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« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2004, 04:23:46 AM »

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I wanna burn all those cheap and inexpensive romance novels they sell at cash registers, the really thick ones where the woman on the cover is enraptured by and embracing the large, beefy Fabio look-alike, and the title is in big gold letters, and the entire thing is raised from the paper so that even the blind can feel Fabio, and take him home for only $2.95.  I want to burn them because they suck.

:rofl:  That is absolutely hilarious! Kudos to you Mor. :grin:

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« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2004, 10:09:59 AM »

I was really i
 Phos Zoe: what didn't you agree with in "Dancing Alone"? my priest has loaned it to me, and i plan to read it (among other books) during my winter break coming up...i will read it regardless, but i'm just curious Smiley

Frankie Shaeffer is the progeny of Frances Shaeffer a prominant evangelical christian. Shaeffer the younger has a real anger towards his past and is extremly bitter about Western culture. Many of his arguments are overly simplistic and come off silly. He has NO "real" theological training If I remember correctly he has fine art degree from a bible college.  

Also, I wasn't raised evangelical protestant so I had a hard time relating to his story.

Keep in mind he is no more expert on orthodoxy than your average well read lay person.
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« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2004, 10:17:08 AM »

Also, I wasn't raised evangelical protestant so I had a hard time relating to his story.

Well, I came form a period of Evangelical Protestantism and I thought the book was way to strident and oversimplified Protestantism.

He is doing the typical rabid Orthodox Convert thing (and something that I was also guilty of) in that he damns everything Protestant. It's not so black and white.
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« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2004, 11:06:45 AM »

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Our Lady is called the Exterminatrix of Heresies by us Catholics...

That's funny, because the only place I've ever seen this in "print" is in a couple blogs on the web.  Never in actual print in any of even the most traditional Catholic books I've read, which are quite numerous.  

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« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2004, 12:01:54 PM »

PhoeZoe,

I, too, have reservations about Dancing Alone and about the man's message (I met him in person once).  However, I would like to address two points you made:

"Also, I wasn't raised evangelical protestant so I had a hard time relating to his story."

But wouldn't you say that as living in America you are already exposed to an overwhelmingly Protestant culture?  Most people understand the life Frank S. lived growing up even if it wasn't their family.  Maybe you were lucky (I mean that sincerely) and weren't affected by that as much as others?  It could be a regional thing, too; in the South certainly Protestantism is more openly pervasive and affects non-Protestants to a greater extent than say in California or Michigan.

"Keep in mind he is no more expert on orthodoxy than your average well read lay person."

I can't really agree with you there, because while you are right that he does have no advanced degree, he has years of experience working with the Greek Archdiocese and touring the country giving speeches--he has to have more experience than an average well-read layman then.

Again, I have reservations about the book as well.

Anastasios
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« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2004, 12:20:42 PM »

But wouldn't you say that as living in America you are already exposed to an overwhelmingly Protestant culture?

Ah, but now you're falling into the typical Ortho-Catholic mistake of looking at Protestants as if they represented one single system. Let me assure you that people raised in most of the mainline Protestant bodies find the evangelicals a bit alien-- and that the evangelicals tend to find the mainlines quite alien.

I can't say how much that particular split is reflected in his books, but it's really obvious that he has "convertitis" in spades.
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« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2004, 12:30:39 PM »

I wanna burn all those cheap and inexpensive romance novels they sell at cash registers, the really thick ones where the woman on the cover is enraptured by and embracing the large, beefy Fabio look-alike, and the title is in big gold letters, and the entire thing is raised from the paper so that even the blind can feel Fabio, and take him home for only $2.95.  I want to burn them because they suck.    

LOL... When my brother-in-law first came to the States, because of his long blond hair & very good looks (plus the guy's huge, like 6'5 or something), we called him Fabio.  Being a boy from Ukraine, he had no idea who Fabio was, and it had to be explained to him... amoung the first phrases we taught him to say (on que  Grin ) was.. "I can't believe it's not buttah..."
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« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2004, 12:39:50 PM »

...spray.
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« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2004, 01:03:42 PM »

http://www.ala.org/Images/OIF/28-1124a.gif
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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2004, 01:05:21 PM »

jmell, hopefully this one will come out a bit larger...
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2004, 01:44:00 PM »

Ah, but now you're falling into the typical Ortho-Catholic mistake of looking at Protestants as if they represented one single system. Let me assure you that people raised in most of the mainline Protestant bodies find the evangelicals a bit alien-- and that the evangelicals tend to find the mainlines quite alien.

