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Author Topic: Should Fr. Seraphim Rose be glorified?  (Read 8543 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2012, 10:10:17 PM »

God knows. Maybe He will tell us.

God tells us if a person's a saint, by the miracles which occur through their intercession.  When Saint Nektarios died, there was an overpowering scent of roses in the room, and when his robe was placed on a crippled man's cot next to him, the man got up and walked.  There are so many miracles through the intercession of Saint Paissios that people are clamoring for him to be declared a saint.  Have there been any miracles through the intercession of Father Seraphim Rose?  I think not!

Now why am I so certain that Fr Seraphim Rose is not a saint?  Well forgetting the toll houses, which can be allegorical, I'm bothered by his condemning of a certain group of people, rather than just condemning the ideals and values they follow.  By condemning them, he was arousing hatred towards them.  Any form of passion such as hatred is a sin, so basically he was encouraging them to sin.   If you read any writings by saints, you will note that everything they say and write is edifying to a person's soul.   How can Father Seraphim be a saint when he was doing the opposite?   Huh   
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« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2012, 10:13:56 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

I agree. some of Fr. Seraphim's teachings which remain of record are far too controversial to merit his "recognition" as a saint, the "toll houses" teaching which is outside the consensus of Orthodox Church teaching, is a leading reason that would preclude his "glorification."
Have you considered, then, de-glorifying St. Augustine of Hippo for the same reasons? (It seems that many already have.)

I'm not a big fan of the Blessed Augustine either, who was an early proponent of the false teaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and and the Son, contrary to scripture.

You do know that our Bulwark of Orthodoxy, Saint Gregory Palamas also said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son but in different says.  Wink
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« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2012, 11:08:24 PM »

There are other threads on this subject, such as this one:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39719.0.html

Regarding the OP, Fr. Seraphim's comments regarding apostasy were mostly correct, though the situation was much more dire in his time than is the case at the present.  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's criticism of other jurisdictions and his respect of the Old Calendarists, St. Nikolai of Zica refused to pray with the fathers of Vatopedi Monastery on Mt. Athos when the monastery adopted the New Calendar for a time, and he provided chrism to the Old Calendarists in Greece who refused to accept the New Calendar despite the decision of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece (this was before Old Calendarists developed into a competing Synod in Greece with its own bishops).  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's views of the Old Calendarists, if you read his Life, and particularly the book "Letters from Fr. Seraphim", you will see that he became increasingly critical of these groups as he beccame more experienced with the bitter fruits of their fanaticism and sectarianism.

If you have not read his "Life", including the final chapters regarding his blessed repose, his appearances after his repose, the accounts of those who have been healed through his intercessions; if you have not acquainted yourself with the veneration that Fr. Seraphim receives throughout the Orthodox world (Greece, Russia, Serbia,etc.); then it would be of benefit to familiarize yourself before trusting too much in your present opinion on this subject.


What you said again is problematic, since monks are prohibited through humility to talk and write about themselves, so why would he be saying anything about himself unless it was to witness for Christ because of some great miracle that happened to him?  Also why was he so involved with Church politics?   Something just doesn't sit right with me. 

Also you mentioned he is revered in Greece.  I doubt it.  Do you have any idea how many future saints they have had in the past decades, such as the Elder Ephraim who established the monasteries in this country.  There is the Elder Paissios who people are clamoring to have him declared a saint because of the many miracles through his intercession.  There is also his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios, who was able to see through mountains.  He called this charism of his the ability of clear sight. 

Another future saint is the Elder Emilianos, who is still alive and who the Elder Paissios said has the purest soul of them all.  He was given the gift of bi-location, and could be in two places at the same time.  In addition to these well known future saints, there are countless others throughout Greece.  One such was Crazy John, a lay person who had devoted his whole life to doing charitable acts in secret...He also had other charisms such as being able to foresee events.  He used it to save the area he lived in from a devastating flood. 

Anyway I could go on and on, and somehow I just can't see Father Seraphim as having the pure soul and humility that's a perquisite for a saint.  Huh

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« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2012, 11:43:37 PM »

God knows. Maybe He will tell us.

God tells us if a person's a saint, by the miracles which occur through their intercession.  When Saint Nektarios died, there was an overpowering scent of roses in the room, and when his robe was placed on a crippled man's cot next to him, the man got up and walked.  There are so many miracles through the intercession of Saint Paissios that people are clamoring for him to be declared a saint.  Have there been any miracles through the intercession of Father Seraphim Rose?  I think not!
You think not? Who cares what you think? What do you know about Fr. Seraphim that disqualifies him from sainthood?

Now why am I so certain that Fr Seraphim Rose is not a saint?  Well forgetting the toll houses, which can be allegorical, I'm bothered by his condemning of a certain group of people,
Whom has Fr. Seraphim condemned?

rather than just condemning the ideals and values they follow.
Like you hold yourself to merely condemning the ideas others follow? You've clearly shown otherwise, thus showing your hypocrisy.

By condemning them, he was arousing hatred towards them.  Any form of passion such as hatred is a sin, so basically he was encouraging them to sin.   If you read any writings by saints, you will note that everything they say and write is edifying to a person's soul.   How can Father Seraphim be a saint when he was doing the opposite?   Huh   
Prove that he did the opposite. While you're at it, prove to us that you don't encourage us to sin by your constant condemning of other people.
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« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2012, 11:56:58 PM »

There are other threads on this subject, such as this one:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39719.0.html

Regarding the OP, Fr. Seraphim's comments regarding apostasy were mostly correct, though the situation was much more dire in his time than is the case at the present.  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's criticism of other jurisdictions and his respect of the Old Calendarists, St. Nikolai of Zica refused to pray with the fathers of Vatopedi Monastery on Mt. Athos when the monastery adopted the New Calendar for a time, and he provided chrism to the Old Calendarists in Greece who refused to accept the New Calendar despite the decision of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece (this was before Old Calendarists developed into a competing Synod in Greece with its own bishops).  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's views of the Old Calendarists, if you read his Life, and particularly the book "Letters from Fr. Seraphim", you will see that he became increasingly critical of these groups as he beccame more experienced with the bitter fruits of their fanaticism and sectarianism.

