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Author Topic: Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?  (Read 5019 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2012, 08:17:35 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
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« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2012, 08:20:54 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
Well my knowledge of Trinderstanding would be a whole lot better if I read more of Gregory the Writer and the Samitarian Author's "The Unkowingness of the unknown understanding"
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« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2012, 08:32:04 PM »

I made my own Trinity today. Ranch, Ketchup and cheese sauce as one condiment for my fries. I don't know how it tastes so good all I know is Im not prying into the mystery.

It's not my favorite thing but it's what I had available.
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« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2012, 08:37:37 PM »

Now I'm hungry. 
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« Reply #139 on: September 03, 2012, 08:44:26 PM »

Now I'm hungry. 
So I had hot wings, fries, bread, chocolate milk, Spaghetti-Os, and now a sandwich with Hawaiian Rolls.

Aaaaaaaand I've lost 12 lbs last week.
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« Reply #140 on: September 03, 2012, 08:56:19 PM »

Lost them how? Did you get bit by a shark?


(kidding)
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« Reply #141 on: September 03, 2012, 08:56:45 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
Well my knowledge of Trinderstanding would be a whole lot better if I read more of Gregory the Writer and the Samitarian Author's "The Unkowingness of the unknown understanding"

For your reading pleasure!
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« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2012, 08:59:35 PM »

Lost them how? Did you get bit by a shark?


(kidding)
No clue. I'm at 140 right now.

It helps that my stomach is a machine and I have a super fast metabolism.
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« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2012, 09:00:34 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
Well my knowledge of Trinderstanding would be a whole lot better if I read more of Gregory the Writer and the Samitarian Author's "The Unkowingness of the unknown understanding"

For your reading pleasure!

"for Criste assendid thedir bodely
upwardes, and sente the Holy Goost"

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« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2012, 09:41:14 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?

Some people just love to watch the forum go up in flames.  Cool
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« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2012, 09:43:19 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?

Some people just love to watch the forum go up in flames.  Cool
I would have loved to see de_nuke go up in flames but a counter-terrorist defused my bomb. Sad
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« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2012, 12:00:15 AM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Foolishness. Do you worship God as Trinity? Would you be comfortable submitting a summary of your understanding of Trinitarian doctrine for us to scrutinize in order to see if you really worship the Trinity? I would like to see what you think the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' is. Let's see if you worship the true God by your own standards, or if your worship is directed at a different God than the one worshipped by the saints. Come on, Achronos, if you have the guts, why don't you post a Triadological and Christological statement of faith, so we can assess whether you worship the true God? The time for you to put up or shut up has come, Achronos. If you really think you're such a genius, let's just see if you really worship the right God.
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« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2012, 12:09:33 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Not that this post is directed towards anyone specifically, I am just making a general statement.
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« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2012, 12:15:23 AM »

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« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2012, 12:17:08 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Do you even understand what it means to be trihuman?
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« Reply #150 on: September 04, 2012, 12:19:22 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Do you even understand what it means to be trihuman?
Do you even understand what it means to be trihumanontologicalinity?

Edit: nvm
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:27:44 AM by Achronos » Logged

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« Reply #151 on: September 04, 2012, 12:29:21 AM »



In other words, no. Why such reluctance? Come on, surely if you have the confidence to say such things, then you should have an understanding of the Trinity and of Christ which is free from error. Tell us, o wise Achronos, how is it if men are said to have one essence, yet differ in hypostases, can the Trinity also be said to be of one essence yet be of three different hypostases without there being three Gods, unlike the multiplicity which is found amongst us men? How can Christ, our God, who is said to be divine and man, not be divided by virtue of being united out of two natures which are unlike each other? Or perhaps you should explain to me why is it that it is permissible that say that the Holy Spirit is through the Son and that the Spirit belongs to the Son, but not that the Spirit is from the Son? Since you seem to posses knowledge of the True God beyond your years, such questions should pose few problems for you. Show us, great philosophaster, your mastery of theology which allows you to worship Him in Truth, free from error, since those who are in error cannot worship the True God, the True God Whom you so confidently claim to worship.
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« Reply #152 on: September 04, 2012, 01:07:17 AM »

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.

