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Author Topic: Should Fr. Seraphim Rose be glorified?  (Read 7517 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: September 14, 2012, 12:15:26 PM »

This doesn't mean that saints must all think alike, quite the contrary, but there is a certain similarity in their compassion and love towards others, as well as their total lack of self love.  I did not find that in his writings.   Undecided

I doubt all the Saints were famous for their love towards others and compassion because some of them were hermits (or saloites) who lived quite solitarily.
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« Reply #181 on: September 14, 2012, 12:46:23 PM »

Quote
This doesn't mean that saints must all think alike, quite the contrary, but there is a certain similarity in their compassion and love towards others, as well as their total lack of self love.  I did not find that in his writings
Ummm, what? You cant be serious. Zenovia, please cite some references for your claims. While you're doing that, read up on St. Justinian and the whole loving others thing.

PP

Look I gave you my opinion as to how I feel about Father Serafim being glorified, and yet you people keep trying to convince me I'm wrong.  Why?  After all I do have a right to my opinion.  If I'm wrong, (which I know I'm not), then God will show it by having manifold miracles occur through the intercession of Father Seraphim.   When they do occur and God should prove me wrong, then those who have been the recipients of those miracles will be clamoring to have him glorified.  What's the rush?

As for citing references, how can I cite something when my interpretation will be different than yours.  If it was not so, then wouldn't you have reached the same conclusion as me? Huh
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« Reply #182 on: September 14, 2012, 12:56:39 PM »

The problem is that you do not present opinion here. You describe many of things we hear for a first time as customs, traditions or Tradition. Some of them clearly contradict the Tradition. That's the problem.
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« Reply #183 on: September 14, 2012, 01:05:00 PM »

Look I gave you my opinion as to how I feel about Father Serafim being glorified, and yet you people keep trying to convince me I'm wrong.  Why?  After all I do have a right to my opinion.  If I'm wrong, (which I know I'm not), then God will show it by having manifold miracles occur through the intercession of Father Seraphim.   When they do occur and God should prove me wrong, then those who have been the recipients of those miracles will be clamoring to have him glorified.  What's the rush?

Nobody is trying to convince you that you are wrong, and nobody has objected to you stating your opinion.  What I and others have objected to (as has been pointed out numerous times) is your claim to know for certain that Fr. Seraphim is definitely not a saint.  I and others have questioned the basis of this certainty, and in response you said that you have never read his biography and only read two books by him 30 yrs ago.  You never knew him personally, are completely unaware of how he is venerated throughout the world, and are unaware of how God has worked miracles in response to his intercessions.  So, without being able to provide quotes from his biography or writings that illustrate a reasonable basis for your objection, and without being able to give any adequate explanation for your absolute certainty that Fr. Seraphim is definitely not a saint, the only basis you can claim is divine revelation or such a high esteem of your own "intuition" that you regard such "intuition" as equal in authority to divine revelation.  This is not a sound approach to the subject, but an entirely delusional one.  
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« Reply #184 on: September 14, 2012, 01:07:41 PM »

Quote
Look I gave you my opinion as to how I feel about Father Serafim being glorified, and yet you people keep trying to convince me I'm wrong
Nobody is bashing you for your opinion. Nobody is trying to convince you you're wrong of your opinion. However, when you give information that is totally incorrect, you're going to be checked on it (as everyone else has had done to them at one point or another). I also happen to be of a mind that Fr. Seraphim at this present time, should not be glorified.

PP
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« Reply #185 on: September 14, 2012, 01:08:25 PM »

This doesn't mean that saints must all think alike, quite the contrary, but there is a certain similarity in their compassion and love towards others, as well as their total lack of self love.  I did not find that in his writings.   Undecided

I doubt all the Saints were famous for their love towards others and compassion because some of them were hermits (or saloites) who lived quite solitarily.

They had to be, because in order to achieve Theosis one must become like God, and God is pure Love.  From what I gathered, most  saints which have been glorified lived in two 'existences'.   It seems their purity of heart had broken  the barrier that separates the two worlds, our world and the heavenly world.    For someone to be that pure, a  person has to be completely free of 'oneself'.  I should think the natural consequence of someone who has ceased to be self absorbed, would be a love for everyone and everything. ..and the purpose of a monastic is really  to pray for the world. Smiley

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« Reply #186 on: September 14, 2012, 01:21:27 PM »

This doesn't mean that saints must all think alike, quite the contrary, but there is a certain similarity in their compassion and love towards others, as well as their total lack of self love.  I did not find that in his writings.   Undecided

Regarding Fr. Seraphim's lack of self-love, perhaps you will find these words of interest from Hieromonk Ambrose (Young) who was formerly known as Fr. Alexey. 
Quote
A year or so before his repose, I drove Fr. Seraphim someplace where he was going to give a talk. We got out of the car and, as he was walking in front of me, he turned and said, “You know, this is really not for me.” Now this is interesting because many think that he was really coming into his own, so to speak, in the last years of his life. And surely, in a sense, that’s true. But there was also a part of him that never really loved it at all, because he wanted to just be in the monastery. He did the work of missionary outreach because he knew God was calling him to it. It was his duty.

Also, he kept his eyes fixed on Christ by not paying much attention to himself. Fr. Damascene spoke about this very well in his remarks when he said that Fr. Seraphim had essentially ceased to have a private life, that he didn’t belong to himself. That was really true.

