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Author Topic: Should Fr. Seraphim Rose be glorified?  (Read 7928 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 03, 2012, 07:22:53 PM »

I am sceptical about considering Fr. Seraphim Rose a saint. Let us discuss pros and cons of a glorification in this thread.


One con is that he accused Orthodox hierarchs of mass apostasy and considered uncanonical jurisdctions to be more Orthodox than canonical ones.

Source: http://remnantrocor.blogspot.com/2012/09/memory-eternal.html
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 07:41:32 PM »

If I recall correctly he said a similar things about seminaries other than Jordanville in his introduction to the Vita Patrum of St. Gregory of Tours. On the other hand, I believe he softened his stance in later years though. For example, I remember hearing that he communed people from new calendarist jurisdictions. I think he also regretted some of his earlier writings that had helped foster a "super-correct" attitude in some.
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 08:08:04 PM »

I think you have to understand the state of Russian Orthodoxy at the time to understand these comments. It was a complicated, apocalyptic time, for obvious reasons. To take these quotes out of historical context and judge them doesn't work, IMO. Fr Seraphim did moderate his views on some issues late in life.

But that's neither here nor there. His personal story is grounds enough for sainthood in my view. The Church needs to hold up high such contemporary and relatable examples of radical repentance in this dark world.
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 08:12:34 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 08:35:04 PM »

But that's neither here nor there. His personal story is grounds enough for sainthood in my view. The Church needs to hold up high such contemporary and relatable examples of radical repentance in this dark world.

I agree.
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 08:44:46 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

I agree. some of Fr. Seraphim's teachings which remain of record are far too controversial to merit his "recognition" as a saint, the "toll houses" teaching which is outside the consensus of Orthodox Church teaching, is a leading reason that would preclude his "glorification."
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« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 08:54:17 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

I agree. some of Fr. Seraphim's teachings which remain of record are far too controversial to merit his "recognition" as a saint, the "toll houses" teaching which is outside the consensus of Orthodox Church teaching, is a leading reason that would preclude his "glorification."

*cough*St Symeon the New Theologian*cough*
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« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 09:00:21 PM »

It really does not matter what you all think.  God is the one who glorifies His Saints, and thousands, if not tens of thousands, already venerate him as one.  Your discussion is irrelevant.
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« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 09:01:17 PM »

It really does not matter what you all think.  Putin is the one who glorifies His Saints, and thousands, if not tens of thousands, already venerate him as one.  Your discussion is irrelevant.
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« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 09:10:49 PM »

As much as he is controversal in the States, he is highly regarded and venerated in Russia and else where. I think it's only a matter of time before he is cannonized.

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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 09:18:28 PM »

Doesn't make a difference at all. This is not the Roman Catholic Church this is the Orthodox Church. Canonization is merely the Church's formal recognition of Sainthood. But as the people we have recognized his Sainthood and been venerating and asking for his intercessions for a pretty long time. Long story short; I don't think it makes a difference. We still know and love him whether he is officially a Saint or not.
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 09:26:58 PM »

God knows. Maybe He will tell us.
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 09:29:03 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

I agree. some of Fr. Seraphim's teachings which remain of record are far too controversial to merit his "recognition" as a saint, the "toll houses" teaching which is outside the consensus of Orthodox Church teaching, is a leading reason that would preclude his "glorification."
Have you considered, then, de-glorifying St. Augustine of Hippo for the same reasons? (It seems that many already have.)
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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 09:39:21 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 09:49:47 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

I agree. some of Fr. Seraphim's teachings which remain of record are far too controversial to merit his "recognition" as a saint, the "toll houses" teaching which is outside the consensus of Orthodox Church teaching, is a leading reason that would preclude his "glorification."
Have you considered, then, de-glorifying St. Augustine of Hippo for the same reasons? (It seems that many already have.)