I think this is an excellent argument, but how does it square with your previous comment:
If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

I thought this indicated that it was impossible for us to make proclamations, due to not knowing God perfectly and what, if any, lines to draw.  But you appear to have drawn one.

I don't really see how so. I never drew any real cut off point. It is entirely possible that those who know nothing of Christ could still worship God in ignorance, but without ever being able to name Him or gain any understanding of Him. The only thing that I denied (perhaps somewhat too hastily and without enough qualification) is that pagans worship God, because in their case, they normally worship idols—deities fashioned after created things, such as the sun and the moon—although under extraordinary circumstances, pagans may come to worship some sort of transcendent or unknown deity, at which point they might be said to worship God in ignorance as well. St. Paul, being ever clever, manages to play upon this idea in his sermon upon the Areopagus.

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Now to be clear, I'm not arguing that it is impossible to distinguish between God and idols or created things. We know clearly that sun, moon and thunder deities are not God. But in discussing Islam, Judaism and Christianity, we are dealing then with religions which recognize some supreme being (in fact, a supreme being which is associated with causing the same set of historical events) Who is not merely some idol. That is where the line gets blurry. If we say that the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' (whatever that means) is the only true God, then why must we stop there? People understand the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' differently. This standard is inadmissible, because then it would mean that everybody has a different God, since nobody understands God in the same way; and then, at best, only one person would worship the true God, if that many. But once we admit any shades of grey, then we have to admit for consistency that proposing any sort of cut off line is a rather unjustifiable proposition, in my honest opinion.

Thanks for your response.  I agree with your assessment for the most part, and I think your pagan argument does quite well in explaining some concerns. 

In most cases (particularly those from or relating to monotheism) it may be best to assume that they are praying to the One True God, even if incorrectly or not in "fullness."  But without knowing God perfectly, or if/when to draw a line, doesn't that acknowledge that in our limited capacity to understand, there may be a line that God draws?  Do we know with certainty where prayers go?  Can they "miss" or be diverted? 

Silly questions maybe, but I wonder about why Jews and Muslims (in a different sense) rejected Christ. I think a simple explanation of people getting it wrong is insufficient.  And the idea that they are just less right, although you weren't minimising the importance by implying salvation, is a bit problematic. 

As you said, you did not draw a real cut off point.  But one could exist, right?  And it seemed as if you confidently stated that Rabbinic Jews do worship the One True God, even if we're not entirely sure that they do.

My apologies for this bit of ramble, but there may be some relevant points in there somewhere.
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« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2012, 01:54:53 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Not that this post is directed towards anyone specifically, I am just making a general statement.

 laugh
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« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2012, 01:58:29 AM »

In most cases (particularly those from or relating to monotheism) it may be best to assume that they are praying to the One True God, even if incorrectly or not in "fullness."  But without knowing God perfectly, or if/when to draw a line, doesn't that acknowledge that in our limited capacity to understand, there may be a line that God draws?  Do we know with certainty where prayers go?  Can they "miss" or be diverted? 

Silly questions maybe, but I wonder about why Jews and Muslims (in a different sense) rejected Christ. I think a simple explanation of people getting it wrong is insufficient.  And the idea that they are just less right, although you weren't minimising the importance by implying salvation, is a bit problematic. 

Certainly, I would say that the prayers of Jews and Muslims, while directed towards God, probably profit them nothing. Outside of grace, there is no life to be found, only death by the law. Saying that they worship God in no way implies that it is beneficial for them to do so, because as Jesus points out in the passage with the Samaritan woman, "the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." Without worshipping in spirit and in truth, their worship, while it is directed towards God, would be like the worship of the Samaritans. I oppose the idea that not knowing God precludes worshipping Him not out of any hope that living outside of Christ can be beneficial or profitable, but because I find troubling the pessimistic idea that those who do not know God cannot direct their worship towards Him unknowingly, or seek after Him, because I am inclined to believe, following the fathers, that mankind is inherently designed to seek after God.
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« Reply #155 on: September 04, 2012, 03:22:06 AM »



Yes let's keep continuing this ridiculous unimportant argument over semantics. I'm done dude. You made your insinuation that I was worshipping a concept which was wrong, and plenty of other members knew exactly what I was talking about in the context but you would like to bicker over its meaning.