...I remember once asking Fr. Seraphim what was his favorite food, and he didn’t answer me. He didn’t even say, “I don’t have any”; he just changed the subject! Once, when he was coming to visit our home, someone had found out from Fr. Herman that there was, after all, something Fr. Seraphim liked. I don’t now recall what it was, but my wife fixed this for him—and I thought, “This will really please him.” So a place was put in front of him with what we believed was his favorite food, and he never paid any attention to it. He didn’t even seem to notice that the plate was in front of him. That was it.

So Fr. Seraphim did his duty in every single moment, and he kept his eyes fixed on Christ and on others, not on himself. And I believe that now, as a result of a life lived so unselfishly in that way, he does indeed now rest serenely and eternally in the arms of Christ, ‘Whom he spiritually beheld day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year, here on this mountain. Because of his example, we not only have a model, but we have an inspiration, and we have the encouragement to do just a little bit more than we’re doing now.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/rem_frseraphim.aspx

Do you think the above depiction of Fr. Seraphim is wrong, or that Hieromonk Ambrose made up these things?  What basis, aside from your mysterious divine revelation, do you have for claiming that Fr. Seraphim was self-centered or filled with self-love?

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« Reply #187 on: September 14, 2012, 01:22:13 PM »

Look I gave you my opinion as to how I feel about Father Serafim being glorified, and yet you people keep trying to convince me I'm wrong.  Why?  After all I do have a right to my opinion.  If I'm wrong, (which I know I'm not), then God will show it by having manifold miracles occur through the intercession of Father Seraphim.   When they do occur and God should prove me wrong, then those who have been the recipients of those miracles will be clamoring to have him glorified.  What's the rush?

Nobody is trying to convince you that you are wrong, and nobody has objected to you stating your opinion.  What I and others have objected to (as has been pointed out numerous times) is your claim to know for certain that Fr. Seraphim is definitely not a saint.  I and others have questioned the basis of this certainty, and in response you said that you have never read his biography and only read two books by him 30 yrs ago.  You never knew him personally, are completely unaware of how he is venerated throughout the world, and are unaware of how God has worked miracles in response to his intercessions.  So, without being able to provide quotes from his biography or writings that illustrate a reasonable basis for your objection, and without being able to give any adequate explanation for your absolute certainty that Fr. Seraphim is definitely not a saint, the only basis you can claim is divine revelation or such a high esteem of your own "intuition" that you regard such "intuition" as equal in authority to divine revelation.  This is not a sound approach to the subject, but an entirely delusional one.  

There you go again.  You say no one is objecting to me stating my opinion, and then you go on trying to bully me into accepting your view by saying my opinion is delusional.   You then tell me he is venerated throughout the world, and yet there is a great deal of controversy about him which only means that many people do not see things the way you do.  Of course in your mind, you find these people inconsequential or maybe delusional or who knows what?    Look, why don't you just stop pushing and insisting on him being glorified, and leave it to God and the Holy Spirit.  What are you afraid of?  If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Now how about some testimonies?   We have loads of testimonies for Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco.  Prove me wrong...or rather, let God prove me wrong.  Sad  
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« Reply #188 on: September 14, 2012, 01:29:21 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.
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« Reply #189 on: September 14, 2012, 01:32:29 PM »

Quote
Look I gave you my opinion as to how I feel about Father Serafim being glorified, and yet you people keep trying to convince me I'm wrong
Nobody is bashing you for your opinion. Nobody is trying to convince you you're wrong of your opinion. However, when you give information that is totally incorrect, you're going to be checked on it (as everyone else has had done to them at one point or another). I also happen to be of a mind that Fr. Seraphim at this present time, should not be glorified.

PP

But I didn't give information that was incorrect, I merely gave my opinion and that's the way it should have been taken.  I said Father Seraphim is not a saint, and everyone jumped on me.  If they believe he is a saint, then why do they care if I say otherwise, I'm only a human being and an inconsequential one at that.  Am I supposed to beware of saying such things because some might find them offensive?  What is so offensive on a thread about whether someone should be glorified or not,  when a poster  says they should not be...unless you people prefer a less straight forward answer.  Sorry, that's not me.
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« Reply #190 on: September 14, 2012, 01:34:59 PM »

There you go again.  You say no one is objecting to me stating my opinion, and then you go on trying to bully me into accepting your view by saying my opinion is delusional.   You then tell me he is venerated throughout the world, and yet there is a great deal of controversy about him which only means that many people do not see things the way you do.  Of course in your mind, you find these people inconsequential or maybe delusional or who knows what?    Look, why don't you just stop pushing and insisting on him being glorified, and leave it to God and the Holy Spirit.  What are you afraid of?  If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Now how about some testimonies?   We have loads of testimonies for Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco.  Prove me wrong...or rather, let God prove me wrong.  Sad  

You do not seem to understand.  I do not insist upon the bishops glorifying him, nor do I insist that you must believe that Fr. Seraphim is a saint.  I only object to your claim to know for sure that he is not a saint.  You keep judging Fr. Seraphim and the state of his soul before God yet you have given no reasonable basis for this certain knowledge of yours.  If you are interested in testimonies concerning Fr. Seraphim's intercessions, read his biography by Fr. Damascene and search around on the internet.  I have repeatedly encouraged you to learn about his life before judging his soul, but you seem only interested in proclaiming your delusional certainty.  Perhaps God has proven you wrong and will continue to prove you wrong, but you do not have eyes to see or ears to hear.
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« Reply #191 on: September 14, 2012, 01:36:55 PM »

Between this thread and the one about the "youngsters", Zenovia is making me rethink all the terrible things I've thought about her as I scrolled past her many posts.

