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CatholicEagle
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« on: December 09, 2004, 12:18:49 AM »

 Tell us which book should be burnt immediatley and all copies of it destroyed
List your answers by number after me [like 1. , 2. , 3.] Write as many as you want andafter venting write continue next

1. all the works of Karl Rahner SJ
2. heretical versions of the Bible
 continue next

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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2004, 12:20:02 AM »

I LOVED Karl Rahner's "The Trinity." What an excellent book. It took 900 years to rip Aquinas's scholasticism to shreds, but it was worth the wait. I don't see how you can read that book and believe in Thomistic trinitarian theology anymore.

Other Rahner books I have not read though and I keep hearing they are liberal. Are they?

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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2004, 01:15:54 AM »

Supposedly "On the Development of Dogma" is a little extreme, even by RC standards.  As to the book-burning list...
3)anything by "bishop" Spong
4)anything by Dr. Laura
5)Thomas Merton's late works
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2004, 01:16:22 AM »

I LOVED Karl Rahner's "The Trinity." What an excellent book. It took 900 years to rip Aquinas's scholasticism to shreds, but it was worth the wait. I don't see how you can read that book and believe in Thomistic trinitarian theology anymore.

Other Rahner books I have not read though and I keep hearing they are liberal. Are they?

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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2004, 01:42:12 AM »

Are you kidding me anastasios!!! Please say yes
Sir, the priest was a Jesuit who went on escapades with a german woman, who is now a "feminist activist". This lady wants female priests!!! What type of priest was he if he hng around such people! and accpeted them! not telling them to converyt


Have you read Rahner's the Trinity? Yes or no will suffice.

Anastasios
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2004, 03:24:02 AM »

Are you kidding me anastasios!!! Please say yes
Sir, the priest was a Jesuit who went on escapades with a german woman, who is now a "feminist activist".


Saint Augustine was no angel himself. Are you suggesting we burn his works?
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2004, 06:27:31 AM »

I don't believe in burning any books. I love to read books by people that I disagree with on many subjects. It's the best way to be able to tear their arguments apart in a good debate.  Reading books with which we disagree teaches us HOW our opponents think.  If we burn all their books, how can be ever be properly prepared to debate them?
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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2004, 06:28:21 AM »

Book burning, now where have we heard of that before? A dubious activity at best, perhaps?

Accepting the doubtful premise, here goes and in no particular order:

The Book of Mormom
All copies of the Watchtower
The Origin of Species, Charles Darwin
Lady Chatterley's lover, George Bernard Shaw
Mao's little red book
Mein Kampf
Thyatiera Confession, Archbishop Athenagoras

If I was more with it the list might rival, shudder, the notorious Index! But that would be to fall into a trap, I guess............... Have fun.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2004, 10:08:48 AM »

I'm with Tikhon.  The mere jocular suggestion at book burning scares me.
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2004, 12:00:23 PM »

Me too...  I would only advocate burning books if they were really really badly written, which there are quite a few out there.  Burning books because of the ideas is a frightening concept, as every book will have someone wanting to burn it, no matter how good the contents are.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2004, 04:27:25 PM »

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of books that I have read that I disagree with but I wouldn't burn them.

Books that I have disagreed with but wouldn't burn...

Dancing Alone
The Book of Mormon
The DaVinci Code
Anything by Dobson
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2004, 05:07:16 PM »

Quote
The Book of Mormom
All copies of the Watchtower
The Origin of Species, Charles Darwin
Lady Chatterley's lover, George Bernard Shaw
Mao's little red book
Mein Kampf
Thyatiera Confession, Archbishop Athenagoras


Wow, pretty close to what I was thinking also accept I don't know what the last book was about. I would also throw in anything written by Michael Moore and Karl Marx Cool

I totally agree on the watchtower stuff and book of mormon. If those two cults were never around that would have saved me many many hours of past debates with these people which was basically a big waste of time and energy.
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2004, 05:46:08 PM »

I wanna burn all those cheap and inexpensive romance novels they sell at cash registers, the really thick ones where the woman on the cover is enraptured by and embracing the large, beefy Fabio look-alike, and the title is in big gold letters, and the entire thing is raised from the paper so that even the blind can feel Fabio, and take him home for only $2.95.  I want to burn them because they suck.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2004, 05:47:16 PM »

Me too...  I would only advocate burning books if they were really really badly written, which there are quite a few out there.  Burning books because of the ideas is a frightening concept, as every book will have someone wanting to burn it, no matter how good the contents are.  
but what if the ideas lead you to hell??? Didn't St.Athanasius punch Arius in the face, for spereading his heresies? Wink
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2004, 05:51:01 PM »

Book burning, eh? I was hoping that this was some kind of trick question.
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2004, 05:51:26 PM »

Quote
but what if the ideas lead you to hell??? Didn't St.Athanasius punch Arius in the face, for spereading his heresies?

