OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 02:04:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Bishops blast Coptic Christians behind anti-Muslim film  (Read 1677 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« on: September 15, 2012, 07:37:41 PM »

(RNS) Coptic Christian leaders in the United States distanced themselves from an anti-Muslim film that has sparked protests in more than 20 countries, and denounced the Copts who reportedly produced and promoted the film.

“We reject any allegation that the Coptic Orthodox community has contributed to the production of this film," the Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of America said in statement on Friday (Sept. 14). "Indeed, the producers of this film have taken these unwise and offensive actions independently and should be held responsible for their own actions.”
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2012, 07:39:42 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 07:40:43 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2012, 07:44:32 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?

Yes, individuals should be held responsible for their own evil actions.

That Coptic Christian should have been in contact with his Priest and his Bishop before producing and then posting that inflammatory film on the Internet. There is no excuse for his actions. He acted like he was the infallible Pope. That is foolhardy as the Priest and Bishop would never have given him their blessing to do what he did. Now he has jeopardized the entire Coptic Christian community and the USA too.

Actually, a responsible action for the Coptic Community would be to excommunicate the man. However doing so may backfire, and turn some Coptics against their own bishops. The Bishops have to be so very careful. Let us pray for them.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 07:46:54 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2012, 07:50:58 PM »

Habte, I think, already posted a response from the Bishop who would be the "film maker's" Bishop, HG Bishop Serapion (it's in one of the many other threads on this situation, but I can't remember which), who said that the man belongs in the confessional chair, not the director's chair. Having seen the first few minutes of the "movie" in question (any more than that and I would have needed a brain enema), I believe that HG is 100% correct in his assessment of the situation.
Logged

Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,423



« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2012, 09:02:52 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?

Yes, it is. From the reports coming out this video didn't happen by accident.  Some of the people who acted in it say that that they were lied to about what the movie was about.  I have also read that the Arabic dubbing shows that the actors are saying different things in English and not the name "Mohammed".  So whoever did the dubbing purposely put a lie into the sound. The persons who planned and created it are at the very least responsible for making it with the falseness.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 09:03:39 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2012, 09:27:57 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?

Yes, individuals should be held responsible for their own evil actions.

That Coptic Christian should have been in contact with his Priest and his Bishop before producing and then posting that inflammatory film on the Internet. There is no excuse for his actions. He acted like he was the infallible Pope. That is foolhardy as the Priest and Bishop would never have given him their blessing to do what he did. Now he has jeopardized the entire Coptic Christian community and the USA too.

Actually, a responsible action for the Coptic Community would be to excommunicate the man. However doing so may backfire, and turn some Coptics against their own bishops. The Bishops have to be so very careful. Let us pray for them.

As I said, fear.  It's an attempt to remove the focus from the church and place it on someone who broke no laws.  Also, by saying hold him responsible, how exactly do you think this will be taken.  The opposing force only understands how to kill.  They just told them to kill him, even though that was not their intention.  Stop being afraid and stand up for yourself.  Otherwise, you (generic sense) will be destroyed.

Now you (specifically) blame this guy for all the woes against Christians.  That's simply dishonest. 
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2012, 09:31:30 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?

Yes, it is. From the reports coming out this video didn't happen by accident.  Some of the people who acted in it say that that they were lied to about what the movie was about.  I have also read that the Arabic dubbing shows that the actors are saying different things in English and not the name "Mohammed".  So whoever did the dubbing purposely put a lie into the sound. The persons who planned and created it are at the very least responsible for making it with the falseness.

You are right.  This man is the reason people are being murdered, an insult.  You know, I was given a dirty look earlier, maybe I should react the same way against someone I never met.  After all, the dirty look man is responsible, not me.  Right?
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2012, 09:34:20 PM »

Let us at the very least attempt to utilize common sense here.  Let's put the blame where it belongs.  On the violent and murderous cowards who pray for an excuse to kill innocents.
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,423



« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2012, 10:09:38 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?

Yes, it is. From the reports coming out this video didn't happen by accident.  Some of the people who acted in it say that that they were lied to about what the movie was about.  I have also read that the Arabic dubbing shows that the actors are saying different things in English and not the name "Mohammed".  So whoever did the dubbing purposely put a lie into the sound. The persons who planned and created it are at the very least responsible for making it with the falseness.

You are right.  This man is the reason people are being murdered, an insult.  You know, I was given a dirty look earlier, maybe I should react the same way against someone I never met.  After all, the dirty look man is responsible, not me.  Right?

No, he is responsible for the lies and falsehoods that were knowingly put in the video.  I do not think that it was made and put up on YouTube with some benign idea of it's purpose.  It was put up with deliberate intent to cause trouble.  That is what he is responsible for: what he chose to do.


The people who kill are responsible for their own evil actions.  They have chosen to act as they did.
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2012, 11:00:01 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?

Yes, it is. From the reports coming out this video didn't happen by accident.  Some of the people who acted in it say that that they were lied to about what the movie was about.  I have also read that the Arabic dubbing shows that the actors are saying different things in English and not the name "Mohammed".  So whoever did the dubbing purposely put a lie into the sound. The persons who planned and created it are at the very least responsible for making it with the falseness.

You are right.  This man is the reason people are being murdered, an insult.  You know, I was given a dirty look earlier, maybe I should react the same way against someone I never met.  After all, the dirty look man is responsible, not me.  Right?

No, he is responsible for the lies and falsehoods that were knowingly put in the video.  I do not think that it was made and put up on YouTube with some benign idea of it's purpose.  It was put up with deliberate intent to cause trouble.  That is what he is responsible for: what he chose to do.


The people who kill are responsible for their own evil actions.  They have chosen to act as they did.
He is responsible for poor cinema, nothing more.  Everything else you mentioned happens everyday in movies, documentaries, etc.  One doesn't need to agree or appreciate his work or his intent, but an honest person can not make an argument he did anything "wrong".  Keep in mind, I'm not an advocate for him or his product, but I am an advocate for his ability to make the product.  I haven't heard this much outrage over any recent anti-Christian piece of work in recent years.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2012, 11:01:33 PM »

Let us at the very least attempt to utilize common sense here.  Let's put the blame where it belongs.  On the violent and murderous cowards who pray for an excuse to kill innocents.

2 wrongs do not make it right.