You deliberately misunderstood me and celticfan, and continue to distort what I believe. Why don't you apologize for misunderstanding? Or are you too arrogant in doing that and turning into a pseudo-theological discussion, because that's not what this is.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity so it is impossible to worship the same God as us. THE END.

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

I'll make sure I become more humble as to not cause myself to ruin, like you care anyway.
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« Reply #156 on: September 04, 2012, 03:31:22 AM »

Tell us, o wise Achronos, how is it if men are said to have one essence, yet differ in hypostases, can the Trinity also be said to be of one essence yet be of three different hypostases without there being three Gods

The anointed royal priest of Adonai Elohim in Mesiach Yeshua, Nicholas, taketh the stand.

Herewidth and hereforeafter, forthwidth within a fourth, I bear wifness that thae God makes thae essence, thae essence makes no God. For one is God of propare name, and that is the Father, and two are God aen adjective by virtue of that Pataernity.

Fore thae strait-tongued John Damascus saith: It is better to introduce ain associate to God thaen if thou mutilateth the most high.
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« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2012, 03:36:52 AM »

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

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« Reply #158 on: September 04, 2012, 03:50:30 AM »

Lol.

This topic bores me while I wait for my stimulating argument with admiralnick on taxes.

Maybe we can tax the apes too.
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« Reply #159 on: September 04, 2012, 05:01:23 AM »

This thread is so Tasbeha.org'd. Pleeeeease can you now start a thread about how we shouldn't celebrate Thanksgiving, Severian? I want to leave this board in a huff, too. Cheesy
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« Reply #160 on: September 04, 2012, 10:08:20 AM »



Yes let's keep continuing this ridiculous unimportant argument over semantics. I'm done dude. You made your insinuation that I was worshipping a concept which was wrong, and plenty of other members knew exactly what I was talking about in the context but you would like to bicker over its meaning.

You deliberately misunderstood me and celticfan, and continue to distort what I believe. Why don't you apologize for misunderstanding? Or are you too arrogant in doing that and turning into a pseudo-theological discussion, because that's not what this is.

Because you have not abandoned the implications of your incorrect argument.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity so it is impossible to worship the same God as us. THE END.

This simple argument must really impress you, since you have repeated it so many times.

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

I was not aware that I owned any books written by father Thomas Hopko, although I have heard that he is a honorable priest of God who is quite well-read.
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« Reply #161 on: September 04, 2012, 10:26:43 AM »


Let me add some spice to the mix, as I take a turn at stirring the pot....

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  Matthew 7:15


I wouldn't dare to presume to know even a smidgen about God....only what He has deemed to share with us....and I don't even know all of that.

However, I do have a perfunctory understanding of the above quoted statements.

Since we are arguing about the Trinity, let's just take God the Father....the One Person of the Trinity that the Jews and Muslims claim to know and worship.  Christ clearly states that the only way to the Father, is through Him.  Therefore, it would lead us to believe that if one denies the existence of the Son, then they are lost on their path and can't find Father, because they need to turn right and go through the Son, but, they have turned left at that proverbial fork in the road.

This is not to say that they never "knew" the True God, however, when God said turn right they purposefully turned left....because they anticipated a fiery Messiah brandishing a sword, who would confirm their superiority over all mankind....but, Christ came and preached peace and equality of all.  This idea clashed with their personal interpretation of what the Messiah would be, and they knowingly rejected Him.

Islam also claims to be aware of God, the god of Abraham, however, with Muhammad who claimed to have "heard" God and written down His words, they also veered off the path.....by knowingly rejecting Christ as the Son of God.  ...and how can anyone claim to be sure that Islam follows the True God, when Muhammad himself did not recognize the source of the voices he had heard....and only attributed them to God after his friends suggested the idea to him.  Therefore, might we not also conclude that perhaps Muhammad did not in fact, hear God, but, a demon whose goal was to deceive and draw people away from God?