More to come.
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« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2012, 02:01:19 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

 Michael, tell Mount Athos that miracles are not a perquisite for glorifycation.  We're not Protestants.  The veneration of saints comes from the people that need the intercession of the saint.  What you said is nothing but Protestant foolishness.  The Protestants rebelled against the RCC, and then tossed out the very things that made Europe Christian. 

Do you think an evil pagan world could have ever become Christian had it not been for the saints, and the miracles God had given them?   I once read  that the miracles performed by Christ's disciples alone, were almost as many as His own.   Smiley     
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« Reply #193 on: September 14, 2012, 02:25:43 PM »

This doesn't mean that saints must all think alike, quite the contrary, but there is a certain similarity in their compassion and love towards others, as well as their total lack of self love.  I did not find that in his writings.   Undecided

Regarding Fr. Seraphim's lack of self-love, perhaps you will find these words of interest from Hieromonk Ambrose (Young) who was formerly known as Fr. Alexey. 
Quote
A year or so before his repose, I drove Fr. Seraphim someplace where he was going to give a talk. We got out of the car and, as he was walking in front of me, he turned and said, “You know, this is really not for me.” Now this is interesting because many think that he was really coming into his own, so to speak, in the last years of his life. And surely, in a sense, that’s true. But there was also a part of him that never really loved it at all, because he wanted to just be in the monastery. He did the work of missionary outreach because he knew God was calling him to it. It was his duty.

Also, he kept his eyes fixed on Christ by not paying much attention to himself. Fr. Damascene spoke about this very well in his remarks when he said that Fr. Seraphim had essentially ceased to have a private life, that he didn’t belong to himself. That was really true.

...I remember once asking Fr. Seraphim what was his favorite food, and he didn’t answer me. He didn’t even say, “I don’t have any”; he just changed the subject! Once, when he was coming to visit our home, someone had found out from Fr. Herman that there was, after all, something Fr. Seraphim liked. I don’t now recall what it was, but my wife fixed this for him—and I thought, “This will really please him.” So a place was put in front of him with what we believed was his favorite food, and he never paid any attention to it. He didn’t even seem to notice that the plate was in front of him. That was it.

So Fr. Seraphim did his duty in every single moment, and he kept his eyes fixed on Christ and on others, not on himself. And I believe that now, as a result of a life lived so unselfishly in that way, he does indeed now rest serenely and eternally in the arms of Christ, ‘Whom he spiritually beheld day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year, here on this mountain. Because of his example, we not only have a model, but we have an inspiration, and we have the encouragement to do just a little bit more than we’re doing now.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/rem_frseraphim.aspx

Do you think the above depiction of Fr. Seraphim is wrong, or that Hieromonk Ambrose made up these things?  What basis, aside from your mysterious divine revelation, do you have for claiming that Fr. Seraphim was self-centered or filled with self-love?



I never said he was self centered or filled with self love.  Those are your words not mine.  I  believe he wasn't completely free of self love...big difference?  As for what you posted, it only reaffirms my belief that you people have created a personality cult.  I have found nothing more in Father Seraphims sacrifices, then the sacrifice that is expected of every monk.  The only difference then has to be his personality.

I think you all better read some biographies on saints in order to know what true sacrifice and heroic virtue is, such as Chondropoulos' book on Saint Nektarios:  A Saint of Our Era (Century) or read about about Saint John Kronstadt who never slept and gave up everything and ended up almost being beaten to death, or Father Arseny, who spent thirty years in the Gulag and was kept alive by a criminal whose life he has saved.  Read up on the life of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, and how he walked in snow barefoot, or Saint Xenia who for thirty years roamed the poorest section of Saint Petersburg without socks, and prayed morning until night for the soul of her husband.

Look, I don't want to continue this, because I'm being forced to denigrate Father Seraphim when that is not my intent.  I only want you people to try to differentiate between his sacrifices and the sacrifices of our glorified saints.   Angry
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« Reply #194 on: September 14, 2012, 02:37:15 PM »

Like I said, nobody is attacking anyone for you having an opinion. Im simply stating that if you state something factually incorrect (like if you said St. John of Damascus was a was a Russian) you're going to get corrected on that. Now if that makes you want to throw yourself on the cross, then so be it.

PP

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« Reply #195 on: September 14, 2012, 02:40:39 PM »

This doesn't mean that saints must all think alike, quite the contrary, but there is a certain similarity in their compassion and love towards others, as well as their total lack of self love.  I did not find that in his writings.   Undecided

Regarding Fr. Seraphim's lack of self-love, perhaps you will find these words of interest from Hieromonk Ambrose (Young) who was formerly known as Fr. Alexey. 
Quote
A year or so before his repose, I drove Fr. Seraphim someplace where he was going to give a talk. We got out of the car and, as he was walking in front of me, he turned and said, “You know, this is really not for me.” Now this is interesting because many think that he was really coming into his own, so to speak, in the last years of his life. And surely, in a sense, that’s true. But there was also a part of him that never really loved it at all, because he wanted to just be in the monastery. He did the work of missionary outreach because he knew God was calling him to it. It was his duty.

Also, he kept his eyes fixed on Christ by not paying much attention to himself. Fr. Damascene spoke about this very well in his remarks when he said that Fr. Seraphim had essentially ceased to have a private life, that he didn’t belong to himself. That was really true.