If you have not read his "Life", including the final chapters regarding his blessed repose, his appearances after his repose, the accounts of those who have been healed through his intercessions; if you have not acquainted yourself with the veneration that Fr. Seraphim receives throughout the Orthodox world (Greece, Russia, Serbia,etc.); then it would be of benefit to familiarize yourself before trusting too much in your present opinion on this subject.


What you said again is problematic, since monks are prohibited through humility to talk and write about themselves, so why would he be saying anything about himself unless it was to witness for Christ because of some great miracle that happened to him?
To my knowledge, Fr. Seraphim didn't write anything about himself. The "Life of St. Seraphim" so many reference is actually Fr. Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works, by Hieromonk Damascene, a spiritual child of Fr. Seraphim. Even then, Fr. Damascene waited until after Fr. Seraphim's repose to write his work.

Also why was he so involved with Church politics?
Actually, from my reading of Fr. Damascene, I get the impression that Fr. Seraphim actively avoided church politics. Have you read something that testifies differently?

Something just doesn't sit right with me.

Also you mentioned he is revered in Greece.  I doubt it.  Do you have any idea how many future saints they have had in the past decades, such as the Elder Ephraim who established the monasteries in this country.  There is the Elder Paissios who people are clamoring to have him declared a saint because of the many miracles through his intercession.  There is also his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios, who was able to see through mountains.  He called this charism of his the ability of clear sight. 

Another future saint is the Elder Emilianos, who is still alive and who the Elder Paissios said has the purest soul of them all.  He was given the gift of bi-location, and could be in two places at the same time.  In addition to these well known future saints, there are countless others throughout Greece.  One such was Crazy John, a lay person who had devoted his whole life to doing charitable acts in secret...He also had other charisms such as being able to foresee events.  He used it to save the area he lived in from a devastating flood. 

Anyway I could go on and on, and somehow I just can't see Father Seraphim as having the pure soul and humility that's a perquisite for a saint.  Huh
And what do you know of Fr. Seraphim that leads you to judge him so?
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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2012, 12:40:07 AM »

I doubt if many things woud grieve a Saint more than the realization that Christian brothers were arguing about whether or not they are a Saint.



Selam
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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2012, 01:04:06 AM »

I doubt if many things woud grieve a Saint more than the realization that Christian brothers were arguing about whether or not they are a Saint.



Selam

 Especially when some of these people insinuate that there probably is something nefarious that we don't know about him.  Shameful.  I wonder what they'll say when he's canonized?
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2012, 01:13:04 AM »

I doubt if many things woud grieve a Saint more than the realization that Christian brothers were arguing about whether or not they are a Saint.



Selam

 Especially when some of these people insinuate that there probably is something nefarious that we don't know about him.  Shameful.  I wonder what they'll say when he's canonized?

Indeed. I have seen that his own sister has written a book about him, attempting to discredit any notion of his sanctity. As interested as I would be to read it, I cannot help but to think it must be demonically inspired. Scary.


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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2012, 01:54:11 AM »

I doubt if many things woud grieve a Saint more than the realization that Christian brothers were arguing about whether or not they are a Saint.



Selam

 Especially when some of these people insinuate that there probably is something nefarious that we don't know about him.  Shameful.  I wonder what they'll say when he's canonized?

Indeed. I have seen that his own sister has written a book about him, attempting to discredit any notion of his sanctity. As interested as I would be to read it, I cannot help but to think it must be demonically inspired. Scary.
As much as I will resist attempts to disparage Fr. Seraphim's sanctity, I will also resist attempts to demonize his detractors as you have just done.
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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2012, 02:58:41 AM »

I doubt if many things woud grieve a Saint more than the realization that Christian brothers were arguing about whether or not they are a Saint.



Selam

 Especially when some of these people insinuate that there probably is something nefarious that we don't know about him.  Shameful.  I wonder what they'll say when he's canonized?

Indeed. I have seen that his own sister has written a book about him, attempting to discredit any notion of his sanctity. As interested as I would be to read it, I cannot help but to think it must be demonically inspired. Scary.
As much as I will resist attempts to disparage Fr. Seraphim's sanctity, I will also resist attempts to demonize his detractors as you have just done.

Agreed.
Unfortunately we miss the mark most often when we attempt to resolve with extremes.

As a part of the OP, does anyone besides myself here have an icon or pic in their corner?

I spoke to a few friends who were able to go for the feast. Waiting to hear back from the trip. Some of these friends are those who were there when Father Seraphim was at Platina. In fact, three of the parishes I have been a member of were established by the monks. Many of my church family have great stories to tell about Fr. Seraphim. Last Family Camp, someone who was baptized by him as a child had a whole talk about him. It was great!
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2012, 08:18:16 AM »

There are so many miracles through the intercession of Saint Paissios that people are clamoring for him to be declared a saint.  Have there been any miracles through the intercession of Father Seraphim Rose?  I think not!

So certain are you. Fr Seraphim has been credited with several miracles. Regardless, miracles are not a requirement for glorification. Not all saints are wonderworkers.

There have also been heavenly fragrances connected with Fr Seraphim's relics. So, I guess you're just misinformed.

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/father_seraphim_rose_spiritual_father
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« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2012, 08:25:49 AM »

What you said again is problematic, since monks are prohibited through humility to talk and write about themselves, so why would he be saying anything about himself unless it was to witness for Christ because of some great miracle that happened to him?  Also why was he so involved with Church politics?   Something just doesn't sit right with me.

It's a biography, not an autobiography.

As for politics, you're clearly very misinformed about Fr Seraphim's life, so perhaps you should read his biography before making any more bizarre claims about his conduct.

Anyway I could go on and on, and somehow I just can't see Father Seraphim as having the pure soul and humility that's a perquisite for a saint.  Huh

You're in a position to say so?
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2012, 08:56:17 AM »

Have there been any miracles through the intercession of Father Seraphim Rose?  I think not!