I'm not a big fan of the Blessed Augustine either, who was an early proponent of the false teaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and and the Son, contrary to scripture.
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« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 10:42:48 PM »

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

I agree. some of Fr. Seraphim's teachings which remain of record are far too controversial to merit his "recognition" as a saint, the "toll houses" teaching which is outside the consensus of Orthodox Church teaching, is a leading reason that would preclude his "glorification."
Have you considered, then, de-glorifying St. Augustine of Hippo for the same reasons? (It seems that many already have.)

I'm not a big fan of the Blessed Augustine either, who was an early proponent of the false teaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and and the Son, contrary to scripture.
It doesn't matter if you're not a big fan of St. Augustine. He is glorified as a saint in both East and West, and he even has a feast day on the Orthodox menologion: June 15.
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« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 11:19:13 PM »

Also, it is up to ROCOR to canonize him  since he was under their jurisdiction.
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 11:46:13 PM »

I think you have to understand the state of Russian Orthodoxy at the time to understand these comments. It was a complicated, apocalyptic time, for obvious reasons. To take these quotes out of historical context and judge them doesn't work, IMO. Fr Seraphim did moderate his views on some issues late in life.

But that's neither here nor there. His personal story is grounds enough for sainthood in my view. The Church needs to hold up high such contemporary and relatable examples of radical repentance in this dark world.

I could be wrong but there could be others besides myself that are totally clueless as to what you are writing about.

What was the complicated apocalyptic event or situation in the Russian Orthodox Church? How did Fr. Seraphim Rose solve this problem?

That is my main question, if you have time:
What is it about his life story that makes him a saint?
What sets him apart from Metropolitans Kallistos Ware or John Ziziulas or Fr. Peter Gilquist.
I am only asking for your opinion and not some totally logical justification. I am just curious and will unlikely respond to your answer.

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.
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« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2012, 12:29:12 AM »

There are other threads on this subject, such as this one:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39719.0.html

Regarding the OP, Fr. Seraphim's comments regarding apostasy were mostly correct, though the situation was much more dire in his time than is the case at the present.  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's criticism of other jurisdictions and his respect of the Old Calendarists, St. Nikolai of Zica refused to pray with the fathers of Vatopedi Monastery on Mt. Athos when the monastery adopted the New Calendar for a time, and he provided chrism to the Old Calendarists in Greece who refused to accept the New Calendar despite the decision of the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece (this was before Old Calendarists developed into a competing Synod in Greece with its own bishops).  Regarding Fr. Seraphim's views of the Old Calendarists, if you read his Life, and particularly the book "Letters from Fr. Seraphim", you will see that he became increasingly critical of these groups as he beccame more experienced with the bitter fruits of their fanaticism and sectarianism.

If you have not read his "Life", including the final chapters regarding his blessed repose, his appearances after his repose, the accounts of those who have been healed through his intercessions; if you have not acquainted yourself with the veneration that Fr. Seraphim receives throughout the Orthodox world (Greece, Russia, Serbia,etc.); then it would be of benefit to familiarize yourself before trusting too much in your present opinion on this subject.
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2012, 02:05:14 AM »

Doesn't make a difference at all. This is not the Roman Catholic Church this is the Orthodox Church. Canonization is merely the Church's formal recognition of Sainthood.

How this is different from RCs?

He's too controversial in Orthodox circles IMO and that's why I don't see him being canonized.

I agree. some of Fr. Seraphim's teachings which remain of record are far too controversial to merit his "recognition" as a saint, the "toll houses" teaching which is outside the consensus of Orthodox Church teaching, is a leading reason that would preclude his "glorification."
Have you considered, then, de-glorifying St. Augustine of Hippo for the same reasons? (It seems that many already have.)

I'm not a big fan of the Blessed Augustine either, who was an early proponent of the false teaching that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and and the Son, contrary to scripture.

Source? I wonder whether his alleged Filioque could be considered as acceptable through St. Maximos' standards.
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2012, 08:29:43 AM »

Yes, there are many who truly venerate him & find inspiration in his teachings. There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2012, 01:34:16 PM »

There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.

