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Author Topic: Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?  (Read 4689 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 29, 2012, 06:56:01 PM »

I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2012, 07:25:49 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2012, 07:27:36 PM »

My answer, no.

Reason: Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2012, 07:28:10 PM »

NVM!
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2012, 07:29:38 PM »

My answer, no.

Reason: Jesus Christ.
I think I have to agree.
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2012, 07:46:56 PM »

yes.
I meant from an Orthodox Christian perspective, not a Jewish perspective. That is why I put it in the "faith issues" board.
my apologies.
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2012, 07:48:05 PM »

yes.
I meant from an Orthodox Christian perspective, not a Jewish perspective. That is why I put it in the "faith issues" board.
my apologies.
No problem. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2012, 08:03:30 PM »

Judaism (from the Latin Iudaismus, derived from the Greek Ioudaïsmos, and ultimately from the Hebrew יהודה, Yehudah, "Judah"; in Hebrew: יַהֲדוּת, Yahadut, the distinctive characteristics of the Judean ethnos) is the religion, philosophy and way of life of the Jewish people. A monotheistic religion originating in the Hebrew Bible (also known as the Tanakh) and explored in later texts such as the Talmud, Judaism is considered by religious Jews to be the expression of the covenantal relationship God established with the Children of Israel. Rabbinic Judaism holds that God revealed his laws and commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah. This assertion was historically challenged by the Karaites, a movement that flourished in the medieval period, which retains several thousand followers today and maintains that only the Written Torah was revealed. In modern times, liberal movements such as Humanistic Judaism may be nontheistic.

Judaism claims a historical continuity spanning more than 3,000 years. It is one of the oldest monotheistic religions, and the oldest to survive into the present day. The Hebrews / Israelites were already referred to as "Jews" in later books of the Tanakh such as the Book of Esther, with the term Jews replacing the title "Children of Israel". Judaism's texts, traditions and values strongly influenced later Abrahamic religions, including Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Many aspects of Judaism have also directly or indirectly influenced secular Western ethics and civil law.

Jews are an ethnoreligious group and include those born Jewish and converts to Judaism. In 2010, the world Jewish population was estimated at 13.4 million, or roughly 0.2% of the total world population. About 42% of all Jews reside in Israel and about 42% reside in the United States and Canada, with most of the remainder living in Europe. The largest Jewish religious movements are Orthodox Judaism (Haredi Judaism and Modern Orthodox Judaism), Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism. A major source of difference between these groups is their approach to Jewish law. Orthodox Judaism maintains that the Torah and Jewish law are divine in origin, eternal and unalterable, and that they should be strictly followed. Conservative and Reform Judaism are more liberal, with Conservative Judaism generally promoting a more "traditional" interpretation of Judaism's requirements than Reform Judaism. A typical Reform position is that Jewish law should be viewed as a set of general guidelines rather than as a set of restrictions and obligations whose observance is required of all Jews. Historically, special courts enforced Jewish law; today, these courts still exist but the practice of Judaism is mostly voluntary. Authority on theological and legal matters is not vested in any one person or organization, but in the sacred texts and rabbis and scholars who interpret them.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2012, 08:04:48 PM »

Ok so you are a bot from wikipedia.
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2012, 08:17:54 PM »




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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2012, 08:20:52 PM »






I am liking this poster.
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2012, 08:53:05 PM »

I find it classist and egregious.
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2012, 08:54:21 PM »

Get back to the topic, people.
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2012, 08:55:18 PM »

Get back to the topic, people.

Sorry, sir. I won't comment as I am not Orthodox.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2012, 08:57:56 PM »

Get back to the topic, people.

Sorry, sir. I won't comment as I am not Orthodox.
Sorry if I were too harsh. I just came from another forum where all the posters got into an argumentative tangent, ruining a perfectly good thread. I did not want that to happen here so I may have been unforgiving.
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2012, 10:04:14 PM »

Severian, I have a sincere question for you.  Why are you asking?  This is your thread, so if you don't feel like answering I'll understand. 
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2012, 10:09:35 PM »

Severian, I have a sincere question for you.  Why are you asking? This is your thread, so if you don't feel like answering I'll understand. 
Just out of curiosity.

Because I have been thinking... The OT Jews obviously worshiped the true God without having explicit knowledge of the Trinity (though I think the OT and extra-Biblical Jewish literature do hint at the idea of a Triune God), but now that our Lord and God Jesus Christ has come, and they know full well about the Trinity, and knowingly reject him, does that mean they worship a different Deity?

EDIT: For me the answer is 'yes.' Their rejection of our Lord Jesus as God the Messiah by necessity means that they reject the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Because He *is* the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob manifested in a complete human form.
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2012, 10:29:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I would say yes, however worshiping God and having a proper, New covenant relationship with Him through Jesus Christ are entirely different things.  A LOT of people worship God, and a lot of people before coming to the Church worship God, after all, it is God who brings them to His Church in the first place.  However, only in the Church is the depth of Salvation, which is entirely different from worship in my opinion.  Worship doesn't imply Salvation, just as knowing a person doesn't imply friendship or commitment.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2012, 10:33:37 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.  
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2012, 10:37:15 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
Thank you for the contribution, Ionnis.
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2012, 10:42:05 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.  
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2012, 10:43:17 PM »

If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

I concur!
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2012, 10:46:42 PM »

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2012, 11:06:10 PM »

All that I know is that if the unbelieving Jews will be cast into darkness, how much worse it will be for us, those of us who are Orthodox, those of us who do believe, and yet continue to live in sin.


But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. Luke 12:45-48 (ESV). 
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2012, 11:29:56 PM »

Since they deny God (Jesus Christ and to a lesser extent the personhood and deity of the holyspirit) they cannot be worshipping the one true God. Only but a basterdised version of him.
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2012, 11:38:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Again, I think a more realistic approach would be to differentiate the concept of worship and salvation.  In this way we can follow the more Orthodox approach of apophatic theology in focusing on what we know God not to be rather than pretending we know what God is.  In this instance its sort of reversed, we know from the Church that Salvation is only found through a covenant, Orthodox relationship with the Father through the Son and the Holy Spirit.  However again, we can't assert that we know exactly anything about where or who God is to folks outside the Church, rather we can only speak of the Church.  We don't know if God is with the Jews, we only know that Salvation is in the Church, but again, it must be some kind of relationship with God which brings outsiders into the Church in the first place correct? Does a relationship or worship of God necessarily imply Salvation? I would think not, see would be better off not even speculating on this matter which is in every respect beyond anything but estimations.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2012, 12:04:34 AM »

I would support a few of the earlier posts. The modern-day Jews do not worship the One True God, otherwise they'd be considered Christians.

The reason being not just Christ, but the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2012, 12:23:33 AM »

I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.

Either they never have or they still do.
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2012, 12:23:33 AM »

If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

I concur!

So neither of you believe that Protestants or Catholics are worshipping God?
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2012, 03:03:44 AM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.  
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2012, 08:19:29 AM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me.  
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god idol Achronos and Celticfan.

Fixed
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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2012, 08:27:39 AM »

Because it's the best show on Earth

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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2012, 09:32:15 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2012, 09:49:04 AM »

Pointless question, but no offense whatsoever! Orthodoxy needs to preach Orthodoxy because it is the correct and highest worship and knowledge of God. This is what a jew needs to hear, not something that appeals to them on a sentimental level. Christ never said that OT jews were not worshiping God, yet He came to do something different, and He was God The Son, too. Jews and gentiles are now on the same level. It doesn't matter what you are but what you believe, and nowadays there are almost as many beliefs as there are people. You can even find non-jews who convert to judaism. Problem is jews need to pay a bit more attention to what God is doing through history. By throwing this "Christ figure" into human history, God really caused the jews a serious "problem" (but it's a solution). And it's no wonder that the antichrist will be a jew, that some of the jews are so proud that they are willing to overturn history just so they can get to be "God's chosen" again. To the rest of the jews, really, accept Christ, why really hold on to judaism if you truly believe in a loving God? Just so you can be better than other people?