I can't say how much that particular split is reflected in his books, but it's really obvious that he has "convertitis" in spades.


Well I grew up "Mainstream" and yes we made fun of evangelicals in my home as "wacko" but in reality, Evangelical stuff made its way into our Lutheran Church and our home all the time.

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« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2004, 01:48:01 PM »



But wouldn't you say that as living in America you are already exposed to an overwhelmingly Protestant culture?  Most people understand the life Frank S. lived growing up even if it wasn't their family.  Maybe you were lucky (I mean that sincerely) and weren't affected by that as much as others?  It could be a regional thing, too; in the South certainly Protestantism is more openly pervasive and affects non-Protestants to a greater extent than say in California or Michigan.


I certainly agree that all Americans regardless of religion have been exposed to Protestant culture.  But I think that if you're raised Catholic or Orthodox that you have a kind of 'insulation' against fundamentalism regardless of where you were raised.  

For example, I once dated a Jewish guy from west Texas.  West Texas is Church of Christ country.  There are probably a few hundred Jews in all of west Texas.  However, he had no understanding of Christianity at all which really surprised me.  He went to public school and was raised Reform.  But being Jewish he completely ignored all of the Christian things around him.  

I think the same phenomen exists for those of us raised Catholic or Orthodox.  I've written here before about coming from the Bible Belt.  However, my knowledge of protestantism is completely anecdotal.  I have to admit that my understanding of fundamentalist Christianity is shallow.  
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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2004, 01:52:32 PM »

Burning books is counter-productive. It just lends more authority to the surviving copies.


I guess I have to agree with Keble here. I'm not sure about the authority-thing but these acts do seem a variant of historical revisionism.
Fearing ideas belies one's own belief foundations, no?

That said, last week my wife and I, avid readers both, culled our 3000-4000 volumes. This is an annual event. I came across a book entitled, The Olympian Reader, sent to me from my father who keeps us well supplied with material. Seems he bought it based on the title, did not like it, and sent it on to me -"in case I liked it". It is French pornography in translation. I'm too embarrassed to even give it away.
It will be incinerated here.

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« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2004, 02:03:04 PM »

Quote
That said, last week my wife and I, avid readers both, culled our 3000-4000 volumes. This is an annual event. I came across a book entitled, The Olympian Reader, sent to me from my father who keeps us well supplied with material. Seems he bought it based on the title, did not like it, and sent it on to me -"in case I liked it". It is French pornography in translation. I'm too embarrassed to even give it away.
It will be incinerated here.

LOL.
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« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2004, 02:16:53 PM »

oh my, that photo is scary...
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« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2004, 03:13:55 PM »

:rofl:  That is absolutely hilarious! Kudos to you Mor. :grin:

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I'm glad someone took it for what it really was.  

I'm not much into book-burning myself, for many of the same reasons other posters have presented.  I'm surprised, actually, that this thread was actually taken seriously.  I didn't take it seriously, hence my original post.

I certainly agree that all Americans regardless of religion have been exposed to Protestant culture.  But I think that if you're raised Catholic or Orthodox that you have a kind of 'insulation' against fundamentalism regardless of where you were raised.

Jennifer,

I would agree with this, provided that the person(s) in question worked within the system.  Kim, for example, has never attended any Protestant service whatsoever (probably not even any non-"apostolic Christian" religious service).  I suppose her situation is analogous to your situation and that of your Jewish friend.  However, I know enough Orthodox, EO's, and RC's who are into the fundamentalist Protestant stuff to know that it really depends on how seriously you follow your faith.  Just as our Lord said that no one could snatch His out of His hand, so no one can snatch us out of His Church...but plenty opt to roam around and "see what's out there".
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« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2004, 03:35:18 PM »

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Kim, for example, has never attended any Protestant service whatsoever (probably not even any non-"apostolic Christian" religious service).

This is basically my situation as well (in fact, Kim and I were raised in the same RC church, so we basically have parallel faith-backgrounds, at least up until college Smiley ) - I have never attended a non-apostalic service, as Phil put it - so I would tend to agree with Jennifer...I went to school in a school district with large baptist population, but I never felt oppressed by it or anything. Everyone sort of did their own thing and didn't care what others did, which was nice.
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2004, 05:03:23 PM »


But wouldn't you say that as living in America you are already exposed to an overwhelmingly Protestant culture?  Most people understand the life Frank S. lived growing up even if it wasn't their family.  Maybe you were lucky (I mean that sincerely) and weren't affected by that as much as others?  It could be a regional thing, too; in the South certainly Protestantism is more openly pervasive and affects non-Protestants to a greater extent than say in California or Michigan.
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Good point Anastasios...

