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Anastasia1
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« on: September 15, 2012, 08:51:59 PM »

I have heard of the Jesus prayer, "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on, a sinner."  I learned this from Catholics but heard it was used in the EO churches.  Is this common in the OO churches?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 08:52:25 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2012, 09:56:10 PM »

I have heard of the Jesus prayer, "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on, a sinner."  I learned this from Catholics but heard it was used in the EO churches.  Is this common in the OO churches?
I don't know about the others but it's not in the Syrian tradition. That shouldn't stop anyone from using it though; it's a very beautiful prayer, short and sweet, and to the point.
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Hiwot
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2012, 08:27:03 PM »

In the Ethiopian tradition we do not call the prayer the ' Jesus Prayer' if you say that people will think it is the Lord's Prayer the " Our Father" . we call the prayer we pray with the aide our prayer beads or with the lines of our fingers ' the Arrow prayer' it has lots of variety of forms but is usually prayed in the shortest form i.e. " Lord have mercy " Lord have mercy on me a sinner" 'Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me!" "Lord Christ have mercy one me a sinner" "hear us O Lord, Our God and our Savior!"there are other versions of arrow prayers ' for the sake of Mary Christ have mercy on us!" and one can insert the name of a saint one chooses and pray that way also. it gets even shorter fervent calling out, "O Christ!" " O Lord!".
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2012, 08:30:00 PM »

The Jesus Prayer is something I've only encountered from the EO, and to my knowledge is not a part of the Armenian tradition.
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2012, 08:44:58 PM »

I've found some writings by modern Copts that mention that this is a good prayer to pray, such as some of the writings of HG Bishop Mettaous, but nothing that indicates that it is a part of Coptic tradition. Can anyone provide evidence of it being used historically in the Coptic Church?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 08:45:35 PM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2012, 08:50:51 PM »

The simple phrase "Lord have mercy" ("Der voghormya") is definitely a part of the Armenian tradition and, as I understand it, that is the basic root of the Jesus Prayer.  Its usage, however, has not been as elaborately developed by our Church as it has been among the EO's.  
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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2012, 08:58:43 PM »

I've found some writings by modern Copts that mention that this is a good prayer to pray, such as some of the writings of HG Bishop Mettaous, but nothing that indicates that it is a part of Coptic tradition. Can anyone provide evidence of it being used historically in the Coptic Church?

See EA's post here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12740.msg173806.html#msg173806
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Aram
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2012, 09:00:58 PM »

The simple phrase "Lord have mercy" ("Der voghormya") is definitely a part of the Armenian tradition and, as I understand it, that is the basic root of the Jesus Prayer.  Its usage, however, has not been as elaborately developed by our Church as it has been among the EO's.  
Der Voghormya is not the same thing as the Jesus Prayer. Maybe the same vague idea, but Armenians do not have the Jesus Prayer as it is constituted and understood in the EO world.
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Hiwot
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2012, 09:16:55 PM »

I've found some writings by modern Copts that mention that this is a good prayer to pray, such as some of the writings of HG Bishop Mettaous, but nothing that indicates that it is a part of Coptic tradition. Can anyone provide evidence of it being used historically in the Coptic Church?

See EA's post here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12740.msg173806.html#msg173806

thank you Salpy, the prayer beads are also called Mequtaria in Ethiopia as well literally translates as ' to count with' they come in numbers of 33,41, 64, 100 and more. but the first three are the most common ones.

the sound the beads make as the christian prays with them is said to be like thunder to the ears of demons although soft and soothing to the person who hears them Smiley
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 09:19:35 PM by Hiwot » Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2012, 09:22:28 PM »

The simple phrase "Lord have mercy" ("Der voghormya") is definitely a part of the Armenian tradition and, as I understand it, that is the basic root of the Jesus Prayer.  Its usage, however, has not been as elaborately developed by our Church as it has been among the EO's. 
Der Voghormya is not the same thing as the Jesus Prayer. Maybe the same vague idea, but Armenians do not have the Jesus Prayer as it is constituted and understood in the EO world.

Edit Smiley Hi Aram, in Armenia, is there a prayer bead used by the monks?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 09:41:49 PM by Hiwot » Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2012, 09:32:25 PM »

Thanks, Salpy. I know that the prayer rope is a part of the Coptic tradition, but I was asking about the Jesus Prayer. Like EA writes there, it is more common to use to pray the 41 Kyrie eleisons with it, not the Jesus Prayer.
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2012, 09:50:21 PM »

The simple phrase "Lord have mercy" ("Der voghormya") is definitely a part of the Armenian tradition and, as I understand it, that is the basic root of the Jesus Prayer.  Its usage, however, has not been as elaborately developed by our Church as it has been among the EO's. 
Der Voghormya is not the same thing as the Jesus Prayer. Maybe the same vague idea, but Armenians do not have the Jesus Prayer as it is constituted and understood in the EO world.

