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Author Topic: Does Judaism believe in Satan ?  (Read 2604 times) Average Rating: 0
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Great googly moogly!


« on: September 04, 2012, 06:45:27 PM »

I was recently told by a person who said he was Jewish, that in the case of the book of Job, for example , they do not believe it literally as Satan really exists, only as an Metaphorical example of what evils may befall someone.

He also went on to say that Christianity has invented the notion of Demons and the actual entity of Satan.

This person is a respected person of his community and has always been knowledgeable about issues of the old testament , and helpful to me in many instances in the past.

Does anyone here have experience with Jewish beliefs in the Devil , Demons , or Satan?
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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2012, 07:15:27 PM »

lol
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2012, 10:43:17 PM »

Reformed?
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2012, 10:50:55 PM »

Found this on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

In Judaism, Satan is a term used since its earliest biblical contexts, to refer to a human opponent.[20] Occasionally, the term has been used to suggest evil influence opposing human beings, as in the Jewish exegesis of 1 Kings 22:22. Thus, Satan is personified as a character in three different places of the Tenakh, serving as an accuser (Zechariah 3:1-2), a seducer (1 Chronicles 21:1), or as a heavenly persecutor who is "among the sons of God" (Job 2:1). In any case, Satan is always subordinate to the power of God, having a role in the divine plan. Satan is rarely mentioned in Tannaitic literature.[21]

In Enochic Judaism, the concept of Satan being an opponent of God and a chief evil figure in among demons, seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple period,[22] particularly in the apocalypses.[21] In Medieval Judaism, the Rabbis rejected these Enochic literary works into the Biblical canon, making every attempt to root them out.[22] Traditionalists and philosophers in medieval Judaism, adhered to rational theology, rejecting any belief in rebel or fallen angels, and viewing evil as abstract.[23]

In Hasidic Judaism, the Kabbalah presents Satan as an agent of God whose function is to tempt one into sin, then turn around and accuse the sinner on high.

The Chasidic Jews of the 18th century, associated ha-Satan with Baal Davar.[24]
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2012, 11:29:11 PM »

Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 01:04:32 AM »

Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.

I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 10:02:28 AM »

Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.

I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.

It has always fascinated me that in many of the big religions there is demonology. Buddhist Demons are scary bastards. I would love to read a book or see a paper comparing demonology across several religions. I suspect you will only find subtle differences which would say to me that Demons do exists in one manner or another and are not a metaphor for a general concept of evil.

As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 11:48:40 AM »


As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 02:50:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was recently told by a person who said he was Jewish, that in the case of the book of Job, for example , they do not believe it literally as Satan really exists, only as an Metaphorical example of what evils may befall someone.

He also went on to say that Christianity has invented the notion of Demons and the actual entity of Satan.

This person is a respected person of his community and has always been knowledgeable about issues of the old testament , and helpful to me in many instances in the past.

Does anyone here have experience with Jewish beliefs in the Devil , Demons , or Satan?

That is a later development by the Rabbis, initially Judaism very much believed in Demons as negative spiritual entities.  The concept of Ha-Satan being a mass representation of Evil or Negativity is indeed very Jewish, however to assert that this concept of evil is also not represented by living spiritual entities is a bit of a recent development.  Today, some Rabbis argue that Satan is merely the flip-side of the coin of free will, not a living being at all, but merely a statistical reality of free-will.  However, the earlier writings of Jewish scholars and especially Biblical commentaries agree very much with the Enochian concept of Satan being a cabal of fallen angels, having been inspired by the rebellion of a single angel who we in Christianity refer to as "the Devil" or "Satan."  It is then true that "Satan" is a concept of evil in Judaism, but I'm not sure its fair to state historically that demons and devils were not personalities as well as concepts.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 08:49:56 PM »


In Hasidic Judaism, the Kabbalah presents Satan as an agent of God whose function is to tempt one into sin, then turn around and accuse the sinner on high.


That was always my understanding of the Jewish understanding of Satan
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 09:16:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was recently told by a person who said he was Jewish, that in the case of the book of Job, for example , they do not believe it literally as Satan really exists, only as an Metaphorical example of what evils may befall someone.

