Topic: Dating non-Orthodox (singles or hypothetically as singles)

[Anastasia1]

Could be hypothetical, but let's assume a severe absence of attractive, age-appropriate, single Orthodox people. What kind of denominations would you consider for dating/a possible relationship with members of and why?  And how/when would you approach the matter?

[Pan Michał]

Could be hypothetical, but let's assume a severe absence of attractive, age-appropriate, single Orthodox people. What kind of denominations would you consider for dating/a possible relationship with members of and why?  And how/when would you approach the matter?

I would do my very best not to mistake a partner for a bishop. If you are dating a someone, what are his/her beliefs is not one of the first questions. You can find a wrong EO person and you can find right atheist person.

[mabsoota]

 
when i first met the man i later married, we discussed faith first.
then we became friends. then we became more than friends.
this is a good and well used strategy.

make friends with men who are Christians.
then, if you start to take it further, you know already what is their faith.

i think it's normal to discuss your faith with all your friends.
i have friends from all religions and atheists, and so far none of them got offended about discussing faith.
you just do it sensitively.

[jmbejdl]

I wouldn't discount people based solely on their current faith so long as they are not actively hostile to your faith (in contrast to an earlier post, I think that would generally rule out atheists). When I first met my wife I'd only just encountered Orthodoxy and I was interested but it was in a quite academic way. I certainly hadn't decided to convert. Rather than pushing me away she helped draw me into the Church. It wasn't solely or even mostly down to her (a monk I met a short time later was the real catalyst) but she certainly helped so I'm glad I wasn't turned away out of hand. Over a decade on and I still thank God I met her and ended up in the Church.

James

[Dominika]

Obviously, the best partner would be an Orthodox. But it is not so easy, if you live in a place that there are very few Orthodox. And it becomes more difficult to meet an Orthodox who really practices the faith, who share similar interests, and finally, who is attractive for me and I for him. So, I know, I can't be closed for the relationship with non-Orthodox. Maybe one day he would convert...

I think he has to be Christian. No-atheist, no-muslim or somethings else - it just couldn't work because of the lack of common basis. And as for Christian, I suppose a Catholic would be better than a Protestant, because in my opinion Catholicism is closer to Orthodoxy. Wedding only in the Orthodox Church and possible children baptised in the Orthodox Church. I know some mixed couples (Catholic - Orthodox), including my parents, and it always finishes in the same way - children are lost and after some year with difficulties convert to Orthodoxy.

And, I think, probably is better to date truly believer Catholic, than only nominal Orthodox

[Gorazd]

If you already are dating a non-Orthodox partner: Bring him to church with you and see if he is ready to convert. If not, don't marry him.

If you don't have a partner yet: We are living in a globalised world now. If you don't have an Orthodox partner next door, consider finding one online, even from other countries, and eventually settling together in one place.

Orthodox- non-Orthodox couples usually fail. I know many examples. Many are divorced, others are formally still married, because of money or social pressure. A successful marriage is not something we can built by our own human force. We can only cooperate with Divine Grace in this matter. And therefore, both partners must be practising Orthodox Christians.

[Alpo]

Orthodox- non-Orthodox couples usually fail.

What country you are speaking of?

In Finland there are loads of Lutheran-EO marriages and I don't think the divorce rate in those relationships is anyhow exceptionally high.

[Gorazd]

Orthodox- non-Orthodox couples usually fail.

What country you are speaking of?

In Finland there are loads of Lutheran-EO marriages and I don't think the divorce rate in those relationships is anyhow exceptionally high.

I am speaking of the couples I know, in several countries. I don't know any in Finland, but I do in Sweden.

How serious are the Orthodox partners in these marriages you mention? Do they seriously fast, for example? In my experience, that's extremely annoying for non-Orthodox partners and causes conflicts concerning the children, such as the non-Orthodox partner constantly giving them chocolate during even Great Lent etc.

Another problem is going to Church. If the Orthodox spouse goes with the children and the non-Orthodox spouse doesn't go at all, then often the children will want to stay home or do other activities with the non-Orthodox parent. Now probably that's not such a big issue in Finland, since many Lutherans like attending the Orthodox Church. There's even a Finnish Lutheran woman in Paris who attends the Rue Daru, because it's just like the Orthodox Church she knows from home.

[LizaSymonenko]

I agree with Gorazd.

If your ultimate plan is to marry and raise your children Orthodox, the best route is to find an Orthodox spouse.

Yes, it may still work out with a non-Orthodox spouse, however, it will NOT be easy, no matter what he/she says in the beginning.

