Sarah Catt jailed for full-term abortion of baby

[JR]

A woman who aborted her own baby in the final phase of her pregnancy has been jailed for eight years.

Sarah Louise Catt, 35, of Sherburn-in-Elmet, North Yorkshire, took a drug when she was full term, 39 weeks pregnant, to cause an early delivery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19621675

Some sense at last, now we need to get them to do the same for all pregnancies...

[primuspilus]

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP

[Maria]

Lord have mercy.

[Cyrillic]

Why would someone do a thing like that 

Lord, have mercy!

[ShootingStar]

That is truly horrible. So many would love to have a sweet little boy and can't. Too bad people like this can't be sterilized.

[akimori makoto]

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP

It appears that she pleaded guilty to "administering a poison with intent to procure miscarriage of pregnancy". It is highly likely that the sentencing judge was constrained by a statutory maximum penalty, especially given his Honour's comments as to the gravity of the crime -- "[lying] between manslaughter and murder".

Lord, have mercy on the soul of the child, and on that of his mother.

[ialmisry]

A woman who aborted her own baby in the final phase of her pregnancy has been jailed for eight years.

Sarah Louise Catt, 35, of Sherburn-in-Elmet, North Yorkshire, took a drug when she was full term, 39 weeks pregnant, to cause an early delivery.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-19621675

Some sense at last, now we need to get them to do the same for all pregnancies...

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

[JamesR]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

[Tallitot]

That is truly horrible. So many would love to have a sweet little boy and can't. Too bad people like this can't be sterilized.

Yeah forced sterilization..now that's pro-life.

[Iconodule]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

The scenario you describe is pretty far from the OP. Perhaps you can say what you think of the case of Sarah Louise Catt before interrogating others with a hypothetical situation.

[JamesR]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

The scenario you describe is pretty far from the OP. Perhaps you can say what you think of the case of Sarah Louise Catt before interrogating others with a hypothetical situation.

I'm not talking about Sarah Catt, but to the few people in this thread who stated that they wish they would do this to all people who get abortions.

[akimori makoto]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

A grown woman has pleaded guilty to the crime of administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage of pregnancy. The sentencing judge characterised her crime as somewhere between manslaughter and murder.

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

Lest I be accused of dodging your questions, here are my answers:

(1) Not burden my daughter with the guilt that belongs to a murderess by aiding/abetting the killing of her child.

(2) The answer is no different to (1).

(3) Certainly.

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

[Ashman618]

I have a 9 year old son during the whole time his mother was pregnant with him I contemplated how to go abort terminating the pregnancy illegally, when I cheated on his mother I got other women pregnant and even paid for an abortion I am deserving of a prison cell even more then this women. I only exist as a free man because of the steadfast love and compassion of Christ for sinners.  I can only beg God to do the same for her.

[Ashman618]

Not that she should be free from prison, I think that could be a wake up
Call, but freedom from sinful passions

[JamesR]

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

(3) Certainly.

I'd feel bad for your children. If I had a daughter and she had been through the same thing, and some religious nuts were trying to outlaw her from getting an abortion, my response to them would be F#@$ You! and I would let her decide if she wants one or not.

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

No, but rather incompassionate, invasive and harsh.

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

I am deeply perturbed by the lack of compassion among the pro-life crowd.

[DavidH]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

A grown woman has pleaded guilty to the crime of administering a poison with intent to procure a miscarriage of pregnancy. The sentencing judge characterised her crime as somewhere between manslaughter and murder.

What does your tired and laughable appeal to emotion have to do with the rightful sentencing of a criminal to a term of imprisonment?

Lest I be accused of dodging your questions, here are my answers:

(1) Not burden my daughter with the guilt that belongs to a murderess by aiding/abetting the killing of her child.

(2) The answer is no different to (1).

(3) Certainly.

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

Well said. How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

[JamesR]

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

[DavidH]

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

I still would not kill my grandchild. Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

[Melodist]

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

Without giving a direct answer to the question at hand, just want to point out that the "something undesirable" being debated here is a human being made in the image and likeness of God.

[Orthodox11]

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

A human being created in the image and likeness of God is not an "undesirable thing" to be removed as if it was a cancerous tumour.

I'd feel bad for your children. If I had a daughter and she had been through the same thing, and some religious nuts were trying to outlaw her from getting an abortion, my response to them would be F#@$ You! and I would let her decide if she wants one or not.

If these religious nuts were without understanding or compassion, as is often the case unfortunately, then yes, you'd be right in cursing them out. However, rather than encouraging your daughter to murder the innocent child, every bit as much a victim of the hideous crime as your daughter, the Christian response would be to do everything in your power to help her get through it. Raising the child as your own if need be, or finding a childless couple willing to adopt.

No, but rather incompassionate, invasive and harsh.

Encouraging your daughter to kill her own child, the psychological effects of which she would have to live with for the rest of her life, is not necessarily a more compassionate or loving response.

[JamesR]

...Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

I do not know, but I would. I honestly do not see why we shouldn't make moral concessions for abortion, seeing that we've made moral concessions for other things in the past. Hell, even God sanctioned abortion by sentencing fornicators to stoning.

[dzheremi]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do?

I would explain to her that with the use of sexuality comes responsibility, and since she is not ready to handle it herself (see: having sex and getting pregnant in the first place), the decision whether or not to keep the child is not hers, but that of her parents (who also, hypothetically of course, will be locking her up in the basement until she can't remember what a boy looks like!). Her child will be born, by the grace of God, and we will go from there as far as figuring out what to do with the baby. (Raise it, adoption, etc.; It's hard to know what to hypothetically do with a hypothetical baby, a hypothetical oversexed and confused child, and a hypothetical wife, plus all the other hypothetical family who conceivably have their own advice and help to give.)