The only people who have a "right" to be confused about God, are those who populate remote areas of the planet, and who have not yet heard the Good News....the others, if they do not follow Christ, have completely veered off path.

However, many of us who do follow Christ, have also veered off the path....because we have diluted the teaching of the True Church in order to fit our current lifestyles.  This is true of organized Christian Churches, and of Christians of all denominations.  While we can easily point out how Protestants no longer follow the truth, and clearly state where Roman Catholicism has sidestepped, we as Orthodox Christians also fall far short of the mark in our daily lives, words and actions.


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« Reply #162 on: September 04, 2012, 03:50:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So if knowing God in any way is an exclusive to the Church, then how do folks from outside find the Church and a relationship with Christ in the first place? They are blindly groping around in their sins and worship of devils until by sheer accident they stumble and bump into God as if He were a coffee table in the dark on the way to the bathroom at night? The argument that folks here are asserting is not whether or not Muslims and Jews worship the Trinity, that argument is of course well settled.

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Now we hear with wicked Jews and the unrighteous Ishmaelites, who being without understanding say God is one person and one body, they are of a blind heart.
Ethiopian Anaphora of Saint Mary

Clearly the Jewish and Muslim conception of God is in error, and as the Ethiopian Fathers hear very clearly explain, "is without understanding."  This understanding we know is revealed in synergy with the Grace of God found only in the Orthodox Church. However, we have yet to answer the question, what brings people from outside the Church inside the Church in the first place? If folks can have zero relationship with God outside of the Grace of the Church, then how can we understand how they come to the Church in the first place? Isn't it written in the Gospel of John chapter 6:

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Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.


I do not think anyone is trying to suggest that Muslims or Jews or anyone else outside of the Church has Salvation or the forgiveness of sins.  I think people like myself are just trying to argue that some folks outside of the Church can have a relationship with God which will bring them into the Church.  Saying that some Muslims or Jews worship or know God is not to say that ALL Muslims or ALL Jews or that all of Islam or all of Judaism is somehow correct, righteous, or saving.  Rather, it is simply to assert the obvious, as to God Almighty none of us humans in our limited perspective can possibly know in any concrete way just exactly where God by His own wisdom is NOT.  That, seems to me, to be entirely His own business, and not worth our speculating if it is only to drive the point of divisions further.  Christian love is to invite folks into the Church to find Christ and be part of His Body, not to continually use Christ as a wedge to make distinctions between man and man, the "I love Jesus more than so-and-so approach"

Let us then pray mutually for us all, in and especially outside and in-between the Church.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2012, 06:45:17 PM »

So if knowing God in any way is an exclusive to the Church, then how do folks from outside find the Church and a relationship with Christ in the first place? They are blindly groping around in their sins and worship of devils until by sheer accident they stumble and bump into God as if He were a coffee table in the dark on the way to the bathroom at night?

If I may take a crack at this, as I believe I broached it in my earlier post (#56), particularly here (emphasis added):

Quote from: me
I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs.

The key is that they come to embrace the truth about our Lord Jesus Christ, and in doing so place themselves outside of the "orthodoxy" of their faiths. How they do so is no different than how any of us do so: No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).
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« Reply #164 on: September 04, 2012, 07:21:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).

So, if folks are just a bit less Muslim but not Christian they have a relationship with the Holy Spirit? See this is substantive progress in the dialogue. Smiley Does the same count for Jews? Protestants and Catholics? So how exactly can we explain that folks outside of Orthodox Christian baptism can receive the Grace of the Holy Spirit and yet also affirm the exclusivity of Orthodox covenant as the only relationship with God as asserted by several folks on this thread?

stay blessed,
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« Reply #165 on: September 04, 2012, 07:49:07 PM »

So, if folks are just a bit less Muslim but not Christian they have a relationship with the Holy Spirit?