But then again this is completely irrelevant to the discussion about canonization. We canonize people, not their opinions.
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2012, 01:48:22 PM »

There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.

But then again this is completely irrelevant to the discussion about canonization. We canonize people, not their opinions.

If that were entirely true, Origen would be a Saint, but he's not. It depends on how heretical and in error the opinion is.
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2012, 02:02:32 PM »

There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.

But then again this is completely irrelevant to the discussion about canonization. We canonize people, not their opinions.

If that were entirely true, Origen would be a Saint, but he's not. It depends on how heretical and in error the opinion is.

I thought that it was self-evident that we were talking about Orthodox Christians, not heretics. Having opinions does not make a heretic. Fr. Seraphim was not a heretic.
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 02:06:13 PM »

There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.

But then again this is completely irrelevant to the discussion about canonization. We canonize people, not their opinions.

If that were entirely true, Origen would be a Saint, but he's not. It depends on how heretical and in error the opinion is.

I thought that it was self-evident that we were talking about Orthodox Christians, not heretics. Having opinions does not make a heretic. Fr. Seraphim was not a heretic.

One could debate toll-houses in that realm. If you take toll houses too far, then I think it could become a heresy. The debate should be about if Fr. Seraphim took them that far. (I would say he didn't but it isn't for me to determine)

Iwould argue that if you take toll-houses as absolutely literal in its entirety, then it could be considered heresy. Or if you try to make toll houses a doctrine rather than a theological opinion. I think of it like young earth creationism. If you simply believe in young earth creationism as a private opinion, then that is okay. But if you try to insist that it is correct and has to be correct, then you are bordering on heresy (not to mention scientific idiocy). The same would go for evolution, if you insist theistic evolution has to be correct and is the only possibility and border on treating it like doctrine/dogma, then it could be heresy.
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 02:10:01 PM »

And then what?  Should we de-canonize any Saint who believes in them?  Anything that has not been set as dogma by an Ecumenical Council is nothing more than Theological Speculation, to some degree. 

There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.

But then again this is completely irrelevant to the discussion about canonization. We canonize people, not their opinions.

If that were entirely true, Origen would be a Saint, but he's not. It depends on how heretical and in error the opinion is.

I thought that it was self-evident that we were talking about Orthodox Christians, not heretics. Having opinions does not make a heretic. Fr. Seraphim was not a heretic.

One could debate toll-houses in that realm. If you take toll houses too far, then I think it could become a heresy. The debate should be about if Fr. Seraphim took them that far. (I would say he didn't but it isn't for me to determine)
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2012, 02:12:06 PM »

There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.

But then again this is completely irrelevant to the discussion about canonization. We canonize people, not their opinions.

If that were entirely true, Origen would be a Saint, but he's not. It depends on how heretical and in error the opinion is.
There are some of us who have serious concerns about some of  Fr Seraphim's teachings but believe he is a saint in the witness of his adherents. We also have concerns that a few of his adherents may want to dogmatize some of his speculations.
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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2012, 02:21:55 PM »

I think you have to understand the state of Russian Orthodoxy at the time to understand these comments. It was a complicated, apocalyptic time, for obvious reasons. To take these quotes out of historical context and judge them doesn't work, IMO. Fr Seraphim did moderate his views on some issues late in life.

But that's neither here nor there. His personal story is grounds enough for sainthood in my view. The Church needs to hold up high such contemporary and relatable examples of radical repentance in this dark world.

I could be wrong but there could be others besides myself that are totally clueless as to what you are writing about.

What was the complicated apocalyptic event or situation in the Russian Orthodox Church? How did Fr. Seraphim Rose solve this problem?

That is my main question, if you have time:
What is it about his life story that makes him a saint?
What sets him apart from Metropolitans Kallistos Ware or John Ziziulas or Fr. Peter Gilquist.
I am only asking for your opinion and not some totally logical justification. I am just curious and will unlikely respond to your answer.

