OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 23, 2014, 03:36:26 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?  (Read 4837 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2012, 08:32:01 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:34:35 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

Forgive my sins.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,440



« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2012, 08:50:21 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:50:57 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2012, 08:56:11 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.

my gosh!!! forgive me Achronos, but I will read this as if it was said to me, and I have to say it is one of the most beautiful things I have read. its as humbling and as joyful as reading the book of Job and hearing the Lord's argument. GBU! Cavaradossi, certainly If I could know God perfectly there is no need to worship any other but me myself. but as it stands I can not even know myself as He knows me let alone know Him as He IS. your beautiful words above speak of His Glory and It is Infinite! How wonderful!!!
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2012, 09:05:02 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".
Yes.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2012, 09:06:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does
. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.

Thank for providing some grounded reason on this thread.

Unfortunately some folks will always hide behind the apron strings of their inherited prejudices because its easier to push away than to come together.  Further, its like Alexander Dumas wrote in One Thousand and One Ghosts, "Those who can not build take pride in destroying."  We must build communities through Christian love, and build or Church through hospitable and merciful invitations, rather than the centrifugal forces of crude insinuations and antagonist theology.

Lord have His mercy.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2012, 09:08:08 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

Your own writing is fraught with such thinking.

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".

So what do you mean then, by 'worship the same concept of God'? That implies that we worship a concept of God, which we most certainly don't. Again, if we really are going to get into this, it would perhaps be helpful to see what you believe in terms of 'knowing' something, and whether things can be experienced before understanding them.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:10:34 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2012, 09:08:26 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

Nobody is talking about an exhaustive account of the Trinity.

Modern day rabbinic jews do not worship the Trinity which IMHO is pretty essential to what was referred in the OP as "the one true God".

That's all it is.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #97 on: September 02, 2012, 09:09:38 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:13:00 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #98 on: September 02, 2012, 09:12:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does
. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.

Thank for providing some grounded reason on this thread.

Unfortunately some folks will always hide behind the apron strings of their inherited prejudices because its easier to push away than to come together.  Further, its like Alexander Dumas wrote in One Thousand and One Ghosts, "Those who can not build take pride in destroying."  We must build communities through Christian love, and build or Church through hospitable and merciful invitations, rather than the centrifugal forces of crude insinuations and antagonist theology.

Lord have His mercy.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Well since I worship Zeus now it really doesn't matter what my identification of God is, you know it'll get to the right God eventually.

Or else I'll get struck by a lightning bolt.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #99 on: September 02, 2012, 09:12:18 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.
Logged

Forgive my sins.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,046


« Reply #100 on: September 02, 2012, 09:13:44 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

"tasbeha.org'd" is an appropriate tag for many threads. Also: hilarious. Cheesy
Logged

Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #101 on: September 02, 2012, 09:14:05 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

Nobody is talking about an exhaustive account of the Trinity.

Modern day rabbinic jews do not worship the Trinity which IMHO is pretty essential to what was referred in the OP as "the one true God".

That's all it is.

But I could turn that argument around on you. Suppose that I found fault with your understanding of the Trinity. Would I then be justified to say that when you invoke the name of the Father, and of the Son  and of the Holy Spirit, that you are only uttering empty words which refer to nothing, since you do not understand them correctly? Are you confident enough to say that you understand the Trinity in such a fashion that your understanding could be found to be without error under scrutiny?
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2012, 09:15:36 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

Your own writing is fraught with such thinking.

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".

So what do you mean then, by 'worship the same concept of God'? That implies that we worship a concept of God, which we most certainly don't. Again, if we really are going to get into this, it would perhaps be helpful to see what you believe in terms of 'knowing' something, and whether things can be experienced before understanding them.