For starters, legend has it that it was St. Nicholas who hit Arius.  

A much better way to combat evil ideas is to combat them with words, not flames.  As Christians, we are called to not be slaves to our passions, and that includes burning books.  We should be able to explain why ideas are bad and point people towards Christ so each person can accept Him of his or her own free will.  


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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2004, 06:10:49 PM »

Anything by Ann Raynd is okay to burn.
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2004, 06:12:09 PM »

Anything by Ann Raynd is okay to burn.

I had a friend who liked her. He read ALL of her books. Such a weird philosophy.

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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2004, 06:16:02 PM »

It's not her philosophy I find weird. It's her long on words writing that is like a spike through your skull!
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2004, 06:40:48 PM »

I had a friend who liked her. He read ALL of her books. Such a weird philosophy.

Anastasios

How old was he when he "discovered" Rand?  I have a theory that adolescents can be very drawn to Rand.  I think it's because her philosophy can very 'liberating' to young people.  

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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2004, 06:44:33 PM »

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Anything by Ann Raynd is okay to burn.

I was really into Ayn Rand in late high school...a lot of it made sense to me...i was a bit confused about a lot of things tho (still am! Tongue ) but yea, then i sort of reevaluated my faith in college, and the next time i thought of Rand, the thought was: oh man, she doesn't fly with me anymore - it's hard enough as it is to take the focus off of the self, but to have her encouraging it made me realize that my Rand days are over... Smiley

i still dont think it should be burned tho...i mean, my Rand phase was very important in my journey to the Church...generally, i dont think anything should be burned, for the reasons many have already stated...i mean, you need the opposite view in order for your view to even exist...many truths are reactionary to what is false and are only comprehensible AS truth when considered in relation to its counter-argument...
 
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Books that I have disagreed with but wouldn't burn...

Dancing Alone
The Book of Mormon
The DaVinci Code
Anything by Dobson

Phos Zoe: what didn't you agree with in "Dancing Alone"? my priest has loaned it to me, and i plan to read it (among other books) during my winter break coming up...i will read it regardless, but i'm just curious Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2004, 06:45:25 PM »

Quote
How old was he when he "discovered" Rand?  I have a theory that adolescents can be very drawn to Rand.  I think it's because her philosophy can very 'liberating' to young people.

Jennifer, I concur...this is basically what happened to me (senior year of high school).
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2004, 07:05:51 PM »

For starters, legend has it that it was St. Nicholas who hit Arius.  

A much better way to combat evil ideas is to combat them with words, not flames.  As Christians, we are called to not be slaves to our passions, and that includes burning books.  We should be able to explain why ideas are bad and point people towards Christ so each person can accept Him of his or her own free will.  

I put a Wink after that post. Somehow it disappeared
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2004, 07:08:31 PM »

Yes CE, the smilies aren't working if you use Internet Explorer, you'll have to just kind of invent your own, like this...   =) or :-)
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2004, 07:13:57 PM »

For starters, legend has it that it was St. Nicholas who hit Arius.  

A much better way to combat evil ideas is to combat them with words, not flames.  As Christians, we are called to not be slaves to our passions, and that includes burning books.  We should be able to explain why ideas are bad and point people towards Christ so each person can accept Him of his or her[no more feminist revionism of the english language!] own free will.  
Well sometimes books need to be destroyed. If we prove to one person what he says is wrong and he believes, the book that taught him this is left alone and put back so more persons can fall into this error and the refutation of the heresy goes on and on in a continous cycle. Why let ths heresy grow, when it can be destroyed. Don't underestimate the power of books.

Our Lady is called the Exterminatrix of Heresies by us Catholics.  She is not called  the  "fight heresies,refute them to one person, and then let the source of the heresy exist so as to contaminate others-ix"
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2004, 08:09:02 PM »

For starters, we could send in the "firemen" to burn Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451".  A book which perhaps some of the advocates of book burning would find dangerous.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2004, 08:37:19 PM »

If the books of the ancient heretics were still around, maybe we could thus better understand the reaction of the Orthodox and get a better historical perspective in some cases.
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2004, 08:53:49 PM »

Our Lady is called the Exterminatrix of Heresies by us Catholics.