It is very shameful that you speak so definitively about a subject about which you are entirely ignorant.  Have you read "Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works"?  How can you comment about Fr. Seraphim without having known or at least read about him?  In this book that I just referenced, you can read about miracles through his intercessions in the chapter appropriately called "With the Saints". 

You may also find the following comments of interest, concerning how Fr. Seraphim was regarded immediately following his repose, taken from the book already mentioned:
Quote
Following his repose, many people had
visions of him which confirmed that he was among the saints, and even
Bishop Nektary of Seattle approached one of the sorrowful nuns who
looked upon the reposed Fr. Seraphim during his funeral and told her
“Don’t pray for Fr. Seraphim, pray to him.”

On the fortieth day after his repose, following the Divine Liturgy and
Pannikhida at the grave, Bishop Nektary gave a homily which ended with
the phrase: “Fr. Seraphim was a righteous man, possibly a saint.”  As
Fr. Damascene relates, “Bishop Nektary was well qualified to make such
a statement, having been in close contact with saints both in Russian
and the free world.  The priest who was translating his sermon into
English, however, hesitated in repeating this phrase, particularly the
last world.  Calculating that such a bold affirmation might be risky
since other Church leaders had not yet expressed their opinion, this
priest asked Bishop Nektary if he had really meant what he said.
Hitting the ground with his staff, the Bishop repeated, in Russian, ‘A
Saint!’ – and the confused priest was obliged to render this word in
English.

”Having led a procession from the hillock of Fr. Seraphim’s grave, the
Bishop was about to enter the church, still holding a censer in his
hand.  Abruptly he turned around and, with great feeling, loudly began
to sing the glorification hymn to monk-saints: ‘We glorify thee, our
holy Father Seraphim, and we honor thy holy memory:  instructor of
monks, and converser with the angels.’  The monks, clergy and pilgrims
joined in the singing, and the sorrow of being separated from Fr.
Seraphim was again transformed into joy.”

Bishop Nektary of Seattle, who knew Fr. Seraphim very well in this life and considered him a saint after his repose, was a spiritual child of St. Nektary of Optina.  Do you claim that Bishop Nektary did not know what he was talking about?  Or, do you know better than Bp. Nektary?  Rather it seems clear that your insistence that Fr. Seraphim is not a saint comes from either your ignorance about his life, his intercessions after his repose, and the veneration he receives throughout the Orthodox world.

Also you mentioned he is revered in Greece.  I doubt it.  Do you have any idea how many future saints they have had in the past decades, such as the Elder Ephraim who established the monasteries in this country. 

You obviously did not reference the link that I provided.  Fr. Peter Alban Heers, a priest who serves in Thessaloniki in Greece and frequents Mt. Athos, has a very good podcast on the subject of the veneration of Fr. Seraphim in Greece and throughout the world.  Please listen to this or read the transcript if you want to be at least a little informed concerning this subject:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/postcards/fr._seraphim_rose_in_greece

Concerning Elder Ephraim, Fr. Seraphim is much revered in Elder Ephraim’s monasteries.  If you have regard for these monasteries, go and ask them about Fr. Seraphim and his veneration in Greece and on Mt. Athos.

Quote
Anyway I could go on and on, and somehow I just can't see Father Seraphim as having the pure soul and humility that's a perquisite for a saint.  Huh

Yet, you have shown that you hardly know anything about Fr. Seraphim’s life, the miracles that have resulted from his intercessions, and the veneration that he receives by faithful Orthodox Christians throughout the world. 

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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2012, 11:30:44 PM »

There are other threads on this subject, such as this one:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39719.0.html

Regarding the OP, Fr. Seraphim's comments regarding apostasy were mostly correct, though the situation was much more dire in his time than is the case at the present.  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's criticism of other jurisdictions and his respect of the Old Calendarists, St. Nikolai of Zica refused to pray with the fathers of Vatopedi Monastery on Mt. Athos when the monastery adopted the New Calendar for a time, and he provided chrism to the Old Calendarists in Greece who refused to accept the New Calendar despite the decision of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece (this was before Old Calendarists developed into a competing Synod in Greece with its own bishops).  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's views of the Old Calendarists, if you read his Life, and particularly the book "Letters from Fr. Seraphim", you will see that he became increasingly critical of these groups as he beccame more experienced with the bitter fruits of their fanaticism and sectarianism.

If you have not read his "Life", including the final chapters regarding his blessed repose, his appearances after his repose, the accounts of those who have been healed through his intercessions; if you have not acquainted yourself with the veneration that Fr. Seraphim receives throughout the Orthodox world (Greece, Russia, Serbia,etc.); then it would be of benefit to familiarize yourself before trusting too much in your present opinion on this subject.


What you said again is problematic, since monks are prohibited through humility to talk and write about themselves, so why would he be saying anything about himself unless it was to witness for Christ because of some great miracle that happened to him?
To my knowledge, Fr. Seraphim didn't write anything about himself. The "Life of St. Seraphim" so many reference is actually Fr. Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works, by Hieromonk Damascene, a spiritual child of Fr. Seraphim. Even then, Fr. Damascene waited until after Fr. Seraphim's repose to write his work.

Also why was he so involved with Church politics?
Actually, from my reading of Fr. Damascene, I get the impression that Fr. Seraphim actively avoided church politics. Have you read something that testifies differently?

Something just doesn't sit right with me.

Also you mentioned he is revered in Greece.  I doubt it.  Do you have any idea how many future saints they have had in the past decades, such as the Elder Ephraim who established the monasteries in this country.  There is the Elder Paissios who people are clamoring to have him declared a saint because of the many miracles through his intercession.  There is also his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios, who was able to see through mountains.  He called this charism of his the ability of clear sight. 

Another future saint is the Elder Emilianos, who is still alive and who the Elder Paissios said has the purest soul of them all.  He was given the gift of bi-location, and could be in two places at the same time.  In addition to these well known future saints, there are countless others throughout Greece.  One such was Crazy John, a lay person who had devoted his whole life to doing charitable acts in secret...He also had other charisms such as being able to foresee events.  He used it to save the area he lived in from a devastating flood. 