And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Just as it was not her fault that these terrible things happened to her, we do not want to compound the tragedy with even more tragedy by killing a baby. The answer is ultimately the same as for the first question, despite the radically different circumstances.

As Akimori has written, there is no other opinion that is acceptable in Christianity. All this stuff about "burdening her for 9 months" is bunk. You know what's a real burden for the rest of your life? Knowing that there would be a child out there, born of your flesh, a perfect and holy blessing of God (even if conceived in very unholy circumstances), who is not walking upon this earth as s/he should be so that you wouldn't be "burdened" for 9 months of your life. 9 months is a relatively short measurement of time, not a life in toto. A baby is a life. The two are not comparable.

[Iconodule]

I am deeply perturbed by the lack of compassion among the pro-life crowd.

Someone talking about a human life as "something undesirable" isn't fit to lecture about compassion.

[JamesR]

A human being created in the image and likeness of God is not an "undesirable thing" to be removed as if it was a cancerous tumour.

Yet we still do precisely that during war and with capital punishment. The point being that as sad as it is, sometimes we have to do these things because we live in a fallen world. We have to adapt given the lousy circumstances God has allowed us to endure. In fact, He is the one to blame for all of this, but that is a different story.

If these religious nuts were without understanding or compassion, as is often the case unfortunately, then yes, you'd be right in cursing them out. However, rather than encouraging your daughter to murder the innocent child, every bit as much a victim of the hideous crime as your daughter, the Christian response would be to do everything in your power to help her get through it. Raising the child as your own if need be, or finding a childless couple willing to adopt.

I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all. I know firsthand how difficult it is to have a child as a teenager because my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

Encouraging your daughter to kill her own child, a psychological effects of which she would have to live with for the rest of her life, is not necessarily a more compassionate or loving response.

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it. You may be right about the psychological affects that come along with abortion, but then again, I'm sure there are also psychological affects that come along with her having to endure pregnancy at such a young age and then risk her life giving birth. I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth. And I would condemn anyone who would.

[DavidH]

...Do the Fathers or the Church make exceptions to the sin of abortion in these cases?

I do not know, but I would. I honestly do not see why we shouldn't make moral concessions for abortion, seeing that we've made moral concessions for other things in the past. Hell, even God sanctioned abortion by sentencing fornicators to stoning.

As Orthodox Christians I don't think we can make moral concessions against loving the unborn child enough to at least let the child be adopted into another family even if we can't accept this innocent victim into our own family due to the hurt of the circumstances involved in its conception.

[dzheremi]

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it.

Since when is a 13-year-old prepared or entrusted to make such a decision? Even forgetting the fact that they're not (mentally) prepared to be in physical/sexual relationships in the first place, they certainly aren't prepared to make decisions regarding the lives of other people. And that's what a baby is: A person. Not a "thing", regardless of what you, who is also not prepared mentally or in any other way to be deciding such things, think about what you'd do to your hypothetical daughter in a given situation.

[Orthodox11]

Yet we still do precisely that during war and with capital punishment.

An unborn child is innocent, a criminal facing capital punishment is not. War is a terrible crime, but even then it's a matter of killing or being killed. You taking one life to save another, or perhaps thousands of others. Abortion, unless the mother is sure to die if the pregnancy goes ahead (which is quite a different situation), does not prevent the death of any other person.

I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all.

If your daughter was as young as 13, as suggested in your example, there is no way you as a responsible parent would allow her to make such a decision on her own, especially in a state of extreme emotional distress.

I know firsthand how difficult it is to have a child as a teenager because my mother got pregnant with me at fifteen.

May God bless her for chosing to spare your life and bring you into the world despite the obvious difficulties it would entail.

I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth.

If there was a high probability that your daughter would die during labour, that's another question.

[Father H]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

your tired and laughable appeal to emotion

Its an American tradition.  Would you deny Americans their right to tradition?  You surely must be a Hitler-worshipping plantation owner.  

What will you argue now that your attempt to manipulate my emotions has failed? Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

lol, yep, that's probably coming next.  

I am deeply perturbed that you consider it seemly to ask such questions while calling yourself a Christian. The answers cannot be any different to those I have given above.

Exactly

[Father H]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

What are you going on about? 
How can you be Orthodox and a pro-abort?  I assume your priest taught you basic Orthodox Christian moral theology and the commandments. 

[age234]

I am deeply perturbed by the lack of compassion among the pro-life crowd.

I am deeply perturbed at your lack of compassion for innocent human life.

I agree entirely, but ultimately when it all came down to it, I would still leave her with the final decision whether she wants to abort or not, and if she still decided upon an abortion--after everything else I had tried--then I would take her to get one and wouldn't hinder or judge her for it at all.

In the eyes of the law, a 13-year-old does not have the judgment to drive, vote, live on their own, or have sex. (Heck, in some states a crisis pregnancy center is required to notify police if a 13-year-old comes in pregnant, regardless of the circumstances.)

If a teenager does not possess the judgment to do these things, she certainly doesn't have the judgment to decide whether she's going to take her child's life.

Call it coldhearted, but the right of an innocent child to exist trumps the any right the mother has to comfort.

As for the OP, I'm glad there is some sense of lawfulness in today's world. Murder is murder.

[ZealousZeal]

James, perhaps you are unaware that a pregnancy is considered full term at any point beyond 36 week. This "something undesirable" she removed is not a clump of cells or a weird, blobby-looking alien. This is a full term, viable baby. This woman has already been "burdened" for 9 months- labor could come at any second of any day at this point. This was senseless. And your "raped 13 year old daughter" scenario has absolutely nothing to do with the case in the OP. I suspect you know this, as I know you are an intelligent person.

