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Author Topic: Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?  (Read 4967 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2012, 06:07:37 PM »

NVM!


Have you tried to preview your posts beforehand? Use that to see if you really want to post what you just wrote.

That way you won't leave the rest of us wondering what you said Tongue.
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« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2012, 06:20:42 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.

You are right, it is. Probably because it has no definitive final answer, only pious and not-so-pious opinions.
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« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2012, 06:23:08 PM »

NVM!


Have you tried to preview your posts beforehand? Use that to see if you really want to post what you just wrote.

That way you won't leave the rest of us wondering what you said Tongue.
Good idea. Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2012, 06:41:48 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.

You are right, it is. Probably because it has no definitive final answer, only pious and not-so-pious opinions.
I forgot, it's a mystery
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« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2012, 06:43:35 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.

You are right, it is. Probably because it has no definitive final answer, only pious and not-so-pious opinions.
I forgot, it's a mystery

There now is an example of an opinion - you can decide which of the two types it is.
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2012, 07:12:51 PM »

I know I disagree with most, and may be I'm completely wrong, but I think we're being unfair when we accuse Jews and Muslims of worshiping idols or demons rather than the One True God.

The religion of Israel and the religion of the Church, the new Israel today, are not two different religions, but one, the true religion. In the NT we know more of the truth than was revealed in the OT, but when we go to heaven we will know more still, but that doesn't mean we'll have converted to a new religion. We follow the same continuous tradition of our father Abraham, though the full revelation has since been given to us.

Modern day Jews have departed from this tradition. We are the continuation of it, not them. We continue in the worship of the Temple, through its fulfillment in our participation in the heavenly Liturgy of which it was a shadow. Modern day Jews are not the continuation of the Old Covenant. They departed from it and do not have sacrifice any more, so they don't follow the Old Covenant. They are very much analogous to Protestants, both of whom either reject or have lost the Liturgy, and have become "people of the Book".

That said, being in the wrong tradition, and not having the full understanding does not mean worshipping a different God.

Abraham did not know the mystery of the Trinity as fully as we do, yet he surely worshipped the true God. More of the truth was revealed to us when Christ came, and those who rejected that truth were wrong. But they didn't change who they worship. They just believe wrongly about Him. They rejected knowing more of Him. They worship Him ignorantly, but still the worship the One God.

Later Muslims rejected the same things the Jews rejected initially. They understand God wrongly, but I don't believe that that means their prayers and worship is not directed towards Him. If they follow violence and sensuality then perhaps they are following an idol, but if they pursue virtue and goodness, then they have a very  wrong knowledge of God, but it is still Him they are seeking.

That doesn't mean they don't need Christ, that they don't need the Church, that they don't need Baptism and the Mysteries. They have rejected the New Covenant, and they do not have the Old. They are estranged from God. Their attempts to worship Him and follow Him are wrong. How He will deal with them I don't know. But when I see a good person seeking God, I can't believe that is an idol or a demon, and not a sliver of the truth of the One God that they are directed towards.
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2012, 09:05:12 PM »

I know I disagree with most, and may be I'm completely wrong, but I think we're being unfair when we accuse Jews and Muslims of worshiping idols or demons rather than the One True God.

The religion of Israel and the religion of the Church, the new Israel today, are not two different religions, but one, the true religion. In the NT we know more of the truth than was revealed in the OT, but when we go to heaven we will know more still, but that doesn't mean we'll have converted to a new religion. We follow the same continuous tradition of our father Abraham, though the full revelation has since been given to us.

Modern day Jews have departed from this tradition. We are the continuation of it, not them. We continue in the worship of the Temple, through its fulfillment in our participation in the heavenly Liturgy of which it was a shadow. Modern day Jews are not the continuation of the Old Covenant. They departed from it and do not have sacrifice any more, so they don't follow the Old Covenant. They are very much analogous to Protestants, both of whom either reject or have lost the Liturgy, and have become "people of the Book".

That said, being in the wrong tradition, and not having the full understanding does not mean worshipping a different God.

Abraham did not know the mystery of the Trinity as fully as we do, yet he surely worshipped the true God. More of the truth was revealed to us when Christ came, and those who rejected that truth were wrong. But they didn't change who they worship. They just believe wrongly about Him. They rejected knowing more of Him. They worship Him ignorantly, but still the worship the One God.