Both the "Coptic" in-name-only film maker and the Muslim horde who attacked and killed people are equally guilty. Or perhaps I should say that the so-called Coptic Christian might be held more accountable by God because he knows the truth and has flaunted one of the basic tenets of Christianity: love your enemy.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 11:02:33 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2012, 11:08:12 PM »

Let us at the very least attempt to utilize common sense here.  Let's put the blame where it belongs.  On the violent and murderous cowards who pray for an excuse to kill innocents.

2 wrongs do not make it right.

Both the "Coptic" in-name-only film maker and the Muslim horde who attacked and killed people are equally guilty. Or perhaps I should say that the so-called Coptic Christian might be held more accountable by God because he knows the truth and has flaunted one of the basic tenets of Christianity: love your enemy.
Correct, two wrongs do not make a right.  I actually live by this and teach it to my children.  In addition, pandering to fanatics out of fear is a wrong we should not be doing.  We also probably should not be making public statements for the fanatics to hear instead of taking care of any internal problem, dare I say, internally.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,570


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 11:30:50 PM »

The first part I get.  The second part is from fear.  Held responsible?  Is that honestly a responsible statement?

Yes, it is. From the reports coming out this video didn't happen by accident.  Some of the people who acted in it say that that they were lied to about what the movie was about.  I have also read that the Arabic dubbing shows that the actors are saying different things in English and not the name "Mohammed".  So whoever did the dubbing purposely put a lie into the sound. The persons who planned and created it are at the very least responsible for making it with the falseness.

You are right.  This man is the reason people are being murdered, an insult.  You know, I was given a dirty look earlier, maybe I should react the same way against someone I never met.  After all, the dirty look man is responsible, not me.  Right?

No, he is responsible for the lies and falsehoods that were knowingly put in the video.  I do not think that it was made and put up on YouTube with some benign idea of it's purpose.  It was put up with deliberate intent to cause trouble.  That is what he is responsible for: what he chose to do.


The people who kill are responsible for their own evil actions.  They have chosen to act as they did.


But if you decide to pour gasoline on the floor and challenge a group of known pyromaniacs to drop a match on the floor, you will bear moral culpability for the consequences just as assuredly as do the pyromaniacs.

As to Muslim overreaction to supposed or real provocations, Dr. Fouad Ajami, a senior fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution, offers up an op-ed analysis in Sunday, September 16th's Washington Post. His assessment is not sugar-coated, nor is his conclusion optimistic. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-the-arab-world-why-a-movie-trailer-can-lead-to-violencewhy-cant-the-arab-world-accept-offenses-without-violence/2012/09/14/d2b65d2e-fdc8-11e1-8adc-499661afe377_story_2.html

Attempting to learn why fanatics act out in the manner in which they act is not 'pandering' - trying, as a society to develop an approach which may lead to a better world is not appeasement. When current events have been shaped by centuries of history and when competing cultures living on the same small planet have centuries old antagonisms, it is no small wonder that peace is an elusive goal.


« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 11:42:28 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2012, 11:33:21 PM »

Let us at the very least attempt to utilize common sense here.  Let's put the blame where it belongs.  On the violent and murderous cowards who pray for an excuse to kill innocents.

"Then said He unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" (Luke 17:1)

Yes, the thugs and murderers are responsible for their own actions. But the movie's creator is also responsible for his own actions. And while under the First Amendment he certainly had every 'right' to make the movie, under that same amendment everyone with any sense at all also has the right to say that it was a stupid and irresponsible act.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,570


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2012, 11:44:04 PM »

Let us at the very least attempt to utilize common sense here.  Let's put the blame where it belongs.  On the violent and murderous cowards who pray for an excuse to kill innocents.

"Then said He unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" (Luke 17:1)

Yes, the thugs and murderers are responsible for their own actions. But the movie's creator is also responsible for his own actions. And while under the First Amendment he certainly had every 'right' to make the movie, under that same amendment everyone with any sense at all also has the right to say that it was a stupid and irresponsible act.

As I stated earlier, the first amendment is not and never has been absolute and as Justice Holmes pointed out long ago you don't have the right to yell Fire in a crowded theater. Today's theater has no walls and that is a real challenge to us all.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2012, 11:48:24 PM »

I think we have covered "yelling" in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.0.html

BACK ON TOPIC:

Did the Bishops in the Coptic Church excommunicate this film-making guy? Was he the only guilty party? Or were there others involved?

If they did not excommunicate him, why not? Has he expressed any sign of repentance?

In this case, a timely apology would really help, but it might be toooooo late.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:02:58 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,423



« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2012, 12:05:37 AM »

He is responsible for poor cinema, nothing more.  Everything else you mentioned happens everyday in movies, documentaries, etc.  One doesn't need to agree or appreciate his work or his intent, but an honest person can not make an argument he did anything "wrong".  Keep in mind, I'm not an advocate for him or his product, but I am an advocate for his ability to make the product.  I haven't heard this much outrage over any recent anti-Christian piece of work in recent years.

Lying to actors and crew about the plot and characters in the movie isn't wrong?  Dubbing it with other words thereby making the actors *appear* to say things that they did not, thereby making them seem to be part of this plan when they were not isn't wrong? It's lying to and about other people.
Doing this video with the purposeful and knowing intent that such words would be offensive to other human beings isn't wrong?   It's malice.

I don't know how old you are, but I've heard/read plenty of objections and outrage to things that are or are interpreted to be anti-Christian.  Andres Serrano in 1987 for one.  The film The Last Temptation of Christ in 1988 for another.  There were attacks and fire bombs in France for that one for example. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/09/world/religious-war-ignites-anew-in-france.html

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2012, 12:08:11 AM »

He is responsible for poor cinema, nothing more.  Everything else you mentioned happens everyday in movies, documentaries, etc.  One doesn't need to agree or appreciate his work or his intent, but an honest person can not make an argument he did anything "wrong".  Keep in mind, I'm not an advocate for him or his product, but I am an advocate for his ability to make the product.  I haven't heard this much outrage over any recent anti-Christian piece of work in recent years.

Lying to actors and crew about the plot and characters in the movie isn't wrong?  Dubbing it with other words thereby making the actors *appear* to say things that they did not, thereby making them seem to be part of this plan when they were not isn't wrong? It's lying to and about other people.
Doing this video with the purposeful and knowing intent that such words would be offensive to other human beings isn't wrong?   It's malice.