Anyway I could go on and on, and somehow I just can't see Father Seraphim as having the pure soul and humility that's a perquisite for a saint.  Huh
And what do you know of Fr. Seraphim that leads you to judge him so?

It's not judging, it's called discernment.  Big difference! I'm relating the books I read by him, to the books by other saints, and his writings  turned me off.   I didn't find them edifying and I was trying to explain why.   I'm not condemning him, after all he is human and we're all faulty, I'm merely questioning whether he had the perquisite humility and purity of heart of a saint.   Huh
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« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2012, 11:53:48 PM »

I doubt if many things woud grieve a Saint more than the realization that Christian brothers were arguing about whether or not they are a Saint.



Selam

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« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2012, 11:56:40 PM »

Have there been any miracles through the intercession of Father Seraphim Rose?  I think not!

It is very shameful that you speak so definitively about a subject about which you are entirely ignorant.  Have you read "Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works"?  How can you comment about Fr. Seraphim without having known or at least read about him?  In this book that I just referenced, you can read about miracles through his intercessions in the chapter appropriately called "With the Saints". 

You may also find the following comments of interest, concerning how Fr. Seraphim was regarded immediately following his repose, taken from the book already mentioned:
Quote
Following his repose, many people had
visions of him which confirmed that he was among the saints, and even
Bishop Nektary of Seattle approached one of the sorrowful nuns who
looked upon the reposed Fr. Seraphim during his funeral and told her
“Don’t pray for Fr. Seraphim, pray to him.”

On the fortieth day after his repose, following the Divine Liturgy and
Pannikhida at the grave, Bishop Nektary gave a homily which ended with
the phrase: “Fr. Seraphim was a righteous man, possibly a saint.”  As
Fr. Damascene relates, “Bishop Nektary was well qualified to make such
a statement, having been in close contact with saints both in Russian
and the free world.  The priest who was translating his sermon into
English, however, hesitated in repeating this phrase, particularly the
last world.  Calculating that such a bold affirmation might be risky
since other Church leaders had not yet expressed their opinion, this
priest asked Bishop Nektary if he had really meant what he said.
Hitting the ground with his staff, the Bishop repeated, in Russian, ‘A
Saint!’ – and the confused priest was obliged to render this word in
English.

”Having led a procession from the hillock of Fr. Seraphim’s grave, the
Bishop was about to enter the church, still holding a censer in his
hand.  Abruptly he turned around and, with great feeling, loudly began
to sing the glorification hymn to monk-saints: ‘We glorify thee, our
holy Father Seraphim, and we honor thy holy memory:  instructor of
monks, and converser with the angels.’  The monks, clergy and pilgrims
joined in the singing, and the sorrow of being separated from Fr.
Seraphim was again transformed into joy.”

Bishop Nektary of Seattle, who knew Fr. Seraphim very well in this life and considered him a saint after his repose, was a spiritual child of St. Nektary of Optina.  Do you claim that Bishop Nektary did not know what he was talking about?  Or, do you know better than Bp. Nektary?  Rather it seems clear that your insistence that Fr. Seraphim is not a saint comes from either your ignorance about his life, his intercessions after his repose, and the veneration he receives throughout the Orthodox world.

Also you mentioned he is revered in Greece.  I doubt it.  Do you have any idea how many future saints they have had in the past decades, such as the Elder Ephraim who established the monasteries in this country. 

You obviously did not reference the link that I provided.  Fr. Peter Alban Heers, a priest who serves in Thessaloniki in Greece and frequents Mt. Athos, has a very good podcast on the subject of the veneration of Fr. Seraphim in Greece and throughout the world.  Please listen to this or read the transcript if you want to be at least a little informed concerning this subject:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/postcards/fr._seraphim_rose_in_greece

Concerning Elder Ephraim, Fr. Seraphim is much revered in Elder Ephraim’s monasteries.  If you have regard for these monasteries, go and ask them about Fr. Seraphim and his veneration in Greece and on Mt. Athos.

Quote
Anyway I could go on and on, and somehow I just can't see Father Seraphim as having the pure soul and humility that's a perquisite for a saint.  Huh

Yet, you have shown that you hardly know anything about Fr. Seraphim’s life, the miracles that have resulted from his intercessions, and the veneration that he receives by faithful Orthodox Christians throughout the world. 



You have not said anything in your post other than the opinion of a very opinionated bishop, also that he is highly venerated in certain places.  In other words you are asking me to accept what Bishop Nektari said and what you are saying.  Forget it!  As I said, I have not found anything written by Father Seraphim Rose as being edifying to one's soul.

Now I'm not condemning him, but he is not a saint...so you can scream all you want.  Besides, what do you care what my opinion is.  If he is a saint, (which I'm sure he is not), God will show it to the world by performing mass miracles through his intercession.  His  body also won't corrupt.  There might  even be a flow and scent of myrhh from the coffin.  This has happened quite often with the Grand Duchess Saint Elizabeth, and with Saint Demetrius the New Martyr of Tripoli.  

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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2012, 12:07:48 AM »

There are other threads on this subject, such as this one:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39719.0.html

Regarding the OP, Fr. Seraphim's comments regarding apostasy were mostly correct, though the situation was much more dire in his time than is the case at the present.  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's criticism of other jurisdictions and his respect of the Old Calendarists, St. Nikolai of Zica refused to pray with the fathers of Vatopedi Monastery on Mt. Athos when the monastery adopted the New Calendar for a time, and he provided chrism to the Old Calendarists in Greece who refused to accept the New Calendar despite the decision of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece (this was before Old Calendarists developed into a competing Synod in Greece with its own bishops).  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's views of the Old Calendarists, if you read his Life, and particularly the book "Letters from Fr. Seraphim", you will see that he became increasingly critical of these groups as he beccame more experienced with the bitter fruits of their fanaticism and sectarianism.

If you have not read his "Life", including the final chapters regarding his blessed repose, his appearances after his repose, the accounts of those who have been healed through his intercessions; if you have not acquainted yourself with the veneration that Fr. Seraphim receives throughout the Orthodox world (Greece, Russia, Serbia,etc.); then it would be of benefit to familiarize yourself before trusting too much in your present opinion on this subject.