[Shanghaiski]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Why would you deny life to an innocent child within her?

The girl can be supported through the pregnancy, given love and counseling, justice can be sought, and the baby can be given to a good family.

[CoptoGeek]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

[Agabus]

James, perhaps you are unaware that a pregnancy is considered full term at any point beyond 36 week. This "something undesirable" she removed is not a clump of cells or a weird, blobby-looking alien. This is a full term, viable baby.

Yeah, this is not the case of aborting a first-trimester fetus. The difference between a 39-week pregnancy and a newborn is location.

[jah777]

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

Yes, but when you believe in God you understand things differently.  I say this as a father of three daughters.  I would never under any circumstances counsel one of my daughters to have an abortion.  All life is in God's hands and is not ours to take.  I pray that my daughters would never have to be in such a position as you describe, but if something bad happened to them, an abortion on top of that would only become a greater burden upon their soul, and I too would then have my soul burdened as an accomplice to murder.  

[Papist]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Would you really want your 13 year old daughter to be complicit in murder? Why add the trauma of killing her own baby, to the trauma she has already suffered as the result of rape?

Oh, and btw, the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for the sake of rape/incest/life of the mother. The vast majority are performed as back up birth control.

[Shanghaiski]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Would you really want your 13 year old daughter to be complicit in murder? Why add the trauma of killing her own baby, to the trauma she has already suffered as the result of rape?

Oh, and btw, the VAST majority of abortions are not performed for the sake of rape/incest/life of the mother. The vast majority are performed as back up birth control.

And to prevent the horrible shame and societal scandal over unwed pregnancies...oh wait.

[JamesRottnek]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

[88Devin12]

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.

[Father H]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

Are you the same person as JamesR? 

[Mivac]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Yes I would stand opposed to an abortion.

[Agabus]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

Are you the same person as JamesR? 

He is not.

[Agabus]

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.

Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

[Melodist]

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.

Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?

[Papist]

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.

Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?

Good point.

[JamesRottnek]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

Are you the same person as JamesR? 

I really don't understand your point.  I didn't say that I like things the way they are, nor did I say that I would support liberalizing abortion laws.  But the fact remains, we most certainly do NOT have "unrestricted abortion" in this country.

[Agabus]

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.

Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?

Though you are taking a rabbinical tack, I appreciate it.

This clarifies much, and - believe it or not -- helps me a great deal in my own personal struggle.

[CoptoGeek]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

In any one of the States that does not have such restrictions, a woman can have an abortion at any time and it would not violate the law of the United States Federal Government.

And further, her abortion would very likely be subsidized by Federal spending in some manner.

[celticfan1888]

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

If a mother wanted to remove an 'undesirable' 5 year old from her home by killing it, would you feel the same? Under your logic, she gets to choose if she should take care of it.

You lack compassion for life my friend.

[Timon]

Rape is arguably the most evil thing that exists on the planet.  I would also say that abortion is one of the most evil things that exists on this planet.  Im not completely sure I'd know how to deal with the situation JamesR was talking about earlier. We're talking about one disgustingly evil act (abortion) having to happen as a result of another disgustingly evil act (rape).  Its certainly a complicated, horrific, and highly unlikely situation, especially with someone that young.  (Are all 13 yr olds even capable of pregnancy? Maybe so these days... i dunno.)

I hate when those hypothetical questions get brought up. It makes my brain want to explode.

As for the original news article, yea she should have got more than 8 years.

[sheenj]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

In any one of the States that does not have such restrictions, a woman can have an abortion at any time and it would not violate the law of the United States Federal Government.

And further, her abortion would very likely be subsidized by Federal spending in some manner.

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

[choy]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Why would I want to kill an innocent child?  An injustice already happened to the daughter, why do another one?

If this unfortunate event happens, I will raise the child as my own, given the youth of the daughter.  The child is completely innocent and deserves a life.

[choy]

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

Unfortunately here in Canada it is legal.  Oh wait, that is not the right term.  It is not legal, it is just not illegal.  We have no abortion laws, thus there is nothing that says whether it is legal or not.  So a woman in labor can have an abortion and there is no law to prosecute her.

[CoptoGeek]

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

[JamesRottnek]

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

I wish on OC.net we could click on any word in a post and have the definition immediately provided to us courtesy of Merriam-Webster.

[akimori makoto]

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

If a mother wanted to remove an 'undesirable' 5 year old from her home by killing it, would you feel the same? Under your logic, she gets to choose if she should take care of it.

You lack compassion for life my friend.

Compassion has nothing to do with it. It is about being firmly on the other side of the political divide to those nasty Anglo-Celts and their CEOs, &c., &c.

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Yes, I would deny her an abortion. Why would I want to heap the trauma of abortion on top of everything else she suffered? Abortion is not a cure for rape, and pregnancy is not a disease. If my daughter had been violated by a rapist, the last thing I'd want would be to have her violated again by the deadly instruments of abortion.


Selam

[akimori makoto]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Yes, I would deny her an abortion. Why would I want to heap the trauma of abortion on top of everything else she suffered? Abortion is not a cure for rape, and pregnancy is not a disease. If my daughter had been violated by a rapist, the last thing I'd want would be to have her violated again by the deadly instruments of abortion.


Selam

Thinking aloud and flipping around the question somewhat, I wonder if it would be legal to forcibly subject one's own child to an abortion procedure, given that parental authority is not legally unlimited (especially in the case of potentially traumatic medical procedures).