P.S. So, it seems that based on ethnicity, basically, the jews pride themselves and through rejecting Christ they think they are better than others.
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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2012, 10:02:42 AM »

Yes. Jews, Muslims, Arians, Nestorians, Monophysites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons etc. are heretical Christians. Therefore they worship One True God.
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2012, 10:22:59 AM »

I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.
According to what He told the Samaritan woman, yes.
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2012, 10:49:43 AM »

I do not mean this to be disparaging by any means, but can it be said that modern-day Rabbinic Jews worship the true God even though they reject the doctrine of the Trinity? And the belief that our Lord Jesus Christ is God?

I think I know the answer to this, but I am curious to hear what you all think.
According to what He told the Samaritan woman, yes.

Who's this Jesus guy think He is, telling this heretic things like that?
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2012, 04:55:28 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2012, 05:01:21 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net. Wink
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2012, 05:49:22 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.

Kill yr idols
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2012, 05:57:00 PM »

You have an opinion different than mine and you explained why?

Ok, idolater.

And here's a straw man about how you hate Jesus.
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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2012, 06:01:13 PM »

NVM!

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« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2012, 06:02:21 PM »

You have an opinion different than mine and you explained why?

Ok, idolater.

And here's a straw man about how you hate Jesus.
Honestly he took the bait just as I expected TBH.
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« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2012, 06:04:24 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
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« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2012, 06:05:17 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.
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« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2012, 06:07:37 PM »

NVM!


Have you tried to preview your posts beforehand? Use that to see if you really want to post what you just wrote.

That way you won't leave the rest of us wondering what you said Tongue.
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« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2012, 06:20:42 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.

You are right, it is. Probably because it has no definitive final answer, only pious and not-so-pious opinions.
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« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2012, 06:23:08 PM »

NVM!


Have you tried to preview your posts beforehand? Use that to see if you really want to post what you just wrote.

That way you won't leave the rest of us wondering what you said Tongue.
Good idea. Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2012, 06:41:48 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.

You are right, it is. Probably because it has no definitive final answer, only pious and not-so-pious opinions.
I forgot, it's a mystery
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« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2012, 06:43:35 PM »

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.

You are right, it is. Probably because it has no definitive final answer, only pious and not-so-pious opinions.
I forgot, it's a mystery

There now is an example of an opinion - you can decide which of the two types it is.
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2012, 07:12:51 PM »

I know I disagree with most, and may be I'm completely wrong, but I think we're being unfair when we accuse Jews and Muslims of worshiping idols or demons rather than the One True God.

The religion of Israel and the religion of the Church, the new Israel today, are not two different religions, but one, the true religion. In the NT we know more of the truth than was revealed in the OT, but when we go to heaven we will know more still, but that doesn't mean we'll have converted to a new religion. We follow the same continuous tradition of our father Abraham, though the full revelation has since been given to us.

Modern day Jews have departed from this tradition. We are the continuation of it, not them. We continue in the worship of the Temple, through its fulfillment in our participation in the heavenly Liturgy of which it was a shadow. Modern day Jews are not the continuation of the Old Covenant. They departed from it and do not have sacrifice any more, so they don't follow the Old Covenant. They are very much analogous to Protestants, both of whom either reject or have lost the Liturgy, and have become "people of the Book".

That said, being in the wrong tradition, and not having the full understanding does not mean worshipping a different God.

Abraham did not know the mystery of the Trinity as fully as we do, yet he surely worshipped the true God. More of the truth was revealed to us when Christ came, and those who rejected that truth were wrong. But they didn't change who they worship. They just believe wrongly about Him. They rejected knowing more of Him. They worship Him ignorantly, but still the worship the One God.

Later Muslims rejected the same things the Jews rejected initially. They understand God wrongly, but I don't believe that that means their prayers and worship is not directed towards Him. If they follow violence and sensuality then perhaps they are following an idol, but if they pursue virtue and goodness, then they have a very  wrong knowledge of God, but it is still Him they are seeking.

That doesn't mean they don't need Christ, that they don't need the Church, that they don't need Baptism and the Mysteries. They have rejected the New Covenant, and they do not have the Old. They are estranged from God. Their attempts to worship Him and follow Him are wrong. How He will deal with them I don't know. But when I see a good person seeking God, I can't believe that is an idol or a demon, and not a sliver of the truth of the One God that they are directed towards.
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2012, 09:05:12 PM »

I know I disagree with most, and may be I'm completely wrong, but I think we're being unfair when we accuse Jews and Muslims of worshiping idols or demons rather than the One True God.

The religion of Israel and the religion of the Church, the new Israel today, are not two different religions, but one, the true religion. In the NT we know more of the truth than was revealed in the OT, but when we go to heaven we will know more still, but that doesn't mean we'll have converted to a new religion. We follow the same continuous tradition of our father Abraham, though the full revelation has since been given to us.

Modern day Jews have departed from this tradition. We are the continuation of it, not them. We continue in the worship of the Temple, through its fulfillment in our participation in the heavenly Liturgy of which it was a shadow. Modern day Jews are not the continuation of the Old Covenant. They departed from it and do not have sacrifice any more, so they don't follow the Old Covenant. They are very much analogous to Protestants, both of whom either reject or have lost the Liturgy, and have become "people of the Book".

That said, being in the wrong tradition, and not having the full understanding does not mean worshipping a different God.

Abraham did not know the mystery of the Trinity as fully as we do, yet he surely worshipped the true God. More of the truth was revealed to us when Christ came, and those who rejected that truth were wrong. But they didn't change who they worship. They just believe wrongly about Him. They rejected knowing more of Him. They worship Him ignorantly, but still the worship the One God.

Later Muslims rejected the same things the Jews rejected initially. They understand God wrongly, but I don't believe that that means their prayers and worship is not directed towards Him. If they follow violence and sensuality then perhaps they are following an idol, but if they pursue virtue and goodness, then they have a very  wrong knowledge of God, but it is still Him they are seeking.

That doesn't mean they don't need Christ, that they don't need the Church, that they don't need Baptism and the Mysteries. They have rejected the New Covenant, and they do not have the Old. They are estranged from God. Their attempts to worship Him and follow Him are wrong. How He will deal with them I don't know. But when I see a good person seeking God, I can't believe that is an idol or a demon, and not a sliver of the truth of the One God that they are directed towards.

I agree with this.

 I am always trying to tell all , whether it is my Greek Priest who says I should not have taken communion when i stood up in friends weddings, privately he understands my reasoning, but officially he has to follow doctrine, I understand and I also forgive them as they know not what they do, just as I need forgiveness for my trespasses.

The lord taught that we should love others MORE than ourselves.

This leads also to what the story of the pharisee and the tax collector was about.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


We therefore are told to humble ourselves and not act as if we know better.Let God do the Judging.
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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2012, 09:21:25 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2012, 09:23:50 PM »

I really regret creating this thread.

Sorry guys.
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« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2012, 09:28:00 PM »

I really regret creating this thread.

Sorry guys.

It's okay Severian, you didn't do it.
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« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2012, 09:29:43 PM »

I really regret creating this thread.

Sorry guys.