...I remember once asking Fr. Seraphim what was his favorite food, and he didn’t answer me. He didn’t even say, “I don’t have any”; he just changed the subject! Once, when he was coming to visit our home, someone had found out from Fr. Herman that there was, after all, something Fr. Seraphim liked. I don’t now recall what it was, but my wife fixed this for him—and I thought, “This will really please him.” So a place was put in front of him with what we believed was his favorite food, and he never paid any attention to it. He didn’t even seem to notice that the plate was in front of him. That was it.

So Fr. Seraphim did his duty in every single moment, and he kept his eyes fixed on Christ and on others, not on himself. And I believe that now, as a result of a life lived so unselfishly in that way, he does indeed now rest serenely and eternally in the arms of Christ, ‘Whom he spiritually beheld day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year, here on this mountain. Because of his example, we not only have a model, but we have an inspiration, and we have the encouragement to do just a little bit more than we’re doing now.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/rem_frseraphim.aspx

Do you think the above depiction of Fr. Seraphim is wrong, or that Hieromonk Ambrose made up these things?  What basis, aside from your mysterious divine revelation, do you have for claiming that Fr. Seraphim was self-centered or filled with self-love?



I never said he was self centered or filled with self love.  Those are your words not mine.  I  believe he wasn't completely free of self love...big difference?  As for what you posted, it only reaffirms my belief that you people have created a personality cult.  I have found nothing more in Father Seraphims sacrifices, then the sacrifice that is expected of every monk.  The only difference then has to be his personality.

I think you all better read some biographies on saints in order to know what true sacrifice and heroic virtue is, such as Chondropoulos' book on Saint Nektarios:  A Saint of Our Era (Century) or read about about Saint John Kronstadt who never slept and gave up everything and ended up almost being beaten to death, or Father Arseny, who spent thirty years in the Gulag and was kept alive by a criminal whose life he has saved.  Read up on the life of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, and how he walked in snow barefoot, or Saint Xenia who for thirty years roamed the poorest section of Saint Petersburg without socks, and prayed morning until night for the soul of her husband.

Look, I don't want to continue this, because I'm being forced to denigrate Father Seraphim when that is not my intent.  I only want you people to try to differentiate between his sacrifices and the sacrifices of our glorified saints.   Angry

I bolded that part since it seems to capture the objection to Fr Seraphim's sainthood I've heard elsewhere. He did what a good monk should do, and there is no reason to think that his soul wasn't saved or that he can't hear the prayers of the faithful (you don't need to be officially glorified for that). But the kinds of saints universally observed by the Church went above and beyond merely what is expected of a good monk (which, by the way, is still a lot more than what most of us observe nowadays, I'm sure).

Fr Damascene obviously talks about Fr Seraphim as if he were a saint, but maybe we should focus on the details. As Zenovia said, what are concrete examples of Fr Seraphim's life that demonstrate his sainthood? E.g. did he work miracles of healing or clairvoyance? Did he accomplish feats of asceticism, like going without food or sleep for days on end? If he didn't, that doesn't make him a bad monk; it simply places him on a different level of virtue that we shouldn't confuse with the level found in the universally glorified saints. The issue shouldn't be Fr Seraphim himself, but rather our own tendency to "lower the bar" of sanctity, which would be an offense to those saints who actually surpassed the bar.

Perhaps our urge to venerate Fr Seraphim, or other "holy elders" we hear so much of nowadays (at least in some circles), is more of a reflection of our general loss of sanctity. We want a "saint" whose life seems a little closer to ours, a little more within our reach.
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« Reply #196 on: September 14, 2012, 02:48:28 PM »

For this part of what Zenovia said,
Quote
what are concrete examples of Fr Seraphim's life that demonstrate his sainthood?
I totally agree with that.

I just dont think Fr. Seraphim is very influential outside of the hyper-excited new convert. Which even though I am recently illumined, I never got into his works much. It just seemed a bit too much for me to swallow.

PP
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« Reply #197 on: September 14, 2012, 03:00:08 PM »

For this part of what Zenovia said,
Quote
what are concrete examples of Fr Seraphim's life that demonstrate his sainthood?
I totally agree with that.

I just dont think Fr. Seraphim is very influential outside of the hyper-excited new convert. Which even though I am recently illumined, I never got into his works much. It just seemed a bit too much for me to swallow.

PP

I don't know about that. What I do know is that "hero-worshipping" is very common, especially among the conservative elements in Orthodoxy (and here I'm talking about both the True Orthodox and World Orthodox). It's as if merely following traditional Orthodox praxis to the best of one's ability, and holding fast to Orthodoxy without compromise, are not enough. We need some kind of "guru" to be our "guide", who will tell us everything to do because he has some direct hotline to God, with the result that we don't need to be responsible for our own salvation. At least, that is part of what I think is going on psychologically among all these personality cultists, including the Fr Seraphim cultists.

Also, the idea that general sanctity is so low that real sainthood and real clairvoyance are gone is perhaps too terrible for some to contemplate. We fantasize about what it was like in pre-revolutionary Russia, or on Mount Athos back when it really was a bastion of Orthodoxy, and we simply can't accept that those days are gone, since if that were true, then perhaps the last days really are upon us. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case; maybe there will be a real revival and return to higher spiritual standards.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that Fr Seraphim's life is perhaps the best that can be done in our age, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that this is all there is to it.
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« Reply #198 on: September 14, 2012, 03:27:08 PM »

Michael, tell Mount Athos that miracles are not a perquisite for glorifycation. 

