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Author Topic: Psalm 22: Digging out the Messiah's hands and feet  (Read 672 times) Average Rating: 0
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rakovsky
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« on: September 03, 2012, 11:23:00 AM »

In Psalm 22:16 (Septuagint), it actually says "they dug (oruksan) my hands and feet", and the Dead Sea Scrolls appears most likely to say "dug" too. They say kaaru, which appears to be a form of the word karu (dug)

English and Russian Bibles translate this as "pierced". However, skeptics and rabbinical scholars point out that most rabbinical texts say "like a lion" (kaari), which is very close to kaaru. They also criticize the English and Russian Bibles for saying "pierced," when "karu" actually means "dug." They say it doesn't make sense to say that the person's hands were dug out, and that the other usages in the Bible talk about digging out wells and ditches.

However, today I found out that in ancient times one of the most common ways of digging was to use "digging sticks", which look like stakes and came before the use of hoes and shovels. The photo of one from Latin America I saw was curved like a nail and pointy at the end.

In fact, Numbers 21:18 says: "The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver, with their staves (plural of the word staff- a long stick)."

So it turns out that after all in ancient thinking it made sense to dig by piercing the ground with narrow pointy objects shaped like nails.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 11:23:21 AM by rakovsky » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 12:08:05 PM »

In Psalm 22:16 (Septuagint), it actually says "they dug (oruksan) my hands and feet", and the Dead Sea Scrolls appears most likely to say "dug" too. They say kaaru, which appears to be a form of the word karu (dug)

English and Russian Bibles translate this as "pierced". However, skeptics and rabbinical scholars point out that most rabbinical texts say "like a lion" (kaari), which is very close to kaaru. They also criticize the English and Russian Bibles for saying "pierced," when "karu" actually means "dug." They say it doesn't make sense to say that the person's hands were dug out, and that the other usages in the Bible talk about digging out wells and ditches.

However, today I found out that in ancient times one of the most common ways of digging was to use "digging sticks", which look like stakes and came before the use of hoes and shovels. The photo of one from Latin America I saw was curved like a nail and pointy at the end.

In fact, Numbers 21:18 says: "The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver, with their staves (plural of the word staff- a long stick)."

So it turns out that after all in ancient thinking it made sense to dig by piercing the ground with narrow pointy objects shaped like nails.
IIRC in Numbers or somewhere the Israelite soldier is told to have a stick as part of his standard equipment (to dig latrines).
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rakovsky
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« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 12:57:53 AM »

IIRC in Numbers or somewhere the Israelite soldier is told to have a stick as part of his standard equipment (to dig latrines).
Thanks for your input. Offhand, a Bible Gateway search of the Pentateuch didn't reveal anything like that about staffs or sticks. But I could expect what you are saying to be there.
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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 01:12:54 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In Psalm 22:16 (Septuagint), it actually says "they dug (oruksan) my hands and feet", and the Dead Sea Scrolls appears most likely to say "dug" too. They say kaaru, which appears to be a form of the word karu (dug)

English and Russian Bibles translate this as "pierced". However, skeptics and rabbinical scholars point out that most rabbinical texts say "like a lion" (kaari), which is very close to kaaru. They also criticize the English and Russian Bibles for saying "pierced," when "karu" actually means "dug." They say it doesn't make sense to say that the person's hands were dug out, and that the other usages in the Bible talk about digging out wells and ditches.

However, today I found out that in ancient times one of the most common ways of digging was to use "digging sticks", which look like stakes and came before the use of hoes and shovels. The photo of one from Latin America I saw was curved like a nail and pointy at the end.

In fact, Numbers 21:18 says: "The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver, with their staves (plural of the word staff- a long stick)."

So it turns out that after all in ancient thinking it made sense to dig by piercing the ground with narrow pointy objects shaped like nails.

Considering that in shedding His Blood (which was mixed with water as attested by the Apostles in the Gospels) through those wounds that it could be all the more poetic to etymologically connect the terms from the Psalter which are also connected with "digging wells" with Jesus Christ who is the well-spring of the Water of Life? One of the Ethiopian Crucifixion icons portrays the Angels with the Chalice beneath all of His wounds collecting the Blood.  I couldn't help but think of this imagery when I was reading the part in your post about "digging wells" in the context of the Gospel of John Chapter 4 Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 06:47:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In Psalm 22:16 (Septuagint), it actually says "they dug (oruksan) my hands and feet", and the Dead Sea Scrolls appears most likely to say "dug" too. They say kaaru, which appears to be a form of the word karu (dug)

English and Russian Bibles translate this as "pierced". However, skeptics and rabbinical scholars point out that most rabbinical texts say "like a lion" (kaari), which is very close to kaaru. They also criticize the English and Russian Bibles for saying "pierced," when "karu" actually means "dug." They say it doesn't make sense to say that the person's hands were dug out, and that the other usages in the Bible talk about digging out wells and ditches.

However, today I found out that in ancient times one of the most common ways of digging was to use "digging sticks", which look like stakes and came before the use of hoes and shovels. The photo of one from Latin America I saw was curved like a nail and pointy at the end.

In fact, Numbers 21:18 says: "The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver, with their staves (plural of the word staff- a long stick)."

So it turns out that after all in ancient thinking it made sense to dig by piercing the ground with narrow pointy objects shaped like nails.