An unwanted abortion is not unlike a rape in some ways (invasive of bodily integrity, contact with sex organs, contrariness to will), and it is certainly not legal to consent to the rape of one's daughter by another.

[ialmisry]

Rape is arguably the most evil thing that exists on the planet.  I would also say that abortion is one of the most evil things that exists on this planet.  Im not completely sure I'd know how to deal with the situation JamesR was talking about earlier. We're talking about one disgustingly evil act (abortion) having to happen as a result of another disgustingly evil act (rape).  Its certainly a complicated, horrific, and highly unlikely situation, especially with someone that young.  (Are all 13 yr olds even capable of pregnancy? Maybe so these days... i dunno.)

I hate when those hypothetical questions get brought up. It makes my brain want to explode.

As for the original news article, yea she should have got more than 8 years.

Not all 13 yr olds are capable, but the number of those not yet fertile is dwindling in much of the world (the reason why a few years back the advice was floated to increase pre-teen exercise for girls, to delay the onset of menarchy).

[ialmisry]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Yes, I would deny her an abortion. Why would I want to heap the trauma of abortion on top of everything else she suffered? Abortion is not a cure for rape, and pregnancy is not a disease. If my daughter had been violated by a rapist, the last thing I'd want would be to have her violated again by the deadly instruments of abortion.


Selam

Thinking aloud and flipping around the question somewhat, I wonder if it would be legal to forcibly subject one's own child to an abortion procedure, given that parental authority is not legally unlimited (especially in the case of potentially traumatic medical procedures).

An unwanted abortion is not unlike a rape in some ways (invasive of bodily integrity, contact with sex organs, contrariness to will), and it is certainly not legal to consent to the rape of one's daughter by another.

Indeed.  Most of these "voluntary" abortions are forced on the mother by her family or boyfriend.

[Achronos]

The problem of rape and abortion has always been a big hurdle for me in my pro-life stance. I should just take it as the baby didn't choose to be conceived by rape, and end the contemplation altogether but it's an unwanted pregnancy too.

[sheenj]

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

Yeah, that's still a restriction on abortion...

[CoptoGeek]

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

Yeah, that's still a restriction on abortion...

OK, Sheenj. Then how about this. The United States has no federal restriction, up to the moment of birth, on when an abortion can be performed.

[JamesRottnek]

The partial-birth abortion ban is nationwide, which invalidates your unrestricted abortion claim.

No, it doesn't. Only one specific abortion "procedure" is banned federally, not abortion at any time.

Yeah, that's still a restriction on abortion...

OK, Sheenj. Then how about this. The United States has no federal restriction, up to the moment of birth, on when an abortion can be performed.

Federation

[orthonorm]

Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

Well he can't use the short card either . . .

But I will give him plenty of other material to work with.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

To address the OP issue, if this women committed this in the US she would have equally been convicted, and had a physician directly administered the drugs, they would have been sentenced perhaps to even MORE jail time than the 8 years (which by the way, is indeed a lengthy sentence, lets get off our high horses here, most studies have concluded that 7 years in prison is essentially life in the sense that a person's entire life is destroyed by the experience, their social support systems, their sense of identity, their personal agency to succeed, all if it devastated, so as far as punishments go, several years in prison is harsh enough truly, adding more or less years just becomes petty and overtly vindictive)

To address JamesR comments..

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American.  However, it is more complicated than this.  9 out of 10 women express regret and even remorse after having abortions.  Further, what ever happened to adoption? How are we burdening a woman with a pregnancy she didn't want? Reality is reality.  In our self-gratifying world of modernism, we think everything should happen exactly as we'd like or want it to be, instantly and even selfishly.  Did the woman ask to get raped? Of course not, that would be disgusting to even remotely suggest. However, life is complicated by the reality that most of what occurs is NOT what we want, and rarely what we'd like, most often is a struggle.  We learn to readjust with our struggles through a sense of human dignity.  Life is precious, we overcome all struggles in the hopes to spare life.  How to live is an entirely different matter, but to give every human being just the chance alone to live their own lives is the key.  A woman may feel her life burdened by the circumstance, but she has to deal with her cards as they were dealt to her, such is life.  It can't be changed, avoided, rescinded, or revoked.  Abortion will not magically solve that problem.  The woman still has the trauma and psychological scars of rape, she still was pregnant, she still remembers that.  If anything, the trauma that what should have been a blessing to her (i.e. having a child) became a burden might actually make the woman feel even more victimized, more antagonized, more abused by circumstance. However and again, such is life.  We have to pick up the pieces of our lives as best we are able.  How can a woman know that abortion will somehow make her life any better after a rape just because it seems to make it easier? We and she can't predict the full psychological let alone spiritual impact of that.

Specifically to address JamesR question, if it were my rhetorical daughter we would have to prepare our family for a new member if it were consensual.  If she were raped or sexually molested, well, we have the same struggle, but now we have an adoption to pursue, be it within the family or outside.  That is reality, we'd have to deal with.  Abortion wouldn't lessen the impact or the scarring from this tragedy, if anything, at least in MY OWN family, it would only make it worse.  Further and personally, I feel we are even a more horrendous society when we expect and even empower teenage girls to go at this alone in the first place.  As has been mentioned, teenagers don't have the sense of maturity and development to be able to fully cope with such trauma and responsibility. This is why we as the adults in their lives need to be mentors, need to be supportive, need to be there at ALL costs.  We have to take on these burdens and sacrifices to help our children.  We can't pretend that because it is hard for us, that we should let teenagers fend for themselves.  Current abortion laws empower teenagers to make these literally life-and-death decisions without any guidance or support from adults in their lives.  This has to change.  