It's okay Severian, you didn't do it.
Thanks. Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2012, 10:24:06 PM »

No, no, no. Please don't regret it; this post really made me laugh (and turn bright red with embarrassment for a second):

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net. Wink

As far as who is worshiping what, I think it is important to respect the self-professed beliefs of the Christ-deniers so as to not make them out to be somehow worshiping our God when they have gone through such pains over the centuries to make clear that they are not worshiping Him. I mean, what can we make of things like this 700 year old Islamic anti-Christ poem (other than that Muslims have proven remarkably consistent in their ignorance, as these are the same kinds of statements they make today against our faith), if we insist on this idea that somehow everyone worships the One True God just because there's only one God out there to begin with? Even more to the point, why would there be so many passages dealing with the  worship of false gods in the Bible (ex. Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 40:4, Jeremiah 16:19, etc.) if such a thing were made impossible because we're are all just dealing with different levels of knowledge? I didn't believe that when Catholics said it, and I don't believe it when Orthodox say it either. Popular monotheism is bunk. To me, it is not so much a matter of making an idol of the 'proper understanding' of the Trinity (as though we are worshiping a concept, rather than the Being Himself), but of respecting theological differences. What you affirm and reject about God matters.

The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).
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« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2012, 10:31:11 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx
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« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2012, 10:49:39 PM »


The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc.
I'm not sure there is any such thing as Islamic Orthodoxy, since Islam is purely up to the interpretation of imams. At least that was my impression.
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« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2012, 10:51:15 PM »

No, no, no. Please don't regret it; this post really made me laugh (and turn bright red with embarrassment for a second):

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net. Wink

As far as who is worshiping what, I think it is important to respect the self-professed beliefs of the Christ-deniers so as to not make them out to be somehow worshiping our God when they have gone through such pains over the centuries to make clear that they are not worshiping Him. I mean, what can we make of things like this 700 year old Islamic anti-Christ poem (other than that Muslims have proven remarkably consistent in their ignorance, as these are the same kinds of statements they make today against our faith), if we insist on this idea that somehow everyone worships the One True God just because there's only one God out there to begin with? Even more to the point, why would there be so many passages dealing with the  worship of false gods in the Bible (ex. Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 40:4, Jeremiah 16:19, etc.) if such a thing were made impossible because we're are all just dealing with different levels of knowledge? I didn't believe that when Catholics said it, and I don't believe it when Orthodox say it either. Popular monotheism is bunk. To me, it is not so much a matter of making an idol of the 'proper understanding' of the Trinity (as though we are worshiping a concept, rather than the Being Himself), but of respecting theological differences. What you affirm and reject about God matters.

The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).

What do Jews today affirm and reject differently about God than Israel did in the OT that makes them worship a different God than the true one? They did not recognize Christ as God. They don't have the Old Covenant. But do they believe differently to say that the God they believe in is other than the true God Abraham believed in?
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« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2012, 11:01:25 PM »


The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc.
I'm not sure there is any such thing as Islamic Orthodoxy, since Islam is purely up to the interpretation of imams. At least that was my impression.

"Small o" orthodoxy, though. There is not Orthodoxy as we understand it, but insofar as there have grown up specific schools of interpretation, I don't have a problem using that term in the same way that you could use it to describe the same phenomenon in Protestantism: Lutherans have a kind of "Lutheran orthodoxy" in that they tend to interpret within the bounds of that tradition, Presbyterians have the same in accordance with that tradition, Methodists within that tradition, etc. Maybe it would be better to say "consistency" rather than "orthodoxy", but then that sentence really wouldn't make sense ("outside of Islamic consistency"?).
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« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2012, 11:18:30 PM »

No, no, no. Please don't regret it; this post really made me laugh (and turn bright red with embarrassment for a second):

The obnoxiousness on this thread is astounding.
Maybe more posters than I thought from Tasbeha.org also participate on OC.net. Wink

As far as who is worshiping what, I think it is important to respect the self-professed beliefs of the Christ-deniers so as to not make them out to be somehow worshiping our God when they have gone through such pains over the centuries to make clear that they are not worshiping Him. I mean, what can we make of things like this 700 year old Islamic anti-Christ poem (other than that Muslims have proven remarkably consistent in their ignorance, as these are the same kinds of statements they make today against our faith), if we insist on this idea that somehow everyone worships the One True God just because there's only one God out there to begin with? Even more to the point, why would there be so many passages dealing with the  worship of false gods in the Bible (ex. Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 40:4, Jeremiah 16:19, etc.) if such a thing were made impossible because we're are all just dealing with different levels of knowledge? I didn't believe that when Catholics said it, and I don't believe it when Orthodox say it either. Popular monotheism is bunk. To me, it is not so much a matter of making an idol of the 'proper understanding' of the Trinity (as though we are worshiping a concept, rather than the Being Himself), but of respecting theological differences. What you affirm and reject about God matters.

The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).

What do Jews today affirm and reject differently about God than Israel did in the OT that makes them worship a different God than the true one? They did not recognize Christ as God. They don't have the Old Covenant. But do they believe differently to say that the God they believe in is other than the true God Abraham believed in?

I was stating the general principle by which I understand these things, namely, that when people tell me that they do not believe Christ is God (which Jews have told me), I believe them. I don't look for ways to say that they are somehow worshiping our God even though they are not, and are quite content to say that they are not (since they are not looking for such harmony between disparate belief systems that many modern Christians seem to desire).
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« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2012, 11:38:41 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
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« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2012, 11:52:56 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.
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« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2012, 12:08:53 AM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.

Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line? Surely the Jews' prayers will profit them nothing, for they reject the Christ, but that is not the question at hand.
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« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2012, 01:06:07 AM »

If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

Great point. 

At the same time, I think this applies to both sides.  Those claiming with certainty that Rabbinic Jews, or Muslims, or Mormons do worship the One True God should consider this as well.
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« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2012, 01:44:32 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...
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« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2012, 01:44:32 AM »

Pointless question, but no offense whatsoever! Orthodoxy needs to preach Orthodoxy because it is the correct and highest worship and knowledge of God. This is what a jew needs to hear, not something that appeals to them on a sentimental level. Christ never said that OT jews were not worshiping God, yet He came to do something different, and He was God The Son, too. Jews and gentiles are now on the same level. It doesn't matter what you are but what you believe, and nowadays there are almost as many beliefs as there are people. You can even find non-jews who convert to judaism. Problem is jews need to pay a bit more attention to what God is doing through history. By throwing this "Christ figure" into human history, God really caused the jews a serious "problem" (but it's a solution). And it's no wonder that the antichrist will be a jew, that some of the jews are so proud that they are willing to overturn history just so they can get to be "God's chosen" again. To the rest of the jews, really, accept Christ, why really hold on to judaism if you truly believe in a loving God? Just so you can be better than other people?

P.S. So, it seems that based on ethnicity, basically, the jews pride themselves and through rejecting Christ they think they are better than others.

Have you ever met a Jew or read anything by Rabbis?  There is so much to say...but so little chance it will matter...
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« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2012, 05:28:32 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.
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« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2012, 05:43:39 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.

Differently. You might want to check for example this site which tries to argue for their point of view.
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« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2012, 06:12:10 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.

Differently. You might want to check for example this site which tries to argue for their point of view.

Differently = Wrongly ?
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« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2012, 06:18:29 AM »

What confuses me about the Rabbis is some of them have the greatest minds yet they reject the Lord Jesus Christ, why? How come these great minds Jewish Scholars and Great Rabbis reject the Lord Jesus Christ ?.  Huh Huh It really baffles me a lot.

Because they don't think the Messiah will be God, for one thing...

How do they interpret those passages which speak about God in the OT visiting Abraham, Wrestling with Jacob, Angel of the Lord speaking as God and at times the Patriarchs start worshiping The Angel of the Lord, its quiet clear the ONLY person who is to receive worship is God. How do they explain all these?.