English is my second language...geez. Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.
Logged

Forgive my sins.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #103 on: September 02, 2012, 09:15:57 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2012, 09:17:20 PM »

All we said is Trinitarians are different in their understanding of God than non-Trinitarians, and we get a bunch of know-it-alls trying to say that is a "concept". Are you people that bored? Or are you so bull headed you jump on a mis-typed phrase?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:18:44 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

Forgive my sins.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #105 on: September 02, 2012, 09:17:37 PM »

Is the one true God the Trinity or God the Father?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2012, 09:18:00 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

Well if you turn to Hiwot's translation of the Book of Job and perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of understanding. What do you know of understanding more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the word is begotten or how the writing proceeds? Can you tell me how the interpretation is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Trinderstanding? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the word is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Writer so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic understanding, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know understanding imperfectly. What? Do you know understand perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of its interpretations, their words, their writings upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the pen, or perhaps you can tell me how the ink becomes the body of our udnerstanding during the Book. The Author Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about understanding, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of understanding is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of understanding is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true understanding on account of his imperfect understanding of understanding, when your very own understanding of understanding is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #107 on: September 02, 2012, 09:18:51 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #108 on: September 02, 2012, 09:20:41 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.

What about pagans?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #109 on: September 02, 2012, 09:20:58 PM »

Is the one true God the Trinity or God the Father?

Orthodox doctrine holds that God's unity or oneness is also not merely the mathematical or philosophical concept of "one". The Church teaches God as the Trinity. One God, three persons, Father, Son, And Holy Spirit, each of whom ‘dwells' in the other two, by virtue of a perpetual movement of love. God is not only a unity but a union.
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #110 on: September 02, 2012, 09:21:33 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

Sorry for betraying you Zeus, I'll make my offering to you once I bribe Hades.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #111 on: September 02, 2012, 09:24:00 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.

What about pagans?

No. They do not worship the God Who revealed Himself in time through the patriarchs and prophets.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #112 on: September 02, 2012, 09:24:50 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

Well if you turn to Hiwot's translation of the Book of Job and perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of understanding. What do you know of understanding more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the word is begotten or how the writing proceeds? Can you tell me how the interpretation is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Trinderstanding? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the word is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Writer so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic understanding, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know understanding imperfectly. What? Do you know understand perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of its interpretations, their words, their writings upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the pen, or perhaps you can tell me how the ink becomes the body of our udnerstanding during the Book. The Author Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about understanding, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of understanding is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of understanding is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true understanding on account of his imperfect understanding of understanding, when your very own understanding of understanding is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.

LOL! cheers! laugh
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #113 on: September 02, 2012, 09:25:29 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.


English is my second language...geez. Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.

I don't meant what I wrote, I meant something else, my english just came out that way.

Forgive the foreigner, massa'. I never meant to say what you accused me of, it was a bad use of words, I've told you that. You keep proving you are arrogant by not accepting that and ending it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:28:09 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

Forgive my sins.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #114 on: September 02, 2012, 09:26:35 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
That forum has been a disaster since as long as I can remember. Things have only gotten worse now that Fr. Peter has left (not that I can blame him). The posters there are (with all possible respect) ignorant and argumentative. The moderation on that forum is horrible now and you will be hard pressed to find any thread which is not completely permeated by invective and bickering.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #115 on: September 02, 2012, 09:27:13 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
That forum has been a disaster since as long as I can remember. Things have only gotten worse now that Fr. Peter has left (not that I can blame him). The posters there are (with all possible respect) ignorant and argumentative. The moderation on that forum is horrible now and you will be hard pressed to find any thread which is not completely permeated by invective and bickering.
How is that any different than here?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:27:22 PM by Achronos » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #116 on: September 02, 2012, 09:28:32 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
That forum has been a disaster since as long as I can remember. Things have only gotten worse now that Fr. Peter has left (not that I can blame him). The posters there are (with all possible respect) ignorant and argumentative. The moderation on that forum is horrible now and you will be hard pressed to find any thread which is not completely permeated by invective and bickering.
How is that any different than here?

+1
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #117 on: September 02, 2012, 09:28:41 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

No, that is incorrect. Heretics are so called because they have made the choice to understand God incorrectly, not because they can be shown to direct their worship at a different thing entirely. Perhaps if you were not so confused as to whether something can be experienced prior to understanding that thing (as the Fathers taught), you would not be having this problem.