What you said again is problematic, since monks are prohibited through humility to talk and write about themselves, so why would he be saying anything about himself unless it was to witness for Christ because of some great miracle that happened to him?
To my knowledge, Fr. Seraphim didn't write anything about himself. The "Life of St. Seraphim" so many reference is actually Fr. Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works, by Hieromonk Damascene, a spiritual child of Fr. Seraphim. Even then, Fr. Damascene waited until after Fr. Seraphim's repose to write his work.

Also why was he so involved with Church politics?
Actually, from my reading of Fr. Damascene, I get the impression that Fr. Seraphim actively avoided church politics. Have you read something that testifies differently?

Something just doesn't sit right with me.

Also you mentioned he is revered in Greece.  I doubt it.  Do you have any idea how many future saints they have had in the past decades, such as the Elder Ephraim who established the monasteries in this country.  There is the Elder Paissios who people are clamoring to have him declared a saint because of the many miracles through his intercession.  There is also his spiritual father the Elder Porphyrios, who was able to see through mountains.  He called this charism of his the ability of clear sight.  

Another future saint is the Elder Emilianos, who is still alive and who the Elder Paissios said has the purest soul of them all.  He was given the gift of bi-location, and could be in two places at the same time.  In addition to these well known future saints, there are countless others throughout Greece.  One such was Crazy John, a lay person who had devoted his whole life to doing charitable acts in secret...He also had other charisms such as being able to foresee events.  He used it to save the area he lived in from a devastating flood.  

Anyway I could go on and on, and somehow I just can't see Father Seraphim as having the pure soul and humility that's a perquisite for a saint.  Huh
And what do you know of Fr. Seraphim that leads you to judge him so?

It's not judging, it's called discernment. Big difference! I'm relating the books I read by him, to the books by other saints, and his writings  turned me off.
And what makes you think you have the discernment to judge that the problem was with him and not within you? Are you a saint?

I didn't find them edifying and I was trying to explain why.   I'm not condemning him, after all he is human and we're all faulty, I'm merely questioning whether he had the perquisite humility and purity of heart of a saint.   Huh
It doesn't sound to me as if you're questioning anything. You seem pretty damn certain to me.
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2012, 12:20:33 AM »

You have not said anything in your post other than the opinion of a very opinionated bishop, also that he is highly venerated in certain places.  In other words you are asking me to accept what Bishop Nektari said and what you are saying.  Forget it!  As I said, I have not found anything written by Father Seraphim Rose as being edifying to one's soul.

Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future

Now I'm not condemning him, but he is not a saint...so you can scream all you want.  Besides, what do you care what my opinion is.  If he is a saint, (which I'm sure he is not), God will show it to the world by performing mass miracles through his intercession.  His  body also won't corrupt.  There might  even be a flow and scent of myrhh from the coffin.  This has happened quite often with the Grand Duchess Saint Elizabeth, and with Saint Demetrius the New Martyr of Tripoli.   

Sorry, didn't know you were God and knew who was in heaven...
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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2012, 12:35:17 AM »

celticfan,

I guess that Zenovia did not mean he is not in heaven, but that he is not a saint in the sense of being a suitable intercessor and model of emulation for the faithful.
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« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2012, 01:23:21 AM »

i just returned from 2 months at Platina, where I was privileged to pray at Fr. Seraphim's grave every day, speak with Fr. Damascene at length about him, read some of his unpublished works, and also meet and speak with several others who knew him very well. I was there when the Russian bishop of Tobinsk came with a group of pilgrims to serve Liturgy at Fr. Seraphim's monastery and to venerate his grave, and I was there when a Serbian abbot (who has named a kellia of one of his monasteries after Fr. Seraphim), a Georgian abbot, and a Bulgarian bishop came to pay their respects to him on the day of his repose. It was an amazing and grace-filled summer. I am even more in awe of the life and works of this righteous struggle than I was before - having lived in the same monastery as him (although the life there was far more ascetic in his time) and learned many new things about him. he is a bright and shining example for us, if we have eyes to see it. its one thing to feel no particular connection to him, but it is quite sad when us Americans, for whom he sacrificed himself so much, disparage him and his holy memory. i think i can pretty safely say that no one on this forum has given even 1/100th of what Fr. Seraphim gave of himself, and yet we reject him, and so many doing so on the basis of ignorance of his life and teachings, and ignorance of what other holy Saints and elders have taught. Lord have mercy on us all!

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« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2012, 01:30:11 AM »

You have not said anything in your post other than the opinion of a very opinionated bishop, also that he is highly venerated in certain places.  In other words you are asking me to accept what Bishop Nektari said and what you are saying.  Forget it!  As I said, I have not found anything written by Father Seraphim Rose as being edifying to one's soul.


that says pretty clearly that you haven't read much then. have you read God's Revelation to the Human Heart? how is a talk about preparing your heart to experience God NOT edifying?
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« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2012, 01:52:42 AM »

You have not said anything in your post other than the opinion of a very opinionated bishop, also that he is highly venerated in certain places.  In other words you are asking me to accept what Bishop Nektari said and what you are saying.  Forget it!  As I said, I have not found anything written by Father Seraphim Rose as being edifying to one's soul.


that says pretty clearly that you haven't read much then. have you read God's Revelation to the Human Heart? how is a talk about preparing your heart to experience God NOT edifying?
Whom are you quoting here? Zenovia? Or celticfan quoting Zenovia?
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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2012, 02:00:45 AM »

my bad, just zenovia
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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2012, 02:02:43 AM »

You have not said anything in your post other than the opinion of a very opinionated bishop, also that he is highly venerated in certain places.  In other words you are asking me to accept what Bishop Nektari said and what you are saying.  Forget it!  As I said, I have not found anything written by Father Seraphim Rose as being edifying to one's soul.


that says pretty clearly that you haven't read much then. have you read God's Revelation to the Human Heart? how is a talk about preparing your heart to experience God NOT edifying?