No, I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, it is a statement about the possibility for people outside of the Church (individuals) to come to the truth that is preached within and through/by the Church, without formally entering it. In other words, before I was Orthodox I still had to get to a point of understanding and believing in Orthodoxy. Thus I wasn't baptized into new beliefs, but rather into full communion with the place where those truths already stood since the beginning of the faith. So it would be wrong to categorically say that those outside of union with the Church cannot do the same that I have already done. Rather, the distinction I'm making is that while we can say that Jew or a Muslim may worship the true God, they do so necessarily at least somewhat outside of the bounds of their own religion, as its stated orthodoxy (i.e., those things that Jews or Muslims or whoever affirm that make them NOT Christians) denies, to some degree or another, the truth. This is why I put the extracted portion of that post in a larger context regarding what non-Christians affirm and deny about God -- not because God changes according to our understanding of Him, but because when people go out of their way to purposely reject the truth about God, then I think it's fair to say that they don't worship Him. But not every Muslim or Jew or whatever does that. There are many who would affirm the truth that we openly affirm, were their circumstances different (e.g., if they learned the gospel from committed Orthodox evangelists, and not polemical anti-Christian writings of their own traditions). And there are many more who would like to convert, but cannot for whatever reason (e.g., no church in their country, as in the case of a Saudi acquaintance of mine). So they live as Christians internally, and I do not judge them because they do not have academic or other knowledge of the Trinity or whatever.

In short: Non-Christians may worship God, but I am not comfortable saying that any random non-Christian, maintaining an out-and-out rejection of our faith in favor of the blasphemies to which they are accustomed, is doing so merely by the virtue of their being only one God in the first place. This is the "popular monotheism" idea that I had thought was completely rejected by Orthodox, and at any rate remains completely rejected by me regardless. What we believe and affirm (and reject) about God must matter as well, not just that we get some abstract number or concept right.

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See this is substantive progress in the dialogue. Smiley Does the same count for Jews? Protestants and Catholics? So how exactly can we explain that folks outside of Orthodox Christian baptism can receive the Grace of the Holy Spirit and yet also affirm the exclusivity of Orthodox covenant as the only relationship with God as asserted by several folks on this thread?

See above. Those who are outside of the Church may affirm the truths that are affirmed within it, while not (yet) being in communion within it. This does not provide a loophole of any kind, but rather explains how it is that those who are outside of the church may come to God despite their own limitations.
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« Reply #166 on: September 04, 2012, 08:57:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Thus I wasn't baptized into new beliefs, but rather into full communion with the place where those truths already stood since the beginning of the faith. So it would be wrong to categorically say that those outside of union with the Church cannot do the same that I have already done. Rather, the distinction I'm making is that while we can say that Jew or a Muslim may worship the true God, they do so necessarily at least somewhat outside of the bounds of their own religion, as its stated orthodoxy (i.e., those things that Jews or Muslims or whoever affirm that make them NOT Christians) denies, to some degree or another, the truth.
In short: Non-Christians may worship God,

This is again progress in the discussion.  By worship, could we agree that we are talking about a tangible and direct relationship with God personally, not conceptually?  The Gospel of John chapter 6 didn't say that the concepts of God, or the noble truths of the Church theology brought people to Christ, it said that the Father directly draws all to Christ.  So we are drawn by God first, and then come to understand the logistics of this calling through learning the rules and explanations.  So could we all agree that in worshiping (i.e., directly knowing God in a personal way through the Spirit) God folks outside the Church are brought in?

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but I am not comfortable saying that any random non-Christian, maintaining an out-and-out rejection of our faith in favor of the blasphemies to which they are accustomed, is doing so merely by the virtue of their being only one God in the first place. This is the "popular monotheism" idea that I had thought was completely rejected by Orthodox, and at any rate remains completely rejected by me regardless. What we believe and affirm (and reject) about God must matter as well, not just that we get some abstract number or concept right.