Later Muslims rejected the same things the Jews rejected initially. They understand God wrongly, but I don't believe that that means their prayers and worship is not directed towards Him. If they follow violence and sensuality then perhaps they are following an idol, but if they pursue virtue and goodness, then they have a very  wrong knowledge of God, but it is still Him they are seeking.

That doesn't mean they don't need Christ, that they don't need the Church, that they don't need Baptism and the Mysteries. They have rejected the New Covenant, and they do not have the Old. They are estranged from God. Their attempts to worship Him and follow Him are wrong. How He will deal with them I don't know. But when I see a good person seeking God, I can't believe that is an idol or a demon, and not a sliver of the truth of the One God that they are directed towards.

I agree with this.

 I am always trying to tell all , whether it is my Greek Priest who says I should not have taken communion when i stood up in friends weddings, privately he understands my reasoning, but officially he has to follow doctrine, I understand and I also forgive them as they know not what they do, just as I need forgiveness for my trespasses.

The lord taught that we should love others MORE than ourselves.

This leads also to what the story of the pharisee and the tax collector was about.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


We therefore are told to humble ourselves and not act as if we know better.Let God do the Judging.
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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2012, 09:21:25 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2012, 09:23:50 PM »

I really regret creating this thread.

Sorry guys.
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« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2012, 09:28:00 PM »

I really regret creating this thread.

Sorry guys.

It's okay Severian, you didn't do it.
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« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2012, 09:29:43 PM »

I really regret creating this thread.

Sorry guys.

It's okay Severian, you didn't do it.
Thanks. Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2012, 10:24:06 PM »

No, no, no. Please don't regret it; this post really made me laugh (and turn bright red with embarrassment for a second):

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net. Wink

As far as who is worshiping what, I think it is important to respect the self-professed beliefs of the Christ-deniers so as to not make them out to be somehow worshiping our God when they have gone through such pains over the centuries to make clear that they are not worshiping Him. I mean, what can we make of things like this 700 year old Islamic anti-Christ poem (other than that Muslims have proven remarkably consistent in their ignorance, as these are the same kinds of statements they make today against our faith), if we insist on this idea that somehow everyone worships the One True God just because there's only one God out there to begin with? Even more to the point, why would there be so many passages dealing with the  worship of false gods in the Bible (ex. Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 40:4, Jeremiah 16:19, etc.) if such a thing were made impossible because we're are all just dealing with different levels of knowledge? I didn't believe that when Catholics said it, and I don't believe it when Orthodox say it either. Popular monotheism is bunk. To me, it is not so much a matter of making an idol of the 'proper understanding' of the Trinity (as though we are worshiping a concept, rather than the Being Himself), but of respecting theological differences. What you affirm and reject about God matters.

The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).
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« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2012, 10:31:11 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 10:35:57 PM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2012, 10:49:39 PM »


The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc.
I'm not sure there is any such thing as Islamic Orthodoxy, since Islam is purely up to the interpretation of imams. At least that was my impression.
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« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2012, 10:51:15 PM »

No, no, no. Please don't regret it; this post really made me laugh (and turn bright red with embarrassment for a second):

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net. Wink

As far as who is worshiping what, I think it is important to respect the self-professed beliefs of the Christ-deniers so as to not make them out to be somehow worshiping our God when they have gone through such pains over the centuries to make clear that they are not worshiping Him. I mean, what can we make of things like this 700 year old Islamic anti-Christ poem (other than that Muslims have proven remarkably consistent in their ignorance, as these are the same kinds of statements they make today against our faith), if we insist on this idea that somehow everyone worships the One True God just because there's only one God out there to begin with? Even more to the point, why would there be so many passages dealing with the  worship of false gods in the Bible (ex. Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 40:4, Jeremiah 16:19, etc.) if such a thing were made impossible because we're are all just dealing with different levels of knowledge? I didn't believe that when Catholics said it, and I don't believe it when Orthodox say it either. Popular monotheism is bunk. To me, it is not so much a matter of making an idol of the 'proper understanding' of the Trinity (as though we are worshiping a concept, rather than the Being Himself), but of respecting theological differences. What you affirm and reject about God matters.

The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).

What do Jews today affirm and reject differently about God than Israel did in the OT that makes them worship a different God than the true one? They did not recognize Christ as God. They don't have the Old Covenant. But do they believe differently to say that the God they believe in is other than the true God Abraham believed in?
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« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2012, 11:01:25 PM »


The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc.
I'm not sure there is any such thing as Islamic Orthodoxy, since Islam is purely up to the interpretation of imams. At least that was my impression.