Well, I grew up as a Serbian halfbreed in NW Indiana which is a giant melting pot many people (Think Pittsburg but more Midwestern) most of the people I knew growing up where either Orthodox, Mainline Protestant or Roman Catholic. My view of the world as a child was colored by this. My only exposure to Evangelical protestants was Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker on TBN.  I didn't interact with a single Evangelical Protestant until I moved to central Indiana for college. Central Indiana is Evangelical and nondenominational barn church country. I am more affected by EP's now per my location than I was growing up.  So while I agree that America is overwhelmingly Protestant in thought and culture there are pockets of the good ole USA that are not so Protestant.
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2004, 08:30:25 PM »

Couple of points or comments:

First, an Anglican friend of mine once said I would never understand Anglicanism. He was right.

Second, book burning has a rather nasty historical association with totalitarian regimes of the worst kind, along with the brutal treatment and murder of those who oppose them in any way, shape or form.

Third, but this thread is an indulgent phantasy?

Archbishop Athenagora Kokkinas, while a bishop of the EP in London, wrote the Thyteria Confession. It appeared to consign much Orthodox teaching on the uniqueness of the Orthodox Church to the cupboard or closet. It drew much condemnation from traditionlists at the time of publication. Of all the books I have at home, it the only one with a boldly written cautionary note on the front page.........

A close friend of mine was told the following tale by his Serbian parish priest.

An author died and went to hell. He suffered great torments, and was especially afraid of the demons that populated that dark place. After a time he noticed that some of his peers were moved to a place of lesser torment. Having finally struggled to find the courage he asked one of the demons why he was still there. The demon barely appeared to listen but he persisted. The demon growled, "And why should you not be here". The man replied, "I am only a writer of books, but murderers, robbers, and worse come and go, but I a mere writer of books remain here?" And the demon roared, "As long as men read your books so shall you remain in this place of special torment!"

The Serbian priest quite clearly was making what he thought was an important point about the dangers that a book might pose.......
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« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2004, 02:07:41 AM »

Ajj this started as a little joke haha funny. fun fun but then I got serious for some reason[i was talking to neoconCatholics that day, so that;s why] Mor ephrem has the right idea
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« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2004, 02:07:41 AM »

PhoeZoe,

I, too, have reservations about Dancing Alone and about the man's message (I met him in person once).  However, I would like to address two points you made:

"Also, I wasn't raised evangelical protestant so I had a hard time relating to his story."

But wouldn't you say that as living in America you are already exposed to an overwhelmingly Protestant culture?  Most people understand the life Frank S. lived growing up even if it wasn't their family.  Maybe you were lucky (I mean that sincerely) and weren't affected by that as much as others?  It could be a regional thing, too; in the South certainly Protestantism is more openly pervasive and affects non-Protestants to a greater extent than say in California or Michigan.

"Keep in mind he is no more expert on orthodoxy than your average well read lay person."

I can't really agree with you there, because while you are right that he does have no advanced degree, he has years of experience working with the Greek Archdiocese and touring the country giving speeches--he has to have more experience than an average well-read layman then.

Again, I have reservations about the book as well.

Anastasios

Yah anastasios,
We in Michigan also have plenty of Protestants.. [There's only 3 million Catholics here] Especially around Grand Rapids. Please do remember that Michigan also has a huge Muslim population[for da USA] and Muslims are scarier than Protestants with their shrieks to da devil and terrible smelling food.
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« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2004, 03:42:37 AM »

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Ajj this started as a little joke haha funny. fun fun but then I got serious for some reason[i was talking to neoconCatholics that day, so that;s why] Mor ephrem has the right idea

well for me, this thread simply turned into an excuse to talk about books and literature, which is always fun Grin
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« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2004, 09:19:43 AM »

5 whole pages on book burning...and no one's even mentioned the Qu'ran, that filthy, lying, joke of a book?
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« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2004, 09:53:06 AM »

AMEN!  Preach on, brotha!
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« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2004, 10:02:49 AM »

5 whole pages on book burning...and no one's even mentioned the Qu'ran, that filthy, lying, joke of a book?