He also went on to say that Christianity has invented the notion of Demons and the actual entity of Satan.

This person is a respected person of his community and has always been knowledgeable about issues of the old testament , and helpful to me in many instances in the past.

Does anyone here have experience with Jewish beliefs in the Devil , Demons , or Satan?

That is a later development by the Rabbis, initially Judaism very much believed in Demons as negative spiritual entities.  The concept of Ha-Satan being a mass representation of Evil or Negativity is indeed very Jewish, however to assert that this concept of evil is also not represented by living spiritual entities is a bit of a recent development.  Today, some Rabbis argue that Satan is merely the flip-side of the coin of free will, not a living being at all, but merely a statistical reality of free-will.  However, the earlier writings of Jewish scholars and especially Biblical commentaries agree very much with the Enochian concept of Satan being a cabal of fallen angels, having been inspired by the rebellion of a single angel who we in Christianity refer to as "the Devil" or "Satan."  It is then true that "Satan" is a concept of evil in Judaism, but I'm not sure its fair to state historically that demons and devils were not personalities as well as concepts.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

He was flatly denying that they ever believed in The Devil or demons as real beings, he insisted the Christians started the whole idea of any such real being.

I was very skeptical because the Gospels clearly say the Jews accused John The Baptist and Jesus at of being possessed by A devil and or Demon .

John 10

14“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19At these words the Jews were again divided. 20Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”

21But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

<< Luke 7:33 >>

American King James Version
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and you say, He has a devil.


Also in the Old testament in Job, Satan is first mentioned by that name. But Job is considered a book of poetry, I recently found , so it is not a Historical event like most of the Old testament .
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 09:19:00 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 10:26:27 PM »

Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.

I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.

It has always fascinated me that in many of the big religions there is demonology. Buddhist Demons are scary bastards. I would love to read a book or see a paper comparing demonology across several religions. I suspect you will only find subtle differences which would say to me that Demons do exists in one manner or another and are not a metaphor for a general concept of evil.

As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

It is weird how the demons are always generally the same, but it is the God that differs.

Kind of like "we know what is bad, but what is good???"
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 12:09:51 AM »

Hi William, That sounds like what he was saying.

I think I saw that WIKI back then when it first came up, and now I remember it helping me to understand,but it has been a few months,

However, I was hoping someone here might have read more detailed literature or have first hand experience with those teachings in Judaism
dealing with the concept of The Devil , Demons or ,Satan .

Thank you for looking that up , it was good to read that again now that I have been thinking about it.

I really don't think there's a great deal of purpose in learning Jewish demonology - at least until you have a very good understanding of Judaism in general - because it seems to be very, very, very far from the normal Jew's thoughts pretty much all the time.  Their demonology also differs a great deal from Christian demonology with a substantially different understanding of the nature of demons.

It has always fascinated me that in many of the big religions there is demonology. Buddhist Demons are scary bastards. I would love to read a book or see a paper comparing demonology across several religions. I suspect you will only find subtle differences which would say to me that Demons do exists in one manner or another and are not a metaphor for a general concept of evil.

As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

It is my understanding that sometime between 200 and 100 B.C.E., there arose in Jewish thought - in some areas (I believe, for instance, the people who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls) - that Satan was one being, and chief of the fallen angels, and it is an idea found in some of the apocalyptic Jewish literature from the time not long before Christ.  But, it certainly seems to be a fairly late idea.
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 08:11:01 PM »


As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.

You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2012, 08:13:02 PM »


As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.

You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.
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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2012, 08:46:43 PM »


As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.

You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.

That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

 I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 08:57:38 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 03:46:29 PM »

You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.