Differently. You might want to check for example this site which tries to argue for their point of view.

Differently = Wrongly ?

Yes. Google "Christianity" for more information.
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« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2012, 06:38:11 AM »

Yes, and God can make Christians out of stones, just as he can children of Israel. Look, these kind of self-congratulatory faux-question topics drive me crazy. Yes, the Jews are wrong to reject Jesus. You already knew that. But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.
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« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2012, 10:10:01 AM »

Very good, Keble.
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« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2012, 10:29:29 AM »

Has anyone studied Judaisms complete views of the verses and chapters which they reject referring to Christ ?.
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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2012, 01:41:53 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

You need to go back and read what you wrote. You explicitly equated your understanding of the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity to God.

No one around here has done that with Fr. Thom.

I was't not going to pile on you like Mario, but start with just some basic questions, but in the end the point would be the same.

Unfortunately however, you didn't get his point.
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« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.

Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line? Surely the Jews' prayers will profit them nothing, for they reject the Christ, but that is not the question at hand.
That's a red herring. That has nothing to do with "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God", because only the conception of "the One True God" exists in the Orthodox Church. So no they don't worship the same God that the Orthodox do. Honestly it really doesn't get any simpler than that.

And yes rejecting Christ has everything to do with it.
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« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2012, 03:31:05 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

You need to go back and read what you wrote. You explicitly equated your understanding of the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity to God.

No one around here has done that with Fr. Thom.

I was't not going to pile on you like Mario, but start with just some basic questions, but in the end the point would be the same.

Unfortunately however, you didn't get his point.
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« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2012, 05:17:45 PM »

600th viewer on this thread! Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2012, 05:44:25 PM »

600th viewer on this thread! Smiley

NVM!
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« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2012, 07:11:00 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
This would be a whole lot better said without the sanctimonious discourse.

EDIT: I'll take the partial bait, get back to me when you are done assuming things about myself and what I have read. kthx

In other words, you have no counterargument, because your position is untenable.
Not at all.

Being a modern day Jew is an active, even indirect, denial of the second person of the Holy Trinity. It's that simple.

This thread is about "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?" and I believe what I said to be true. I don't care about addressing your stacked pious babble and making a false assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about nor do I read the Scriptures or the Fathers enough. And honestly one could never spend too much time studying them.

Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line? Surely the Jews' prayers will profit them nothing, for they reject the Christ, but that is not the question at hand.
That's a red herring. That has nothing to do with "Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God", because only the conception of "the One True God" exists in the Orthodox Church. So no they don't worship the same God that the Orthodox do. Honestly it really doesn't get any simpler than that.

And yes rejecting Christ has everything to do with it.

By your argument, nobody worships the same God. I think you should read Keble's post and reflect upon it, unless of course, you are incapable of understanding it.
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« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2012, 07:15:02 PM »

That's exactly right. And since I'm God you are worshipping the wrong god! Repent at once you sanctimonious sinner or I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!
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« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2012, 07:17:22 PM »

That's exactly right. And since I'm God you are worshipping the wrong god! Repent at once you sanctimonious sinner or I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!

How pathetic your posting behavior has become.
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« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2012, 07:21:30 PM »

That's exactly right. And since I'm God you are worshipping the wrong god! Repent at once you sanctimonious sinner or I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you!

How pathetic your posting behavior has become.
no u

EDIT: Guess you didn't get the reference, just trying to inject some humor because I'm not changing what I believe so I guess you just have to deal with it.

Now if you excuse me I have an idol to go worship.
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« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2012, 08:49:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Do you know God perfectly or not? The question is simple. If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?
POST OF THE MONTH!!

The problem, is too many folks can only define their own relationship with God at the expense of other people's.  


What brought the early converts? Or the Samaritan woman? The book of the Acts and the Gospels are filled with pages of people who had no relationship with Christ and came to Him, how could they come to God if God didn't not call them previously? What, they worshiped the Devil? Nonsense.  We ALL worship the Devil whenever we judge our brothers and sisters, and I am just as guilty as the next in this, hence  the need for mercy  Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #85 on: September 01, 2012, 06:04:10 AM »

Has anyone extensively studied Jewish Apologetic's ? from prominent Jewish Rabbis such as Tovia Singer, etc.. ?
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« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2012, 04:39:53 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".
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« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2012, 07:50:09 PM »

Has anyone extensively studied Jewish Apologetic's ? from prominent Jewish Rabbis such as Tovia Singer, etc.. ?

Yes, I have Jewish uncle (by marriage).
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« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2012, 08:11:12 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.
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« Reply #89 on: September 02, 2012, 08:13:46 PM »

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

x and understanding of x two different things.

This can be a subtle debate to be sure, if one is always encountering everything only in virtue of their understanding of it. I am sure you could see where the problems would lie.

I ain't certainly up for discussing it right now as I've been up so long I feel like vomiting.
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« Reply #90 on: September 02, 2012, 08:32:01 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".
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« Reply #91 on: September 02, 2012, 08:50:21 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.
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« Reply #92 on: September 02, 2012, 08:56:11 PM »

I don't get it. How can you say Orthodox Christians worship an idol for saying that Muslims and Jews worship an idol? Ain't that like a contradiction or irony or something.
Apparently worshipping the Trinity is idolatry. But liberal Orthodoxy is pretty trendy so

It is hilariously ironic because those above love to idolize their little hero Fr Hopko as gospel.

Perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of God. What do you know of God more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the Son is begotten or how the Spirit proceeds? Can you tell me how the Father is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Triune? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the Son is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Theologian so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic God, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know Him imperfectly. What? Do you know God perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of His energies, their number, their effects upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the essence, or perhaps you can tell me how the lamb becomes the body of our Lord during the Liturgy. The Apostle Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about God, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of God is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of God is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true God on account of his imperfect understanding of God, when your very own understanding of God is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.

my gosh!!! forgive me Achronos, but I will read this as if it was said to me, and I have to say it is one of the most beautiful things I have read. its as humbling and as joyful as reading the book of Job and hearing the Lord's argument. GBU! Cavaradossi, certainly If I could know God perfectly there is no need to worship any other but me myself. but as it stands I can not even know myself as He knows me let alone know Him as He IS. your beautiful words above speak of His Glory and It is Infinite! How wonderful!!!
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« Reply #93 on: September 02, 2012, 09:05:02 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".
Yes.
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« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2012, 09:06:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does
. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.

Thank for providing some grounded reason on this thread.

Unfortunately some folks will always hide behind the apron strings of their inherited prejudices because its easier to push away than to come together.  Further, its like Alexander Dumas wrote in One Thousand and One Ghosts, "Those who can not build take pride in destroying."  We must build communities through Christian love, and build or Church through hospitable and merciful invitations, rather than the centrifugal forces of crude insinuations and antagonist theology.

Lord have His mercy.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2012, 09:08:08 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

Your own writing is fraught with such thinking.

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".

So what do you mean then, by 'worship the same concept of God'? That implies that we worship a concept of God, which we most certainly don't. Again, if we really are going to get into this, it would perhaps be helpful to see what you believe in terms of 'knowing' something, and whether things can be experienced before understanding them.
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« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2012, 09:08:26 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

Nobody is talking about an exhaustive account of the Trinity.

Modern day rabbinic jews do not worship the Trinity which IMHO is pretty essential to what was referred in the OP as "the one true God".

That's all it is.
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« Reply #97 on: September 02, 2012, 09:09:38 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*
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« Reply #98 on: September 02, 2012, 09:12:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does
. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.

Thank for providing some grounded reason on this thread.