I don't know how old you are, but I've heard/read plenty of objections and outrage to things that are or are interpreted to be anti-Christian.  Andres Serrano in 1987 for one.  The film The Last Temptation of Christ in 1988 for another.  There were attacks and fire bombs in France for that one for example. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/09/world/religious-war-ignites-anew-in-france.html



I agree with you, Ebor.

Deliberate deception is wrong. I hope the Coptic Bishops were able to contact this guy. An apology is desperately needed. If he refuses to repent and apologize, the Bishops need to excommunicate him.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:13:39 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2012, 12:09:17 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Correct, two wrongs do not make a right.  I actually live by this and teach it to my children.  In addition, pandering to fanatics out of fear is a wrong we should not be doing.  We also probably should not be making public statements for the fanatics to hear instead of taking care of any internal problem, dare I say, internally.

The Bishops were not pandering to fanatics, they were rightfully trying to distance both the Coptic Church and the Coptic community from the film and any potential backlash.  Copts live in Egypt, they don't want to provoke their neighbors.  Further, the Church didn't make this film, neither do most Copt support the premise or intents of the film, so what is wrong with the Bishops' statements exactly?

Quote
Bishop Serapion of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles, Southern California and Hawaii said he “strongly rejects dragging the respectable Copts of the Diaspora" into the controversy.

“The producers of this movie should be responsible for their actions,” Serapion said in a statement. “The name of our blessed parishioners should not be associated with the efforts of individuals who have ulterior motives.”

By held responsible, I don't think the Bishops were calling for some kind of punishment, rather that the filmmakers should be the ones considered solely responsible and not the Church or the Coptic community at large.  Just having the word "Copt" thrown around on the news so much makes me so nervous, people hear what they want to hear on all sides, so I can easily understand why the Church would be so insistent on damage control.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:10:44 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2012, 12:25:02 AM »

I think we have covered "yelling" in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.0.html

BACK ON TOPIC:

Did the Bishops in the Coptic Church excommunicate this film-making guy? Was he the only guilty party? Or were there others involved?

If they did not excommunicate him, why not? Has he expressed any sign of repentance?

In this case, a timely apology would really help, but it might be toooooo late.
Why are you calling for his automatic and immediate excommunication?  You seem more concerned about appeasing murderers than for redemption and the healing of this individual.  What happened to Christian love and temperament, or is that reserved only for those whose only reason to exist is to kill innocents?  I am sorry if I seem irritated about this.  It's because I am.  Everyone wants to role over and show their belly to evil, but are more than prepared to condemn someone who isn't trying to kill you.  It isn't rational.  I see a lot of blame being tossed around, but little of it lands where it should.

And it's been too late since about 600 AD.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:26:32 AM by Kerdy » Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2012, 12:29:14 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I think we have covered "yelling" in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.0.html

BACK ON TOPIC:

Did the Bishops in the Coptic Church excommunicate this film-making guy? Was he the only guilty party? Or were there others involved?

If they did not excommunicate him, why not? Has he expressed any sign of repentance?

In this case, a timely apology would really help, but it might be toooooo late.
Why are you calling for his automatic and immediate excommunication?  You seem more concerned about appeasing murderers than for redemption and the healing of this individual.  What happened to Christian love and temperament, or is that reserved only for those whose only reason to exist is to kill innocents?  I am sorry if I seem irritated about this.  It's because I am.  Everyone wants to role over and show their belly to evil, but are more than prepared to condemn someone who isn't trying to kill you.  It isn't rational.  I see a lot of blame being tossed around, but little of it lands where it should.

And it's been too late since about 600 AD.

Calm down, walk away from the computer, and realize that you may be feeling angry and indignant, but this is not a movie, this is real life, and millions of Coptic Christians in Egypt depend more on the good sense of real politik niceties rather than a bunch of hot-headed bravado.  Trust me, Islamic militants are not lacking in any amount of bravado or machismo, and so if we want to have a chest-beating contest we may not come out unscathed Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:30:45 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2012, 12:30:52 AM »

He is responsible for poor cinema, nothing more.  Everything else you mentioned happens everyday in movies, documentaries, etc.  One doesn't need to agree or appreciate his work or his intent, but an honest person can not make an argument he did anything "wrong".  Keep in mind, I'm not an advocate for him or his product, but I am an advocate for his ability to make the product.  I haven't heard this much outrage over any recent anti-Christian piece of work in recent years.

Lying to actors and crew about the plot and characters in the movie isn't wrong?  Dubbing it with other words thereby making the actors *appear* to say things that they did not, thereby making them seem to be part of this plan when they were not isn't wrong? It's lying to and about other people.
Doing this video with the purposeful and knowing intent that such words would be offensive to other human beings isn't wrong?   It's malice.

I don't know how old you are, but I've heard/read plenty of objections and outrage to things that are or are interpreted to be anti-Christian.  Andres Serrano in 1987 for one.  The film The Last Temptation of Christ in 1988 for another.  There were attacks and fire bombs in France for that one for example. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/09/world/religious-war-ignites-anew-in-france.html


Do you present as much outrage for the news media?  They do this this very thing daily.  How old am I?  Old enough to know better and old enough to understand the human condition.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2012, 12:35:08 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I think we have covered "yelling" in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.0.html

BACK ON TOPIC:

Did the Bishops in the Coptic Church excommunicate this film-making guy? Was he the only guilty party? Or were there others involved?

If they did not excommunicate him, why not? Has he expressed any sign of repentance?

In this case, a timely apology would really help, but it might be toooooo late.
Why are you calling for his automatic and immediate excommunication?  You seem more concerned about appeasing murderers than for redemption and the healing of this individual.  What happened to Christian love and temperament, or is that reserved only for those whose only reason to exist is to kill innocents?  I am sorry if I seem irritated about this.  It's because I am.  Everyone wants to role over and show their belly to evil, but are more than prepared to condemn someone who isn't trying to kill you.  It isn't rational.  I see a lot of blame being tossed around, but little of it lands where it should.

And it's been too late since about 600 AD.

