Maximum family sizes...good idea or bad?

[ZealousZeal]

I could get behind limiting family sizes on those incapable of supporting them through means of mandatory sterilization once maximum size has been reached (which might possibly be below replacement levels).

I couldn't. I am really uncomfortable with the government mandating something like sterilization which interferes so totally with someone's autonomy, no matter how poor their decisions. Even with my pet causes (if you will) like vaccination- despite how much I want to be behind mandated vaxes, I just can't.

No one is autonomous in the absolute sense, at least if you are including something like "agency" along with autonomy. There is always a way to short circuit anyone's "beliefs" or "protests", which rarely have much to do with autonomy or agency to begin with. The belief in absolute subjectivity I thought gladly went the way of the of whatever dinosaur walked with Adam.  

I hesitated to use the word "autonomy", but in the end I couldn't think of a better one. I don't believe we are absolutely autonomous either, yet mandated sterilization makes me twitchy. It seems such a gross violation of what autonomy we do/should have. A line better left uncrossed, I think.

I'll save my joke about what liberal is for the politics forum or something.

There's plenty of threads down there just ripe for such a joke, I'm sure. Or you can PM it to me. Can't be worse than the one vamrat sent me once (which I've gotten decent mileage on BTW. Thanks, vamrat!  ).

[orthonorm]

more on pop.org and their agenda.

step one when investigating whether a claim is accurate is to check your sources and see if they present a clear bias or reason for bias. the PRI has a clear agenda of promoting anti-abortion and anti-contraceptive policies. Unfortunately they don't realize that by providing people with adequate access to contraception, they are effectively preventing millions of abortions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBsKalN3uc

People do have access to contraception.  They purchase it from the Pharmacy. 

Oh, you meant free. 

There are plenty of schools that hand out free condoms to children. Some even provide lessons on how to use them.

I know.  It's despicable.

What do you find piscable?

[That person]

That is pure speculation math.

Fixed.

Seems pretty applied to me...

[vamrat]

I could get behind limiting family sizes on those incapable of supporting them through means of mandatory sterilization once maximum size has been reached (which might possibly be below replacement levels).

I couldn't. I am really uncomfortable with the government mandating something like sterilization which interferes so totally with someone's autonomy, no matter how poor their decisions. Even with my pet causes (if you will) like vaccination- despite how much I want to be behind mandated vaxes, I just can't.

No one is autonomous in the absolute sense, at least if you are including something like "agency" along with autonomy. There is always a way to short circuit anyone's "beliefs" or "protests", which rarely have much to do with autonomy or agency to begin with. The belief in absolute subjectivity I thought gladly went the way of the of whatever dinosaur walked with Adam.  

I hesitated to use the word "autonomy", but in the end I couldn't think of a better one. I don't believe we are absolutely autonomous either, yet mandated sterilization makes me twitchy. It seems such a gross violation of what autonomy we do/should have. A line better left uncrossed, I think.

I'll save my joke about what liberal is for the politics forum or something.

There's plenty of threads down there just ripe for such a joke, I'm sure. Or you can PM it to me. Can't be worse than the one vamrat sent me once (which I've gotten decent mileage on BTW. Thanks, vamrat!  ).

I aim to please/disgust/please!  

[Ortho_cat]

so far it seems that education and access to birth control does a pretty good job of population control. Studies show that the more educated a society is as a whole the less children they tend to have.

Is that a good thing?  

in poor countries where their populations are expected to at least double within the next 50 years and people struggle with basic needs already, yes

Agreed.  But what about in industrialized societies where people can support themselves?  These people will get old someday and if they choose not to self replicate it will fall on the backs of the dwindling numbers of the future generation to support them.

if they are living sustainably then they are doing great; I say carry on with busines as usual. Unfortunately few societies are in this position today (I doubt any industrialized nations are). Most nations are depleting their resources faster than they can replace them.

[yeshuaisiam]

so far it seems that education and access to birth control does a pretty good job of population control. Studies show that the more educated a society is as a whole the less children they tend to have.

Is that a good thing?  

in poor countries where their populations are expected to at least double within the next 50 years and people struggle with basic needs already, yes

Agreed.  But what about in industrialized societies where people can support themselves?  These people will get old someday and if they choose not to self replicate it will fall on the backs of the dwindling numbers of the future generation to support them.

if they are living sustainably then they are doing great; I say carry on with busines as usual. Unfortunately few societies are in this position today (I doubt any industrialized nations are). Most nations are depleting their resources faster than they can replace them.

All I can say is research Eugenics, and overpopulation propaganda.  I don't know if you live in the city or not.  But please, just use google maps.  Look around and there is barren land everywhere.   

If anything, I believe we could quadruple the world's population and be just fine, if not more.  It's not a problem.  If we talk "using resources" that's a different issue.  People could build "earthships" (google them they are cool).   

[Marc1152]

...Even at this rate, our current population will double in only 65 years to 14 billion. Also keep in mind there is no guarantee that this rate will continue to decrease.