They already know that.

Quote
We're not Protestants.  The veneration of saints comes from the people that need the intercession of the saint.  What you said is nothing but Protestant foolishness.  The Protestants rebelled against the RCC, and then tossed out the very things that made Europe Christian. 

Do you think an evil pagan world could have ever become Christian had it not been for the saints, and the miracles God had given them?   I once read  that the miracles performed by Christ's disciples alone, were almost as many as His own.   Smiley     

There are hundreds of Saints that are not known because of their miracles. What miracles did St. Joseph do? Or St. Tikhon? St. Raphael? St. Peter the Aleut?
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« Reply #199 on: September 14, 2012, 05:47:21 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

 Michael, tell Mount Athos that miracles are not a perquisite for glorifycation.
Have you ever been to Mount Athos?
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« Reply #200 on: September 14, 2012, 05:51:49 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

 Michael, tell Mount Athos that miracles are not a perquisite for glorifycation.
Have you ever been to Mount Athos?

I enjoyed the joke.
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« Reply #201 on: September 14, 2012, 09:47:26 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

 Michael, tell Mount Athos that miracles are not a perquisite for glorifycation.
Have you ever been to Mount Athos?

Let God's will be done and don't worry about it guys.

Now, just a quick comment about Athos.
Save your money up
and GO.

If it means the next time you buy a car - leave off some features.... Save any way you can and do it at least ONCE. 

There a few places in this world where it literally feels that you walk in heaven (natural beauty) and you also feel a closeness to God and at the same time utter repentance.  There are things you'll see there that take your breath away (rooms of relics) and also very neat "crafts" such as reducing oils for incense, iconography, looming of threads, and gardens.   Plus the architecture is amazing.

Try to stay 2 weeks at least.
Some of the monks speak fluent English.

Bring some extra money for donations.  Try to donate at each monastery you visit.

I'd love to go back before I croak one day.
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« Reply #202 on: September 15, 2012, 03:21:16 AM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

 Michael, tell Mount Athos that miracles are not a perquisite for glorifycation.
Have you ever been to Mount Athos?

Let God's will be done and don't worry about it guys.
You don't get the joke, do you?
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« Reply #203 on: September 15, 2012, 08:51:35 AM »

Jonathan's answer is really to the point.

On a similar line of thought, I vividly remember being at a youth retreat as a child at our diocesan cathedral. The priest was explaining the icons which displayed depictions of maybe one or two hundred saints throughout the church building. A little boy asked the priest - 'Father - do the pictures on the wall  have the whole 'set' of saints?' (He was of course referring to sports trading card sets - popular with boys in the United States.) The priest smiled and gave a great answer which stuck with me over all of these years. He said something like,' No, of course not. God knows all of the saints, we on earth can only figure out a very few of them!' 
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« Reply #204 on: September 15, 2012, 06:26:06 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink

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« Reply #205 on: September 15, 2012, 06:41:02 PM »

....and there are Saints whose bodies were never found having been destroyed by enemies of the faith.  Enough of the legalism and the judgmentalism here. And the concept that a saint must not have lived a life where he or she was kindly, beloved and revered while alive is just preposterous.
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« Reply #206 on: September 15, 2012, 11:46:05 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink
Prove it! And by citing authorities outside yourself.
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« Reply #207 on: September 16, 2012, 01:12:19 AM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink



You are calling Fr. Seraphim Rose...Evil?
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« Reply #208 on: September 16, 2012, 01:14:14 AM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked.  

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink



You are calling Fr. Seraphim Rose...Evil?
I don't think she's going that far.
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« Reply #209 on: September 16, 2012, 01:21:20 AM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked.  

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink



You are calling Fr. Seraphim Rose...Evil?
I don't think she's going that far.

Guess I misunderstood. Huh
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« Reply #210 on: September 16, 2012, 11:32:50 AM »

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated. 

Well, no, they didn't. St. Raphael? St. Alexius Toth?
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« Reply #211 on: September 16, 2012, 02:16:21 PM »

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated. 

Well, no, they didn't. St. Raphael? St. Alexius Toth?

St. Alexius did suffer greatly from attacks from the Romans and those Greek Catholics who did not follow him to Russian Orthodoxy. He was also anguished throughout his life from various events including the premature death of his wife and child, his shocking encounter with Archbishop Ireland and his abandonment by the Greek Catholic hierarchy in Europe, his expulsion from St. Mary's in Minneapolis by his fellow countrymen who wanted a more 'Russian' priest and by the rapid Rusification of his people upon entering Orthodoxy in the first years of the 20th century in spite of promises made to the contrary. Yet he died at peace, at man at the crossroads of a new era and caught between the secular forces of the east and west, all the while remaining faithful to the Orthodox Church and his own conscience. I doubt he harbored any thoughts that someday his memory would be such that he would be glorified as an American Saint. (I also think he too would have had to look up the word 'calumniated'. )
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« Reply #212 on: September 16, 2012, 06:38:10 PM »

i dont think there's any point in going any further with Zenovia on this ...
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« Reply #213 on: September 16, 2012, 09:36:21 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink
Prove it! And by citing authorities outside yourself.