Agreed, but I'm not sure that what we are talking about is exactly the same as popular monotheism.  This philosophy is essentially a kind of universalism which teaches similar to the Brahman understanding that everything is really God so anyway to worship God is the correct way or an acceptable way to worship God.  That is not necessarily at all what at least I am trying to suggest.  Rather, that by worship I am referring to a direct relationship with God, even outside of a covenant or saving relationship, but a relationship nonetheless.  Its not that Judaism or Islam as a methodology is correct worship which should be emulated, rather just to say that God has His own right to talk with and know whomever He pleases, and it is this relationship precisely which brings those from outside the Church to come inside, again according to the Gospel of John chapter 6.



Quote

See above. Those who are outside of the Church may affirm the truths that are affirmed within it, while not (yet) being in communion within it. This does not provide a loophole of any kind, but rather explains how it is that those who are outside of the church may come to God despite their own limitations.

Agreed, its not a loophole at all, rather its just to say that God can know and befriend whomever He pleases, and this is separate from Salvation, which is exclusively in the Church, in fact this is what brings people from outside towards this Salvation in the first place, hence the "calling" and also being "chosen" Smiley 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #167 on: September 04, 2012, 09:33:51 PM »

This is again progress in the discussion.  By worship, could we agree that we are talking about a tangible and direct relationship with God personally, not conceptually?
 

What do you mean "personally, not conceptually"? I take exception to the introduction of this idea of "concept worship" that has cropped up in this thread. I think it is wrong to say that The Trinity is a concept. I think trinitarianism is a concept, but The Trinity is the uncreated and undivided unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are God, and thus worshiping them by the name "Holy Trinity" is not really worshiping a concept; it's in a sense talking in shorthand, as we have developed this terminology to denote God as He has revealed Himself to us. Not just any trinity will do, because not just any trinity of things or people is the Holy Trinity. (An aside: My mind was changed regarding this topic as a result of a conversation I once had with a Hindu who insisted that his Hindu trinity, whatever that is, is God, and that ours is a cheap imitation of it; that is obviously wrong, and thus we must be careful when we talk about the Holy Trinity to be strict that we are not talking about the concept of "a trinitarian god" as a thing, but rather about Father, Son, and Spirit, who are about as far from being mere "concepts" as I can think of.)

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The Gospel of John chapter 6 didn't say that the concepts of God, or the noble truths of the Church theology brought people to Christ
 

And neither has anyone in this thread, unless I have missed it. In Orthodoxy especially, it is not a matter of passing on some argument or piece of information to which we assent and then can say we believe. As I've already referenced (from 1 Corinthians), no one can say Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit. A person who is merely curious about theology and philosophy can satisfy himself without ever actually encountering God. But then I don't think anyone here has said anything to the contrary.

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So we are drawn by God first, and then come to understand the logistics of this calling through learning the rules and explanations.  So could we all agree that in worshiping (i.e., directly knowing God in a personal way through the Spirit) God folks outside the Church are brought in?

I think I said more or less that exact thing, reflecting upon my own experiences in converting from Catholicism to Orthodoxy.

Quote
Agreed, but I'm not sure that what we are talking about is exactly the same as popular monotheism.  This philosophy is essentially a kind of universalism which teaches similar to the Brahman understanding that everything is really God so anyway to worship God is the correct way or an acceptable way to worship God.
 

Perhaps we have different things in mind when we use that term. I mean this tendency, bolstered in some churches by its official sanction in their writings (e.g., CCC 841), to believe that all who intend or claim to worship God are actually doing so, by virtue of there only being one God in the first place. A sort of intellectually lazy semi-affirmation of their religious systems that amounts to squishy, indifferent ideas like "eh, where else could their prayers go?", despite the fact that the Holy Bible contains many passages warning against the worship of false gods, showing us that it is possible that some who pray are not in fact worshiping God, despite their protestations to the contrary. Not everything that someone says is God or from God actually is. We must test all things, and hold fast to what is good.

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Rather, that by worship I am referring to a direct relationship with God, even outside of a covenant or saving relationship, but a relationship nonetheless.  Its not that Judaism or Islam as a methodology is correct worship which should be emulated, rather just to say that God has His own right to talk with and know whomever He pleases, and it is this relationship precisely which brings those from outside the Church to come inside, again according to the Gospel of John chapter 6.