Sorry for betraying you Zeus, I'll make my offering to you once I bribe Hades.

Still haven't abandoned your childishness, I see.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #118 on: September 02, 2012, 09:38:08 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #119 on: September 02, 2012, 09:40:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does
. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.

Thank for providing some grounded reason on this thread.

Unfortunately some folks will always hide behind the apron strings of their inherited prejudices because its easier to push away than to come together.  Further, its like Alexander Dumas wrote in One Thousand and One Ghosts, "Those who can not build take pride in destroying."  We must build communities through Christian love, and build or Church through hospitable and merciful invitations, rather than the centrifugal forces of crude insinuations and antagonist theology.

Lord have His mercy.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Well since I worship Zeus now it really doesn't matter what my identification of God is, you know it'll get to the right God eventually.

Or else I'll get struck by a lightning bolt.

you mean the church must have a way of filtering the reveled Truth from falsehood, like rejecting the so called 'orthodoxy' of every other new age hippie who claims to be orthodox christian while he/she lights a candle before Krishna? whatever do you mean?! its an outrage! we should be more welcoming to all sorts of heresies out there and endorse them in the name of Christian love. angel and sing kumbayah.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #120 on: September 02, 2012, 09:43:00 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol
I actually never guessed from reading your posts that you spoke English a 2nd language. I only find out just now.
Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #121 on: September 02, 2012, 09:46:12 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:47:02 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #122 on: September 02, 2012, 09:46:24 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

No, that is incorrect. Heretics are so called because they have made the choice to understand God incorrectly, not because they can be shown to direct their worship at a different thing entirely. Perhaps if you were not so confused as to whether something can be experienced prior to understanding that thing (as the Fathers taught), you would not be having this problem.
But Muslims and Jews worship a different God than we do. It's that simple.

Quote
Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #123 on: September 02, 2012, 09:48:02 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.

But considering Jesus Christ is God and since Jews, even indirectly, reject that then no they don't worship the same God. That goes for Muslims as well.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:48:10 PM by Achronos » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #124 on: September 02, 2012, 09:55:06 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

No, that is incorrect. Heretics are so called because they have made the choice to understand God incorrectly, not because they can be shown to direct their worship at a different thing entirely. Perhaps if you were not so confused as to whether something can be experienced prior to understanding that thing (as the Fathers taught), you would not be having this problem.
But Muslims and Jews worship a different God than we do. It's that simple.

Quote
Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.

No, it really is not that simple. Adam and Eve worshipped the Trinity without understanding it, as did all of the prophets and patriarchs. We in fact worship the Trinity without understanding it (all we can claim is that we understand it better than they do). The object of the Jews' worship has remained the same, but they have not come to know Him in truth.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #125 on: September 02, 2012, 09:57:39 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.

But considering Jesus Christ is God and since Jews, even indirectly, reject that then no they don't worship the same God. That goes for Muslims as well.

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2012, 09:58:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

About this whole Muslims and Jews thing..


I will reiterate only once more the point I made twice before.  Perhaps we would be best to distinguish between worship and Salvation? How does worshiping God automatically equate with Salvation exactly? Further, how can folks come into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ as God if they've had not prior relationship with God to speak of? Did converts to the Church somehow NOT worship God before coming to the Church? And if it is God who these feel brought them into the Church, and yet folks are accusing them of essentially worshiping either nothing at best, and the Devil at worst, are you then suggesting that the Devil would lead people to the Church?

In my opinion, we can say that anyone of any religion outside of the Church, even folks of "no religion" could be still able to worship or experience God, however, this should not be confused with Salvation through the forgiveness of Sins and the gift of Eternal Life which is found exclusively in the Church.  I would myself prefer not to speculate about the validity of any other person's relationship or lack there of with God, because I can't speak on God's part in that, I can't know where He actually stands on the matter.  I can only pray about my own sins and hope for the best about those of others.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:58:35 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #127 on: September 03, 2012, 02:21:33 AM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol
I actually never guessed from reading your posts that you spoke English a 2nd language. I only find out just now.