No children, indeed no woman of any age, should have to make these kinds of decisions without support and love from other people.  Human beings are social beings, we NEED other people to live, this is why God made Eve for Adam in the first place.  When Cain complicated the matter by killing Abel what was God's response? Was it to kill Cain in retribution? Would that have healed Eve of her motherly pain and grief over the loss of both her sons by circumstance? Would that have healed Cain of his guilt? Would that have resurrected Abel? The truth is Eve was consoled, Cain was absolved, and Abel was resurrected not by judgement or wrath, but by forgiveness, compassion, and love.  These are how we solve this same current moral dilemma facing our society.  

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[vamrat]

The problem of rape and abortion has always been a big hurdle for me in my pro-life stance. I should just take it as the baby didn't choose to be conceived by rape, and end the contemplation altogether but it's an unwanted pregnancy too.

Someone who has been murdered or maimed likewise did not choose what fate befell them but all the same must bear it's consequences.  That is why rape is evil.  There are many things a woman who was raped will suffer through.  That's why I rather focus on sending the rapist to meet his eternal judge than on killing the child and compounding the suffering.

[dzheremi]

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American.  

The demographics of this website make it very likely that the vast majority of those people rejecting JamesR's ideas in this thread are likewise Americans. I do not see how this kind of talk is helpful.

[akimori makoto]

Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

Well he can't use the short card either . . .

But I will give him plenty of other material to work with.

You're so mean, but amusingly good at it.

[celticfan1888]

The fact that she is a 'criminal' for removing something undesirable from her body

If a mother wanted to remove an 'undesirable' 5 year old from her home by killing it, would you feel the same? Under your logic, she gets to choose if she should take care of it.

You lack compassion for life my friend.

Compassion has nothing to do with it. It is about being firmly on the other side of the political divide to those nasty Anglo-Celts and their CEOs, &c., &c.

 

[celticfan1888]

NEVERMIND

[orthonorm]

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.

Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?

Though you are taking a rabbinical tack, I appreciate it.

This clarifies much, and - believe it or not -- helps me a great deal in my own personal struggle.

The problem with putting the problem in this manner is that too many people concentrate on the "becoming flesh" and not the "dwelling".

Really the salient question is, when did the Word become a person?

How did the Word become a person and how should that inform Christian thought on personhood. And one gives an accounts of the personhood of the Persons of the Trinity one then has to account for the reasons why for humans persons come to be and cease to be.

I was pursuing this in another thread, but the interest was underwhelming. People would rather take up some sorta axiomatic approach to "life" or a "scientific" one.

Perhaps I'll go back to that thread and keep plodding ahead and take care of Gebre's obvious mistaken position in the private section where this issue came up and he "replied" to a post of mine in his typically confused manner.

But all this will probably happen post election or so. I am crazy busy among other things till then.

[orthonorm]

Will you resort to calling me a Republican or a southerner or some other such non-sense?

Well he can't use the short card either . . .

But I will give him plenty of other material to work with.

You're so mean, but amusingly good at it.

I'd rather be mean than average.

[Melodist]

The problem with putting the problem in this manner is that too many people concentrate on the "becoming flesh" and not the "dwelling".

I equate the two.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American. 

The demographics of this website make it very likely that the vast majority of those people rejecting JamesR's ideas in this thread are likewise Americans. I do not see how this kind of talk is helpful.

It is helpful because Americans like ourselves can better understand the situation if we step back and understand certain aspects of ourselves. We can understand our motivations, our feelings, and our actions based on our cultural tendencies, ways of thinking, and patterns of behavior. Again, American culture in the modern world has become one of instant-gratification, and I feel both abortion itself and also many peoples' attempts at a solution are equally shallow and a result of this self-serving instant gratification mentality.  We Americans need to understand as other cultures know, the slow down sometimes, to see the bigger picture, to think about and work towards in empathy with other people.  Further, this anti-injustice attitude of most Americans can create contradictory conflicts, where folks knee-jerk react both favor and opposition to abortion.  We need to all take a pause for the cause and reflect.  To JamesR, he needs to pause and reflect on is restricting abortion ACTUALLY an injustice or a benefit?  To pro-life folks like many of us here, we need to pause and reflect on how much as a community we actually support mothers and pregnant women rather then just promoting social policies and community actions which only serve to victimize women thinking about an abortion without actually and directly supporting ALL pregnant women as the good Russian Father specifies in the thread Brother Gebre Menfes Kiddus posted.

Really the salient question is, when did the Word become a person?

A human person exists from the moment of their Creation, and I understand in the Orthodox approach human life is created at conception.  When did the Word become a Person? Even before the Creation of Adam, indeed the Creation of anything the Word existed with His Father and the Holy Spirit.  The Trinity is Eternally Consubstantial.  When did the Word become Flesh and acquire a rational human body and soul? At the moment of Conception, called the Incarnation in Orthodox theology.  But come now, you already know all of this, what are you insinuating at more directly? Existentialism can be mysterious but doesn't have to be ambiguous

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[primuspilus]

imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do?

Love her and take care of her. Then I'd talk to her about adoption. However, if she wanted to keep the child, I would do my darndest to make sure she did not become a statistic by being a lifelong welfare recipient. Her education would not suffer, and I'd help her to the most of my ability.

And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested?

Since that does not change the worth of a human being.........

Would you really deny her an abortion?

If it did not endanger the life of the mother, absolutely.

Only to some folks is a inconvenience reason enough to commit murder. I pray our elderly are never in such "care".

Then again, if someone can de-humanize the young, its probably no problem doing for the old.

PP

[dzheremi]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

You are a young man, and youth feel readily impassioned.  Further you are and American, and whenever Americans have any sense of perceived injustice, their instinct reaction is, "F-word that S-word!"  Even if their reaction is a contradiction, they will want to fight both!  So when you perceive a supposed injustice against a raped woman, you're reaction is predictably American. 

