in the OP. I suspect you know this, as I know you are an intelligent person.
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2012, 10:51:51 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Why would you deny life to an innocent child within her?

The girl can be supported through the pregnancy, given love and counseling, justice can be sought, and the baby can be given to a good family.
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2012, 10:15:14 AM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2012, 10:56:43 AM »

James, perhaps you are unaware that a pregnancy is considered full term at any point beyond 36 week. This "something undesirable" she removed is not a clump of cells or a weird, blobby-looking alien. This is a full term, viable baby.
Yeah, this is not the case of aborting a first-trimester fetus. The difference between a 39-week pregnancy and a newborn is location.
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2012, 11:01:07 AM »

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

Yes, but when you believe in God you understand things differently.  I say this as a father of three daughters.  I would never under any circumstances counsel one of my daughters to have an abortion.  All life is in God's hands and is not ours to take.  I pray that my daughters would never have to be in such a position as you describe, but if something bad happened to them, an abortion on top of that would only become a greater burden upon their soul, and I too would then have my soul burdened as an accomplice to murder.  
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2012, 11:06:06 AM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?
Would you really want your 13 year old daughter to be complicit in murder? Why add the trauma of killing her own baby, to the trauma she has already suffered as the result of rape?

Oh, and btw, the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for the sake of rape/incest/life of the mother. The vast majority are performed as back up birth control.
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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2012, 02:40:50 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?
Would you really want your 13 year old daughter to be complicit in murder? Why add the trauma of killing her own baby, to the trauma she has already suffered as the result of rape?

Oh, and btw, the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for the sake of rape/incest/life of the mother. The vast majority are performed as back up birth control.

And to prevent the horrible shame and societal scandal over unwed pregnancies...oh wait.
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2012, 07:51:20 PM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."
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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2012, 07:58:52 PM »

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 07:59:53 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2012, 08:25:23 PM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

Are you the same person as JamesR? 
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2012, 08:32:16 PM »

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Yes I would stand opposed to an abortion.
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2012, 08:43:11 PM »

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

Are you the same person as JamesR? 
He is not.
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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2012, 08:43:45 PM »

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.
Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 08:54:04 PM by Agabus » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2012, 09:01:11 PM »

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.
Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2012, 09:03:07 PM »

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.
Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?
Good point.
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