Unfortunately some folks will always hide behind the apron strings of their inherited prejudices because its easier to push away than to come together.  Further, its like Alexander Dumas wrote in One Thousand and One Ghosts, "Those who can not build take pride in destroying."  We must build communities through Christian love, and build or Church through hospitable and merciful invitations, rather than the centrifugal forces of crude insinuations and antagonist theology.

Lord have His mercy.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Well since I worship Zeus now it really doesn't matter what my identification of God is, you know it'll get to the right God eventually.

Or else I'll get struck by a lightning bolt.
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« Reply #99 on: September 02, 2012, 09:12:18 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.
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« Reply #100 on: September 02, 2012, 09:13:44 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

"tasbeha.org'd" is an appropriate tag for many threads. Also: hilarious. Cheesy
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« Reply #101 on: September 02, 2012, 09:14:05 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

Nobody is talking about an exhaustive account of the Trinity.

Modern day rabbinic jews do not worship the Trinity which IMHO is pretty essential to what was referred in the OP as "the one true God".

That's all it is.

But I could turn that argument around on you. Suppose that I found fault with your understanding of the Trinity. Would I then be justified to say that when you invoke the name of the Father, and of the Son  and of the Holy Spirit, that you are only uttering empty words which refer to nothing, since you do not understand them correctly? Are you confident enough to say that you understand the Trinity in such a fashion that your understanding could be found to be without error under scrutiny?
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« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2012, 09:15:36 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

Your own writing is fraught with such thinking.

Thanks for your answer, Severian.  I wish I could help you out, but I am not God.  I suppose He alone knows who really worships Him and who does not.  I don't think it necessarily falls along the lines of religious affiliation though.  I think many Orthodox Jews are raised to hate Our Lord, but they don't know who He is.  They know the name Jesus, but do they know the Gospel message and have they actively rejected it? Knowing the name Jesus doesn't mean that people know who Jesus is.  We also know, as sad as it is to say, that even some of us who confess Christ with our lips are in fact full of darkness, and on the last day will be cast into hell. All that I know is that Our Lord "wants all humankind to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth" and that when he was lifted up on the Cross he "drew all men" to Himself.  How that all works out and even what that all means is a complete mystery to me. 
If they are worshipping anything other than the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, they aren't worshipping the One True God.

Ergo the "Orthodox understanding of the Trinity" (whatever that is) is the One True God.

Enjoy your god Achronos and Celticfan.

Worshipping the Trinity (God) is wrong? lol

I thought you were Orthodox, but you must be a non-Trinitarian protestant...or a fool. lol

Achronos was stating the Orthodox point of view. If you think Jews, Protestants, Muslims, etc, etc worship the same concept of god as us you must be misinformed. I don't know why you think it is wrong to point that out. It is cowardice and a flat out lie to say we are all the "Same".

So what do you mean then, by 'worship the same concept of God'? That implies that we worship a concept of God, which we most certainly don't. Again, if we really are going to get into this, it would perhaps be helpful to see what you believe in terms of 'knowing' something, and whether things can be experienced before understanding them.

English is my second language...geez. Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.
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« Reply #103 on: September 02, 2012, 09:15:57 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
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« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2012, 09:17:20 PM »

All we said is Trinitarians are different in their understanding of God than non-Trinitarians, and we get a bunch of know-it-alls trying to say that is a "concept". Are you people that bored? Or are you so bull headed you jump on a mis-typed phrase?
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« Reply #105 on: September 02, 2012, 09:17:37 PM »

Is the one true God the Trinity or God the Father?
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« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2012, 09:18:00 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

Well if you turn to Hiwot's translation of the Book of Job and perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of understanding. What do you know of understanding more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the word is begotten or how the writing proceeds? Can you tell me how the interpretation is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Trinderstanding? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the word is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Writer so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic understanding, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know understanding imperfectly. What? Do you know understand perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of its interpretations, their words, their writings upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the pen, or perhaps you can tell me how the ink becomes the body of our udnerstanding during the Book. The Author Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about understanding, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of understanding is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of understanding is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true understanding on account of his imperfect understanding of understanding, when your very own understanding of understanding is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.
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« Reply #107 on: September 02, 2012, 09:18:51 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
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« Reply #108 on: September 02, 2012, 09:20:41 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.

What about pagans?
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« Reply #109 on: September 02, 2012, 09:20:58 PM »

Is the one true God the Trinity or God the Father?

Orthodox doctrine holds that God's unity or oneness is also not merely the mathematical or philosophical concept of "one". The Church teaches God as the Trinity. One God, three persons, Father, Son, And Holy Spirit, each of whom ‘dwells' in the other two, by virtue of a perpetual movement of love. God is not only a unity but a union.
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« Reply #110 on: September 02, 2012, 09:21:33 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

Sorry for betraying you Zeus, I'll make my offering to you once I bribe Hades.
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« Reply #111 on: September 02, 2012, 09:24:00 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.

What about pagans?

No. They do not worship the God Who revealed Himself in time through the patriarchs and prophets.
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« Reply #112 on: September 02, 2012, 09:24:50 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

Well if you turn to Hiwot's translation of the Book of Job and perhaps if you spent more time studying the Scriptures and the Fathers, you would not be so smug about your self-professed knowledge of understanding. What do you know of understanding more than you know of an ant or a grain of sand? Can you tell me how the word is begotten or how the writing proceeds? Can you tell me how the interpretation is without beginning and cause? Can you tell me what it means to be Trinderstanding? Yes, perhaps you can tell me these things, and I can tell you how it is that the word is both created and uncreated, and as Gregory the Writer so wisely wrote, we can go mad prying into things which we cannot know. Yet you would foolishly prefer your puffed up idol of knowledge to the true and ineffable trihypostatic understanding, Whom you presume to understand, while all the same passing judgment upon those who know understanding imperfectly. What? Do you know understand perfectly? If so, then perhaps you can give me a comprehensive account of its interpretations, their words, their writings upon creation, and how they ineffably proceed from the pen, or perhaps you can tell me how the ink becomes the body of our udnerstanding during the Book. The Author Paul says, 'now we know in part.' Tell me, do you know in part perfectly? If you reverently confess to not knowing these things about understanding, and avoid such sophistries as knowing in part perfectly, then indeed your knowledge of understanding is dark and imperfect. Then if your knowledge of understanding is imperfect, how can you say that this or that man does not worship the true understanding on account of his imperfect understanding of understanding, when your very own understanding of understanding is also incomplete? Recognize in humility your inability to know these things, or else it will bring you to ruin.

LOL! cheers! laugh
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« Reply #113 on: September 02, 2012, 09:25:29 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.


English is my second language...geez. Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.

I don't meant what I wrote, I meant something else, my english just came out that way.

Forgive the foreigner, massa'. I never meant to say what you accused me of, it was a bad use of words, I've told you that. You keep proving you are arrogant by not accepting that and ending it.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 09:28:09 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

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« Reply #114 on: September 02, 2012, 09:26:35 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
That forum has been a disaster since as long as I can remember. Things have only gotten worse now that Fr. Peter has left (not that I can blame him). The posters there are (with all possible respect) ignorant and argumentative. The moderation on that forum is horrible now and you will be hard pressed to find any thread which is not completely permeated by invective and bickering.
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« Reply #115 on: September 02, 2012, 09:27:13 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
That forum has been a disaster since as long as I can remember. Things have only gotten worse now that Fr. Peter has left (not that I can blame him). The posters there are (with all possible respect) ignorant and argumentative. The moderation on that forum is horrible now and you will be hard pressed to find any thread which is not completely permeated by invective and bickering.
How is that any different than here?
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« Reply #116 on: September 02, 2012, 09:28:32 PM »

I am not directing this thread at any particular individual(s) as I say this, but...