Why waste a perfectly good match?
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« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2004, 12:11:22 PM »

But wouldn't you say that as living in America you are already exposed to an overwhelmingly Protestant culture?  Most people understand the life Frank S. lived growing up even if it wasn't their family.  Maybe you were lucky (I mean that sincerely) and weren't affected by that as much as others?  It could be a regional thing, too; in the South certainly Protestantism is more openly pervasive and affects non-Protestants to a greater extent than say in California or Michigan.

I was raised Jewish, in New Jersey, so while I was aware of evangelical Protestantism (mostly because of how it's ridiculed on TV all the time), I wasn't that influenced by it. I was brought up in a secular culture. Anyway, it's not so much that I'm not familiar with evangelical Protestantism, but that when I read the plethora of Orthodox books directed towards Protestant inquirers it just didn't apply to me. For instance, I LOVED Matthew Gallatin's Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells, but there were entire chapters that just weren't necessary for me. I never needed anyone to talk to me about Mary and calling a priest "father" and asking the saints to pray for us; they were never issues for me. I had other issues, like calling God "He," the lack of women priests, "organized religion," dogma, etc. (Issues I have since overcome and then some, btw.)

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« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2004, 12:41:10 PM »

Yah anastasios,
We in Michigan also have plenty of Protestants.. [There's only 3 million Catholics here] Especially around Grand Rapids. Please do remember that Michigan also has a huge Muslim population[for da USA] and Muslims are scarier than Protestants with their shrieks to da devil and terrible smelling food.
terrible smelling food???  You've got to be kidding.  Say what you want about the Islamic religion, but middle eastern food is not only pretty tasty, but much more healthy than most western food.  I can't think of any middle-eastern food which can possibly be more foul and disgusting as kiszka (blood sausage).  The age old question "who stole the kiszka?"  can be answered "Someone who wished to spare people from suffering."
BTW, 3 million Roman Catholics out of a population of about 9-10 million is almost 1/3 of the population, which is higher than the national average.  Of course Grand Rapids and much of western Michigan is a Dutch Reformed wasteland...  Wink
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« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2004, 01:07:50 PM »

I can't think of any middle-eastern food which can possibly be more foul and disgusting as kiszka (blood sausage).  The age old question "who stole the kiszka?"  can be answered "Someone who wished to spare people from suffering."

I agree.  While I love Argentine cuisine when it comes to plain old MEAT, they also have "delicacies" such as blood sausage and "sweet bread" which is neither sweet, nor bread...
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« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2004, 02:44:28 PM »

Sounds like "Coffee Talk":  "I'm all for-clempt.  I'll give you a topic- sweet bread.  It's not bread, it's not sweet.  Discuss."
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« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2004, 02:55:22 PM »

CatholicEagle,

My mother lives in Michigan and I have been there many times.  Protestants are not as aggressive as a general rule than in North Carolina. Trust me.

As for the remarks about Arab food, I think it smells good, tastes good, and is generally well the best food on earth.

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« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2004, 03:10:22 PM »

As for the remarks about Arab food, I think it smells good, tastes good, and is generally well the best food on earth.

Yeah, almost on a par with Indian food.   Tongue
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« Reply #76 on: December 11, 2004, 03:21:43 PM »

When it comes to Chicken Reshmi Kabob and Chicken Tikka Masala, I would have to agree with you Phil. But then again, most Indian meat foods came from the Arabs Wink
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« Reply #77 on: December 11, 2004, 05:40:48 PM »

And seeing how most Greek food is really Turkish or Arab, I have to agree with Anastasios's "best food on earth" comment. (Must we do this during the fast? I'm getting lentilitis already.)

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« Reply #78 on: December 11, 2004, 05:45:41 PM »

When it comes to Chicken Reshmi Kabob and Chicken Tikka Masala, I would have to agree with you Phil. But then again, most Indian meat foods came from the Arabs Wink

Bah!  You've never been to the South, what do you know?  Tongue
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« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2004, 05:54:52 PM »

Phil,

First, there was a smiley there just so you are aware LOL (stupid internet explorer bug!)

Second, the Muslims did get all the way down to Tamil Nadu as you know during the Mughal period Smiley (smiley again)

I love Indian vegetarian food though, as well!

Anastasios
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2004, 06:22:57 PM »

Phil,

First, there was a smiley there just so you are aware LOL (stupid internet explorer bug!)