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.

I like your posts lately Opus more than ever, be careful.

And to the bolded part:

He has reposed something only Fr. Peter has just recently done, if I recall correctly which is unlikely.

But ROCOR will have its Saint.

I think they might want to wait and see how his legacy pans out especially the fruit he planted.
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« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2012, 02:49:00 PM »


But ROCOR will have its Saint.


A growing number of folks have already canonized Fr. Seraphim.  We're just waiting for the rest to catch up.
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« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2012, 02:53:41 PM »


But ROCOR will have its Saint.


A growing number of folks have already canonized Fr. Seraphim.  We're just waiting for the rest to catch up.

Like I said about the most recent rush to canonize someone by the RCC, they might want to wait to see what comes to light.
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« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2012, 03:03:44 PM »


But ROCOR will have its Saint.


A growing number of folks have already canonized Fr. Seraphim.  We're just waiting for the rest to catch up.

Like I said about the most recent rush to canonize someone by the RCC, they might want to wait to see what comes to light.

What do you think is going to 'come up'?  You can read his thoughts and books as well as listen to his lectures.  After 30 years, anything that could come up already has.
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« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2012, 03:19:26 PM »

Also, it is up to ROCOR to canonize him  since he was under their jurisdiction.

My first thought as well, sort of. Actually, at this point in time I would think the start of the recognition would be the ROC-MP.
Otherwise, I have no opinion that I care to offer, sinner enough I am.
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« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2012, 03:52:44 PM »

A growing number of folks have already canonized Fr. Seraphim. 

Do you mean some living room synods?
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« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2012, 10:14:49 PM »

And then what?  Should we de-canonize any Saint who believes in them?  Anything that has not been set as dogma by an Ecumenical Council is nothing more than Theological Speculation, to some degree. 

There are those of us who do not identify with him and will remain vigilant towards tendencies that may want to render theological speculations as dogma.

But then again this is completely irrelevant to the discussion about canonization. We canonize people, not their opinions.

If that were entirely true, Origen would be a Saint, but he's not. It depends on how heretical and in error the opinion is.

I thought that it was self-evident that we were talking about Orthodox Christians, not heretics. Having opinions does not make a heretic. Fr. Seraphim was not a heretic.

One could debate toll-houses in that realm. If you take toll houses too far, then I think it could become a heresy. The debate should be about if Fr. Seraphim took them that far. (I would say he didn't but it isn't for me to determine)

No, saints are honored and recognized for specific reasons; not too many were perfect in every way.

In the Orthodox Church, there is an essential consensus of "Theological Opinion" on many theological matters, "Theologoumena," that are not church dogma.  But not all deviations from the church's consensus of  theological beliefs and thought, are necessarily heresy.

This is just a broad comment about the dogma and "theological opinions" of the Orthodox Church.  It is not meant to be a comment about any of Fr. Seraphim's specific teachings.
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« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2012, 11:04:43 PM »

What was the complicated apocalyptic event or situation in the Russian Orthodox Church? How did Fr. Seraphim Rose solve this problem?

The Soviet Union and all that. The Russian Church was overrun by communists, millions were dead, churches were destroyed. The Russian Church abroad (small A) was split several ways over differing views of the Russian hierarchy's legitimacy. The fall of the God-anointed Tsar and the Byzantine-style church-state relationship had a devastating effect on the Russian psyche. To contemporary Russians, it really seemed like the world and Church were falling apart and end times were approaching. St. John Maximovitch and others had these concerns and fears, and they unsurprisingly affected and inspired people like Fr. Seraphim to be the way they were. It was a serious time that produced serious men and women.

Fr. Seraphim didn't dream this all up in a vacuum, that's my point. He is a product of his time, just like we all are. Whatever extremes or liberties he took, I feel they are at least consistent and understandable given who his teachers were and what was happening in the Russian Church at the time.