God may call who He wishes. Their response will determine much of how that plays out, hence all my earlier points about what people affirm and reject about God being very important. It's not that you "believe" your way into salvation, if we take belief to be a kind of rational epistemological certainty, but that what you believe determines how you will act and live, including your response to God. Not everyone who calls upon Him "Lord! Lord!" will see the kingdom. We would do well to remember that first for ourselves instead of condemning others, but I still believe it applies to others as well, and no one will be saved by any other God but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

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Agreed, its not a loophole at all, rather its just to say that God can know and befriend whomever He pleases, and this is separate from Salvation, which is exclusively in the Church, in fact this is what brings people from outside towards this Salvation in the first place, hence the "calling" and also being "chosen" Smiley

I believe we are in agreement today, my friend. You may, if you wish, mark your calendar. Wink
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« Reply #168 on: September 04, 2012, 10:07:37 PM »

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« Reply #169 on: September 04, 2012, 10:09:21 PM »



Yes let's keep continuing this ridiculous unimportant argument over semantics. I'm done dude. You made your insinuation that I was worshipping a concept which was wrong, and plenty of other members knew exactly what I was talking about in the context but you would like to bicker over its meaning.

You deliberately misunderstood me and celticfan, and continue to distort what I believe. Why don't you apologize for misunderstanding? Or are you too arrogant in doing that and turning into a pseudo-theological discussion, because that's not what this is.

Because you have not abandoned the implications of your incorrect argument.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity so it is impossible to worship the same God as us. THE END.

This simple argument must really impress you, since you have repeated it so many times.

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

I was not aware that I owned any books written by father Thomas Hopko, although I have heard that he is a honorable priest of God who is quite well-read.
I think it's hugz time:



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« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2012, 01:14:02 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is again progress in the discussion.  By worship, could we agree that we are talking about a tangible and direct relationship with God personally, not conceptually?
 

What do you mean "personally, not conceptually"? I take exception to the introduction of this idea of "concept worship" that has cropped up in this thread. I think it is wrong to say that The Trinity is a concept. I think trinitarianism is a concept, but The Trinity is the uncreated and undivided unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are God, and thus worshiping them by the name "Holy Trinity" is not really worshiping a concept;

I'm sorry, that is not what I meant at all.  You mentioned talking about studying the Trinity and the teachings of the Church and that this persuaded you towards the Church.  That is what I meant by concept, the conceptual ideas of what the Church is or isn't.  I do not myself personally believe that the concept of the Church attracts anyone, rather God calls those into His Church, and thereafter we begin to agree with the concepts as we experience them Smiley


Quote
Quote
Agreed, its not a loophole at all, rather its just to say that God can know and befriend whomever He pleases, and this is separate from Salvation, which is exclusively in the Church, in fact this is what brings people from outside towards this Salvation in the first place, hence the "calling" and also being "chosen" Smiley

I believe we are in agreement today, my friend. You may, if you wish, mark your calendar. Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2012, 01:22:04 AM »

I see. I am sorry for misunderstanding you and jumping to conclusions regarding what you mean, Habte.
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« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2013, 02:22:03 AM »

I John 2:23 "Whoever does not have the Son does not have the Father..." If they reject Jesus, then I don't see how they could have the same God.
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« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2013, 02:49:17 AM »

"From the standpoint of the gospel [non-Christian Jews] are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the Fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
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« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2013, 02:56:16 AM »

Well I was dumb

or still am.

Embarrasing.
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« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2013, 03:26:45 AM »

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Re: Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?


Somewhere in the NT; it says that the Father is seeking worshipers to worship in spirit and truth.
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« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2013, 04:11:41 AM »

It seems to me neccessarily since they have rejected Jesus who is God and declare him false they had abandoned worship of the one true God. Or rather never had it when Post temple judaism began to form itself partially in responce to Christianity as it was a growing faith.
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« Reply #177 on: February 09, 2013, 04:15:53 AM »


("To the Unknown God," Paletine Rome, c. 100 BC)

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagas, said: 'Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship. I found also an altar with this inscription: 'To the Unknown God." What therefore you worship as Unknown, this I proclaim to you (Acts 17:22-23).