"Small o" orthodoxy, though. There is not Orthodoxy as we understand it, but insofar as there have grown up specific schools of interpretation, I don't have a problem using that term in the same way that you could use it to describe the same phenomenon in Protestantism: Lutherans have a kind of "Lutheran orthodoxy" in that they tend to interpret within the bounds of that tradition, Presbyterians have the same in accordance with that tradition, Methodists within that tradition, etc. Maybe it would be better to say "consistency" rather than "orthodoxy", but then that sentence really wouldn't make sense ("outside of Islamic consistency"?).
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« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2012, 11:18:30 PM »

No, no, no. Please don't regret it; this post really made me laugh (and turn bright red with embarrassment for a second):

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net. Wink

As far as who is worshiping what, I think it is important to respect the self-professed beliefs of the Christ-deniers so as to not make them out to be somehow worshiping our God when they have gone through such pains over the centuries to make clear that they are not worshiping Him. I mean, what can we make of things like this 700 year old Islamic anti-Christ poem (other than that Muslims have proven remarkably consistent in their ignorance, as these are the same kinds of statements they make today against our faith), if we insist on this idea that somehow everyone worships the One True God just because there's only one God out there to begin with? Even more to the point, why would there be so many passages dealing with the  worship of false gods in the Bible (ex. Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 40:4, Jeremiah 16:19, etc.) if such a thing were made impossible because we're are all just dealing with different levels of knowledge? I didn't believe that when Catholics said it, and I don't believe it when Orthodox say it either. Popular monotheism is bunk. To me, it is not so much a matter of making an idol of the 'proper understanding' of the Trinity (as though we are worshiping a concept, rather than the Being Himself), but of respecting theological differences. What you affirm and reject about God matters.

The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).

What do Jews today affirm and reject differently about God than Israel did in the OT that makes them worship a different God than the true one? They did not recognize Christ as God. They don't have the Old Covenant. But do they believe differently to say that the God they believe in is other than the true God Abraham believed in?

I was stating the general principle by which I understand these things, namely, that when people tell me that they do not believe Christ is God (which Jews have told me), I believe them. I don't look for ways to say that they are somehow worshiping our God even though they are not, and are quite content to say that they are not (since they are not looking for such harmony between disparate belief systems that many modern Christians seem to desire).
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« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2012, 11:38:41 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
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« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2012, 11:52:56 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.
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« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2012, 12:08:53 AM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.

Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line? Surely the Jews' prayers will profit them nothing, for they reject the Christ, but that is not the question at hand.
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« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2012, 01:06:07 AM »

If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

Great point. 

At the same time, I think this applies to both sides.  Those claiming with certainty that Rabbinic Jews, or Muslims, or Mormons do worship the One True God should consider this as well.
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« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2012, 01:44:32 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...
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« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2012, 01:44:32 AM »

Pointless question, but no offense whatsoever! Orthodoxy needs to preach Orthodoxy because it is the correct and highest worship and knowledge of God. This is what a jew needs to hear, not something that appeals to them on a sentimental level. Christ never said that OT jews were not worshiping God, yet He came to do something different, and He was God The Son, too. Jews and gentiles are now on the same level. It doesn't matter what you are but what you believe, and nowadays there are almost as many beliefs as there are people. You can even find non-jews who convert to judaism. Problem is jews need to pay a bit more attention to what God is doing through history. By throwing this "Christ figure" into human history, God really caused the jews a serious "problem" (but it's a solution). And it's no wonder that the antichrist will be a jew, that some of the jews are so proud that they are willing to overturn history just so they can get to be "God's chosen" again. To the rest of the jews, really, accept Christ, why really hold on to judaism if you truly believe in a loving God? Just so you can be better than other people?

P.S. So, it seems that based on ethnicity, basically, the jews pride themselves and through rejecting Christ they think they are better than others.

Have you ever met a Jew or read anything by Rabbis?  There is so much to say...but so little chance it will matter...
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« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2012, 05:28:32 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.
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« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2012, 05:43:39 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.

Differently. You might want to check for example this site which tries to argue for their point of view.
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« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2012, 06:12:10 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.

Differently. You might want to check for example this site which tries to argue for their point of view.