Our holidays are different (especially if Old Calendar), our traditions are different, etc.

Make it easier on yourself and your kids, and stick with Orthodox spouses.

IF for some reason there are no single Orthodox men/women at your parish, be creative and go out and look for one.  Go to Orthodox functions, conventions, etc.   Ask your priest, perhaps he can speak to a neighboring priest, and inquire if there are any singles at his parish.

Even ask the old ladies...sometimes grandmas know other grandmas who have a friend with a single adult child, etc.

I wish you all the best.

[vamrat]

I'm with Gorazd and Liza.

Any relationship is going to revolve around a mental checklist of what traits you want.  In my case, Orthodoxy will make up for one or two lost hotness points. 

[LizaSymonenko]

...or just remain single.   

[William]

Christians.

[Pan Michał]

Christians.

What's with them?

[OrthoNoob]

Could be hypothetical, but let's assume a severe absence of attractive, age-appropriate, single Orthodox people. What kind of denominations would you consider for dating/a possible relationship with members of and why?  And how/when would you approach the matter?

I would do my very best not to mistake a partner for a bishop. If you are dating a someone, what are his/her beliefs is not one of the first questions. You can find a wrong EO person and you can find right atheist person.

If you want an EO wedding, the atheist had better be willing to be baptized...

[Pan Michał]

If you want an EO wedding, the atheist had better be willing to be baptized...

Wedding? Single people should not worry about wedding, but about that they're currently single.

[OrthoNoob]

If you want an EO wedding, the atheist had better be willing to be baptized...

Wedding? Single people should not worry about wedding, but about that they're currently single.

If you are dating to find someone to marry, it makes no sense to me to date someone you can't possibly marry. If you are not dating to find someone to marry, then you must either be planning on:

1. Having non-marital sexual relations (which is forbidden by the Church, and thus not a goal for faithful Orthodox Christians.)

or

2. Permanent celibate dating (if that's what you want, go ahead; it doesn't sound appealing to me.)

or

3. Dating for a while, and then breaking up (Again, if that's what you want, go ahead, but it sounds like a lot of pointless pain to me.)

What am I missing?

[Pan Michał]

What am I missing?

That you worry about succession for your future empire, but don't even own a house yet.

[OrthoNoob]

What am I missing?

That you worry about succession for your future empire, but don't even own a house yet.

Your point is well-taken. But on the other hand, don't set out to build a house before making sure you can finish it, and all that.

[vamrat]

What am I missing?

That you worry about succession for your future empire, but don't even own a house yet.

Your point is well-taken. But on the other hand, don't set out to build a house before making sure you can finish it, and all that.

And the Church is opposed to yurts, tipis, and lean-toos.

[Anastasia1]

I agree with Gorazd.

If your ultimate plan is to marry and raise your children Orthodox, the best route is to find an Orthodox spouse.

Yes, it may still work out with a non-Orthodox spouse, however, it will NOT be easy, no matter what he/she says in the beginning.

Our holidays are different (especially if Old Calendar), our traditions are different, etc.

Make it easier on yourself and your kids, and stick with Orthodox spouses.

IF for some reason there are no single Orthodox men/women at your parish, be creative and go out and look for one.  Go to Orthodox functions, conventions, etc.   Ask your priest, perhaps he can speak to a neighboring priest, and inquire if there are any singles at his parish.

Even ask the old ladies...sometimes grandmas know other grandmas who have a friend with a single adult child, etc.

I wish you all the best.

How does one ask old ladies without seeming desperate?

[Schultz]

I agree with Gorazd.

If your ultimate plan is to marry and raise your children Orthodox, the best route is to find an Orthodox spouse.

Yes, it may still work out with a non-Orthodox spouse, however, it will NOT be easy, no matter what he/she says in the beginning.

Our holidays are different (especially if Old Calendar), our traditions are different, etc.

Make it easier on yourself and your kids, and stick with Orthodox spouses.

IF for some reason there are no single Orthodox men/women at your parish, be creative and go out and look for one.  Go to Orthodox functions, conventions, etc.   Ask your priest, perhaps he can speak to a neighboring priest, and inquire if there are any singles at his parish.

Even ask the old ladies...sometimes grandmas know other grandmas who have a friend with a single adult child, etc.

I wish you all the best.

How does one ask old ladies without seeming desperate?

Chances are if they see you single long enough, they'll ask YOU.

[Pan Michał]

Your point is well-taken. But on the other hand, don't set out to build a house before making sure you can finish it, and all that.