Calm down, walk away from the computer, and realize that you may be feeling angry and indignant, but this is not a movie, this is real life, and millions of Coptic Christians in Egypt depend more on the good sense of real politik niceties rather than a bunch of hot-headed bravado.  Trust me, Islamic militants are not lacking in any amount of bravado or machismo, and so if we want to have a chest-beating contest we may not come out unscathed Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I'm calm, I usually am.  Frustrated, yes, with the passive appeasement people seem to present in the face of evil never realizing they seal their own doom by doing so.  But if begging and sticking necks out to be decapitated is the modern view of strength, I'll sit back and watch.  This is not the only area modern society fails to halt its implosion, just the most dynamic.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 12:36:59 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2012, 12:39:58 AM »

I think we have covered "yelling" in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.0.html

BACK ON TOPIC:

Did the Bishops in the Coptic Church excommunicate this film-making guy? Was he the only guilty party? Or were there others involved?

If they did not excommunicate him, why not? Has he expressed any sign of repentance?

In this case, a timely apology would really help, but it might be toooooo late.
Why are you calling for his automatic and immediate excommunication?  You seem more concerned about appeasing murderers than for redemption and the healing of this individual.  What happened to Christian love and temperament, or is that reserved only for those whose only reason to exist is to kill innocents?  I am sorry if I seem irritated about this.  It's because I am.  Everyone wants to role over and show their belly to evil, but are more than prepared to condemn someone who isn't trying to kill you.  It isn't rational.  I see a lot of blame being tossed around, but little of it lands where it should.

And it's been too late since about 600 AD.

Excommunication has been used by the Holy Church from the very beginning.

It is not punishment, but an attempt to bring a sinner to repentance.
Besides, excommunication (denying someone the Holy Eucharist) is for their benefit as Holy Communion is to be approached with faith, love, and repentance.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2012, 12:54:29 AM »

It's kind of hard for his excommunication to do anything about the fact that this debacle has been associated with Coptic Christians in hundreds of stories about this outbreak of violence by now. The damage is done, folks. There's no putting this down. Now we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2012, 12:56:01 AM »

It's kind of hard for his excommunication to do anything about the fact that this debacle has been associated with Coptic Christians in hundreds of stories about this outbreak of violence by now. The damage is done, folks. There's no putting this down. Now we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
What will happen next?

Lord have mercy.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2012, 12:59:18 AM »

I don't know. Only God does. Some people today at church were talking about how they're afraid there could be violence after Friday (mosque) prayers, or even on Sundays specifically for the symbolic value...either way, I hope they're wrong. Lord have mercy.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2012, 01:04:23 AM »

I don't know. Only God does. Some people today at church were talking about how they're afraid there could be violence after Friday (mosque) prayers, or even on Sundays specifically for the symbolic value...either way, I hope they're wrong. Lord have mercy.

Lord have mercy.

Most Holy Theotokos, save us.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
psalm110
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christianity
Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Posts: 369


Orthodox Christian


« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2012, 01:10:37 AM »

What now for the Christians in the Middle East ? Are they in danger ? The person who made this film is a coptic christian which his message is contrary to the message of Jesus Christ Our Lord told us Love your enemies Matthew 5:44 & 1 Thessalonians 5:15 never repay evil for evil.

Its wrong what he has done, but its far more worse what the Muslims are doing now.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 01:15:29 AM by psalm110 » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2012, 01:58:26 AM »

I think we have covered "yelling" in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.0.html

BACK ON TOPIC:

Did the Bishops in the Coptic Church excommunicate this film-making guy? Was he the only guilty party? Or were there others involved?

If they did not excommunicate him, why not? Has he expressed any sign of repentance?

In this case, a timely apology would really help, but it might be toooooo late.
Why are you calling for his automatic and immediate excommunication?  You seem more concerned about appeasing murderers than for redemption and the healing of this individual.  What happened to Christian love and temperament, or is that reserved only for those whose only reason to exist is to kill innocents?  I am sorry if I seem irritated about this.  It's because I am.  Everyone wants to role over and show their belly to evil, but are more than prepared to condemn someone who isn't trying to kill you.  It isn't rational.  I see a lot of blame being tossed around, but little of it lands where it should.

And it's been too late since about 600 AD.

Excommunication has been used by the Holy Church from the very beginning.

It is not punishment, but an attempt to bring a sinner to repentance.
Besides, excommunication (denying someone the Holy Eucharist) is for their benefit as Holy Communion is to be approached with faith, love, and repentance.
My question was why this is your first and foremost reaction rather than use steps which lead up to excommunication.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2012, 02:00:44 AM »

I hope everyone realizes this movie had very little to do with what is going on right now, if anything.  It's being used as an excuse, nothing more.
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,722


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2012, 02:16:43 AM »

I'm going to ask everyone to cool off a bit here.  The discussion is starting to get heated, and that's probably not the most productive thing to be doing at this very stressful time.  I'm going to ask that tonight and tomorrow in church, people pray for our Coptic brothers and sisters in Egypt.  When we return to this, let's try to have a productive conversation about how this can be handled.

While bringing up the first amendment is not something that is totally inappropriate here, or completely restricted to the private forum, I just want to let people know that there is an active thread about the first amendment implications of this incident down in the politics forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.0.html

If people want to have a fuller discussion about that, it may be best to do it in that thread.
Logged

psalm110
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christianity
Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Posts: 369


Orthodox Christian


« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2012, 03:17:18 AM »

Is there clear information who was really behind the film ? was it only just this Coptic, I've heard Zionist was behind it and even supported by muslim community ??
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 9,488


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2012, 01:09:40 PM »

Criticising a false religion like Islam merits excommunication? It wasn't very prudent of the movie-maker, but doesn't excommunication go a little bit too far?
Logged

"And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
is pride that apes humility."
-Samuel Coleridge
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,570


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2012, 03:41:05 PM »

Criticising a false religion like Islam merits excommunication? It wasn't very prudent of the movie-maker, but doesn't excommunication go a little bit too far?

Criticism is one thing, but malicious motivations which one KNOWS will provoke further hatred, mob actions and death are quite another and frankly, it is hard for me to understand how a person professing to be a Copt could envision that any good could come out of such a provocation as this childishly made amateur movie. If you goad a hungry caged tiger, wipe yourself with animal fat and blood and then decide to let that tiger out of the cage to see what will happen to you, you and your next of kin have no right to complain about the predictability of the outcome.

Given the history of the relationship between Copts and Muslim fundamentalists in Egypt, why would even assume that the 'filmmaker' is a Copt and not an agent provocateur?
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2012, 10:40:38 PM »

What I keep hearing is how it's ok to say whatever one wants about anything they want unless it's about a group of childish murderers.  Then it's wrong.  Like I said...fear.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2012, 10:46:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What I keep hearing is how it's ok to say whatever one wants about anything they want unless it's about a group of childish murderers.  Then it's wrong.  Like I said...fear.