That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

 I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .
[/quote]

Are you seriously contending that loving someone includes believing (or trying to believe) that they always know what they are talking about--getting away from the charged term 'deluded' to what Punch actually said which is that the Jews who were contemporary with Christ clearly had an inferior understanding of spiritual truths, otherwise they would not have crucified the Son of God ("they know not what they do" or St. Paul's "zeal not according to knowledge"). I love my wife but that doesn't mean I assume that she, a non-native speaker, has a better grasp of English than I, a native speaker, do. And as for how I love myself, despite immense amounts of self-love and plenty of intellectual arrogance, I'm still able to grasp the fact that there are things that I am ignorant of or that I might (very occasionally) be mistaken about.
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 04:42:03 PM »

Sorry, but what you have written is BS.  More modern pseudodox rot with no intent other than to lead the faithful astray and further water down the Faith in preparation for the Antichrist.  Get thee behind me.


As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.

You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.

That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

 I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 05:33:48 PM »

We have a practicing Jew in here somewhere and you people are quoting Wikipedia. Talliot, where are you when we need you?
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2012, 07:04:44 PM »


As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.

You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

Judging Others

You can love people while seeing them as spiritually deluded.

That would not be in the spirit of what these Gospel verses teach

Is that how you love yourself ?  Lovable,but deluded?

 I know it is practically impossible but we must try a little .

No, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this one.  

Christ clearly identifies and admonishes delusion and error.  The Gospel teaches nothing of accepting whatever people may teach.

Back to topic: There seems to be a lot of support within religious studies circles (take that for what you will) that, at least initially, Jews did not view satan as an individual entity.  I can't find the link now, but a Yale University class on the Old Testament explains this perspective pretty well.
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2012, 08:16:42 PM »

Yes , your right , but we have to forgive them for the lord desires mercy above all else.

The thing about satan is that why would they accept the book of Job as scripture , then deny that satan exists?

And also I think with all the answers here have been pointing to the reality that they rewrote much of their thinking on Demons and the Devil after Christianity took hold, and in the Gospels they were accused of saying John the Baptist and Jesus were possessed by The devil or demons.
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2012, 08:29:26 AM »


As far as Judaism vs Christianity goes, I wonder when the idea of Satan being a single person and chief of the fallen angels first appeared? Was this taught in Judaism at all or is it a late day Christian idea?

Jesus seemed to have a good understanding of Satan as an individual being.  This being the case, why would we care what the Jews believe?  They obviously did not get it right or they would not have crucified their savior.  So, what would cause us to believe that they understood anything about the spiritual world.

You must love them as yourself,they are our neighbors.

Love for Enemies

27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

Am I wrong to think that the above passage is from Luke 6? I am posting as a moderator because I should not have to guess. In the future, please fully source any citations. Thanks, Second Chance
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 07:52:31 PM »

Sorry , I normally do , must have missed that .
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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 01:48:12 AM »

So in conclusion, Rabbinical Judaism which was formed after the destruction of the Temple, denies the teaching that Lucifer/Satan is a fallen Angel and do they also deny fallen angels which we call demons ?.

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2012, 02:11:37 AM »

Quote

That is a later development by the Rabbis, initially Judaism very much believed in Demons as negative spiritual entities.  The concept of Ha-Satan being a mass representation of Evil or Negativity is indeed very Jewish, however to assert that this concept of evil is also not represented by living spiritual entities is a bit of a recent development.  Today, some Rabbis argue that Satan is merely the flip-side of the coin of free will, not a living being at all, but merely a statistical reality of free-will.  However, the earlier writings of Jewish scholars and especially Biblical commentaries agree very much with the Enochian concept of Satan being a cabal of fallen angels, having been inspired by the rebellion of a single angel who we in Christianity refer to as "the Devil" or "Satan."  It is then true that "Satan" is a concept of evil in Judaism, but I'm not sure its fair to state historically that demons and devils were not personalities as well as concepts.

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The teaching of 1st century Judaism and before Christ was that the Devil and His Demons were fallen angels in Judaism ?,
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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2012, 03:17:03 AM »

One Israeli rabbinic scholar claimed to me that the idea of demons besides Satan himself is not an idea in the OT, suggesting that the idea of lesser demons is a gentile belief. However, I remember finding some places in the OT that seemed to reflect ideas of demons, like when it said an evil spirit did something bad to someone.

Pagan gods were also considered bad and sometimes translated in the KJV as demons I think.