I saw it.  Did you see mine?  Wink

Quote
Second, the Muslims did get all the way down to Tamil Nadu as you know during the Mughal period Smiley (smiley again)

Let's not get started about Tamils, Dustinji... Wink
« Last Edit: December 11, 2004, 06:23:19 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2004, 06:27:10 PM »

Phil,

No I didn't see it LOL

Oh man we need these smilies back.

Anastasios
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« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2004, 07:11:24 PM »

Tell us which book should be burnt immediatley and all copies of it destroyed
List your answers by number after me [like 1. , 2. , 3.] Write as many as you want andafter venting write continue next

1. all the works of Karl Rahner SJ
2. heretical versions of the Bible
 continue next



Well,  I suppose you are kidding  Grin

But anyway, NO BOOK, no matter HOW BLASPHEMOUS, should be destoryed.

The monks of the Eastern Roman Empire, use to copy, with GREAT HARDSHIP , books that were antichristian, such as the works of emperor Julian, or the works of the pagan philosopher Porphyrios.  


P.S.
A comment about Arab/hindu/eastern food: If it doesnt make your eyes red, your nose running, and your ears itching, IT IS NO GOOD. (yes, I like spicy food!  Tongue )

P.S.2
The smileys STILL do not work! :-(
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« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2004, 08:41:44 PM »

"The smileys STILL do not work! :-("

Yes, we are well aware of that. They won't be working until Robert has time to fix them.

Anastasios
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« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2004, 09:08:08 PM »

terrible smelling food???  You've got to be kidding.  Say what you want about the Islamic religion, but middle eastern food is not only pretty tasty, but much more healthy than most western food.  I can't think of any middle-eastern food which can possibly be more foul and disgusting as kiszka (blood sausage).  The age old question "who stole the kiszka?"  can be answered "Someone who wished to spare people from suffering."
BTW, 3 million Roman Catholics out of a population of about 9-10 million is almost 1/3 of the population, which is higher than the national average.  Of course Grand Rapids and much of western Michigan is a Dutch Reformed wasteland...  Wink
Kiszka is peasant Ukrainian food... You people are weird, making a stupid children's song a "philosophical question".As my mother would say "Filozofii!!!!"[Philosophers!!]

Actually true Polish food has been considered more Asian than European for many many years.  Adam Zamoyski, in his book The Polish Way[my addition: the only way!!] tells us that Polish food of the 1600-1700's was very close to North Indian cooking! TAKE THAT!
What is now passed off as Polish food is the peasant food of the 1800's, since the majority of immigrants were peasants.  Also all this sausage  and sweet bread talk is insulting German food not Polish food.
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« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2004, 09:16:40 PM »

Kiszka is peasant Ukrainian food... You people are weird, making a stupid children's song a "philosophical question".As my mother would say "Filozofii!!!!"[Philosophers!!]

Actually true Polish food has been considered more Asian than European for many many years.  Adam Zamoyski, in his book The Polish Way[my addition: the only way!!] tells us that Polish food of the 1600-1700's was very close to North Indian cooking! TAKE THAT!
What is now passed off as Polish food is the peasant food of the 1800's, since the majority of immigrants were peasants.  Also all this sausage  and sweet bread talk is insulting German food not Polish food.


Dude, have you been to Poland?
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« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2004, 09:20:32 PM »

Are you gonna answer my previous question to you?

Tony

CatholicEagle,

This makes it the third time I am asking you.  Have the courtesy to reply please.  

Do you think it is a Christian or a Roman Catholic virtue to be rude?

TonyS
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I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
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I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2004, 09:51:08 PM »

Dude, have you been to Poland?  
Yes dude
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« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2004, 10:05:03 PM »

CE:

So, you talk about Polish food of 1600-1700 as being more like North Indian (of the same period?), and about immigration in the 1800 (to where?).  How does this account for Polish food of today being remarkably well placed?, in other words, it does not stand out from the foods of its neighbors but exists on a continuum.

I've been to Poland too, and I like food, I ate as much as I could.  Like I said above, it is much like the food of its neighbors, the foods of Ukraine, Slovakia and Czech Republich, been to those places too.

Tony
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
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I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2004, 10:09:31 PM »

CatholicEagle,

This makes it the third time I am asking you.  Have the courtesy to reply please.  

Do you think it is a Christian or a Roman Catholic virtue to be rude?

TonyS
Oh kay I can't find a reference.. Sorry the apocalypse isn't here yet
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