Considering that in shedding His Blood (which was mixed with water as attested by the Apostles in the Gospels) through those wounds that it could be all the more poetic to etymologically connect the terms from the Psalter which are also connected with "digging wells" with Jesus Christ who is the well-spring of the Water of Life? One of the Ethiopian Crucifixion icons portrays the Angels with the Chalice beneath all of His wounds collecting the Blood.  I couldn't help but think of this imagery when I was reading the part in your post about "digging wells" in the context of the Gospel of John Chapter 4 Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
What you are saying makes sense and is good input. It does indeed match the idea of digging a well. Admittedly, digging need not only mean digging a well, as the same Hebrew verb is also used for digging out a tomb chamber out of the ground.

In other words, it doesn't necessarily mean a well was being dug, just "they dug my arms and feet", and a common tool used to dig from that era is pointy sticks. It's typical too that people dug wells, but it seems less frequent than the use of digging sticks, since there are lots of other things someone can dig.

Nonetheless, the image you gave does make sense- I mean, when you dig that way into someone's arm, that's what happens.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:49:38 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 11:27:00 PM »

Has anyone researched into the Nachal Hever scrolls which has psalm 22:16 ?
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 11:41:16 PM »

Has anyone researched into the Nachal Hever scrolls which has psalm 22:16 ?
Me.

As I said in a previous post here: "the Dead Sea Scrolls appears most likely to say "dug" too. They say kaaru, which appears to be a form of the word karu (dug)"

If you want to get into this question deeper, the issue at stake about the Dead Sea scrolls is whether "ka'aru" in the Dead sea Scrolls really is just a different way of writing "karu" (dug).

One article goes into depth explaining how this can be the same word:
Quote
The strength of the anti-missionary argument against the Dead Sea Scroll reading of pierced arrives in the point that the word contains an aleph, which according to Sigal, "is not part of the root." Dr. James D. Price, professor of Hebrew and the Old Testament at the Temple Baptist Seminary, however, states:

    "Sigal gave the impression that the presence of the Aleph in the word "ka'aru" prevented it from being derived from a Hebrew root which has no Aleph. But the words "ka'aru" and "karu" being variant forms of the same verb (as explained by the lexicographers) is demonstrated by the following Hebrew words that have the same kind of middle Aleph and the same kind of relationship: bo'r, bor (pit, cistern) from the verb bur (dig); da'g, dag (fish) from the verb dug (fish for); la't, lat (secrecy) from the verb lut (be secret); m'um, mum (blemish); n'od, nod (skin); q'am, qam (he arose); ra'sh, rash (poor) from the verb rush (be poor); sh'at (contempt) from the verb shut (treat with contempt); also in Aramaic, da'er (dweller) from the verb dur (dwell); and qa'em (riser) from the verb qum (he arose). These examples are sufficient to demonstrate that a middle Aleph frequently occurs in words and forms derived from middle Waw verbs as in this passage. His argument is convincing only to those who know little or nothing about Hebrew."

http://messianicart.com/chazak/yeshua/psalm22.htm

My difficulty in understanding this author's explanation (above), however, is that "ka'aru" and "karu" look different to me than things like "bo'r" and "bor". What I don't get about that this author's explanation is that the many examples he gives add in an extra apostrophe ' . But when it comes to the word "karu" the author writes in not just an ' but an a too.

In other words, when you see bor ------>  bo'r you might expect to see karu -----> ka'ru.

I don't get why the author here writes his examples this way, and on top of that I don't even know what verses he is pointing to that have these supposed variant spellings. Maybe if I could see in Hebrew the examples he is talking about I would know what he means. Maybe he is actually just making a mispelling when he gives his examples.

I mean, in Hebrew it looks pretty simple. Normally it is written K R U -----> K A R U
The first A is unwritten (K R U , pronounced karu). The author is claiming that an extra A just gets thrown in there to make it K A R U (pronounced ka'aru).

So then why doesn't he write bo'r phonetically as bo'or when he throws in the extra sound or letter?

I still think the author is write and it's a variant spelling, I just don't strongly "get" the way he is writing it and what exactly he is giving as his examples.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 12:13:22 AM »

I still think the author is write
Yes, he is doing alot of that. Smiley

Sorry, I was Russian when I made my last post.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 12:13:43 AM by rakovsky » Logged
rakovsky
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 01:03:59 AM »

I want to bring something I think is neat to your attention. I was looking at the Matins for our Orthodox Good Friday service and noticed that right before Matthew 27 is read, Psalm 22:1 and 18 are read in reverse order.

Looking at Matthew 27, I realized why- and the writers of the Matins must have too. In Matthew 27, the order in which the passion is laid out runs in the opposite order of Psalm 22. With this in mind, one can see for example that certain elements of Matthew 27 line up with elements in Psalm 22. For example, keeping this order in mind, the soldiers "looking" at Christ lines up with the "looking" at the sufferer in Psalm 22. The counting of the bones in Psalm 22 lines up with "Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews", perhaps the "bones" that made up Jesus' identity!

I am sure the gospel writer saw this as well.
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 07:52:17 AM »

Thanks for that it is very informative, I have read certain Messianic sites which talk about Psalm 22:16 and I've also read Judaisms point of view - Is there an online site which has authentic copies of this scroll specially that verse ? Thanks for that link its very good looks at Singers view
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:54:12 AM by psalm110 » Logged
rakovsky
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 12:44:04 PM »

Thanks for that it is very informative, I have read certain Messianic sites which talk about Psalm 22:16 and I've also read Judaisms point of view - Is there an online site which has authentic copies of this scroll specially that verse ? Thanks for that link its very good looks at Singers view
Psalm 110,

Check on my website http://rakovskii.livejournal.com under the section devoted to Psalm 22 I think I have a photo of the section from the scroll.

Please let me know if you have any ideas about how to answer the above. Nice talking with you, and I am glad to share ideas.
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