The demographics of this website make it very likely that the vast majority of those people rejecting JamesR's ideas in this thread are likewise Americans. I do not see how this kind of talk is helpful.

It is helpful because Americans like ourselves can better understand the situation if we step back and understand certain aspects of ourselves. We can understand our motivations, our feelings, and our actions based on our cultural tendencies, ways of thinking, and patterns of behavior.

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

Dude, you read that so wrong.  You noticed I used inclusive words like ours, we, and us? I wasn't trying to be condescending, just honest.  As an American, that is my own personal assessment of American culture, and it is quite prevalent.  If you feel I am stereotyping Americans, I apologize, I don't feel that way.  I am talking about a cultural tendency towards instant-gratification, towards self-asserting thinking.  No, I don't think all Americans think like teenagers venting on the internet, but I do indeed think that a common theme of American culture is instant gratification. If anything, how you've just gotten all defensive as if my comments about American culture were directed at you personally is revealing to how this is a cultural trait of being American.  I wasn't necessarily talking about you in anyway, and yet you instantly inserted yourself into the equation and began a defensive argument with me. Further, this analysis somehow equates to intolerance or bigotry?  Interesting  



stay blessed,
habte selassie

[William]

I never said I would encourage her to have an abortion, but allow her to have one in the end if she really decided upon it. You may be right about the psychological affects that come along with abortion, but then again, I'm sure there are also psychological affects that come along with her having to endure pregnancy at such a young age and then risk her life giving birth. I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth. And I would condemn anyone who would.

James. You really need to educate yourself on the physical and psychological effects of abortion before making these weird posts.

[Jonathan Gress]

Simply put, if you don't believe life begins at conception and the child is of equal human value as an adult, you cannot be Orthodox.

Both ideas are intimately tied with our Christology and a denial of either inevitably distorts the incarnation.

Do explain. Clearly, for I am not a bright man.

At what point during Mary's pregnancy did the Word bcome flesh and dwell among us?

Though you are taking a rabbinical tack, I appreciate it.

This clarifies much, and - believe it or not -- helps me a great deal in my own personal struggle.

The problem with putting the problem in this manner is that too many people concentrate on the "becoming flesh" and not the "dwelling".

Really the salient question is, when did the Word become a person?

How did the Word become a person and how should that inform Christian thought on personhood. And one gives an accounts of the personhood of the Persons of the Trinity one then has to account for the reasons why for humans persons come to be and cease to be.

I was pursuing this in another thread, but the interest was underwhelming. People would rather take up some sorta axiomatic approach to "life" or a "scientific" one.

Perhaps I'll go back to that thread and keep plodding ahead and take care of Gebre's obvious mistaken position in the private section where this issue came up and he "replied" to a post of mine in his typically confused manner.

But all this will probably happen post election or so. I am crazy busy among other things till then.

Do human persons cease to be?

[primuspilus]

I won't force my daughter to risk her life and give birth. And I would condemn anyone who would.

Right now, I would value your opinion on parenting about as much as I'd value a vegetarian commenting on how bad a steak was......

I really think you need to read up on the stories of women who have had abortions and have regretted it. Sadly most folks who offer abortions have no problem offering that "solution" first.

PP

[Mivac]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

Dude, you read that so wrong.  You noticed I used inclusive words like ours, we, and us? I wasn't trying to be condescending, just honest.  As an American, that is my own personal assessment of American culture, and it is quite prevalent.  If you feel I am stereotyping Americans, I apologize, I don't feel that way.  I am talking about a cultural tendency towards instant-gratification, towards self-asserting thinking.  No, I don't think all Americans think like teenagers venting on the internet, but I do indeed think that a common theme of American culture is instant gratification. If anything, how you've just gotten all defensive as if my comments about American culture were directed at you personally is revealing to how this is a cultural trait of being American.  I wasn't necessarily talking about you in anyway, and yet you instantly inserted yourself into the equation and began a defensive argument with me. Further, this analysis somehow equates to intolerance or bigotry?  Interesting  



stay blessed,
habte selassie

I don't see you as intolerant or bigoted but have in fact spoken truth when it comes to American culture.  The Evidence is out there, just look at marketing of goods and services, fast food, convenient stores, and credit cards, etc. etc.  All geared to one thing instant gratification, get it now, buy buy buy culture, if something gets in the way of what you want dump it, that would include spouses, children, jobs, spiritual life, etc.   

[Kerdy]

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP

This was what I first thought.

[Kerdy]

Why would someone do a thing like that 

Lord, have mercy!

Selfishness and evil.

[Kerdy]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

Yes.  Anything else you are wondering about we can clear up?

[jmbejdl]

Sad she only got 8 years.

PP

This was what I first thought.

Particularly when you consider that this most likely means that she'll be out in 4 and that will include any time spent on remand.

James

[JR]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

Dude, you read that so wrong.  You noticed I used inclusive words like ours, we, and us? I wasn't trying to be condescending, just honest.  As an American, that is my own personal assessment of American culture, and it is quite prevalent.  If you feel I am stereotyping Americans, I apologize, I don't feel that way.  I am talking about a cultural tendency towards instant-gratification, towards self-asserting thinking.  No, I don't think all Americans think like teenagers venting on the internet, but I do indeed think that a common theme of American culture is instant gratification. If anything, how you've just gotten all defensive as if my comments about American culture were directed at you personally is revealing to how this is a cultural trait of being American.  I wasn't necessarily talking about you in anyway, and yet you instantly inserted yourself into the equation and began a defensive argument with me. Further, this analysis somehow equates to intolerance or bigotry?  Interesting  



stay blessed,
habte selassie

I don't see you as intolerant or bigoted but have in fact spoken truth when it comes to American culture.  The Evidence is out there, just look at marketing of goods and services, fast food, convenient stores, and credit cards, etc. etc.  All geared to one thing instant gratification, get it now, buy buy buy culture, if something gets in the way of what you want dump it, that would include spouses, children, jobs, spiritual life, etc.   