This thread is an awful disaster. I wish I could delete it.

Next time any thread goes the way of this one, I'll just say it got Tasbeha.org'd. *ZING!*

I've only lightly browsed tasbeha. Can you splain?
That forum has been a disaster since as long as I can remember. Things have only gotten worse now that Fr. Peter has left (not that I can blame him). The posters there are (with all possible respect) ignorant and argumentative. The moderation on that forum is horrible now and you will be hard pressed to find any thread which is not completely permeated by invective and bickering.
How is that any different than here?

+1
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« Reply #117 on: September 02, 2012, 09:28:41 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

No, that is incorrect. Heretics are so called because they have made the choice to understand God incorrectly, not because they can be shown to direct their worship at a different thing entirely. Perhaps if you were not so confused as to whether something can be experienced prior to understanding that thing (as the Fathers taught), you would not be having this problem.

Sorry for betraying you Zeus, I'll make my offering to you once I bribe Hades.

Still haven't abandoned your childishness, I see.
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« Reply #118 on: September 02, 2012, 09:38:08 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol
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« Reply #119 on: September 02, 2012, 09:40:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

But saying whether or not the worship the "wrong" God is an ontological question you cannot answer. Does any mistake in what you believe about got mean that you are worshiping something else entirely? Then surely you all worship the wrong God' nobody's ideation of God is perfect.

It's all very gratifying to believe that God only hears you and not others, that your worship works and that nobody else's does
. But really, identifying heresy means nothing more than saying "we can't work together because what we believe is too different." It's presumption to believe that God feels the same way.

Thank for providing some grounded reason on this thread.

Unfortunately some folks will always hide behind the apron strings of their inherited prejudices because its easier to push away than to come together.  Further, its like Alexander Dumas wrote in One Thousand and One Ghosts, "Those who can not build take pride in destroying."  We must build communities through Christian love, and build or Church through hospitable and merciful invitations, rather than the centrifugal forces of crude insinuations and antagonist theology.

Lord have His mercy.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Well since I worship Zeus now it really doesn't matter what my identification of God is, you know it'll get to the right God eventually.

Or else I'll get struck by a lightning bolt.

you mean the church must have a way of filtering the reveled Truth from falsehood, like rejecting the so called 'orthodoxy' of every other new age hippie who claims to be orthodox christian while he/she lights a candle before Krishna? whatever do you mean?! its an outrage! we should be more welcoming to all sorts of heresies out there and endorse them in the name of Christian love. angel and sing kumbayah.
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« Reply #120 on: September 02, 2012, 09:43:00 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol
I actually never guessed from reading your posts that you spoke English a 2nd language. I only find out just now.
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« Reply #121 on: September 02, 2012, 09:46:12 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.
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« Reply #122 on: September 02, 2012, 09:46:24 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

No, that is incorrect. Heretics are so called because they have made the choice to understand God incorrectly, not because they can be shown to direct their worship at a different thing entirely. Perhaps if you were not so confused as to whether something can be experienced prior to understanding that thing (as the Fathers taught), you would not be having this problem.
But Muslims and Jews worship a different God than we do. It's that simple.

Quote
Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.
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« Reply #123 on: September 02, 2012, 09:48:02 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.

But considering Jesus Christ is God and since Jews, even indirectly, reject that then no they don't worship the same God. That goes for Muslims as well.
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« Reply #124 on: September 02, 2012, 09:55:06 PM »

Nobody in his right mind should ever confess to worshipping a concept of God.

I agree with you, and no one ever confessed so. So I don't see the point behind your irrelevant statement....

It really annoys me when people make ridiculous accusation out of the blue with no reason. So I really hope you misunderstood myself and/or Achronos. Because we aren't doing/confessing what you and Orthonorm are arrogantly accusing us of. Not in the slightest, and I'm insulted you even think we worship a "concept".

You might be correct in your bolded portion and not be wrong is describing it as such. That was my point.

And I would hazard to guess you couldn't elaborate much more on my point.

And the real rub or arrogance is that either one of your think you probably could give something approaching an exhaustive account of "Orthodox Trinitarian thought". (And if it is not exhaustive at what point to you draw the line, as Mario says, about the appropriately approximate of something in someone else's heart?)

Also,

What Mario wrote was actually somewhat of a paraphrase of the response of a man Orthodox refer to as a Saint about the incredible difficulties wrought when people start "thinking" about the nature of the Trinity.

Hope that doesn't sound harsh. Tired and now looking like I ain't going to sleep for a while longer.

No one is "thinking" about the nature of anything. The only "thinking" going on is you "thinking" you know what we meant. You people blew what was said way out of proportion, and then when you were proven that you misunderstood us you arrogantly tried to prove you were right.

I don't feel the need to debate theology with you, because this isn't a theological discussion. It's simply that you arrogantly can't admit you attack someone on something you grossly misunderstood. We believe the same things you and Cavara...whatever, believe. Now go about your sleeping, because you're just annoying me.

There is no misunderstanding here. You yourself have written such words about worshipping concepts, and the entire implication of your argument is that our worship of something is dependent upon our understanding of that thing. But this does not fit in well with the Scriptures. Notice, for example, that Jesus never says to the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she does not worship God; he says that the Samaritans worship what they do not know. The same is the case with the Jews, Muslims, and all Heretics.
Since we don't understand everything correctly then we worship what we do not know anyway, so there aren't any heretics at all since we all worship the same thing.

No, that is incorrect. Heretics are so called because they have made the choice to understand God incorrectly, not because they can be shown to direct their worship at a different thing entirely. Perhaps if you were not so confused as to whether something can be experienced prior to understanding that thing (as the Fathers taught), you would not be having this problem.
But Muslims and Jews worship a different God than we do. It's that simple.

Quote
Okay I mean that the Jews don't believe in the Trinity therefore, they cannot possibly worship the same God as us. Bam the end. Grow up dude, you knew what I meant.

No, it really is not that simple. Adam and Eve worshipped the Trinity without understanding it, as did all of the prophets and patriarchs. We in fact worship the Trinity without understanding it (all we can claim is that we understand it better than they do). The object of the Jews' worship has remained the same, but they have not come to know Him in truth.
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« Reply #125 on: September 02, 2012, 09:57:39 PM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.

But considering Jesus Christ is God and since Jews, even indirectly, reject that then no they don't worship the same God. That goes for Muslims as well.

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.
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« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2012, 09:58:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

About this whole Muslims and Jews thing..


I will reiterate only once more the point I made twice before.  Perhaps we would be best to distinguish between worship and Salvation? How does worshiping God automatically equate with Salvation exactly? Further, how can folks come into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ as God if they've had not prior relationship with God to speak of? Did converts to the Church somehow NOT worship God before coming to the Church? And if it is God who these feel brought them into the Church, and yet folks are accusing them of essentially worshiping either nothing at best, and the Devil at worst, are you then suggesting that the Devil would lead people to the Church?

In my opinion, we can say that anyone of any religion outside of the Church, even folks of "no religion" could be still able to worship or experience God, however, this should not be confused with Salvation through the forgiveness of Sins and the gift of Eternal Life which is found exclusively in the Church.  I would myself prefer not to speculate about the validity of any other person's relationship or lack there of with God, because I can't speak on God's part in that, I can't know where He actually stands on the matter.  I can only pray about my own sins and hope for the best about those of others.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #127 on: September 03, 2012, 02:21:33 AM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol
I actually never guessed from reading your posts that you spoke English a 2nd language. I only find out just now.