No, what you are doing is being childish to prejudice 1 billion people as if they were all murderers.  What the Church is doing is rightfully distancing herself from silly, childish, and arrogant fools like those who made this film who are only interested in kicking the hornets' nest Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2012, 10:52:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

What I keep hearing is how it's ok to say whatever one wants about anything they want unless it's about a group of childish murderers.  Then it's wrong.  Like I said...fear.

No, what you are doing is being childish to prejudice 1 billion people as if they were all murderers.  What the Church is doing is rightfully distancing herself from silly, childish, and arrogant fools like those who made this film who are only interested in kicking the hornets' nest Sad

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Im only predujice against those who kill innocents as a result of everything being offensive, the suns too bright, a cartoon, all the things they do to others but don't like done to them.  Apparently, we have different ideas of what childish means.  It's one thing to take your ball and go home.  It's an entirely different thing to blow up the youth center with everyone in it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 10:53:49 PM by Kerdy » Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2012, 11:06:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And the Church and many other political folks have rightfully and vociferously condemned the violence.  However, two wrongs don't make a right, and the Church and many others are equally right to condemn the intentionally inflammatory video in the first place.  Radical Islamic violence is wrong.  Provoking such violence is wrong.  However, I would also like to note that these protests and violence are  not solely a matter of radical Islam, rather there are a lot of converging and complicated socio-cultural, political, and economic circumstances on top of the religious tensions.  To say this is just about Islam vs Christianity is far too simplistic and unrealistic an analysis, and one that stinks of a biased agenda at that Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,570


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2012, 11:08:28 PM »

I understand Kerdy's frustration but it is one thing to note a reaction and another to attempt to solve a problem. A simple question then - what would you propose to solve the problem as you see it? You can't seem to separate the two issues here - inciting to riot and rioting -both are morally objectionable. No one here is excusing the mob or exculpating them. You seem to take issue with those who would try to understand the basis of the rioters and reaction - understanding evil is neither an endorsement of evil nor an excuse for it despite the politicians who like to play to the inner mob at home by equating analyzing a problem with appeasement. So then -what is your solution?
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2012, 11:24:37 PM »

I think the film was the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time, and the reaction to it even worse ('dumb' doesn't even begin), but I will side with Kerdy in so far as there has to come some point, and think that point is long past due, when free people in the world stand up and say "We cannot live in a world where one particular religion or way of life is held as sacrosanct, not because it has earned that reputation by the justness of its teachings, but because its adherents will threaten, beat, and murder with impunity anyone who says otherwise." Now, this film is not the way to do that (and if that was what the "director" was trying to do, he failed miserably), but still, it's high time we draw the proverbial line in the sand and say no to all this stuff. I've already read, for example, calls to shut down Youtube in some Muslim-majority countries (source), which is ridiculous enough without some of the other reactions that have gone on (though I would like to go a day without having "100 reasons why Christianity is stupid and Christians are going to Hell, by some Muslim"-type videos recommended to me just because I listen to taranim videos while I do the dishes or something). It's time we in the West say no to every attempt to make the entire world kowtow to the precious feelings of a perpetually offended minority of numbskulls. I don't care that they are offended anymore. They've used up their right to complain while their coreligionists (a much larger number and proportion of them than were involved in the production and promotion of the anti-Islam film, of course) burn our churches, kidnap young Christians and make them convert to Islam, destroy monasteries, aggressively attempt to liquidate entire Christian populations of a given country, etc. I'm out of give-a-darn's (sorry...don't want to have to review the new obscenity rules mid-post) for these people. Either start practicing some reciprocity or shut up and stop using things that came out of the "evil" Western world that allow you to view things that will make you mad. Or better yet, grow up and stop being babies about the fact that not everybody loves your prophet and your religion. The rest of the world's religions are waiting for you catch up in this regard. The waiting, as Tom Petty once told us, is the hardest part, and it seems that every day the patience of more and more of the world is wearing thin. Like this wonderful gentleman, who I wish I could vote for in November...

That is the mysterious reason 'why', by the way. I don't really think there's much more to it than that, when you get right down to it. Islam's honor has been insulted and blahblahblahblah (same old garbage). Muhammad's fake Allah can't do anything for himself that some of his followers can't do quicker and bloodier. They don't like that anyone should have the freedom to not treat their religion as just the most bestest, perfect little path to God that there ever was. Friends of mine in the UK have told me about (granted) requests to place the Qur'an above every other book in the religion section of libraries, in order not to offend Muslim sensibilities that say that it belongs there due to its superior status as an "uncorrupted" book of God. And that's a nice request, no doubt asked politely, but that's how these things work: Take a film that is obviously offensive and once you've distanced yourself from the radicals who are doing what you'd do if you were similarly unsophisticated, use this context to reintroduce global blasphemy laws of the type that you ultimately failed to push through the UN a few years ago.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 11:28:39 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2012, 11:26:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

And the Church and many other political folks have rightfully and vociferously condemned the violence.  However, two wrongs don't make a right, and the Church and many others are equally right to condemn the intentionally inflammatory video in the first place.  Radical Islamic violence is wrong.  Provoking such violence is wrong.  However, I would also like to note that these protests and violence are  not solely a matter of radical Islam, rather there are a lot of converging and complicated socio-cultural, political, and economic circumstances on top of the religious tensions.  To say this is just about Islam vs Christianity is far too simplistic and unrealistic an analysis, and one that stinks of a biased agenda at that Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Regarding the people I am speaking about, you are right.  It isnt about Islam vs. Christianity.  It's about Islam vs. Everything, including Islam.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,127


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2012, 12:26:06 AM »

In the meantime, lives are still being lost.

Let us not forget to pray. Lord have mercy.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,955



« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2012, 01:01:06 AM »

Both the "Coptic" in-name-only film maker and the Muslim horde who attacked and killed people are equally guilty. Or perhaps I should say that the so-called Coptic Christian might be held more accountable by God because he knows the truth and has flaunted one of the basic tenets of Christianity: love your enemy.