Kewl, dude!  Where is this to be found in the texts of the Church?
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2004, 09:16:17 PM »

If the books of the ancient heretics were still around, maybe we could thus better understand the reaction of the Orthodox and get a better historical perspective in some cases.
I say monasteries -  but taking into fact that most books pre1800 are now decomposed I hardly believe that it would be possible to get these books. I also believe that the knowledge the Church has given to us through the ages, in Her teaching wisdom is sufficient enough but I do see what your getting at. Sadly though, what you say can be stretched out to say "We need to read the  pseudoGospels to find out about what Mary Magdalene and JEsus did." This could result in a major insult to the Christ, and as we all know He must be glorified by all,not abhorred,hated and ridiculed
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2004, 09:42:10 PM »

Hmm...seems like most people are taking this a bit more seriously than I did...perhaps I should clarify that I was just joking...except perhaps about the Dr. Laura books. ;-)  But seriously, you never know how a certain book, or anything for that matter, is going to influence someone.  There is very little that is wholly false, and the closer something is to being so, the more likely it is to repel the reader, perhaps leading them in an indirect way to the truth.  As a personal example, the writings of Nietzsche played a role in bringing me back to faith after a time away.
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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2004, 10:15:49 PM »

Well sometimes books need to be destroyed.

And who decides *what* book should be burnt?  What if someone doesn't like a book that *you* do? I don't trust humans to have that kind of power. The temptation to Sin is too strong.

Burning books is evil.  I see that Theodore beat me to citing "Farenheit 451"  A book that should be read more often.  I can also recommend Nat Hentoff's "The Day They Came to Arrest the Book" a young adult novel about an attempt to get "Huckleberry Finn" out of a school.  (Something that has happened in real life)

And who is to say that such "cleansing"/burning would stop at "heresies"?  Why stop there? What would stop someonewho had that power from getting rid of volumes that he/she didn't happen to like or approve of in other areas?

Quote
Why let ths heresy grow, when it can be destroyed.

What guarantee is there that it will be gone permanently with one burned book?  Arianism has popped up centuries after Arius (JW's for example)  How are you going to keep an idea from developing in a Human mind?

Quote
Don't underestimate the power of books.

I assure you, I don't.  Neither do I underestimate the lure of Power to a human being.  "Who will guard the guardians?"

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Our Lady is called the Exterminatrix of Heresies by us Catholics.  

Perhaps one could leave things to her and keep the human hands off the match boxes.

Ebor

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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2004, 10:18:05 PM »

I'm with Tikhon.  The mere jocular suggestion at book burning scares me.

Same here, Schultz.  It has a bad history.

Ebor
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2004, 10:20:36 PM »

I wanna burn all those cheap and inexpensive romance novels they sell at cash registers, the really thick ones where the woman on the cover is enraptured by and embracing the large, beefy Fabio look-alike, and the title is in big gold letters, and the entire thing is raised from the paper so that even the blind can feel Fabio, and take him home for only $2.95.  I want to burn them because they suck.    

Not my cuppa, but will you then let the ladies who like those books burn one that you like, but they don't?  8-)

Ebor
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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2004, 10:24:26 PM »

Anything by Ann Raynd is okay to burn.

Eh, there are some good bits of writing in The Fountainpen errr head  8-) It's getting to them through the manifesto that can be hard.   I have to confess that I've never made it through Atlas Slogged and let's not get started on Anthem

Ebor
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2004, 10:31:31 PM »

At least Anthem's short lol.  The suffering only lasts so long...
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2004, 10:33:34 PM »

I say monasteries -  but taking into fact that most books pre1800 are now decomposed I hardly believe that it would be possible to get these books.

<raised eyebrow glyph> Oh?  There are still books from centuries ago that survive with care.  And things written on parchment or vellum can last a very long time, and that was the common medium for writting for quite a while until paper making was easier (I am speaking here of Europe and the Middle East here.  The making of paper in many elaborate forms was highly developed in Japan over 1000 years ago, for example)

Just a suggestion:  People who advocate burning books that they don't like can be objects of ridicule and abhorrance to others who may extend those feelings to that which the burners proclaim...such as Jesus.