As for Rabbinical traditions, it seems to me there was a Talmudic tradition about King Solomon using his ring, and perhaps what we call the Star of David, to control demons. I was in the process now of asking you "Does that ring a bell?", and then a Christmas bell on my table rang. I guess it does.
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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2012, 03:45:56 AM »

One Israeli rabbinic scholar claimed to me that the idea of demons besides Satan himself is not an idea in the OT, suggesting that the idea of lesser demons is a gentile belief. However, I remember finding some places in the OT that seemed to reflect ideas of demons, like when it said an evil spirit did something bad to someone.

Pagan gods were also considered bad and sometimes translated in the KJV as demons I think.

As for Rabbinical traditions, it seems to me there was a Talmudic tradition about King Solomon using his ring, and perhaps what we call the Star of David, to control demons. I was in the process now of asking you "Does that ring a bell?", and then a Christmas bell on my table rang. I guess it does.

But then the question arises: are all evil spirits and "demons" necessarily angels who sinned against God?  My understanding of rabbinic Judaism is that the answer would be no.
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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2012, 04:36:35 AM »

An example I found of an evil spirit was 1 Samuel 18:8-11. It describes an evil spirit sent by God to Saul, who then throws a spear at David. It seems like this act was not directly ordered by God, but by the bad spirit sent by Him. I am not sure this kind of spirit is different than a demon, since the tradition says a demon can also be sent out of one thing and into another by a holy person. Plus, Saul seems to be portrayed as what we might call a nasty mentally ill person nowadays, and this all seems to be the state of some people described as having "demons."

However, this spirit was sent by God, so it seems doubtful that the evil spirit was rebelling against God. Yet the demon was attacking God's anointed. So perhaps in doing so the demon was rebelling against God: In Psalm 3 David writes that many enemies rebelled against him, and the Church fathers have commented that this refers to evil forces that attack a person - not just to David's physical enemies. In that case, it's conceivable that the Old Testament hints at demonic forces that acted against God.
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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2012, 11:36:40 AM »

So in conclusion, Rabbinical Judaism which was formed after the destruction of the Temple, denies the teaching that Lucifer/Satan is a fallen Angel and do they also deny fallen angels which we call demons ?.



Rabbinical Judaism was not formed after the destruction of the Temple.The Pharisaical branch of Judaism survived in the diaspora after the destruction of the Temple for several reasons  not the least of which was their emphasis on home based worship. Their school long preceded the destruction of the Temple.

Rabbi Hillel  preceded Jesus by about 100 years. His teachings are strongly echoed in the sayings and teachings of Jesus especially emphasis on the Golden Rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder    

Hillel (הלל) (born Babylon traditionally c.110 BCE, died 10 CE[1] in Jerusalem) was a famous Jewish religious leader, one of the most important figures in Jewish history.[citation needed] He is associated with the development of the Mishnah and the Talmud. Renowned within Judaism as a sage and scholar,[citation needed] he was the founder of the House of Hillel school for Tannaïm (Sages of the Mishnah) and the founder of a dynasty of Sages who stood at the head of the Jews living in the land of Israel until roughly the fifth century of the Common Era.

He is popularly known as the author of two sayings: "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?"[2] and the expression of the ethic of reciprocity, or "Golden Rule": "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."[3]  
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2012, 12:11:46 PM »

^^ for the post guys.

Why did they stop believing in the devil and demon since there are many references in the OT and in the deuotroconical scriptures ?
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« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2012, 03:09:55 PM »

An example I found of an evil spirit was 1 Samuel 18:8-11. It describes an evil spirit sent by God to Saul, who then throws a spear at David. It seems like this act was not directly ordered by God, but by the bad spirit sent by Him. I am not sure this kind of spirit is different than a demon, since the tradition says a demon can also be sent out of one thing and into another by a holy person. Plus, Saul seems to be portrayed as what we might call a nasty mentally ill person nowadays, and this all seems to be the state of some people described as having "demons."