Utter nonsense. First of all, making a film is not an equal guilt to committing murder. Secon, if you had actually seen the film, you would know that the film has the intention to open Muslim people's eyes by showing them the truth about Muhammad. To insult them was not an intention of the film; rather it is in the nature of Islam to produce violent outrage whenever anything is questioned about that religion.

And if we love our enemies, we will not hide the truth from them.

PS: I still do not favour the film, its whole production style is just too trashy. But I believe that Mr. Nakoula did not have evil intentions in making this film.

Islam cannot be compared to Judaism (which denies Christ, but still has scriptures from the true God) or Buddhism (which grew out of the will to overcome suffering in this world). Islam comes directly from Satan, who was guiding Muhammad and gave him the Quran. That's my theological position.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,551



WWW
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2012, 02:06:49 AM »

Some investigative reports by news outlets suggest that the movie was not real and actually "created" in order to create sectarian conflict in the Middle East:

Quote
There may be no anti-Islamic movie at all
By Dan Murphy, Staff writer / September 12, 2012

Cindy Lee Garcia tells the website that she was hired last summer for a small part in a movie she was told would be called "Desert Warriors," about life in Egypt 2,000 years ago (Islam is about 1,400 years old). She told Gawker "It wasn't based on anything to do with religion, it was just on how things were run in Egypt. There wasn't anything about Muhammed or Muslims or anything and that, according to Gawker, "In the script and during the shooting, nothing indicated the controversial nature of the final product. Muhammed wasn't even called Muhammed; he was "Master George," Garcia said. The words Muhammed were dubbed over in post-production, as were essentially all other offensive references to Islam and Muhammed. Garcia said that there was a man who identified as "Bacile" on set, but that he was Egyptian and frequently spoke Arabic.

...If suspicions are right, the low-quality footage has been re-purposed from somewhere, and you'd expect someone to come forward and explain soon (since a lot of actors are involved). What's really going on here? I have no idea.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0912/There-may-be-no-anti-Islamic-movie-at-all



Quote
Inside the strange Hollywood scam that spread chaos across the Middle East

Produced and promoted by a strange collection of rightwing Christian evangelicals and exiled Egyptian Copts, the trailer was created with the intention of both destabilizing post-Mubarak Egypt and roiling the US presidential election. As a consultant for the film named Steve Klein said: "We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen."

...Before Nakoula was unmasked, the only person to publicly claim any role in the film was Klein, an insurance salesman and Vietnam veteran from Hemet, California, who emerged from the same Islamophobic movement that produced the Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik.

...Klein and Sadek joined Nakoula in preparing what would be their greatest propaganda stunt to date: the Innocence of Muslims. As soon as the film appeared on YouTube, Sadek promoted it on his website, transforming the obscure clip into a viral source of outrage in the Middle East. And like clockwork, on September 11, crowds of Muslim protesters stormed the walls of the US embassy in Cairo, demanding retribution for the insult to the prophet Muhammad.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/13/egypt-libya-hollywood-film

Quote
Mystery deepens over US film linked to Benghazi protests

It comprised clumsily overdubbed and haphazardly-edited scenes. "Among the overdubbed words is 'Mohammed', suggesting that the footage was taken from a film about something else entirely. The footage also suggests multiple video sources — there are obvious and jarring discrepancies among actors and locations, " wrote Buzzfeed's Rosie Gray.

That analysis appeared to be bolstered when a statement in the name of cast and crew was issued, distancing them from the footage. "We are 100% not behind this film, and were grossly misled about its intent and purpose. We are shocked by the drastic re-writes of the script and lies that were told to all involved. We are deeply saddened by the tragedies that have occurred."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/13/benghazi-mystery-deepens-film?newsfeed=true
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2012, 03:13:00 AM »

Islamophonic?  Why is it everyone who holds any semblance of a conservative view or something not embraced by those who are so far put in left field they are in another stadium, is either a bigot, hater or has some sort of phobia?

I have finally watched the 13 min YouTube version of this.  It's stupid, no doubt, but nothing to cause the response it's received, which was preplanned anyway and blamed on this video.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 03:16:29 AM by Kerdy » Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2012, 04:18:57 AM »

Either Muslims are people just like the rest of us and don't actually have extra/more feelings compared to the rest of us (how many times have you heard some variation of "You can't understand; they/we care about our religion, unlike Christians"? I've heard it or read it at least half a dozen times so far in response to this latest idiocy), or they're something other than regular, functional human beings who decide how to react to provocations or insults (planned or not). As an Egyptian acquaintance put it: There were about 300 people at the initial protest in front of the embassy in Egypt. Egypt has a population of 80+ million. You think it's hard to find 300 violent morons out of a pool of 80+ million? And of course that's not the point, though it does put things into perspective a bit. If I were a Muslim, I would like to think I'd be more upset at the world reaction which sees my people essentially as one giant hive-mind with the temperament of a fussy baby than with some film that isn't even well made, and indeed might not even exist.  

And by the way, if Muslims as a group are going to be treated as though they are something other than functional adults who are able to be reasoned with, then I wish we (non-Muslims) could just go the full way and actually treat them differently in the law code, rather than the current situation wherein we're on one hand recognizing that they're crazy, and on the other unable to take the necessary precautions or make the necessary distinctions we need to actually be realistic about what we're facing in this world and how we're going to deal with it. Think about any other situation and ask yourself if this behavior is tolerable. Stupid, filthy hippies at the "Occupy" protests in my own city were subject to more restrictions with less apologies than we give to Muslims who tell us that they're being violent because their religion wants them to be. I mean...do we have to keep living in this fantasy land where we're all pretending that Hilary Clinton knows the first thing about Islam, so as to be able to judge it to be "great"? (Not a partisan comment; Bush Jr. did the whole "great religion hijacked by extremists" dance, too.)

The Muslims know what they want. We don't. So we pay, and they don't. This world is screwed. Saint Anthony was right.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 04:27:27 AM by dzheremi » Logged

podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,570


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2012, 08:30:40 AM »

Is not one who knowingly creates an incitement to violence by others morally on an equal footing with one who goes out in response and pulls a trigger? If not one finds oneself on the slippery slope of MORAL RELATIVISM and situational ethics which all of us decry here regularly as the bane of our modern western world. Collateral damage and the ends justify the means? I will side with the Bishops of both our Coptic brothers and our own on this issue.
Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2012, 08:45:53 AM »

Is not one who knowingly creates an incitement to violence by others morally on an equal footing with one who goes out in response and pulls a trigger? If not one finds oneself on the slippery slope of MORAL RELATIVISM and situational ethics which all of us decry here regularly as the bane of our modern western world. Collateral damage and the ends justify the means? I will side with the Bishops of both our Coptic brothers and our own on this issue.
Do you have the capability to prove intent?  It's easy to show the intent of the ones doing the killing but I think you'll find it more difficult to prove the intent behind the movie unless the one who put it out there makes a statement explaining that intent. 