Very sad way of life you have in America.....!

A friend of mine (Greek) said she lived in America for a couple of years, she said it is all work, work, work..... She couldn't wait to get back to Greece as she said Americans don't know how to enjoy life or the simple things.

 

[Kerdy]

...How is making one's unborn grandchild a victim of abortion really helping your daughter as an innocent victim of rape?

For starters, how about not having to spend the next 9 months enduring the burdens of pregnancy and then having to risk her life and endure excruciating pain by giving birth to a child that she never consented to? Duh.

Or, you can help her be a responsible parent and show her how much you love her and then she can pass that love onto her child and the child can see even though it was conceived through a violent act of crime, it has a purpose and is loved, thus returning that love...duh.

[Kerdy]

To all anti-abortion people here: imagine you had a thirteen year old daughter and she got pregnant, what would you do? And what would you do if she got pregnant from being raped/molested? Would you really deny her an abortion?

You do realize this type of scenario is a very rare percentage of all abortions, don't you?

[Kerdy]

I don't know if this is even illegal in the US.

Yes, its perfectly legal in the US which is one of only four nations in the world that allows unrestricted abortions.  The other three are China, North Korea, and Canada.

We allow unrestricted abortion?

The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban prohibits partial-birth abortions on a national level.

41 states prohibit abortion after a particular point in the pregnancy.

17 states mandate counseling before an abortion.

21 states require an abortion take place in a hospital after a particular point in the pregnancy.

39 states require a licensed physician to perform the abortion.

20 states require a second physician be involved after a certain point in the pregnancy.

26 states have mandatory waiting periods before an abortion can be performed.

37 states require parental involvement in an abortion involving their minor child.

40 states prohibit third term abortions (with many of these prohibiting earlier than that and North Dakota prohibiting after 12 weeks, explicitly).

Yep, that does sound like "unrestricted abortion."

In any one of the States that does not have such restrictions, a woman can have an abortion at any time and it would not violate the law of the United States Federal Government.

And further, her abortion would very likely be subsidized by Federal spending in some manner.

I must agree with James on this.  Even in America, land of sinful pleasure, this would be a crime.

[akimori makoto]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And you think all "Americans" have the same feelings and "cultural tendencies" (whatever that means)? And that you know what those are so you can claim a person's reaction is "predictably American"? Cos that sounds like regular old stereotyping and prejudice to me. And your defense of it above is kind of ridiculous. All it's helping me understand is that you think all Americans think and behave like 16-year-old internet children. Even if that's right (and I don't think it is), pointing that out doesn't help JamesR.

But if you think your own set of prejudices against Americans can help people better understand something other than your own biases, then by all means, continue posting...it seems rather uncharacteristic of your usual calls for respect and understanding, but I guess that call does not hold for Americans discussing other Americans, only Americans discussing foreign ideologies and people. Now that's predictable, but not of "Americans" as a thing, but of a certain mindset.

Dude, you read that so wrong.  You noticed I used inclusive words like ours, we, and us? I wasn't trying to be condescending, just honest.  As an American, that is my own personal assessment of American culture, and it is quite prevalent.  If you feel I am stereotyping Americans, I apologize, I don't feel that way.  I am talking about a cultural tendency towards instant-gratification, towards self-asserting thinking.  No, I don't think all Americans think like teenagers venting on the internet, but I do indeed think that a common theme of American culture is instant gratification. If anything, how you've just gotten all defensive as if my comments about American culture were directed at you personally is revealing to how this is a cultural trait of being American.  I wasn't necessarily talking about you in anyway, and yet you instantly inserted yourself into the equation and began a defensive argument with me. Further, this analysis somehow equates to intolerance or bigotry?  Interesting  



stay blessed,
habte selassie

I don't see you as intolerant or bigoted but have in fact spoken truth when it comes to American culture.  The Evidence is out there, just look at marketing of goods and services, fast food, convenient stores, and credit cards, etc. etc.  All geared to one thing instant gratification, get it now, buy buy buy culture, if something gets in the way of what you want dump it, that would include spouses, children, jobs, spiritual life, etc.   

Very sad way of life you have in America.....!

A friend of mine (Greek) said she lived in America for a couple of years, she said it is all work, work, work..... She couldn't wait to get back to Greece as she said Americans don't know how to enjoy life or the simple things.

 

The Greeks should be embarrassed to open their mouths in such a way.

[Achronos]

Ah, yes, the American Workaholic syndrome. But she does have a valid point that many Americans miss the simple things and pleasures in life. We need to free ourselves from the mundanity of clockwork.

Be honest with yourselves, who truly wants to actually work?

[akimori makoto]

Ah, yes, the American Workaholic syndrome. But she does have a valid point that many Americans miss the simple things and pleasures in life. We need to free ourselves from the mundanity of clockwork.

Be honest with yourselves, who truly wants to actually work?

There are two choices:

1. Work less and have less; or
2. Work more and have more.

I would not criticise a person for choosing option no. 1, but the Greeks wish to have a third option: work less and have more.

[Achronos]

Ah, yes, the American Workaholic syndrome. But she does have a valid point that many Americans miss the simple things and pleasures in life. We need to free ourselves from the mundanity of clockwork.