I hope you quote Zenovia, because I agree with you jckstraw72.  Wink
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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2012, 08:30:10 AM »

You have not said anything in your post other than the opinion of a very opinionated bishop, also that he is highly venerated in certain places.  In other words you are asking me to accept what Bishop Nektari said and what you are saying.  Forget it!  As I said, I have not found anything written by Father Seraphim Rose as being edifying to one's soul.

Now I'm not condemning him, but he is not a saint...so you can scream all you want.  Besides, what do you care what my opinion is.  If he is a saint, (which I'm sure he is not), God will show it to the world by performing mass miracles through his intercession.  His  body also won't corrupt.  There might  even be a flow and scent of myrhh from the coffin.  This has happened quite often with the Grand Duchess Saint Elizabeth, and with Saint Demetrius the New Martyr of Tripoli.

I am not asking you to accept anything, but I am encouraging you to learn more about Fr. Seraphim, his life, the wide veneration he receives throughout the Orthodox world, and the opinions concerning him of other holy and God-loving people before trusting too much in your own opinion on the matter.  It would not bother me if you simply said that you were not particularly drawn to him, or that you personally do not consider him a saint.  The problem is that, while having never read his Life, while being unaware of the wide veneration he receives throughout the world, while being unaware of the miracles that have occurred after his repose and the many signs of his sanctity; that despite your admitted ignorance concerning all of this you consider your own uniformed opinion to be equivalent to a divine revelation from God concerning the matter.  Again, you have not simply expressed doubts or your own personal view on the subject, but have claimed categorically and definitively that "he is not a saint" and that you are "sure he is not" a saint, as if despite all the evidence and testimony to the contrary, and despite your ignorance concerning him, God has chosen you to reveal to us the final state of Fr. Seraphim's soul.   
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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2012, 09:25:11 AM »

Isn't our friend Zenovia the one who was hell-bent on saying that only monastics can attain to holiness or some such thing? Wink If so, why all the ruckus about the Blessed Seraphim of Platina? He lived a a very full monastic life with much fruit beared after his repose.

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« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2012, 09:43:09 AM »

If he is a saint, (which I'm sure he is not), God will show it to the world by performing mass miracles through his intercession.  His  body also won't corrupt.  There might  even be a flow and scent of myrhh from the coffin.  This has happened quite often with the Grand Duchess Saint Elizabeth, and with Saint Demetrius the New Martyr of Tripoli.  

It doesn't work this way. Glorification does not depend solely upon miracles or heavenly scents—although people have reported both in connection with Fr Seraphim. (Which you would know if you read more about him.)
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« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2012, 11:45:42 AM »

A Prophet is not without honor, except in his own land and among his own people.  So said the Lord about His own people.  Father Seraphim's treatment by the pseudodox of this country is probably what speaks the loudest as to his position as a Saint.

i just returned from 2 months at Platina, where I was privileged to pray at Fr. Seraphim's grave every day, speak with Fr. Damascene at length about him, read some of his unpublished works, and also meet and speak with several others who knew him very well. I was there when the Russian bishop of Tobinsk came with a group of pilgrims to serve Liturgy at Fr. Seraphim's monastery and to venerate his grave, and I was there when a Serbian abbot (who has named a kellia of one of his monasteries after Fr. Seraphim), a Georgian abbot, and a Bulgarian bishop came to pay their respects to him on the day of his repose. It was an amazing and grace-filled summer. I am even more in awe of the life and works of this righteous struggle than I was before - having lived in the same monastery as him (although the life there was far more ascetic in his time) and learned many new things about him. he is a bright and shining example for us, if we have eyes to see it. its one thing to feel no particular connection to him, but it is quite sad when us Americans, for whom he sacrificed himself so much, disparage him and his holy memory. i think i can pretty safely say that no one on this forum has given even 1/100th of what Fr. Seraphim gave of himself, and yet we reject him, and so many doing so on the basis of ignorance of his life and teachings, and ignorance of what other holy Saints and elders have taught. Lord have mercy on us all!


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« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2012, 11:50:57 AM »

A Prophet is not without honor, except in his own land and among his own people.  So said the Lord about His own people.  Father Seraphim's treatment by the pseudodox of this country is probably what speaks the loudest as to his position as a Saint.


Frankly, I have not yet formed an opinion on this matter regarding him while I certainly respect the fact that his published works have inspired many to inquire about Orthodoxy and to join the faith. However, it is 'below the belt' and unfair to deride those who do not as of yet support glorification or who do not accept all of his controversial theological positions as 'pseudodox' or worse.  In fact it is just as wrong as those who would ridicule the traditionalist churches and even ROCOR as being hyperdox etc....
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« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2012, 11:54:10 AM »

It seems that there is little ground for agreeing that he is a saint for the sake of consensus and seeing his theology as fallible. The 3rd Rome is not part of my Christian faith.
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« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2012, 12:06:15 PM »

It seems that there is little ground for agreeing that he is a saint for the sake of consensus and seeing his theology as fallible. The 3rd Rome is not part of my Christian faith.

Russia? Why not? Aren't you Orthodox?
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« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2012, 12:09:19 PM »

It seems that there is little ground for agreeing that he is a saint for the sake of consensus and seeing his theology as fallible. The 3rd Rome is not part of my Christian faith.

Russia? Why not? Aren't you Orthodox?

Come on, you know what he means.
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« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2012, 12:10:48 PM »

It seems that there is little ground for agreeing that he is a saint for the sake of consensus and seeing his theology as fallible. The 3rd Rome is not part of my Christian faith.

Russia? Why not? Aren't you Orthodox?
I could care less either way about some political ideology & am willing to let those who beleive it do so. Others feel less so also:   http://cathedraunitatis.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/constantinople-denounces-third-rome-theory/
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« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2012, 12:16:47 PM »

It seems that there is little ground for agreeing that he is a saint for the sake of consensus and seeing his theology as fallible. The 3rd Rome is not part of my Christian faith.

Russia? Why not? Aren't you Orthodox?
I could care less either way about some political ideology & am willing to let those who beleive it do so. Others feel less so also:   http://cathedraunitatis.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/constantinople-denounces-third-rome-theory/

Who cares what +Bartholomew thinks about Russia? Honestly?