Let me change the situation within your explanation.  Wife knows if she says something to make husband angry he beats her.  She says it anyway so the beating is just as much her fault as his.  Does it still makes sense?  Not to me either.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,570


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2012, 09:07:37 AM »

Is not one who knowingly creates an incitement to violence by others morally on an equal footing with one who goes out in response and pulls a trigger? If not one finds oneself on the slippery slope of MORAL RELATIVISM and situational ethics which all of us decry here regularly as the bane of our modern western world. Collateral damage and the ends justify the means? I will side with the Bishops of both our Coptic brothers and our own on this issue.
Do you have the capability to prove intent?  It's easy to show the intent of the ones doing the killing but I think you'll find it more difficult to prove the intent behind the movie unless the one who put it out there makes a statement explaining that intent.  

Let me change the situation within your explanation.  Wife knows if she says something to make husband angry he beats her.  She says it anyway so the beating is just as much her fault as his.  Does it still makes sense?  Not to me either.

Without knowing what the woman said and the context of where, how and when she said it I can't answer your hypothetical question. Was she trying to defend her children or was she taunting the man in a heated argument?

In our system of law, and correct me if I am wrong  (but I am not) in systemic moral theology as well -  while intent is generally a required element for proving guilt - one may infer intent when the outcome stemming from one's conscious actions results in an predictable sinful result. The makers of the film must share in the moral culpability of the result of their conscience decisions IF Their intent was to provoke the sinful response. Two wrongs do not make a right. (By the way, if their intent was pure and they didn't anticipate the sinful result of the rioters actions, then I suppose they have mental defect as a defense in the courts of law. In simple terms, they would be 'idiots' in that case and from the words cited by 'rakovsky' they knew darn well what they were doing. AS to the church - that is among them, their Father-confessors and God Himself.)

How does this always come down to a liberal/conservative divide in the minds of some folks? That sort of intellectual construct is as closed minded and simplistic as that of the mob.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 09:08:42 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2012, 10:14:15 AM »

Is not one who knowingly creates an incitement to violence by others morally on an equal footing with one who goes out in response and pulls a trigger?

I'm sorry for the crude example, but this sort of reasoning really reminds me of my days as a teenage leftist, and being shouted down in "meetings" for not going along with the idea that all men are guilty of rape because of "rape culture". No. There will always be a difference between those who choose violence and those who do not. A movie is not responsible for violence any more than a car is responsible for vehicular homicide, which I choose for this example because it is murder with the vehicle, not by the vehicle. The person is guilty. And in deplorable acts of violence, similarly, the person committing them is guilty. You always have a choice how you may react. That was the whole point of my post: Either Muslims are responsible for their actions because they are rational human beings possessing of the same feelings as the rest of us, or they aren't. And if they aren't, we should start treating them like they aren't and not letting them indulge in those things that trigger their uncontrollable rage and violence -- like life in the west, use of western technology, use of western freedoms like the right to assemble, etc. In the same way we don't let toddlers perform heart surgery, if Muslims are truly incapable of handling life in the modern world, where everyone doesn't necessarily like their religion, they ought not be a part of it. Go away, then. Bye.
Logged

podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,570


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2012, 10:20:41 AM »

Is not one who knowingly creates an incitement to violence by others morally on an equal footing with one who goes out in response and pulls a trigger?

I'm sorry for the crude example, but this sort of reasoning really reminds me of my days as a teenage leftist, and being shouted down in "meetings" for not going along with the idea that all men are guilty of rape because of "rape culture". No. There will always be a difference between those who choose violence and those who do not. A movie is not responsible for violence any more than a car is responsible for vehicular homicide, which I choose for this example because it is murder with the vehicle, not by the vehicle. The person is guilty. And in deplorable acts of violence, similarly, the person committing them is guilty. You always have a choice how you may react. That was the whole point of my post: Either Muslims are responsible for their actions because they are rational human beings possessing of the same feelings as the rest of us, or they aren't. And if they aren't, we should start treating them like they aren't and not letting them indulge in those things that trigger their uncontrollable rage and violence -- like life in the west, use of western technology, use of western freedoms like the right to assemble, etc. In the same way we don't let toddlers perform heart surgery, if Muslims are truly incapable of handling life in the modern world, where everyone doesn't necessarily like their religion, they ought not be a part of it. Go away, then. Bye.

If they didn't have oil under much of their lands, we would have said 'bye' long ago! And history will judge the romanicized vision of western policy makers in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 in a far more dispassionate manner than we can do today. however....

But I am not arguing that the movie 'caused' the violence - just as a gun doesn't murder someone - the shooter does, the car didn't kill my brother many years ago - the drunk driver at the wheel did. We hold the shooter, the drunk driver morally and legally responsible for the consequences of their acts - why are the film makers somehow exempted? Their moral culpability is not equivalent to the rioters but they don't get off the hook either. Free speech is not a pass for incitement.....and it has never been absolute.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2012, 11:25:26 AM »

I hear ya, Podkarpatska, but the trouble is that we have one segment of the world which is incited by things that the rest of the world has learned to live with. Who's responsibility is it, then, when they react in a predictably violent and odious manner? It seems to me that saying "well, they're just LIKE that; everybody knows that, so the filmmaker should have thought better of it" is lessening their responsibility for their own actions. Yes, indeed, they are just like that, but that's no more an excuse or justification for the reaction than the filmmaker's "free speech" shield is for his own. Both 'sides' if you will have a responsibility to both act and react responsibly and neither did, BUT the action required to curb negative reaction, if you believe the likes of the Sunni leaders who are trying to reintroduce worldwide anti-blasphemy laws, is to criminalize all opposition to Islam with anti-defamation laws, which is much more than is necessary for one movie to be remade/not made (one has an effect on everybody's actions/freedom; the other an effect on one person's). I would hope that Christians would know which is the more insidious evil, in light of recent examples like the down's syndrome girl in Pakistan and historical examples whereby criticism of Islam lead to death (the Martyrs of Cordoba in the mythically idyllic 'al-Andalus', anyone?).