Michael, I can't give you an authority for everything I said, because I have a long term memory and the knowlege I stated has been gathered  over the years.  What I'm saying did not come from one source, but rather from many sources.  If you want to find out about a saints body remaining intact after three years, and then after another certain amount of years, then best to ask a monk, preferably one from the Elder Ephraims monasteries.  As for warlocks, then read up on Saint Cyprian.   Smiley

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« Reply #214 on: September 16, 2012, 09:44:09 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink



You are calling Fr. Seraphim Rose...Evil?

What does Fr. Seraphim Rose have to do with what I wrote?  I was stating the canonization process of the Orthodox Church, not the newly innovative Orthodox Church.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #215 on: September 16, 2012, 09:44:58 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink
Prove it! And by citing authorities outside yourself.

Michael, I can't give you an authority for everything I said, because I have a long term memory and the knowlege I stated has been gathered  over the years.  What I'm saying did not come from one source, but rather from many sources.  If you want to find out about a saints body remaining intact after three years, and then after another certain amount of years, then best to ask a monk, preferably one from the Elder Ephraims monasteries.  As for warlocks, then read up on Saint Cyprian.   Smiley


1. I'm not Michael, or Michal, or anyone bearing any variant of that name on this forum.
2. If you will not share with us those authorities who shared with you the "special knowledge" you cite on this thread, then I can only draw the conclusion that you're making this stuff up, which means you're lying to us. If you don't want this to be believed about you, then share with us your sources.
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« Reply #216 on: September 16, 2012, 09:47:03 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink



You are calling Fr. Seraphim Rose...Evil?

What does Fr. Seraphim Rose have to do with what I wrote?  I was stating the canonization process of the Orthodox Church, not the newly innovative Orthodox Church.  Roll Eyes

PtA corrected me, I misunderstood. I said that earlier...read up:

Guess I misunderstood. Huh
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« Reply #217 on: September 16, 2012, 10:17:47 PM »

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated. 

Well, no, they didn't. St. Raphael? St. Alexius Toth?

St. Alexius did suffer greatly from attacks from the Romans and those Greek Catholics who did not follow him to Russian Orthodoxy. He was also anguished throughout his life from various events including the premature death of his wife and child, his shocking encounter with Archbishop Ireland and his abandonment by the Greek Catholic hierarchy in Europe, his expulsion from St. Mary's in Minneapolis by his fellow countrymen who wanted a more 'Russian' priest and by the rapid Rusification of his people upon entering Orthodoxy in the first years of the 20th century in spite of promises made to the contrary. Yet he died at peace, at man at the crossroads of a new era and caught between the secular forces of the east and west, all the while remaining faithful to the Orthodox Church and his own conscience. I doubt he harbored any thoughts that someday his memory would be such that he would be glorified as an American Saint. (I also think he too would have had to look up the word 'calumniated'. )

I just read about his life in Wikipedea, and that he was canonized by the OCA.  Is he also a saint in the other jurisdictions, and what  process did they use for his canonization?  Has there ever been an apology from any Pope for Arch, Ireland's narrow minded intolerance? I know when I was young, my Catholic friends believed than anyone outside of the RCC could not be saved.  The Orthodox priests at that time, preferred the Orthodox to attend a Protestant Church if an Orthodox one was not available, for fear of being pressured to convert.

 Later on I read that it was never a doctrine of the RCC that a person's soul was lost if they weren't a member of their Church, and that the bishop who had interpreted it that way had been excommunicated.  I'm not too certain about all this, so I might be wrong, but I do know that the RCC was fearful of Protestanism, especially in the U.S., and because of that they put a great deal of pressure on the family of anyone who converted.  Undecided
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« Reply #218 on: September 16, 2012, 10:22:19 PM »

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated. 

Well, no, they didn't. St. Raphael? St. Alexius Toth?

St. Alexius did suffer greatly from attacks from the Romans and those Greek Catholics who did not follow him to Russian Orthodoxy. He was also anguished throughout his life from various events including the premature death of his wife and child, his shocking encounter with Archbishop Ireland and his abandonment by the Greek Catholic hierarchy in Europe, his expulsion from St. Mary's in Minneapolis by his fellow countrymen who wanted a more 'Russian' priest and by the rapid Rusification of his people upon entering Orthodoxy in the first years of the 20th century in spite of promises made to the contrary. Yet he died at peace, at man at the crossroads of a new era and caught between the secular forces of the east and west, all the while remaining faithful to the Orthodox Church and his own conscience. I doubt he harbored any thoughts that someday his memory would be such that he would be glorified as an American Saint. (I also think he too would have had to look up the word 'calumniated'. )

I just read about his life in Wikipedea, and that he was canonized by the OCA.  Is he also a saint in the other jurisdictions, and what  process did they use for his canonization?  Has there ever been an apology from any Pope for Arch, Ireland's narrow minded intolerance? I know when I was young, my Catholic friends believed than anyone outside of the RCC could not be saved.  The Orthodox priests at that time, preferred the Orthodox to attend a Protestant Church if an Orthodox one was not available, for fear of being pressured to convert.

 Later on I read that it was never a doctrine of the RCC that a person's soul was lost if they weren't a member of their Church, and that the bishop who had interpreted it that way had been excommunicated.  I'm not too certain about all this, so I might be wrong, but I do know that the RCC was fearful of Protestanism, especially in the U.S., and because of that they put a great deal of pressure on the family of anyone who converted.  Undecided
I'm not sure that had anything to do with Archbishop Ireland's intolerance. IIRC, the archbishop was a Latinophile who saw no place for St. Alexis's Byzantine Rite and their married priesthood in the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #219 on: September 16, 2012, 10:51:41 PM »

Quote
and that he was canonized by the OCA.