Orthonoob, I don't think you understand what I am trying to say, so let me elaborate on that:

The point in dating someone is to try to create something new. You meet a person, when you befriend her you are entering a whole new world. You learn about her needs, dreams, hopes. You see the richness of that person. Then you find out, that she also has her "dark side", in this case it is atheism. But you love the way she smiles, thinks, and so forth. So, you are dating that person, hoping that your emotions will evolve in something even greater. Maybe she will "convert" to christianity, and you will be able to marry and be happy with you. And maybe not, maybe your bond will not become so strong. And then you would have to break up, but without even trying you will never know. Many people here tend to dislike the way people label us. But aren't you (I'm not talking about you, Orthonoob, just about the thought pattern) labeling everyone else to "Orthodox" and "non-Orthodox"? We are all human beings, children of God, first and foremost. Jesus is said to be saying: "you see your brother, you see your God". This is the first principle in dating anyone - I think so, at least. Is she orthodox, catholic, evangelical, pagan, atheist - this is not the first question. Dating is about finding someone and trying to create something - maybe mature love that will lead to a marriage, maybe it will turn out to be just friendship, you never know. But it is unfair - to yourself - to scratch someone off the list because that person does not share the same, or even similar belief as you do, no matter if she is a great person or not. You do not give yourself chances - maybe that anti-christian (wo)man is your best candidate to be your spouse, you just need a little work? Or maybe not, maybe you will befriend her. This you never know, you need to try.

I do not take things like that lightly, because like I said - you are not dating a toy, but a human being. Still, trying to plan everything or assume anything is the best way to stay and have nothing at all. Dating is not getting married yet. It is more than friendship, because you create a whole new way of life with another person, and this is beautiful. You change for someone and someone tries to change for you. Will it go all good, or not? No idea. But this is life, this is what relationships are all about.

Everyone has marriage somewhere in the back of his head when dating a woman/man. But on the back of the head, not at the frontline.

That is what I am trying to say.

[LizaSymonenko]

I agree with Gorazd.

If your ultimate plan is to marry and raise your children Orthodox, the best route is to find an Orthodox spouse.

Yes, it may still work out with a non-Orthodox spouse, however, it will NOT be easy, no matter what he/she says in the beginning.

Our holidays are different (especially if Old Calendar), our traditions are different, etc.

Make it easier on yourself and your kids, and stick with Orthodox spouses.

IF for some reason there are no single Orthodox men/women at your parish, be creative and go out and look for one.  Go to Orthodox functions, conventions, etc.   Ask your priest, perhaps he can speak to a neighboring priest, and inquire if there are any singles at his parish.

Even ask the old ladies...sometimes grandmas know other grandmas who have a friend with a single adult child, etc.

I wish you all the best.

How does one ask old ladies without seeming desperate?

Can your mom or older relative ask, on your behalf?

You'd be amazed what mom's will do. 

[OrthoNoob]

Your point is well-taken. But on the other hand, don't set out to build a house before making sure you can finish it, and all that.

Orthonoob, I don't think you understand what I am trying to say, so let me elaborate on that:

The point in dating someone is to try to create something new. You meet a person, when you befriend her you are entering a whole new world. You learn about her needs, dreams, hopes. You see the richness of that person. Then you find out, that she also has her "dark side", in this case it is atheism. But you love the way she smiles, thinks, and so forth. So, you are dating that person, hoping that your emotions will evolve in something even greater. Maybe she will "convert" to christianity, and you will be able to marry and be happy with you. And maybe not, maybe your bond will not become so strong. And then you would have to break up, but without even trying you will never know. Many people here tend to dislike the way people label us. But aren't you (I'm not talking about you, Orthonoob, just about the thought pattern) labeling everyone else to "Orthodox" and "non-Orthodox"? We are all human beings, children of God, first and foremost. Jesus is said to be saying: "you see your brother, you see your God". This is the first principle in dating anyone - I think so, at least. Is she orthodox, catholic, evangelical, pagan, atheist - this is not the first question. Dating is about finding someone and trying to create something - maybe mature love that will lead to a marriage, maybe it will turn out to be just friendship, you never know. But it is unfair - to yourself - to scratch someone off the list because that person does not share the same, or even similar belief as you do, no matter if she is a great person or not. You do not give yourself chances - maybe that anti-christian (wo)man is your best candidate to be your spouse, you just need a little work? Or maybe not, maybe you will befriend her. This you never know, you need to try.