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.

There is much to be hopeful about. But talk to any Russian Orthodox person who was alive during the Soviet period and they will have much darkness to tell you about. And there is plenty of darkness in this world today, and our Lord told us it would be very dark by the End.

Especially among young people, positive role models are needed. Given our culture's obsession with "relevance" in Christianity, among departed saints you don't get much more relevant than a guy who lived in the upheaval of the 60s and did just about every bad thing you can think of—and yet made a total repentance; who then threw his energy into teaching and ministering to the rejects of society who lived on the dark fringes.

We need more like Fr. Seraphim. We all know the Church does not make saints, but sainthood makes a special example of a person in the liturgical life of the Church. To have a holy priest who lived as recently as the 1980s—who overcame and did so much—up there on the iconostasis and in the Menaion is a powerful thing.

What is it about his life story that makes him a saint?

Eugene Rose's lifestyle before he became Fr. Seraphim has a lot of parallels to St. Augustine's lifestyle before his conversion. Both men's lives in general seem to have a lot of parallels—yes, even the questionable teachings. But that's not a dealbreaker with other saints, so it shouldn't be here either.

His battle against the passion of homosexuality is particularly striking, and unique (at least among contemporary saints). I can't think of any other saints who are known specifically for overcoming that passion. It would be nice to be able to point to a bona fide saint and show homosexual Orthodox people that they are not alone. We have patrons for every kind of sin, but not really for this one. For people who struggle with this passion it would be nice to be able to point to a saint who "finished the race," and importantly, who lived in our day and time.

What sets him apart from Metropolitans Kallistos Ware or John Ziziulas or Fr. Peter Gilquist.

I can't say anything bad about any of these men. Having met him a few years ago, I think Fr. Peter is certainly among the saints now.

But I think Fr. Seraphim stands apart because of the example his life can provide to people, the positive impact his work has and does have (especially outside the US, where he is far less controversial), and his cultus. He is widely venerated as a saint already, which is grounds for the Church to engage in the glorification process.

I don't think the tollhouses should be an important factor in his glorification one way or the other. We don't make or reject sainthood on the basis of one's Theology 101 exam. Call it theologumenon and move on. Sainthood is based on God's work manifested in a person's life, and no one can deny Fr. Seraphim's good fruit.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 11:15:55 PM by age234 » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2012, 12:55:02 AM »

What was the complicated apocalyptic event or situation in the Russian Orthodox Church? How did Fr. Seraphim Rose solve this problem?

The Soviet Union and all that. The Russian Church was overrun by communists, millions were dead, churches were destroyed. The Russian Church abroad (small A) was split several ways over differing views of the Russian hierarchy's legitimacy. The fall of the God-anointed Tsar and the Byzantine-style church-state relationship had a devastating effect on the Russian psyche. To contemporary Russians, it really seemed like the world and Church were falling apart and end times were approaching. St. John Maximovitch and others had these concerns and fears, and they unsurprisingly affected and inspired people like Fr. Seraphim to be the way they were. It was a serious time that produced serious men and women.

Fr. Seraphim didn't dream this all up in a vacuum, that's my point. He is a product of his time, just like we all are. Whatever extremes or liberties he took, I feel they are at least consistent and understandable given who his teachers were and what was happening in the Russian Church at the time.

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.

There is much to be hopeful about. But talk to any Russian Orthodox person who was alive during the Soviet period and they will have much darkness to tell you about. And there is plenty of darkness in this world today, and our Lord told us it would be very dark by the End.

Especially among young people, positive role models are needed. Given our culture's obsession with "relevance" in Christianity, among departed saints you don't get much more relevant than a guy who lived in the upheaval of the 60s and did just about every bad thing you can think of—and yet made a total repentance; who then threw his energy into teaching and ministering to the rejects of society who lived on the dark fringes.