However, this spirit was sent by God, so it seems doubtful that the evil spirit was rebelling against God. Yet the demon was attacking God's anointed. So perhaps in doing so the demon was rebelling against God: In Psalm 3 David writes that many enemies rebelled against him, and the Church fathers have commented that this refers to evil forces that attack a person - not just to David's physical enemies. In that case, it's conceivable that the Old Testament hints at demonic forces that acted against God.

However that is not the only interpretation: this article on Maimonides' view of the hardening of Pharoah's heart, IMO, could just as easily apply to the passage from Sameul http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/did-god-harden-pharaohs-heart-alternative-view
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2012, 03:41:32 PM »

They're probably Reformed. Ancient Judaism definitely did believe in demons, there are all kinds of rules in the Babylonian Talmud involving demons. Ex. It forbids people from sleeping alone in a house because they will be seized by the Lilith demon. Also, if you have wet dreams you are giving birth to ghosts and demons.
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« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2012, 04:04:56 PM »

An example I found of an evil spirit was 1 Samuel 18:8-11. It describes an evil spirit sent by God to Saul, who then throws a spear at David. It seems like this act was not directly ordered by God, but by the bad spirit sent by Him. I am not sure this kind of spirit is different than a demon, since the tradition says a demon can also be sent out of one thing and into another by a holy person. Plus, Saul seems to be portrayed as what we might call a nasty mentally ill person nowadays, and this all seems to be the state of some people described as having "demons."

However, this spirit was sent by God, so it seems doubtful that the evil spirit was rebelling against God. Yet the demon was attacking God's anointed. So perhaps in doing so the demon was rebelling against God: In Psalm 3 David writes that many enemies rebelled against him, and the Church fathers have commented that this refers to evil forces that attack a person - not just to David's physical enemies. In that case, it's conceivable that the Old Testament hints at demonic forces that acted against God.

However that is not the only interpretation: this article on Maimonides' view of the hardening of Pharoah's heart, IMO, could just as easily apply to the passage from Sameul http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/did-god-harden-pharaohs-heart-alternative-view
Well, would that mean God was intentionally doing what is evil, albeit desiring to ultimately achieve a greater good? The way I get around this is by saying the evil spirit had the choice on whether to get Saul to throw the spear, and in throwing the spear the evil spirit was acting against God's anointed and thus against God Himself, thereby choosing to rebel. god allowed this to happen and knew it would, but did not choose how the evil spirit would act.

The evil spirit could also have "tested" Saul and Saul had the choice whether to obey the spirit or God, and the spirit did not force Saul to act. Also perhaps in that case God did not directly cause Saul's bad choice to throw the spear.
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« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2012, 04:20:57 PM »

An example I found of an evil spirit was 1 Samuel 18:8-11. It describes an evil spirit sent by God to Saul, who then throws a spear at David. It seems like this act was not directly ordered by God, but by the bad spirit sent by Him. I am not sure this kind of spirit is different than a demon, since the tradition says a demon can also be sent out of one thing and into another by a holy person. Plus, Saul seems to be portrayed as what we might call a nasty mentally ill person nowadays, and this all seems to be the state of some people described as having "demons."

However, this spirit was sent by God, so it seems doubtful that the evil spirit was rebelling against God. Yet the demon was attacking God's anointed. So perhaps in doing so the demon was rebelling against God: In Psalm 3 David writes that many enemies rebelled against him, and the Church fathers have commented that this refers to evil forces that attack a person - not just to David's physical enemies. In that case, it's conceivable that the Old Testament hints at demonic forces that acted against God.

However that is not the only interpretation: this article on Maimonides' view of the hardening of Pharoah's heart, IMO, could just as easily apply to the passage from Sameul http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/did-god-harden-pharaohs-heart-alternative-view
Well, would that mean God was intentionally doing what is evil, albeit desiring to ultimately achieve a greater good? The way I get around this is by saying the evil spirit had the choice on whether to get Saul to throw the spear, and in throwing the spear the evil spirit was acting against God's anointed and thus against God Himself, thereby choosing to rebel. god allowed this to happen and knew it would, but did not choose how the evil spirit would act.