May we also bring up the ridiculous & false mythology that St. Andrew founded the Church of Constantinople?

He has bordered far too close to ecumenism in recent years. He's tried to exercise too much power over the entirety of Orthodox Christendom. His jurisdiction doesn't extend nearly as far as he'd like to think. His jurisdiction is stuck where it was hundreds of years ago. He needs to spend his time trying to convert the Turkish people and the return of Old Calendarists instead of trying to play buddy-buddy with the Pope and extending his power beyond his jurisdictional boundaries.

And this is coming from someone who has had the pleasure of seeing him and kissing his hand. I respect +Bartholomew because of his position as first among equals, but not because of what he has said and done.
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« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2012, 12:22:42 PM »

Reply to #78 ^^^ (quote function problem): I do not even care what Patriarch Bartholomew thinks about it or even agree with the vehemence of his denunciation. Nonetheless, I agree with him on the basis that it has no ultimate meaning in Christian faith & is seen as useless (to be kind) by some of us.
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« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2012, 12:25:51 PM »

Reply to #78 ^^^ (quote function problem): I do not even care what Patriarch Bartholomew thinks about it or even agree with the vehemence of his denunciation. Nonetheless, I agree with him on the basis that it has no ultimate meaning in Christian faith & is seen as useless (to be kind) by some of us.

That is true, but I don't really think anyone reasonable has argued that it does. The Patriarch of Constantinople (I wished he'd drop the Ecumenical title) is the first among equals, unless he falls into heresy and causes his church to schism off, that isn't going to change.

However I do think that Moscow's place should allow it to rank up there with the current Pentarchy.
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« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2012, 12:58:56 PM »

I am sceptical about considering Fr. Seraphim Rose a saint. Let us discuss pros and cons of a glorification in this thread.


One con is that he accused Orthodox hierarchs of mass apostasy and considered uncanonical jurisdctions to be more Orthodox than canonical ones...

Returning to the OP, I think most Orthodox Christians greatly revere St. John of San Francisco as a saint.  Yet, some who hold St. John in the greatest esteem are also quite severe in their criticism of Fr. Seraphim (Rose), while Fr. Seraphim is often fiercely criticized for teaching and believing things which were taught and believed just as well by St. John.  In fact, much of what Fr. Seraphim is criticized for he learned directly from St. John.

There are plenty of threads already on the toll house teaching, and I do not wish to start up the discussion here, but I have noticed with interest that entire books have been written against “Fr. Seraphim’s teaching concerning the tollhouses” (Fr. Michael Azkoul of HOCNA and Abp. Lazar who was very close with HOCNA but joined a different schismatic group), yet the authors of these works completely ignore the fact that Fr. Seraphim’s detailed discussion of the toll house teaching comes entirely from an Homily by St. John of San Francisco.  These authors will not criticize St. John in their writings because everyone knows that he is a great saint, but they do criticize Fr. Seraphim because Fr. Seraphim exposed their fanaticism and sectarianism during his life (he predicted that Holy Transfiguration Monastery would go into schism from ROCOR more than 10 yrs before it happened, he predicted that the Old Calendarists would break into numerous competing factions at a time when there were only two such factions, he spoke against the scholasticism and fanaticism of Azkoul and Abp Lazar who was then a deacon, and he exposed their problematic approach to Orthodoxy).  In order to criticize Fr. Seraphim’s teaching, one has to speak of St. John’s teaching on the subject, yet what is overlooked in venerating St. John becomes an obstacle to considering Fr. Seraphim a saint?

Regarding Fr. Seraphim’s criticism of other jurisdictions, St. John of San Francisco encouraged the fathers at Platina to speak out against the ecumenistic excesses of Patriarch Athenagoras in their “Orthodox Word” publication (this is mentioned in published letters from Fr. Seraphim).  St. John himself wrote the following excellent article on “Decline of the Patriarchate of Constantinople”:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/decline.aspx

At the end of this article, St. John states:
Quote
In sum, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in theory embracing almost the whole universe and in fact extending its authority only over several dioceses, and in other places having only a higher superficial supervision and receiving certain revenues for this, persecuted by the government at home and not supported by any governmental authority abroad: having lost its significance as a pillar of truth and having itself become a source of division, and at the same time being possessed by an exorbitant love of power—represents a pitiful spectacle which recalls the worst periods in the history of the See of Constantinople.

Are St. John’s comments not similar to what Fr. Seraphim is being criticized for?

What saints have not been critical of the spirit of compromise that one sees today in practically every jurisdiction?  Has Zenovia, who claims to regard Elder Paisios as a saint, not heard of his criticism of priests who go around without their cassocks?  Was not Elder Philotheos (Zervakos) critical of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece until his last breath regarding the adoption of the New Calendar?  If one actually reads the lives and writings of the contemporary saints and elders, and actually reads the life and writings of Fr. Seraphim, one will see their common mind and struggles. 
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« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2012, 01:04:35 PM »

It seems that there is little ground for agreeing that he is a saint for the sake of consensus and seeing his theology as fallible. The 3rd Rome is not part of my Christian faith.

Russia? Why not? Aren't you Orthodox?

Come on, you know what he means.

Honestly, I didn't. So calm down.
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« Reply #83 on: September 07, 2012, 02:36:16 PM »

I am sceptical about considering Fr. Seraphim Rose a saint. Let us discuss pros and cons of a glorification in this thread.


One con is that he accused Orthodox hierarchs of mass apostasy and considered uncanonical jurisdctions to be more Orthodox than canonical ones...

Returning to the OP, I think most Orthodox Christians greatly revere St. John of San Francisco as a saint.  Yet, some who hold St. John in the greatest esteem are also quite severe in their criticism of Fr. Seraphim (Rose), while Fr. Seraphim is often fiercely criticized for teaching and believing things which were taught and believed just as well by St. John.  In fact, much of what Fr. Seraphim is criticized for he learned directly from St. John.