Ebor  "So Many Books, So Little Time"
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2004, 10:33:48 PM »

Quote
Eh, there are some good bits of writing in The Fountainpen errr head  8-) It's getting to them through the manifesto that can be hard.  I have to confess that I've never made it through Atlas Slogged and let's not get started on Anthem

Ebor

I have read Fountainhead and Anthem...Anthem was fun just as a futuristic, extremist sorta thing...i like tales like that, about "what if's?" regarding our future as a race, etc...basically for intellectual reasons more than anything else (I rarely believe in the ideologies that give birth to such depictions..I just like to think Smiley )...Fountainhead was the one I read and was very into (picked it up to try to win some scholarship money - the Ayn Rand Institute has essay contests if u read the books and write essays on em...I didnt win, alas)...I own Atlas Shrugged, but havent read it, and dont know if I will ever get the time or desire to actually pick it up and try: I've discovered a lot more reading that I'm far more interested in, since I bought it, and I very well may never get to it. Oh well. Wink

I'm not gunna burn it tho, caz I paid for it! lol i'll prolly sell it or donate it one day Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2004, 10:36:39 PM »

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 At least Anthem's short lol.  The suffering only lasts so long...

Yes, that was a perk, and the reason I made it my second Rand read (after Fountainhead) instead of Atlas Shrugged Wink...it also turned out to be my last Rand read...not because of Anthem specifically, but just because of where I suddenly found myself on my spiritual journey when I thought about her again, mid-college, and realized I had lost interest.
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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2004, 10:38:10 PM »

At least Anthem's short lol.  The suffering only lasts so long...

Well, there *is* that.  <grin>

Ebor
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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2004, 11:53:37 PM »

I say monasteries -  but taking into fact that most books pre1800 are now decomposed I hardly believe that it would be possible to get these books.

CE,

Come to SVS library and I can show you plenty of books pre-1800 that are still in good shape.  The paper in fact is much sturdier than what was being used until recently.  

Are you gonna answer my previous question to you?

Tony
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I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
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I'll see you when yo
Ebor
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« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2004, 12:01:13 AM »

I have read Fountainhead and Anthem...Anthem was fun just as a futuristic, extremist sorta thing...i like tales like that, about "what if's?" regarding our future as a race, etc...basically for intellectual reasons more than anything else (I rarely believe in the ideologies that give birth to such depictions..I just like to think

I read "Anthem" for the future dystopia/SF angle.  It was the part near the end where the protagonist is naming the woman and coming across like Howard Roarke without the buildings that it got me squint-eyed.  *He* can be a ruler and master of his destiny but she is a sort of "yes-woman" to his enlightened state.  It's been over a decade maybe 2 since I read it.  But I think I have it somewhere on the shelves along with the 2 Major Tomes.  

If you like speculations of future societies/dystopias/utopias I can recommend some good ones.

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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Ebor
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« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2004, 12:05:52 AM »

CE,

Come to SVS library and I can show you plenty of books pre-1800 that are still in good shape.  The paper in fact is much sturdier than what was being used until recently.  
Tony

Yep.  The paper then wasn't the acid kind that's so common now (recall that top drawer books note that they're printed on "acid free paper".  I speculate that a higher rag content also helped rather then straight wood pulp like in newsprint paper.

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Donna Rose
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« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2004, 12:12:20 AM »

Quote
If you like speculations of future societies/dystopias/utopias I can recommend some good ones.

This is the aspect of Sci-Fi that I am interested in...mostly my interests lie in Fantasy (vs. Sci-Fi), but the quasi-realistic future-speculating sorta sci-fi is something I am very into Smiley I would love some recommendations...my personal favorite thus far is The Time Machine by H.G. Wells...that blew my mind. Smiley I have yet to read 1984, but have it on my shelf and will get to it eventually I am sure.

Actually, that was a lie...my ACTUAL favorite is The Giver by Lois Lowrey...that's downright one of my favorite books (futuristic or otherwise)...and to complement it is the latest book Lowrey wrote as a companion to The Giver, called Gathering Blue, which is sort of another angle on a possible future for us, with the possibility that the world of The Giver might run simultaneously, if that makes sense. You hafta read it to get what I mean, but what I especially love about Gathering Blue is that the young protagonist is a girl Smiley I am very excited because Lowrey says she is planning to write a third to round out the trilogy-cluster that began with The Giver. Smiley
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hmmmm...
TonyS
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« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2004, 12:12:54 AM »

Yep.  The paper then wasn't the acid kind that's so common now (recall that top drawer books note that they're printed on "acid free paper".  I speculate that a higher rag content also helped rather then straight wood pulp like in newsprint paper.

Ebor

Dear Ebor,

Yes, we know have to provide our theses on acid-free paper as the paper with acid deteriorates.  

Many of the older books' binding is in bad condition but the paper is still in reasonably good shape.

Tony
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
...
I'll see you when yo
Keble
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« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2004, 12:29:07 AM »

Burning books is counter-productive. It just lends more authority to the surviving copies.
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