Edit Smiley Hi Aram, in Armenia, is there a prayer bead used by the monks?
No. Armenian culture includes worry beads, which is borrowed from other middle eastern cultures, but there isn't really a religious connotation there. We don't really have a tradition of prayer ropes or beads.
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Hiwot
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2012, 09:52:17 PM »

The simple phrase "Lord have mercy" ("Der voghormya") is definitely a part of the Armenian tradition and, as I understand it, that is the basic root of the Jesus Prayer.  Its usage, however, has not been as elaborately developed by our Church as it has been among the EO's. 
Der Voghormya is not the same thing as the Jesus Prayer. Maybe the same vague idea, but Armenians do not have the Jesus Prayer as it is constituted and understood in the EO world.

Edit Smiley Hi Aram, in Armenia, is there a prayer bead used by the monks?
No. Armenian culture includes worry beads, which is borrowed from other middle eastern cultures, but there isn't really a religious connotation there. We don't really have a tradition of prayer ropes or beads.

Thank you Aram, I did not know that. Smiley
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2013, 09:58:14 PM »

I just watched this video where he talks about doing the Jesus Prayer for 2 hours at an Indian Orthodox monastery (around the 2 minute mark). Interesting.
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 10:12:37 PM »

And that's not the only thing odd: "Thok te ti gom" in an Indian monastery?! Shocked Smiley
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xOrthodox4Christx
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2013, 10:15:45 PM »

I have heard of the Jesus prayer, "Lord Jesus, Son of God, have mercy on, a sinner."  I learned this from Catholics but heard it was used in the EO churches.  Is this common in the OO churches?
I don't know about the others but it's not in the Syrian tradition. That shouldn't stop anyone from using it though; it's a very beautiful prayer, short and sweet, and to the point.

I have heard that Coptic monks use the 'Jesus prayer'.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 10:41:00 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2013, 10:39:29 PM »

And that's not the only thing odd: "Thok te ti gom" in an Indian monastery?! Shocked Smiley

I'm not quite sure I understand.
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2013, 10:46:51 PM »

As I understand it there are basically no Copts in India, so it is unusual to hear a Coptic hymn (Thok te ti gom) being prayed in an Indian Orthodox monastery. Of course later in the video (after I had posted that...), he mentions that the trip offered the opportunity for dialogue with Indian OO who had never met Coptic Christians before, and didn't know what Coptic Orthodoxy was like. So that provides the likely context for their chanting (I notice that the priest who had just chanted the Qadishat is sitting next to them as they chant), but in terms of a juxtaposition, it's very interesting to see. Think of it like Georgians visiting an Antiochian monastery full of Arabs and doing their traditional polyphonic chanting there. Nothing wrong with it, but it is not the usual setting in which that would happen.  
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2013, 10:48:26 PM »

As I understand it there are basically no Copts in India, so it is unusual to hear a Coptic hymn (Thok te ti gom) being prayed in an Indian Orthodox monastery. Of course later in the video (after I had posted that...), he mentions that the trip offered the opportunity for dialogue with Indian OO who had never met Coptic Christians before, and didn't know what Coptic Orthodoxy was like. So that provides the likely context for their chanting (I notice that the priest who had just chanted the Qadishat is sitting next to them as they chant), but in terms of a juxtaposition, it's very interesting to see. Think of it like Georgians visiting an Antiochian monastery full of Arabs and doing their traditional polyphonic chanting there. Nothing wrong with it, but it is not the usual setting in which that would happen.  

I see what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying that for my uninformed self. Tongue
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 01:26:17 AM »

Think of it like Georgians visiting an Antiochian monastery full of Arabs and doing their traditional polyphonic chanting there. Nothing wrong with it, but it is not the usual setting in which that would happen. 

That did happen at Vatopaidi (well, among mostly Greeks, not Arabs).
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 01:37:55 AM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 08:51:33 PM »

I've found some writings by modern Copts that mention that this is a good prayer to pray, such as some of the writings of HG Bishop Mettaous, but nothing that indicates that it is a part of Coptic tradition. Can anyone provide evidence of it being used historically in the Coptic Church?

Some one told me that when Pope Kyrollos was their father in confession, obviously many years ago, he told them to stop praying the Agpeya and only pray the Jesus prayer until he told them otherwise.

When we sing Ps 150 at every Sacrament, including every Liturgy we, conclude with "O my Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, hear us and have mercy upon us."

As Salpy indicated, the exact phrase known as "the Jesus prayer" by the EO today has not been such a rigid formula. But the Arrow prayer, a short, one line prayer repeated in times of distress, in combat of thoughts, or even ceaselessly, comes right from the Egyptian Desert from the earliest ascetic fathers. Wether just "Lord have mercy", a single like from a Ps, or "O my Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner", the arrow prayer is an authentic part of our pre-schism tradition.
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