We need more like Fr. Seraphim. We all know the Church does not make saints, but sainthood makes a special example of a person in the liturgical life of the Church. To have a holy priest who lived as recently as the 1980s—who overcame and did so much—up there on the iconostasis and in the Menaion is a powerful thing.

What is it about his life story that makes him a saint?

Eugene Rose's lifestyle before he became Fr. Seraphim has a lot of parallels to St. Augustine's lifestyle before his conversion. Both men's lives in general seem to have a lot of parallels—yes, even the questionable teachings. But that's not a dealbreaker with other saints, so it shouldn't be here either.

His battle against the passion of homosexuality is particularly striking, and unique (at least among contemporary saints). I can't think of any other saints who are known specifically for overcoming that passion. It would be nice to be able to point to a bona fide saint and show homosexual Orthodox people that they are not alone. We have patrons for every kind of sin, but not really for this one. For people who struggle with this passion it would be nice to be able to point to a saint who "finished the race," and importantly, who lived in our day and time.

What sets him apart from Metropolitans Kallistos Ware or John Ziziulas or Fr. Peter Gilquist.

I can't say anything bad about any of these men. Having met him a few years ago, I think Fr. Peter is certainly among the saints now.

But I think Fr. Seraphim stands apart because of the example his life can provide to people, the positive impact his work has and does have (especially outside the US, where he is far less controversial), and his cultus. He is widely venerated as a saint already, which is grounds for the Church to engage in the glorification process.

I don't think the tollhouses should be an important factor in his glorification one way or the other. We don't make or reject sainthood on the basis of one's Theology 101 exam. Call it theologumenon and move on. Sainthood is based on God's work manifested in a person's life, and no one can deny Fr. Seraphim's good fruit.

Thank you for going beyond what I asked for Age234. I understand much more clearly what you are referring to.

I am glad that you feel there is much to be hopeful about. No matter how much darkness surrounds me I cannot dwell on it because I fear it will result in my spiritual death. I confess that I do often dwell on the darkness but I fight it by remembering Holy Week and the meaning of Christ's resurrection, the light from the candle that I held and the words of St. John of Chrysostom's sermon. The war is over and we hold the light of that within us. This may seem simple minded and it probably is.
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« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2012, 12:56:50 AM »

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.
Yeah, sure.
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2012, 01:44:16 AM »

A growing number of folks have already canonized Fr. Seraphim. 

Do you mean some living room synods?

Almost all conservative Orthodox I have met
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« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2012, 01:46:23 AM »

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.

I want whatever you are drinking!  Cheesy
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« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2012, 01:49:19 AM »


But ROCOR will have its Saint.


A growing number of folks have already canonized Fr. Seraphim.  We're just waiting for the rest to catch up.


+1



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« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2012, 05:04:23 AM »

A growing number of folks have already canonized Fr. Seraphim. 

Do you mean some living room synods?

Almost all conservative Orthodox I have met

What an Earth is "conservative Orthodox"?
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« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2012, 08:54:14 AM »


Almost all conservative Orthodox I have met

What an Earth is "conservative Orthodox"?

If you have to ask, you are probably not capable of understanding the answer.
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« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2012, 09:10:56 AM »


Almost all conservative Orthodox I have met

What an Earth is "conservative Orthodox"?

If you have to ask, you are probably not capable of understanding the answer.

If there is such thing as "conservative Orthodox" augustin and stashko are the most conservative posters of OC.net.
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« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2012, 12:03:35 PM »

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.

I want whatever you are drinking!  Cheesy

Pour me one, too, please!
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« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2012, 01:09:32 PM »

I think this world is not dark. It is brighter than it has ever been.

I want whatever you are drinking!  Cheesy

Pour me one, too, please!


Achronos,  celticfan1888, stavros_388

I think I wrote about this before.

It is called Zinfandel.

For some it causes elation and hope.

For others it causes sorrow and despair.

One of these days I need to get you guys over for dinner.

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