I do not take things like that lightly, because like I said - you are not dating a toy, but a human being. Still, trying to plan everything or assume anything is the best way to stay and have nothing at all. Dating is not getting married yet. It is more than friendship, because you create a whole new way of life with another person, and this is beautiful. You change for someone and someone tries to change for you. Will it go all good, or not? No idea. But this is life, this is what relationships are all about.

Everyone has marriage somewhere in the back of his head when dating a woman/man. But on the back of the head, not at the frontline.

That is what I am trying to say.

OK. I can accept that.

[Shiny]

Yes, it may still work out with a non-Orthodox spouse, however, it will NOT be easy, no matter what he/she says in the beginning.

I wish quietmorning was here to comment, because from her experience it sounded very difficult.

[choy]

I would do my very best not to mistake a partner for a bishop. If you are dating a someone, what are his/her beliefs is not one of the first questions. You can find a wrong EO person and you can find right atheist person.

There should be a list of faiths that are a no-no.  Certain religions are hardline "you must convert to our faith or else".  When I was dating that was at the top of my list.  Especially those neo-Arian sects like the Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) in the Philippines (and they are now found everywhere Filipinos are found).  They are brainwashed into not even being open to leaving the faith (they are a cult by all standards) so there is no way one will convert out of the faith especially if the entire family is a part of the faith (the ministers have been known to pressure the family to pressure the person leaving, which includes emotional blackmail).

So yeah, there are certain religions to avoid.

[vamrat]

I would do my very best not to mistake a partner for a bishop. If you are dating a someone, what are his/her beliefs is not one of the first questions. You can find a wrong EO person and you can find right atheist person.

There should be a list of faiths that are a no-no.  Certain religions are hardline "you must convert to our faith or else".  When I was dating that was at the top of my list.  Especially those neo-Arian sects like the Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) in the Philippines (and they are now found everywhere Filipinos are found).  They are brainwashed into not even being open to leaving the faith (they are a cult by all standards) so there is no way one will convert out of the faith especially if the entire family is a part of the faith (the ministers have been known to pressure the family to pressure the person leaving, which includes emotional blackmail).

So yeah, there are certain religions to avoid.

I try to avoid Aztec women.  I want a girl who will steal my heart...not rip it out of my rib cage and give it to the sun-god.

[Anastasia1]

Even ask the old ladies...sometimes grandmas know other grandmas who have a friend with a single adult child, etc.

I wish you all the best.

How does one ask old ladies without seeming desperate?

Can your mom or older relative ask, on your behalf?

You'd be amazed what mom's will do.  

In my personal case (though not the only reason for the thread), no.

[Anastasia1]

Christians.

That is a very broad category. Would you be ok with dating a Seventh Day Adventist then? Southern Baptist? Anglican?

[William]

Christians.

That is a very broad category. Would you be ok with dating a Seventh Day Adventist then? Southern Baptist? Anglican?

It's on an individual basis, but in general, yes to all three.

[Anastasia1]

Christians.

That is a very broad category. Would you be ok with dating a Seventh Day Adventist then? Southern Baptist? Anglican?

It's on an individual basis, but in general, yes to all three.

Why? Why would all three potentially be ok?

[OrthoNoob]

Taking in mind Pan Michal's (excuse the ordinary Latin L) good points, I'm changing my thinking a bit about who I might hypothetically "date." But a distinction has to be made, too, between different meanings of "dating."

If "dating" just means spending time with a woman and getting to know her, I don't have any prerequisites really.

If "dating" means having some kind of "serious," exclusive, romantic relationship (which it seems to me in a Christian context implies that marriage is at least possible), I'd be very careful about doing that with someone I might be impeded by the Church from marrying. (You wouldn't date a godsibling in this way, would you, Michal?)

And I don't think I'd marry anyone who wasn't:

A. Orthodox or willing to become Orthodox

or

B. Catholic.

But I reserve the right to change my mind on that, especially in favor of a high-church conservative Protestant.

[William]

Christians.

That is a very broad category. Would you be ok with dating a Seventh Day Adventist then? Southern Baptist? Anglican?

It's on an individual basis, but in general, yes to all three.

Why? Why would all three potentially be ok?

They believe in Christ, and why add unnecessary burdens when the church allows it?

[LizaSymonenko]

Yes, it may still work out with a non-Orthodox spouse, however, it will NOT be easy, no matter what he/she says in the beginning.

I wish quietmorning was here to comment, because from her experience it sounded very difficult.

My sister is EO, and she married an RC.

I can tell you first hand it is very, very difficult.