Where is your evidence for this, Zenovia?
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« Reply #220 on: September 16, 2012, 10:54:25 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.


Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked. 

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink
Prove it! And by citing authorities outside yourself.

Michael, I can't give you an authority for everything I said, because I have a long term memory and the knowlege I stated has been gathered  over the years.  What I'm saying did not come from one source, but rather from many sources.  If you want to find out about a saints body remaining intact after three years, and then after another certain amount of years, then best to ask a monk, preferably one from the Elder Ephraims monasteries.  As for warlocks, then read up on Saint Cyprian.   Smiley


1. I'm not Michael, or Michal, or anyone bearing any variant of that name on this forum.
2. If you will not share with us those authorities who shared with you the "special knowledge" you cite on this thread, then I can only draw the conclusion that you're making this stuff up, which means you're lying to us. If you don't want this to be believed about you, then share with us your sources.

Obviously you not that knowlegeable in the Orthodox faith, or you wouldn't be questioning what I'm saying, but since you are, here are some links.  You do know you could have found them yourself, all you had to do was google in a few things:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"...In the Orthodox Church, incorruptibility continues to be an important element in the process of canonization (q.v.). An important distinction is made between natural mummification and supernatural incorruptibility. In The Brothers Karamazov, a novel by Dostoyevsky, the body of the newly-deceased Starets (holy monk) Zossima began to decay noticeably even during his funeral wake, which caused a great scandal in his monastery and among the townsfolk, who fully expected that he would be incorrupt..."

http://www.google.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fbigthink.com%2Fideas%2Fphenomenon-incorruptible-bodies-proof-of-god%3Fpage%3Dall&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



"...There is a miracle of incorruptable holy relics (Incorruptable Bodies) of many of our Orthodox Saints in the Orthodox Church. Little or none is actually known in the non-orthodox christian realm about this great miracle proof of the truthfulness of our faith. The incorruptability of saints has been a phenomena longly known to exist, some of the incorruptable bodies of saints are still preserved already for more than 10 centuries.  The phenomenon of incorruptable bodies is a sure sign for saintship in the Church. There are dozens of orthodox christian saints whose bodies are still intact...."

http://www.pc-freak.net/blog/orthodox-christian-saints-incorruptable-bodies-a-miracle-proof-of-the-truthfulness-of-christianity/

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« Reply #221 on: September 16, 2012, 11:03:25 PM »

Quote
and that he was canonized by the OCA.

Where is your evidence for this, Zenovia?

I guess you're all not that  bright, so here, let me teach you how to find things.  If you go on to google, and then put in the name; Saint Alexis Toth, his biography will then come up.  If you scroll down a bit, you will find out he was canonized. See, now that's not hard is it?  Roll Eyes

Death and canonization
 
Toth was elevated to the rank of Protopresbyter later in life, continuing his efforts to convert the Eastern Catholics of North America to Eastern Orthodoxy. He died on May 7, 1909, and was honored with a special shrine at St. Tikhon's Monastery in South Canaan, Pennsylvania. On May 29, 1994, Toth was glorified (canonized) as St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre by the Orthodox Church in America, whose establishment and membership numbers are largely traceable to his efforts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Toth
For using an ad hominem ("I guess you're all not that  bright") you are put on post-moderation for 14 days. Please PM me if you object to this action. Second Chance
[/b]
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 03:41:53 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged
Zenovia
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« Reply #222 on: September 16, 2012, 11:06:18 PM »

Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated. 

Well, no, they didn't. St. Raphael? St. Alexius Toth?

St. Alexius did suffer greatly from attacks from the Romans and those Greek Catholics who did not follow him to Russian Orthodoxy. He was also anguished throughout his life from various events including the premature death of his wife and child, his shocking encounter with Archbishop Ireland and his abandonment by the Greek Catholic hierarchy in Europe, his expulsion from St. Mary's in Minneapolis by his fellow countrymen who wanted a more 'Russian' priest and by the rapid Rusification of his people upon entering Orthodoxy in the first years of the 20th century in spite of promises made to the contrary. Yet he died at peace, at man at the crossroads of a new era and caught between the secular forces of the east and west, all the while remaining faithful to the Orthodox Church and his own conscience. I doubt he harbored any thoughts that someday his memory would be such that he would be glorified as an American Saint. (I also think he too would have had to look up the word 'calumniated'. )

I just read about his life in Wikipedea, and that he was canonized by the OCA.  Is he also a saint in the other jurisdictions, and what  process did they use for his canonization?  Has there ever been an apology from any Pope for Arch, Ireland's narrow minded intolerance? I know when I was young, my Catholic friends believed than anyone outside of the RCC could not be saved.  The Orthodox priests at that time, preferred the Orthodox to attend a Protestant Church if an Orthodox one was not available, for fear of being pressured to convert.

 Later on I read that it was never a doctrine of the RCC that a person's soul was lost if they weren't a member of their Church, and that the bishop who had interpreted it that way had been excommunicated.  I'm not too certain about all this, so I might be wrong, but I do know that the RCC was fearful of Protestanism, especially in the U.S., and because of that they put a great deal of pressure on the family of anyone who converted.  Undecided
I'm not sure that had anything to do with Archbishop Ireland's intolerance. IIRC, the archbishop was a Latinophile who saw no place for St. Alexis's Byzantine Rite and their married priesthood in the Catholic Church.