(Areopagus Hill/Athens, Greece)

"By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did." -Hebrews 11:2

On the basis of our concept of progressive revelation (e.g. from Abraham to Christianity) and the teaching of the NT (e.g. Heb. 11) it seems to me we must allow the possibility of worship of the true God without the fullness of faith having been yet revealed. This, I think does not from an Orthodox POV entail inclusivism[1]with regard to our contemporaries, but at best a sort of "agno-inclusivism" i.e. in the sense of knowing where the Church is but not knowing where she is not as the cliche goes. The prophets and saints of the OT are another matter only to the extent that God has made this known. Of others we have yet to know, but may commit all to hope and prayer.

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[1]Terminology in the sense described in James Sennett, "Worthy of a Better God: Religious Diversity and Salvation," in Bassham, Walls, and Irwin, eds., The Chronicles of Narnia and Philosophy (2005):

"Universal Salvation is the doctrine that all people will be saved, regardless of their religious affiliation, or even if they have none.
Pluralism is the doctrine that all of the great religions are capable of saving people; there isn't any religion that is the "one true religion" or the "only way."
Inclusivism is the doctrine that there is only one true religion, but that it is possible for people to be saved by that religion without consciously or explicitly belonging to it.
Exclusivism is the doctrine that there is only one true religion, and that one must belong to that religion [consciously/explicitly] in order to be saved.
People have used the term "universalism" for each of the first three doctrines stated above. But these are definitely different positions. The first implies that all people will be saved, whereas neither the second nor the third does. And the third implies that there is only one true religion, which the second denies."

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« Reply #178 on: February 09, 2013, 04:23:50 AM »

I think the difference here is that most Jews have openly rejected Christ and thus I don't see how the possibility exists that they could be worshipping the same God in an incomplete way. The Truth has been exposed to them explicitly and they have rejected it. This isn't the same as the Hindu youth who's never been exposed to Christianity or the isolated African or South American tribe who hasn't been exposed to the truth. Jews HAVE been exposed to Christ and they've openly rejected and crucified Him. For crying out loud, they have a Talmudic tradition stating that the Theotokos was a prostitute. St. John's words were very clear "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either..." (1 Jn. 2:23). The pagans at Aereopagus--along with many people in impoverished, primitive societies today--have not been exposed to Christ, therefore, they are not really denying Him. It's different for them. But the Jews were exposed to Him and denied Him.
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« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2013, 04:43:37 AM »

I think the difference here is that most Jews have openly rejected Christ and thus I don't see how the possibility exists that they could be worshipping the same God in an incomplete way. The Truth has been exposed to them explicitly and they have rejected it. This isn't the same as the Hindu youth who's never been exposed to Christianity or the isolated African or South American tribe who hasn't been exposed to the truth. Jews HAVE been exposed to Christ and they've openly rejected and crucified Him. For crying out loud, they have a Talmudic tradition stating that the Theotokos was a prostitute. St. John's words were very clear "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either..." (1 Jn. 2:23). The pagans at Aereopagus--along with many people in impoverished, primitive societies today--have not been exposed to Christ, therefore, they are not really denying Him. It's different for them. But the Jews were exposed to Him and denied Him.
That is the most difficult point for a position like Sennett's/Lewis's. Sennett's reply is that the denial which leads to eternal death must be permanent, not temporary:

"Inclusivists and exclusivists agree completely about one thing. Both believe that all who are saved do eventually come to know and embrace the one true religion. This is the import of AsIan's climactic comment to Emeth, "All find what they truly seek." Where inclusivists part company with exclusivists is in their conviction that, while many people come to know and embrace the truth explicitly before death, there are some who do so only in the next life. This idea of a pilgrimage journey to truth and salvation is dramatically illustrated in the story of Shasta in Tbe Horse and His Boy..." (Sennett, op cit).

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