Be honest with yourselves, who truly wants to actually work?

There are two choices:

1. Work less and have less; or
2. Work more and have more.

I would not criticise a person for choosing option no. 1, but the Greeks wish to have a third option: work less and have more.

And so does everyone else, if they were honest.

Truth be told, with techonology and automation, we should be working less and having more. Look at the overabundance of food we have, it's really marvelous.

The basic necessities of life should no longer require "work". We should be working towards more satisfying things, in art, science, etc.

BTW: My father, the hardest working American btw, worked countless hours but had much less than the beurocrats that ran things. Working more =/= having more.

I don't care if that ancedotal, and there are plenty of other people who can back me up.

EDIT 2: I've seen plenty of people work less, let alone being born into, and having much more than those that work the hardest. Such a cruel irony such is life.

[akimori makoto]

Ah, yes, the American Workaholic syndrome. But she does have a valid point that many Americans miss the simple things and pleasures in life. We need to free ourselves from the mundanity of clockwork.

Be honest with yourselves, who truly wants to actually work?

There are two choices:

1. Work less and have less; or
2. Work more and have more.

I would not criticise a person for choosing option no. 1, but the Greeks wish to have a third option: work less and have more.

And so does everyone else, if they were honest.

Truth be told, with techonology and automation, we should be working less and having more. Look at the overabundance of food we have, it's really marvelous.

The basic necessities of life should no longer require "work". We should be working towards more satisfying things, in art, science, etc.

BTW: My father, the hardest working American btw, worked countless hours but had much less than the beurocrats that ran things. Working more =/= having more.

I don't care if that ancedotal, and there are plenty of other people who can back me up.

No, if you do not work, you die. That is a biological reality that appears increasingly more abstract because of the technological advances you mention.

I won't say more because I have already driven the thread off-topic.

[Achronos]

If I was to make a new thread about it, would you contribute to it? I'm interested in how work is a biological reality. Perhaps this work you speak of needs a definition, because I see work in a different way.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Ah, yes, the American Workaholic syndrome. But she does have a valid point that many Americans miss the simple things and pleasures in life. We need to free ourselves from the mundanity of clockwork.

Be honest with yourselves, who truly wants to actually work?

There are two choices:

1. Work less and have less; or
2. Work more and have more.

I would not criticise a person for choosing option no. 1, but the Greeks wish to have a third option: work less and have more.

That is not true, there are plenty of Americans who work harder and harder and yet never gain any traction, never "have more" and there are plenty of Americans who by comparison work much less and do indeed have much more.  I agree with several posters here, data shows that Americans on average work more hours daily and weekly than any other developed nation, and further, in our largely material society, Americans often work hard and long and yet have piles of material possessions, but do not have solidarity, community, and family.  We all seem to work hard, some of us to simply survive, others to stockpile possessions and the expense of spending time with their families and being involved in their communities.  This is a cultural matter, not a political or economic one.  It largely seems part of American culture to have this exaggerated work ethic, and to have this pride in materialism.  Even relatively humble Americans often equate an increase in possessions as being an increase in success.  I disagree with that mentality, I feel less is more and more is less, less stuff= more family, more community, more stuff=less community, less family.

Many middle class families work 40-50 hours a week, both parents, and associate with paying their bills for their middleclass lifestyle as being family.  Just paying the bills is indeed noble, and many poor folks work too hard and still can't even do that, but paying bills is not all there is too life, it is not all that is important in family.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Achronos]

Thank you Habte.

Life is not about bills. Amen.

[akimori makoto]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Ah, yes, the American Workaholic syndrome. But she does have a valid point that many Americans miss the simple things and pleasures in life. We need to free ourselves from the mundanity of clockwork.

Be honest with yourselves, who truly wants to actually work?

There are two choices:

1. Work less and have less; or
2. Work more and have more.

I would not criticise a person for choosing option no. 1, but the Greeks wish to have a third option: work less and have more.

That is not true, there are plenty of Americans who work harder and harder and yet never gain any traction, never "have more" and there are plenty of Americans who by comparison work much less and do indeed have much more.  I agree with several posters here, data shows that Americans on average work more hours daily and weekly than any other developed nation, and further, in our largely material society, Americans often work hard and long and yet have piles of material possessions, but do not have solidarity, community, and family.  We all seem to work hard, some of us to simply survive, others to stockpile possessions and the expense of spending time with their families and being involved in their communities.  This is a cultural matter, not a political or economic one.  It largely seems part of American culture to have this exaggerated work ethic, and to have this pride in materialism.  Even relatively humble Americans often equate an increase in possessions as being an increase in success.  I disagree with that mentality, I feel less is more and more is less, less stuff= more family, more community, more stuff=less community, less family.

Many middle class families work 40-50 hours a week, both parents, and associate with paying their bills for their middleclass lifestyle as being family.  Just paying the bills is indeed noble, and many poor folks work too hard and still can't even do that, but paying bills is not all there is too life, it is not all that is important in family.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Habte, you seem to be saying that Americans work very hard and also have lots of material things. That is no different to what I am saying.

All I am saying is that, ceteris paribus, one obtains more material things by labouring -- one does not obtain material things through not labouring, except at the expense of someone else's labouring.

I would not dare to object to your statements regarding other things being more important than material things. I have not suggested otherwise. I don't know how my words could have been construed that way on any sensible construction.

[Quinault]

Just a note:  our youngest was born at 36 weeks. My brothers were born at 28 weeks. A baby born at 36 weeks has an excellent chance of survival with spontaneous labor. I suspect there is more to this story. At 39 weeks, I wouldbet anything the baby was born alive, then killed.

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