There are plenty of threads already on the toll house teaching, and I do not wish to start up the discussion here, but I have noticed with interest that entire books have been written against “Fr. Seraphim’s teaching concerning the tollhouses” (Fr. Michael Azkoul of HOCNA and Abp. Lazar who was very close with HOCNA but joined a different schismatic group), yet the authors of these works completely ignore the fact that Fr. Seraphim’s detailed discussion of the toll house teaching comes entirely from an Homily by St. John of San Francisco.  These authors will not criticize St. John in their writings because everyone knows that he is a great saint, but they do criticize Fr. Seraphim because Fr. Seraphim exposed their fanaticism and sectarianism during his life (he predicted that Holy Transfiguration Monastery would go into schism from ROCOR more than 10 yrs before it happened, he predicted that the Old Calendarists would break into numerous competing factions at a time when there were only two such factions, he spoke against the scholasticism and fanaticism of Azkoul and Abp Lazar who was then a deacon, and he exposed their problematic approach to Orthodoxy).  In order to criticize Fr. Seraphim’s teaching, one has to speak of St. John’s teaching on the subject, yet what is overlooked in venerating St. John becomes an obstacle to considering Fr. Seraphim a saint?

Regarding Fr. Seraphim’s criticism of other jurisdictions, St. John of San Francisco encouraged the fathers at Platina to speak out against the ecumenistic excesses of Patriarch Athenagoras in their “Orthodox Word” publication (this is mentioned in published letters from Fr. Seraphim).  St. John himself wrote the following excellent article on “Decline of the Patriarchate of Constantinople”:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/decline.aspx

At the end of this article, St. John states:
Quote
In sum, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in theory embracing almost the whole universe and in fact extending its authority only over several dioceses, and in other places having only a higher superficial supervision and receiving certain revenues for this, persecuted by the government at home and not supported by any governmental authority abroad: having lost its significance as a pillar of truth and having itself become a source of division, and at the same time being possessed by an exorbitant love of power—represents a pitiful spectacle which recalls the worst periods in the history of the See of Constantinople.

Are St. John’s comments not similar to what Fr. Seraphim is being criticized for?

What saints have not been critical of the spirit of compromise that one sees today in practically every jurisdiction?  Has Zenovia, who claims to regard Elder Paisios as a saint, not heard of his criticism of priests who go around without their cassocks?  Was not Elder Philotheos (Zervakos) critical of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece until his last breath regarding the adoption of the New Calendar?  If one actually reads the lives and writings of the contemporary saints and elders, and actually reads the life and writings of Fr. Seraphim, one will see their common mind and struggles.  


God bless you! Fr. Seraphim was chosen, as a laymen (Eugene at the time) by St. John to write homilies for publications of the diocese. It was well known that St. John had a special interest in Eugene and Eugene learned theology directly from St. John and others hand-picked by St. John in the theological courses they taught over the course of several years (Fr. Herman even believes that St. John put the courses together especially for Eugene). St. John blessed the founding of the Fr. Herman Brotherhood and he appeared to Fr. Seraphim many times throughout his monastic life. They are of the same spirit and Fr. Seraphim's entire Orthodox life was guided by the prayers of St. John.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 02:37:26 PM by jckstraw72 » Logged
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« Reply #84 on: September 07, 2012, 02:42:02 PM »

The Ecumenical Pariarchate is not dead. Its demise has been predicted since 1453, or even before. But that never happened. On the contrary, I believe it has the Future. An Orthodoxy that cares about people and the environment, rather than headscarves and watches.
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« Reply #85 on: September 07, 2012, 02:51:00 PM »

The Ecumenical Pariarchate is not dead. Its demise has been predicted since 1453, or even before. But that never happened. On the contrary, I believe it has the Future. An Orthodoxy that cares about people and the environment, rather than headscarves and watches.

+1
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« Reply #86 on: September 07, 2012, 02:52:09 PM »

The Ecumenical Pariarchate is not dead. Its demise has been predicted since 1453, or even before. But that never happened. On the contrary, I believe it has the Future. An Orthodoxy that cares about people and the environment, rather than headscarves and watches.

Indeed!  God protect His All-Holiness Bartholomew and the Ecumenical Throne!

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« Reply #87 on: September 07, 2012, 03:02:18 PM »

The Ecumenical Pariarchate is not dead. Its demise has been predicted since 1453, or even before. But that never happened. On the contrary, I believe it has the Future. An Orthodoxy that cares about people and the environment, rather than headscarves and watches.

St. John of San Francisco did not say that the Patriarchate of Constantinople was "dead", nor did Fr. Seraphim, nor did I.  What St. John spoke of was its decline.  We should all hope that Constantinople does have a future, and that the decline will be reversed and the Patriarch will again be a great defender of Orthodoxy as were many of his holy predecessors, rather than a source of scandal.

This issue is not an EP vs. MP one.  The Holy Synod of the Church of Greece is among the most outspoken regarding the unjustifiable compromises of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. 
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« Reply #88 on: September 07, 2012, 03:02:46 PM »

I asked a hieromonk in our jurisdiction about whether he thought Fr Seraphim should be venerated as a saint. He was formerly a seminarian in Jordanville, and knew people who themselves remembered Fr Seraphim. For what it's worth, he thought of Fr Seraphim as a good monk, but not of the same caliber as other saints. I suppose one should read his life and compare it with that of unambiguous saints, like St John of Kronstadt, or St John of San Francisco.
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« Reply #89 on: September 07, 2012, 03:06:22 PM »

The Ecumenical Pariarchate is not dead. Its demise has been predicted since 1453, or even before. But that never happened. On the contrary, I believe it has the Future. An Orthodoxy that cares about people and the environment, rather than headscarves and watches.

St. John of San Francisco did not say that the Patriarchate of Constantinople was "dead", nor did Fr. Seraphim, nor did I.  What St. John spoke of was its decline.  We should all hope that Constantinople does have a future, and that the decline will be reversed and the Patriarch will again be a great defender of Orthodoxy as were many of his holy predecessors, rather than a source of scandal.

This issue is not an EP vs. MP one.  The Holy Synod of the Church of Greece is among the most outspoken regarding the unjustifiable compromises of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. 

Methinks the so-called great united Church of America is located in a galaxy far, far away my friends.
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