Yep, I'm Norse. Tongue
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« Reply #128 on: September 03, 2012, 02:22:34 AM »

I like how I agree with Cavaradossi on theology. He just hates me for being mistakes at English. lol

Not at all Smiley. I think we must disagree on whether understanding something is a prerequisite to worshipping it. If I were to be asked whether the Jews worship the God Who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, Who revealed himself to Moses, Noah, Elijah, etc., I would say that they do. But if I were to be asked if they understand said God, my answer would be that they do not. It seems that your answer to both would be no, and I'm not sure if I understand exactly what leads you to that conclusion.

To an extant I agree with you. But where do you draw the line? That is the question.  Wink
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« Reply #129 on: September 03, 2012, 02:53:59 AM »

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.

I think this is an excellent argument, but how does it square with your previous comment:
If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

I thought this indicated that it was impossible for us to make proclamations, due to not knowing God perfectly and what, if any, lines to draw.  But you appear to have drawn one.
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« Reply #130 on: September 03, 2012, 03:21:20 AM »

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.

I think this is an excellent argument, but how does it square with your previous comment:
If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

I thought this indicated that it was impossible for us to make proclamations, due to not knowing God perfectly and what, if any, lines to draw.  But you appear to have drawn one.

I don't really see how so. I never drew any real cut off point. It is entirely possible that those who know nothing of Christ could still worship God in ignorance, but without ever being able to name Him or gain any understanding of Him. The only thing that I denied (perhaps somewhat too hastily and without enough qualification) is that pagans worship God, because in their case, they normally worship idols—deities fashioned after created things, such as the sun and the moon—although under extraordinary circumstances, pagans may come to worship some sort of transcendent or unknown deity, at which point they might be said to worship God in ignorance as well. St. Paul, being ever clever, manages to play upon this idea in his sermon upon the Areopagus.

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Now to be clear, I'm not arguing that it is impossible to distinguish between God and idols or created things. We know clearly that sun, moon and thunder deities are not God. But in discussing Islam, Judaism and Christianity, we are dealing then with religions which recognize some supreme being (in fact, a supreme being which is associated with causing the same set of historical events) Who is not merely some idol. That is where the line gets blurry. If we say that the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' (whatever that means) is the only true God, then why must we stop there? People understand the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' differently. This standard is inadmissible, because then it would mean that everybody has a different God, since nobody understands God in the same way; and then, at best, only one person would worship the true God, if that many. But once we admit any shades of grey, then we have to admit for consistency that proposing any sort of cut off line is a rather unjustifiable proposition, in my honest opinion.
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« Reply #131 on: September 03, 2012, 03:29:43 AM »



This has nothing to do with the Jews or Muslims worshiping the same God in darkness. Both, even indirectly, reject Jesus Christ as God thus worshiping a different god than us and furthermore not the "One True God" that the OP points out.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere and there is, it's Jesus Christ.

You're seriously going to tell me that those that actually do reject Jesus Christ as God still worship the same God? You're just wrong.
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« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2012, 03:32:17 AM »

It is entirely possible that those who know nothing of Christ could still worship and somehow know of God in ignorance, but without ever being able to name Him or understand Him.
I have no issue with this. But again we are talking about Jews and Muslims here, if we want to get specific lets go back to "modern-day Rabbinic Jews" that Severian mentioned.
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« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2012, 11:30:10 AM »



This has nothing to do with the Jews or Muslims worshiping the same God in darkness. Both, even indirectly, reject Jesus Christ as God thus worshiping a different god than us and furthermore not the "One True God" that the OP points out.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere and there is, it's Jesus Christ.

You're seriously going to tell me that those that actually do reject Jesus Christ as God still worship the same God? You're just wrong.

Yeah, ok, you go enjoy your God whose ontology is determined by what people think of him. Even the example from John 4 clearly shows that you are wrong, because the Samaritans, who rejected God's command to worship in Jerusalem, were still said to worship God without knowing Him. This is even moreso the case with the Jews, who have rejected the great work which God has wrought on the cross. They, like the Samaritans, worship God while actively rejecting his continued revelation.

When you can come up with any argument that doesn't involve saying the same thing over and over ad nauseam, with your head planted firmly in the sand and some other organ at the terminal end of your digestive tract doing the taking, let me know. (Perhaps a response to Keble's fine post on page 2 of this thread would be a good start).
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« Reply #134 on: September 03, 2012, 08:02:02 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.
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« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2012, 08:17:35 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
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« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2012, 08:20:54 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
Well my knowledge of Trinderstanding would be a whole lot better if I read more of Gregory the Writer and the Samitarian Author's "The Unkowingness of the unknown understanding"
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« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2012, 08:32:04 PM »

I made my own Trinity today. Ranch, Ketchup and cheese sauce as one condiment for my fries. I don't know how it tastes so good all I know is Im not prying into the mystery.

It's not my favorite thing but it's what I had available.
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« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2012, 08:37:37 PM »

Now I'm hungry. 
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« Reply #139 on: September 03, 2012, 08:44:26 PM »

Now I'm hungry. 
So I had hot wings, fries, bread, chocolate milk, Spaghetti-Os, and now a sandwich with Hawaiian Rolls.

Aaaaaaaand I've lost 12 lbs last week.
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« Reply #140 on: September 03, 2012, 08:56:19 PM »

Lost them how? Did you get bit by a shark?


(kidding)
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« Reply #141 on: September 03, 2012, 08:56:45 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
Well my knowledge of Trinderstanding would be a whole lot better if I read more of Gregory the Writer and the Samitarian Author's "The Unkowingness of the unknown understanding"

For your reading pleasure!
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« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2012, 08:59:35 PM »

Lost them how? Did you get bit by a shark?


(kidding)
No clue. I'm at 140 right now.

It helps that my stomach is a machine and I have a super fast metabolism.
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« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2012, 09:00:34 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?
Well my knowledge of Trinderstanding would be a whole lot better if I read more of Gregory the Writer and the Samitarian Author's "The Unkowingness of the unknown understanding"

For your reading pleasure!

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« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2012, 09:41:14 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?

Some people just love to watch the forum go up in flames.  Cool
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« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2012, 09:43:19 PM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Do you even understand what it means to be triworshiping?

Some people just love to watch the forum go up in flames.  Cool
I would have loved to see de_nuke go up in flames but a counter-terrorist defused my bomb. Sad
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« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2012, 12:00:15 AM »



But they don't worship a God in Trinity.

That. Is. The. Whole. Point.

Foolishness. Do you worship God as Trinity? Would you be comfortable submitting a summary of your understanding of Trinitarian doctrine for us to scrutinize in order to see if you really worship the Trinity? I would like to see what you think the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' is. Let's see if you worship the true God by your own standards, or if your worship is directed at a different God than the one worshipped by the saints. Come on, Achronos, if you have the guts, why don't you post a Triadological and Christological statement of faith, so we can assess whether you worship the true God? The time for you to put up or shut up has come, Achronos. If you really think you're such a genius, let's just see if you really worship the right God.
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« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2012, 12:09:33 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Not that this post is directed towards anyone specifically, I am just making a general statement.
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« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2012, 12:15:23 AM »

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« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2012, 12:17:08 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Do you even understand what it means to be trihuman?
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« Reply #150 on: September 04, 2012, 12:19:22 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Do you even understand what it means to be trihuman?
Do you even understand what it means to be trihumanontologicalinity?