I am the godmother of all four kids, who have an RC father....I can tell you, it's very, very difficult.

[Melodist]

They believe in Christ, and why add unnecessary burdens when the church allows it?

Children growing up hearing conflicting religious teachings in their own home while one of their parents doesn't go to church with the rest of the family is a burden. An unnecessary burden, everyone's situation is unique so I can't say unnecessary, but still a burden that one should be aware of and look to either eliminate if possible or minimize as much as possible.

[William]

They believe in Christ, and why add unnecessary burdens when the church allows it?

Children growing up hearing conflicting religious teachings in their own home while one of their parents doesn't go to church with the rest of the family is a burden. An unnecessary burden, everyone's situation is unique so I can't say unnecessary, but still a burden that one should be aware of and look to either eliminate if possible or minimize as much as possible.

Well my hope would be that they'd convert.

[tuesdayschild]

Yes, it may still work out with a non-Orthodox spouse, however, it will NOT be easy, no matter what he/she says in the beginning.

I wish quietmorning was here to comment, because from her experience it sounded very difficult.

My sister is EO, and she married an RC.

I can tell you first hand it is very, very difficult.

I am the godmother of all four kids, who have an RC father....I can tell you, it's very, very difficult.

Do you feel comfortable sharing examples of the difficulties? This is relevant to a situation near and dear to me.

[Melodist]

They believe in Christ, and why add unnecessary burdens when the church allows it?

Children growing up hearing conflicting religious teachings in their own home while one of their parents doesn't go to church with the rest of the family is a burden. An unnecessary burden, everyone's situation is unique so I can't say unnecessary, but still a burden that one should be aware of and look to either eliminate if possible or minimize as much as possible.

[Alpo]

How serious are the Orthodox partners in these marriages you mention? Do they seriously fast, for example? In my experience, that's extremely annoying for non-Orthodox partners and causes conflicts concerning the children, such as the non-Orthodox partner constantly giving them chocolate during even Great Lent etc.

I don't know any of them personally but they are pretty common in Finland. I think they can work if both parties of the relationship are normal, polite Human beings

Now probably that's not such a big issue in Finland

Correct. And the Orthodox can attend Lutheran church from time to time just out of reciprocation.

[stanley123]

My sister is EO, and she married an RC.

I can tell you first hand it is very, very difficult.

Could the EO Church make it a bit easier on RC's who are married to EO? I know that the Coptic Orthodox do.

[Pan Michał]

If "dating" means having some kind of "serious," exclusive, romantic relationship (which it seems to me in a Christian context implies that marriage is at least possible), I'd be very careful about doing that with someone I might be impeded by the Church from marrying. (You wouldn't date a godsibling in this way, would you, Michal?)

I wouldn't, pathologies are a no-no.

[Pan Michał]

There should be a list of faiths that are a no-no.  Certain religions are hardline "you must convert to our faith or else".  When I was dating that was at the top of my list.  Especially those neo-Arian sects like the Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ) in the Philippines (and they are now found everywhere Filipinos are found).  They are brainwashed into not even being open to leaving the faith (they are a cult by all standards) so there is no way one will convert out of the faith especially if the entire family is a part of the faith (the ministers have been known to pressure the family to pressure the person leaving, which includes emotional blackmail).

So yeah, there are certain religions to avoid.

Come on, Romeo and Juliet had much more bigger problems, than some miserable sects - i.e., their families . Although I get your point.


Btw., sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses, in a way.

[Anastasia1]

If "dating" means having some kind of "serious," exclusive, romantic relationship (which it seems to me in a Christian context implies that marriage is at least possible), I'd be very careful about doing that with someone I might be impeded by the Church from marrying. (You wouldn't date a godsibling in this way, would you, Michal?)

I wouldn't, pathologies are a no-no.

What is a godsibling?

[celticfan1888]

Could be hypothetical, but let's assume a severe absence of attractive, age-appropriate, single Orthodox people. What kind of denominations would you consider for dating/a possible relationship with members of and why?  And how/when would you approach the matter?

I'm engaged to a Latin, although she is now considering Orthodoxy.

[OrthoNoob]

If "dating" means having some kind of "serious," exclusive, romantic relationship (which it seems to me in a Christian context implies that marriage is at least possible), I'd be very careful about doing that with someone I might be impeded by the Church from marrying. (You wouldn't date a godsibling in this way, would you, Michal?)

I wouldn't, pathologies are a no-no.

What is a godsibling?

Someone who shares your godparents (or one of them, I guess.)