The evil spirit could also have "tested" Saul and Saul had the choice whether to obey the spirit or God, and the spirit did not force Saul to act. Also perhaps in that case God did not directly cause Saul's bad choice to throw the spear.

Did you read all the way through the article?  Essentially what it says is that Maimonides believed that references like "God hardened Pharoah's heart" (and one could extend this to "And God sent an evil spirit to Saul") were just a way of saying "Ultimately, God caused everything because He is Creator and created the laws of nature."  Talk about an evil spirit could be, extending this line of reasoning, a metaphor for mental illness, or a bad desire, and talk of God sending it could really just mean that, because God created all things, He is ultimately responsible for the way that Saul turned out; it would not necessarily mean that an actual evil spirit existed, nor that God actually sent an evil spirit in an immediate sense.
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« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2013, 11:30:40 PM »

Have you ever witnessed a live exorcism James?
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« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2013, 11:45:15 PM »

Have you ever witnessed a live exorcism James?

Have you?  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2013, 01:32:03 AM »

I read a book detailing 5 separate well documented exorcisms.
Hostage to the Devil - The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans
by Malachi Martin

Malachi was a ordained Catholic priest before he left to write and teach.

There is one about what happened when the priest was overcome by the demon, and he has never recovered fully. Very well respected and highly readable account of the subject.
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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2013, 10:17:36 AM »

   Correct me if I'm wrong, but the New Testament itself doesn't explain the origins of evil spirits.  It just assumes they exist. people experience them.  But it doesn't necessarily imply that every evil spirit is a fallen angel or anything like that.
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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2013, 10:37:59 AM »

I read a book detailing 5 separate well documented exorcisms.
Hostage to the Devil - The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans
by Malachi Martin

Malachi was a ordained Catholic priest before he left to write and teach.

There is one about what happened when the priest was overcome by the demon, and he has never recovered fully. Very well respected and highly readable account of the subject.

I remember reading that book and being very scared worse than any scary book or horror film.
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« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2013, 10:57:43 AM »

Have you ever witnessed a live exorcism James?

Have you?  Smiley

Yes. And it is far from the drivel that James is trying to argue for.
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« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2013, 11:31:55 AM »

Have you ever witnessed a live exorcism James?

Have you?  Smiley

Yes. And it is far from the drivel that James is trying to argue for.

Do tell...
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« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2013, 07:15:52 PM »

I read a book detailing 5 separate well documented exorcisms.
Hostage to the Devil - The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans
by Malachi Martin

Malachi was a ordained Catholic priest before he left to write and teach.

There is one about what happened when the priest was overcome by the demon, and he has never recovered fully. Very well respected and highly readable account of the subject.
I remember reading that book and being very scared worse than any scary book or horror film.

Yes, I know what you mean, There are parts I can still vividly remember as scary, which rarely happens when reading fiction. Probably has to do with the fact that they were real, and there is no reason to doubt the truthfulness or sincerity , which is usually never the case.
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2013, 12:26:13 PM »

Have you ever witnessed a live exorcism James?

Have you?  Smiley

Yes. And it is far from the drivel that James is trying to argue for.

Do tell...

Would rather not actually...
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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2013, 01:34:17 PM »

That's your prerogative, but it would have been better not to bring it up. 
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« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2013, 01:45:35 PM »

I was recently told by a person who said he was Jewish, that in the case of the book of Job, for example , they do not believe it literally as Satan really exists, only as an Metaphorical example of what evils may befall someone.

He also went on to say that Christianity has invented the notion of Demons and the actual entity of Satan.

This person is a respected person of his community and has always been knowledgeable about issues of the old testament , and helpful to me in many instances in the past.

Does anyone here have experience with Jewish beliefs in the Devil , Demons , or Satan?
Regardless what your Jewish friend says, they know damn well Satan exists.

Of course the Jews that reject Jesus serve him, wittingly or not.


Christ himself declares this in the NT, not just once but twice;

"Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee.
" Rev 3:9

"I know thy tribulation and thy poverty, but thou art rich: and thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:9[/b][/b]
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