Author Topic: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC  (Read 333 times)

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Offline KostaC

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Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« on: September 10, 2016, 01:24:36 AM »
After three years of searching for a two decade old translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in the Irish language, I finally have a copy coming my way. The person who maintains the UGCC in Ireland offered to mail me a copy free of charge. I am in awe of their generosity.

Now begins my step two. There are obviously differences between what particular translation the UGCC uses (to have gone from Church Slavonic to English to Irish) from anything I'm used to, so I'm slightly worried about there being anything in their liturgy that might be problematic for we Orthodox Christians. The biggest one I can think of is either removing the commemoration of the Pope wholesale or having it reworded to fit the commemorations of the local bishops and hierarchs. That's pretty easy, because I have a friend who can translate from one of our English translations to rectify any issues with that.

Are there any other differences that I should have rectified? Is there any other phrase added into their liturgy that we would find problematic that I would need removed or retranslated? I found four references to the commemoration of the Pope in an online English translation of the UGCC's DL, but after a quick skim, I didn't see anything we would object to: no reference to the souls in purgatory, nothing about the sacred heart of Jesus, etc.

Are our liturgical translations, save for papal commemorations, identical?
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

"Bendito seja o que vem em nome do Senhor, o Senhor é Deus e se manifestou a nós."

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2016, 02:34:59 AM »
I'm curious-why Irish?
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Offline mike

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2016, 05:36:09 AM »
Depends what Church you are going it to use in. Greek Catholic Liturgy may fit with UOC-USA/D Liturgies or EP in general (as they are abridged as theirs, IIRC) but there may be minor changes with Russian practice for example.
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Offline KostaC

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2016, 12:13:05 PM »
I'm curious-why Irish?

Because I have some Irish ancestry (my Father is not Greek) and I think that the language should be preserved. I'll probably never hear the Divine Liturgy celebrated in Irish (maybe I'll hear it celebrated in Ireland someday). For now, all I can hope for is to be able to read it, and one lone Ukrainian Catholic Christian in Ireland was kind enough to oblige me in that.

Depends what Church you are going it to use in. Greek Catholic Liturgy may fit with UOC-USA/D Liturgies or EP in general (as they are abridged as theirs, IIRC) but there may be minor changes with Russian practice for example.

Thank you. I personally am more comfortable with the Greek usage, so I'll compare it to our order of the liturgy. This might come as a book with side-by-side Church Slavonic (not Ukrainian, although I've heard in Ukraine that they use modern Ukrainian in the liturgy) or English, or as a mololingual photo copy of a book on computer paper stapled together. If it's the former, then it'll make it easier for me to scan over for anything specifically Catholic. Is there anything else you think I need to know of other than papal commemorations?

Unfortunately, I doubt that any church will ever use it, or any Church will approve the translation. I'm just one lone layman who's just building off of the endeavor of a Russo-Catholic priest. As of now, there is no Irish translation of the Divine Liturgy used in any Orthodox parish in Ireland (as far as I can tell but I did call multiple parishes in Dublin and Belfast and never got an answer). My dream someday is to have this copy made into a small book, but that's a long way away because I don't have the funds for that. The least I can do is photocopy my abridged copy of the Ukrainian translation and mail it to the offices of the diocese in Ireland. If they can use it, great, if not, I still have it preserved for myself.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 12:13:47 PM by KostaC »
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

"Bendito seja o que vem em nome do Senhor, o Senhor é Deus e se manifestou a nós."

Offline mike

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2016, 12:51:36 PM »
Do you speak Irish?
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2016, 12:55:34 PM »
Do you speak Irish?

I was there this summer. Less than 10% of the Irish speak Irish.

Offline Diego

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2016, 01:08:41 PM »
Do you speak Irish?

I was there this summer. Less than 10% of the Irish speak Irish.

Wow. Less than 10%? I thought it was more than that, given that it is an official language along with English, and is given equal status in all government transactions and so-forth, and they study it in the schools. I know it was a minority still, but not THAT much of a minority!

I know the Church of Ireland (Anglican Communion) uses the Book of Common Prayer in Irish as well as in English. But they obviously only represent a fraction of the population of Ireland, even though they hold a large portion of the historic Churches and Cathedrals still, from what I am given to understand. I would love to get a BCP in Irish. I think it would be, well, interesting.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 12:22:19 AM »
Do you speak Irish?

I was there this summer. Less than 10% of the Irish speak Irish.

Wow. Less than 10%? I thought it was more than that, given that it is an official language along with English, and is given equal status in all government transactions and so-forth, and they study it in the schools. I know it was a minority still, but not THAT much of a minority!

I know the Church of Ireland (Anglican Communion) uses the Book of Common Prayer in Irish as well as in English. But they obviously only represent a fraction of the population of Ireland, even though they hold a large portion of the historic Churches and Cathedrals still, from what I am given to understand. I would love to get a BCP in Irish. I think it would be, well, interesting.
Like this?
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Ireland/Gaelic.htm
http://ireland.anglican.org/worship/12
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Diego

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2016, 12:33:58 AM »
Yes. Like that. But in print. But that is better than nothing. I shall download it to my computer tomorrow. Thank you. Peace, Diego+

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2016, 12:42:17 AM »
Yes. Like that. But in print. But that is better than nothing. I shall download it to my computer tomorrow. Thank you. Peace, Diego+
here's another
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Ireland/Gaelic.pdf
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Commander Xenophon

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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2016, 03:53:31 PM »
The short answer is "no"; theres nothing in there other than the commemorations of the Pope that would cause a problem.  But he is commemorated in more places than you might expect.

Google the Metropolitan Cantor's Institute, thats the Ruthenian Greek Catholics, and they have the texts for the services which I believe are broadly the same as the UGCC.

Also, you can download on iTunes Roman Hurko's Liturgy no. 3 which is in English, although that would not help with priest's prayers.

I do think having the Divine Liturgy in Gaelic would be a beautiful homage to the origins of Irish monasticism; actually, I would go for the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil or use Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus setting of the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, because these are probably closer to what the Egyptian monks who established the Irish monastic tradition beought with them, before converting to the Latin Rite in various ancient forms.

Fr. Aidan Keller had a "Western Rite Ready" version of the Stowe Missal on his Occidentalis website, which you can access through the Internet Archive.

You might also send him an e-mail as he is the most knowledgeable person I know of when it comes to unusual translations of the liturgy, for example, his site hosted a Latin translation of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Galgolithic Mass (Roman Rite mass in Church Slavonic, used in parts of Croatia until Vatican II).
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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2016, 07:45:23 PM »
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Re: Translation Question on the Divine Liturgy of St. J in the UGCC
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2016, 10:42:34 PM »
The short answer is "no"; theres nothing in there other than the commemorations of the Pope that would cause a problem.  But he is commemorated in more places than you might expect.
It depends.  The Melkites commemorate him once, in the Diptychs.  Ruthenians and Ukrainians commemorate him in the Great Litany, the Insistent Litany, the Great Entrance and Diptychs.
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