I can live in a world where not everybody abides by my religion, and they cannot. That's the reality of the situation, far away from who "caused" what. I should say that the blame should be placed on the feet of Muhammad for having started this terrible community in the first place, but that would likewise ignore the fact that most aren't rioting and killing.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 11:26:33 AM by dzheremi » Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2012, 02:46:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Like on our Civil War thread, the issue is like slavery, and it will take both the West and Islamic powers to concede mutual culpability for us all to finally move forward.  The West has to stop perpetuating the provoking economic, political, and social policies which fuel this violence and these conflicts, and Islamic powers need to begin to move towards balance and away from violence.  Remember, the West for the past 30 years has depended on force of arms, violence, and political corruption to quell and control Islamic violence, and much like during the Vietnam War, this has only further provoked and antagonized the situation. Egypt and Yemen are good examples, and the situations we see of escalating violence and civil destabilizing reveals the the strong-arm policies which those countries had relied upon and which Western powers financially and militarily supported do not work.   We cant FORCE folks who disagree with us to negotiate totally by threat, that can often provoke the war further.  They have to learn its not worth the fight, but we equally have to better learn when and where to pick a fight, and when to just let bullies vent their hot  air.  The Islamic thugs are bullies, simply put the WANT us to fight them. They want their own governments to fight them.  They are radicals, militants, and gangsters.  However decades of fighting them has clearly demonstrated the lack of efficacy in this tit-for-tat and eye-for-an-eye approach.  Its an endless cat and mouse game however its not a game at all, its life and death for many people. 

So often  the analysis is over-simplified to being Islam vs everything else, when in reality it is more than religious sectarianism, it is politics, it is culture, it is economics, and is even logistics and geography!  Every Muslim doesn't want war, in fact Jihad in its initial connotations was a spiritual battle fought through prayer!  A minority of scumbags, war-criminals, and thugs have hijacked the narrative of Islamic relations with the rest of the world, and it is silly for us to empower them by believing and perpetuating their myths.  Islam is not necessarily about violence.  The violence we see occurring isn't really about Islam, just like the violence in Ireland isn't really just about Catholic-Protestants.  Saint Anthony was right, but because the world is what is requires us to be even MORE vigilant and guarding ourselves against spreading prejudice or sowing seeds of antagonism by how we speak and act in our communities.  This is the premise of the Coptic Bishops statements denouncing the film.  We ALL know the film is not the sole cause of the violence, and so as a community we need to work harder together to bridge the gaps, or else the war(s) carry on as ever. ALL wars either end in all out genocide or at the bargaining table.  So one way or the other, we all have to learn to negotiate better  Undecided

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2012, 03:20:06 PM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46976.msg807906.html#msg807906

because my comment is too much of politics I have moved it to the politics section.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2012, 06:50:29 PM »

Is not one who knowingly creates an incitement to violence by others morally on an equal footing with one who goes out in response and pulls a trigger? If not one finds oneself on the slippery slope of MORAL RELATIVISM and situational ethics which all of us decry here regularly as the bane of our modern western world. Collateral damage and the ends justify the means? I will side with the Bishops of both our Coptic brothers and our own on this issue.
Do you have the capability to prove intent?  It's easy to show the intent of the ones doing the killing but I think you'll find it more difficult to prove the intent behind the movie unless the one who put it out there makes a statement explaining that intent.  

Let me change the situation within your explanation.  Wife knows if she says something to make husband angry he beats her.  She says it anyway so the beating is just as much her fault as his.  Does it still makes sense?  Not to me either.

Without knowing what the woman said and the context of where, how and when she said it I can't answer your hypothetical question.


And here is where we find the rub.  It doesn't matter.  Just because she says something he doesnt like in no way justifies a beating.  Talking, unless a threat of legitimate violence is involved, never justifies a violent response.  According to you, your mother goes to work, disagrees with her boss, gets beaten into the ER and before you react you want to know why she made him angry by talking.  Illogical in every way.

In reference to your legal question, you seem to have forgotten the "beyond a reasonable doubt" portion.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 06:52:28 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2012, 06:57:46 PM »

If grown men are going to act like spoiled children they should expect to be treated like spoiled children and take their spanking, go stand in the corner and be quiet until they learn how to get along with others.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 07:24:22 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2012, 07:29:08 PM »

Is not one who knowingly creates an incitement to violence by others morally on an equal footing with one who goes out in response and pulls a trigger?

I'm sorry for the crude example, but this sort of reasoning really reminds me of my days as a teenage leftist, and being shouted down in "meetings" for not going along with the idea that all men are guilty of rape because of "rape culture". No. There will always be a difference between those who choose violence and those who do not. A movie is not responsible for violence any more than a car is responsible for vehicular homicide, which I choose for this example because it is murder with the vehicle, not by the vehicle. The person is guilty. And in deplorable acts of violence, similarly, the person committing them is guilty. You always have a choice how you may react. That was the whole point of my post: Either Muslims are responsible for their actions because they are rational human beings possessing of the same feelings as the rest of us, or they aren't. And if they aren't, we should start treating them like they aren't and not letting them indulge in those things that trigger their uncontrollable rage and violence -- like life in the west, use of western technology, use of western freedoms like the right to assemble, etc. In the same way we don't let toddlers perform heart surgery, if Muslims are truly incapable of handling life in the modern world, where everyone doesn't necessarily like their religion, they ought not be a part of it. Go away, then. Bye.

If they didn't have oil under much of their lands, we would have said 'bye' long ago! And history will judge the romanicized vision of western policy makers in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 in a far more dispassionate manner than we can do today. however....

But I am not arguing that the movie 'caused' the violence - just as a gun doesn't murder someone - the shooter does, the car didn't kill my brother many years ago - the drunk driver at the wheel did. We hold the shooter, the drunk driver morally and legally responsible for the consequences of their acts - why are the film makers somehow exempted? Their moral culpability is not equivalent to the rioters but they don't get off the hook either. Free speech is not a pass for incitement.....and it has never been absolute.
Because they didn't kill anyone, burn down a building or anything similar.  Look at the example you provided to understand the difference.  Movie maker is the same and the gun and car manufacturer.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 07:33:29 PM by Kerdy » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.223 seconds with 85 queries.