Differently = Wrongly ?
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« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2012, 06:18:29 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.

Differently. You might want to check for example this site which tries to argue for their point of view.

Differently = Wrongly ?

Yes. Google "Christianity" for more information.
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« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2012, 06:38:11 AM »

Yes, and God can make Christians out of stones, just as he can children of Israel. Look, these kind of self-congratulatory faux-question topics drive me crazy. Yes, the Jews are wrong to reject Jesus. You already knew that. But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.
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« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2012, 10:10:01 AM »

Very good, Keble.
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« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2012, 10:29:29 AM »

Has anyone studied Judaisms complete views of the verses and chapters which they reject referring to Christ ?.
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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2012, 01:41:53 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

You need to go back and read what you wrote. You explicitly equated your understanding of the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity to God.

No one around here has done that with Fr. Thom.

I was't not going to pile on you like Mario, but start with just some basic questions, but in the end the point would be the same.

Unfortunately however, you didn't get his point.
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« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.

Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line? Surely the Jews' prayers will profit them nothing, for they reject the Christ, but that is not the question at hand.
That's a red herring. That has nothing to do with "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God", because only the conception of "the One True God" exists in the Orthodox Church. So no they don't worship the same God that the Orthodox do. Honestly it really doesn't get any simpler than that.

And yes rejecting Christ has everything to do with it.
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« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2012, 03:31:05 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

You need to go back and read what you wrote. You explicitly equated your understanding of the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity to God.

No one around here has done that with Fr. Thom.

I was't not going to pile on you like Mario, but start with just some basic questions, but in the end the point would be the same.

Unfortunately however, you didn't get his point.
K.
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« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2012, 05:17:45 PM »

600th viewer on this thread! Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2012, 05:44:25 PM »

600th viewer on this thread! Smiley

NVM!
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« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2012, 07:11:00 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.

Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line? Surely the Jews' prayers will profit them nothing, for they reject the Christ, but that is not the question at hand.
That's a red herring. That has nothing to do with "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God", because only the conception of "the One True God" exists in the Orthodox Church. So no they don't worship the same God that the Orthodox do. Honestly it really doesn't get any simpler than that.

And yes rejecting Christ has everything to do with it.

By your argument, nobody worships the same God. I think you should read Keble's post and reflect upon it, unless of course, you are incapable of understanding it.
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« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2012, 07:15:02 PM »

That's exactly right. And since I'm God you are worshipping the wrong god! Repent at once you sanctimonious sinner or I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!
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« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2012, 07:17:22 PM »

That's exactly right. And since I'm God you are worshipping the wrong god! Repent at once you sanctimonious sinner or I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!

How pathetic your posting behavior has become.
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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2012, 07:21:30 PM »

That's exactly right. And since I'm God you are worshipping the wrong god! Repent at once you sanctimonious sinner or I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!

How pathetic your posting behavior has become.
no u

EDIT: Guess you didn't get the reference, just trying to inject some humor because I'm not changing what I believe so I guess you just have to deal with it.

Now if you excuse me I have an idol to go worship.
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« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2012, 08:49:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?
POST OF THE MONTH!!

The problem, is too many folks can only define their own relationship with God at the expense of other people's.  


What brought the early converts? Or the Samaritan woman? The book of the Acts and the Gospels are filled with pages of people who had no relationship with Christ and came to Him, how could they come to God if God didn't not call them previously? What, they worshiped the Devil? Nonsense.  We ALL worship the Devil whenever we judge our brothers and sisters, and I am just as guilty as the next in this, hence  the need for mercy  Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #85 on: September 01, 2012, 06:04:10 AM »

Has anyone extensively studied Jewish Apologetic's ? from prominent Jewish Rabbis such as Tovia Singer, etc.. ?
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« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2012, 04:39:53 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".
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« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2012, 07:50:09 PM »

Has anyone extensively studied Jewish Apologetic's ? from prominent Jewish Rabbis such as Tovia Singer, etc.. ?

Yes, I have Jewish uncle (by marriage).
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« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2012, 08:11:12 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.
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« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2012, 08:13:46 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

x and understanding of x two different things.

This can be a subtle debate to be sure, if one is always encountering everything only in virtue of their understanding of it. I am sure you could see where the problems would lie.

I ain't certainly up for discussing it right now as I've been up so long I feel like vomiting.
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