Uhhh!  Being a Latinphile does mean an intolerance of anything that is not Latin, including married priesthood.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #223 on: September 16, 2012, 11:10:28 PM »

Quote
and that he was canonized by the OCA.

Where is your evidence for this, Zenovia?

I guess you're all not that  bright, so here, let me teach you how to find things.  If you go on to google, and then put in the name; Saint Alexis Toth, his biography will then come up.  If you scroll down a bit, you will find out he was canonized. See, now that's not hard is it?  Roll Eyes

Death and canonization
 
Toth was elevated to the rank of Protopresbyter later in life, continuing his efforts to convert the Eastern Catholics of North America to Eastern Orthodoxy. He died on May 7, 1909, and was honored with a special shrine at St. Tikhon's Monastery in South Canaan, Pennsylvania. On May 29, 1994, Toth was glorified (canonized) as St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre by the Orthodox Church in America, whose establishment and membership numbers are largely traceable to his efforts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Toth


No need to be snarky, Zenovia. In all the confusion of tangents on this thread, I misunderstood your post as saying Fr Seraphim had been canonized by the OCA.
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« Reply #224 on: September 16, 2012, 11:17:19 PM »

If God feels that Father Seraphim has achieved the spiritual heights of a glorified saint, then God will prove it through the miraculous cures he will give through his intercession.

Miracles are not always the sign of Sainthood. Lack of miracles is not always a sign of lack of Sainthood. We are not Roman Catholics. The most important thing for glorification is veneration among the faithful.


Michael I'm going to go into this deeply.  If you had read biographies of recent saints, you will find that all saints are calumniated.  They are hated by the most destructive and harmful individuals because of their lack of willingness to lower their integrity.  The reason God allows these scandals to occur, is so He can lessen their pride since humility is an intricate  part of holyness.   By the same token there are  priests and monks who will tell people exactly what they want to hear.  These people in contrast to saints are very well liked.  

As an example, just recently the Bishop of Limassol of the Makrides' book fame, and who many consider to be a saint was running for the position of Arch. of Cyprus.  Someone lied about him for political reasons, and said he was seen going with some women to a nude beach.  The judge, knowing that the Bishop of Limassol couldn't drive, asked the accuser if he was the one driving the car.  When the accuser said yes, the case was dropped.  This is not an isolated case.  As I said almost all saints have been calumniated, and many a priest and monk who were anything but holy, had quite a large following and have been considered saints.

Because of this, the Church depends completely on God.  The miracles performed when they are alive can't be accepted because witches and warlocks do exist, and they too can cure, so the Church waits until the death of a saint.  The body is dug up after three years and if it is not corrupt they rebury it and dig it up again after a few years.  The first time is not enough, because bodies of evil individuals have been known to remain uncorrupted as well.  Satan is very powerful  The most importent thing for someone to be glorified are the miracles that occur through the saints intercession.   Anyway it's a long process. Wink
Prove it! And by citing authorities outside yourself.

Michael, I can't give you an authority for everything I said, because I have a long term memory and the knowlege I stated has been gathered  over the years.  What I'm saying did not come from one source, but rather from many sources.  If you want to find out about a saints body remaining intact after three years, and then after another certain amount of years, then best to ask a monk, preferably one from the Elder Ephraims monasteries.  As for warlocks, then read up on Saint Cyprian.   Smiley


1. I'm not Michael, or Michal, or anyone bearing any variant of that name on this forum.
2. If you will not share with us those authorities who shared with you the "special knowledge" you cite on this thread, then I can only draw the conclusion that you're making this stuff up, which means you're lying to us. If you don't want this to be believed about you, then share with us your sources.

Obviously you not that knowlegeable in the Orthodox faith, or you wouldn't be questioning what I'm saying, but since you are, here are some links.
Thank you for the ad hominem attack, Zenovia. When shown devoid of any real authority, you try to divert attention away from yourself by denigrating the knowledge of your questioner.

You do know you could have found them yourself, all you had to do was google in a few things:
Not my job to prove your arguments. You made the arguments, so it's up to you to put up or shut up. (It's that nasty little logic rule called burden of proof.) I'm not doing your job for you.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"...In the Orthodox Church, incorruptibility continues to be an important element in the process of canonization (q.v.). An important distinction is made between natural mummification and supernatural incorruptibility. In The Brothers Karamazov, a novel by Dostoyevsky, the body of the newly-deceased Starets (holy monk) Zossima began to decay noticeably even during his funeral wake, which caused a great scandal in his monastery and among the townsfolk, who fully expected that he would be incorrupt..."

http://www.google.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fbigthink.com%2Fideas%2Fphenomenon-incorruptible-bodies-proof-of-god%3Fpage%3Dall&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=
A list of Google links. That's not a source. That's just an attempt to make me do your dirty work for you.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



"...There is a miracle of incorruptable holy relics (Incorruptable Bodies) of many of our Orthodox Saints in the Orthodox Church. Little or none is actually known in the non-orthodox christian realm about this great miracle proof of the truthfulness of our faith. The incorruptability of saints has been a phenomena longly known to exist, some of the incorruptable bodies of saints are still preserved already for more than 10 centuries.  The phenomenon of incorruptable bodies is a sure sign for saintship in the Church. There are dozens of orthodox christian saints whose bodies are still intact...."

http://www.pc-freak.net/blog/orthodox-christian-saints-incorruptable-bodies-a-miracle-proof-of-the-truthfulness-of-christianity/


A blog page is not a credible source, either.
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