Yep, I'm Norse. Tongue
Logged

Forgive my sins.
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #128 on: September 03, 2012, 02:22:34 AM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.

To an extant I agree with you. But where do you draw the line? That is the question.  Wink
Logged

Forgive my sins.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #129 on: September 03, 2012, 02:53:59 AM »

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.

I think this is an excellent argument, but how does it square with your previous comment:
If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

I thought this indicated that it was impossible for us to make proclamations, due to not knowing God perfectly and what, if any, lines to draw.  But you appear to have drawn one.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #130 on: September 03, 2012, 03:21:20 AM »

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.

I think this is an excellent argument, but how does it square with your previous comment:
If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

I thought this indicated that it was impossible for us to make proclamations, due to not knowing God perfectly and what, if any, lines to draw.  But you appear to have drawn one.

I don't really see how so. I never drew any real cut off point. It is entirely possible that those who know nothing of Christ could still worship God in ignorance, but without ever being able to name Him or gain any understanding of Him. The only thing that I denied (perhaps somewhat too hastily and without enough qualification) is that pagans worship God, because in their case, they normally worship idols—deities fashioned after created things, such as the sun and the moon—although under extraordinary circumstances, pagans may come to worship some sort of transcendent or unknown deity, at which point they might be said to worship God in ignorance as well. St. Paul, being ever clever, manages to play upon this idea in his sermon upon the Areopagus.

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Now to be clear, I'm not arguing that it is impossible to distinguish between God and idols or created things. We know clearly that sun, moon and thunder deities are not God. But in discussing Islam, Judaism and Christianity, we are dealing then with religions which recognize some supreme being (in fact, a supreme being which is associated with causing the same set of historical events) Who is not merely some idol. That is where the line gets blurry. If we say that the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' (whatever that means) is the only true God, then why must we stop there? People understand the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' differently. This standard is inadmissible, because then it would mean that everybody has a different God, since nobody understands God in the same way; and then, at best, only one person would worship the true God, if that many. But once we admit any shades of grey, then we have to admit for consistency that proposing any sort of cut off line is a rather unjustifiable proposition, in my honest opinion.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 03:40:24 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #131 on: September 03, 2012, 03:29:43 AM »



This has nothing to do with the Jews or Muslims worshiping the same God in darkness. Both, even indirectly, reject Jesus Christ as God thus worshiping a different god than us and furthermore not the "One True God" that the OP points out.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere and there is, it's Jesus Christ.

You're seriously going to tell me that those that actually do reject Jesus Christ as God still worship the same God? You're just wrong.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2012, 03:32:17 AM »

It is entirely possible that those who know nothing of Christ could still worship and somehow know of God in ignorance, but without ever being able to name Him or understand Him.
I have no issue with this. But again we are talking about Jews and Muslims here, if we want to get specific lets go back to "modern-day Rabbinic Jews" that Severian mentioned.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,552



« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2012, 11:30:10 AM »



This has nothing to do with the Jews or Muslims worshiping the same God in darkness. Both, even indirectly, reject Jesus Christ as God thus worshiping a different god than us and furthermore not the "One True God" that the OP points out.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere and there is, it's Jesus Christ.

You're seriously going to tell me that those that actually do reject Jesus Christ as God still worship the same God? You're just wrong.

Yeah, ok, you go enjoy your God whose ontology is determined by what people think of him. Even the example from John 4 clearly shows that you are wrong, because the Samaritans, who rejected God's command to worship in Jerusalem, were still said to worship God without knowing Him. This is even moreso the case with the Jews, who have rejected the great work which God has wrought on the cross. They, like the Samaritans, worship God while actively rejecting his continued revelation.

When you can come up with any argument that doesn't involve saying the same thing over and over ad nauseam, with your head planted firmly in the sand and some other organ at the terminal end of your digestive tract doing the taking, let me know. (Perhaps a response to Keble's fine post on page 2 of this thread would be a good start).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 11:51:44 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #134 on: September 03, 2012, 08:02:02 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Tags: Tasbeha.org'd nadir 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.211 seconds with 71 queries.