Playing Devil's advocate, there is also no guarantee that it will continue to increase...War, famine, disease, obesity etc. Humanity usually has some huge epidemic every hundred years or so that lowers our population.

Oh i don't doubt that it will decrease at some point, due to disease, famine, war, genocide, increased abortion rate, etc. I'm proposing that it is better to prevent such things from happening in the first place by being responsible and addressing the problem upfront before it gets too severe. I also think that adoption is a great way to help control population size.

There is no problem... Population will peak in 25 years and then go down again. The population will be exactly what it is today in 75 years.

If you monkey around and try to limit population ( for no good reason, see above) you will alter the basic structure of society. That is the result in China. They will soon have just one male to support three to four generations above him. They are screwed. Let's not do the same..Thanks for your concern.

[Marc1152]

so far it seems that education and access to birth control does a pretty good job of population control. Studies show that the more educated a society is as a whole the less children they tend to have.

Is that a good thing?  

in poor countries where their populations are expected to at least double within the next 50 years and people struggle with basic needs already, yes

Agreed.  But what about in industrialized societies where people can support themselves?  These people will get old someday and if they choose not to self replicate it will fall on the backs of the dwindling numbers of the future generation to support them.

if they are living sustainably then they are doing great; I say carry on with busines as usual. Unfortunately few societies are in this position today (I doubt any industrialized nations are). Most nations are depleting their resources faster than they can replace them.

Not really..We will eventually have an oil problem but there are plenty of resources to support a much larger population than we have now.

Here, take a few minutes and watch these and then try to relax ;

http://overpopulationisamyth.com/content/episode-5-7-billion-people-will-everyone-please-relax

http://overpopulationisamyth.com/food-theres-lots-it

http://overpopulationisamyth.com/overpopulation-the-making-of-a-myth

[ialmisry]

So what would you all think if all other nations starting adopting a 3 children limit for families, enforced by mandatory sterilization? Do you think US should follow such an initiative? If not, how do we prevent rapid population growth?

Over population is a myth. In fact, we better get going in the USA and crank out far more babies. Russia is even worse off. They are considering giving huge tax breaks for having larger families.

Here is the best site on the internet to learn more: www.pop.org

Are you denying that the world's population is growing at an exponential rate, or asserting that the world can hold an unlimited amount of people on it?

Yes indeed I am.. Population is not growing exponentially. In fact, it is slowing down and will peak in 25 years and then we will lose population.

It's a math thing

Here is a really good video that will explain it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iodJ0OOdgRg

Oh I have no doubt that there will be a massive reduction in population eventually after countries hit the "breaking point". My concern is that it will be conducted by destructive means such as genocide and infanticide (rampant abortion) and war over resources/territory. I'd rather we get population under control by preventional means rather than other methods.

There is no guarantee that it will level off after 25 years. That is pure speculation.  There are too many factors at play to say such a thing with any certitude.

You are worrying needlessly. Population growth is slowing. China screwed itself with the same fears you have. There are plenty of resources to handle the human population even when it max's out in a few years. Then it will decline. Yawn

The real challenge is to increase family size in advanced countries. Russia is addressing the issue vigorously. Even Mexico has dropped back to a 2.2 replacement rate so all the immigration pressures on the United States will ease.

Things are not getting worse and worse. They are getting better and better.

Put  some time into that demographics site:   www.pop.org

Unfortunately i don't think sticking our heads in the sand and acting like it isn't happening will fix anything. The world population increased by 200 thousand today and will increase by 8 million this year. That means many more people will go hungry and without basic necessities.

Only if people cause it.

Singapore and Hong Kong are among the most "overpopulated" areas in the world.  They are also among the richest.

You could fit all the world's population in an average American home lot in Texas, and the rest of the world would be uninhabited. At present, my background noise is the "Matrix" in which there is a line I caught where the machines deride humans as the only species that depletes its resources and then moves on to survive.  It seems the agenda behind that didn't notice that plenty of places have been inhabited by humans for millenia.

[William]

Okay seriously denying humans their reproductive autonomy is WRONG. Ends do not justify the means.

[Marc1152]

Okay seriously denying humans their reproductive autonomy is WRONG. Ends do not justify the means.

Plus, overpopulation is a myth so the ends and means would both be an error.

[Gunnarr]

"THOSE WHO DENY GLOBAL WARMING IS ANATHEMA!"

- The Green Patriarch Bartholomew

[vamrat]

"THOSE WHO DENY GLOBAL WARMING IS ANATHEMA!"

- The Green Patriarch Bartholomew

Huh?

[yeshuaisiam]

"THOSE WHO DENY GLOBAL WARMING IS ANATHEMA!"

- The Green Patriarch Bartholomew

Huh?

It's not easy being Green....

[vamrat]

"THOSE WHO DENY GLOBAL WARMING IS ANATHEMA!"

- The Green Patriarch Bartholomew

Huh?

It's not easy being Green....

Green with envy of the great Patriarch +++Kyrill I+++ of the Third Rome.

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Free-For-All > Non-Religious Topics (Moderator: Pravoslavbob) > Topic: Maximum family sizes...good idea or bad?