Edit: nvm
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« Reply #151 on: September 04, 2012, 12:29:21 AM »



In other words, no. Why such reluctance? Come on, surely if you have the confidence to say such things, then you should have an understanding of the Trinity and of Christ which is free from error. Tell us, o wise Achronos, how is it if men are said to have one essence, yet differ in hypostases, can the Trinity also be said to be of one essence yet be of three different hypostases without there being three Gods, unlike the multiplicity which is found amongst us men? How can Christ, our God, who is said to be divine and man, not be divided by virtue of being united out of two natures which are unlike each other? Or perhaps you should explain to me why is it that it is permissible that say that the Holy Spirit is through the Son and that the Spirit belongs to the Son, but not that the Spirit is from the Son? Since you seem to posses knowledge of the True God beyond your years, such questions should pose few problems for you. Show us, great philosophaster, your mastery of theology which allows you to worship Him in Truth, free from error, since those who are in error cannot worship the True God, the True God Whom you so confidently claim to worship.
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« Reply #152 on: September 04, 2012, 01:07:17 AM »

They in fact do worship the same God, since we know that the preincarnate Word is the One who revealed Himself in the old testament theophanies to the prophets and patriarchs. They simply cannot comprehend Him and the fulness of his works, and so they worship Him in darkness, never knowing what the true object of their worship is.

I think this is an excellent argument, but how does it square with your previous comment:
If you do not know God perfectly, how can you judge what level of imperfection it takes for one's worship not to be directed towards the same God? Where do you draw the line? Can you draw a line?

I thought this indicated that it was impossible for us to make proclamations, due to not knowing God perfectly and what, if any, lines to draw.  But you appear to have drawn one.

I don't really see how so. I never drew any real cut off point. It is entirely possible that those who know nothing of Christ could still worship God in ignorance, but without ever being able to name Him or gain any understanding of Him. The only thing that I denied (perhaps somewhat too hastily and without enough qualification) is that pagans worship God, because in their case, they normally worship idols—deities fashioned after created things, such as the sun and the moon—although under extraordinary circumstances, pagans may come to worship some sort of transcendent or unknown deity, at which point they might be said to worship God in ignorance as well. St. Paul, being ever clever, manages to play upon this idea in his sermon upon the Areopagus.

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Now to be clear, I'm not arguing that it is impossible to distinguish between God and idols or created things. We know clearly that sun, moon and thunder deities are not God. But in discussing Islam, Judaism and Christianity, we are dealing then with religions which recognize some supreme being (in fact, a supreme being which is associated with causing the same set of historical events) Who is not merely some idol. That is where the line gets blurry. If we say that the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' (whatever that means) is the only true God, then why must we stop there? People understand the 'Orthodox understanding of the Trinity' differently. This standard is inadmissible, because then it would mean that everybody has a different God, since nobody understands God in the same way; and then, at best, only one person would worship the true God, if that many. But once we admit any shades of grey, then we have to admit for consistency that proposing any sort of cut off line is a rather unjustifiable proposition, in my honest opinion.

Thanks for your response.  I agree with your assessment for the most part, and I think your pagan argument does quite well in explaining some concerns. 

In most cases (particularly those from or relating to monotheism) it may be best to assume that they are praying to the One True God, even if incorrectly or not in "fullness."  But without knowing God perfectly, or if/when to draw a line, doesn't that acknowledge that in our limited capacity to understand, there may be a line that God draws?  Do we know with certainty where prayers go?  Can they "miss" or be diverted? 

Silly questions maybe, but I wonder about why Jews and Muslims (in a different sense) rejected Christ. I think a simple explanation of people getting it wrong is insufficient.  And the idea that they are just less right, although you weren't minimising the importance by implying salvation, is a bit problematic. 

As you said, you did not draw a real cut off point.  But one could exist, right?  And it seemed as if you confidently stated that Rabbinic Jews do worship the One True God, even if we're not entirely sure that they do.

My apologies for this bit of ramble, but there may be some relevant points in there somewhere.
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« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2012, 01:54:53 AM »

This entire thread epitomizes the sad state of humanity.

Not that this post is directed towards anyone specifically, I am just making a general statement.

 laugh
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« Reply #154 on: September 04, 2012, 01:58:29 AM »

In most cases (particularly those from or relating to monotheism) it may be best to assume that they are praying to the One True God, even if incorrectly or not in "fullness."  But without knowing God perfectly, or if/when to draw a line, doesn't that acknowledge that in our limited capacity to understand, there may be a line that God draws?  Do we know with certainty where prayers go?  Can they "miss" or be diverted? 

Silly questions maybe, but I wonder about why Jews and Muslims (in a different sense) rejected Christ. I think a simple explanation of people getting it wrong is insufficient.  And the idea that they are just less right, although you weren't minimising the importance by implying salvation, is a bit problematic. 

Certainly, I would say that the prayers of Jews and Muslims, while directed towards God, probably profit them nothing. Outside of grace, there is no life to be found, only death by the law. Saying that they worship God in no way implies that it is beneficial for them to do so, because as Jesus points out in the passage with the Samaritan woman, "the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." Without worshipping in spirit and in truth, their worship, while it is directed towards God, would be like the worship of the Samaritans. I oppose the idea that not knowing God precludes worshipping Him not out of any hope that living outside of Christ can be beneficial or profitable, but because I find troubling the pessimistic idea that those who do not know God cannot direct their worship towards Him unknowingly, or seek after Him, because I am inclined to believe, following the fathers, that mankind is inherently designed to seek after God.
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« Reply #155 on: September 04, 2012, 03:22:06 AM »



Yes let's keep continuing this ridiculous unimportant argument over semantics. I'm done dude. You made your insinuation that I was worshipping a concept which was wrong, and plenty of other members knew exactly what I was talking about in the context but you would like to bicker over its meaning.

You deliberately misunderstood me and celticfan, and continue to distort what I believe. Why don't you apologize for misunderstanding? Or are you too arrogant in doing that and turning into a pseudo-theological discussion, because that's not what this is.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity so it is impossible to worship the same God as us. THE END.

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

I'll make sure I become more humble as to not cause myself to ruin, like you care anyway.
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« Reply #156 on: September 04, 2012, 03:31:22 AM »

Tell us, o wise Achronos, how is it if men are said to have one essence, yet differ in hypostases, can the Trinity also be said to be of one essence yet be of three different hypostases without there being three Gods

The anointed royal priest of Adonai Elohim in Mesiach Yeshua, Nicholas, taketh the stand.

Herewidth and hereforeafter, forthwidth within a fourth, I bear wifness that thae God makes thae essence, thae essence makes no God. For one is God of propare name, and that is the Father, and two are God aen adjective by virtue of that Pataernity.

Fore thae strait-tongued John Damascus saith: It is better to introduce ain associate to God thaen if thou mutilateth the most high.
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« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2012, 03:36:52 AM »

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

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« Reply #158 on: September 04, 2012, 03:50:30 AM »

Lol.

This topic bores me while I wait for my stimulating argument with admiralnick on taxes.

Maybe we can tax the apes too.
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« Reply #159 on: September 04, 2012, 05:01:23 AM »

This thread is so Tasbeha.org'd. Pleeeeease can you now start a thread about how we shouldn't celebrate Thanksgiving, Severian? I want to leave this board in a huff, too. Cheesy
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« Reply #160 on: September 04, 2012, 10:08:20 AM »



Yes let's keep continuing this ridiculous unimportant argument over semantics. I'm done dude. You made your insinuation that I was worshipping a concept which was wrong, and plenty of other members knew exactly what I was talking about in the context but you would like to bicker over its meaning.

You deliberately misunderstood me and celticfan, and continue to distort what I believe. Why don't you apologize for misunderstanding? Or are you too arrogant in doing that and turning into a pseudo-theological discussion, because that's not what this is.

Because you have not abandoned the implications of your incorrect argument.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity so it is impossible to worship the same God as us. THE END.

This simple argument must really impress you, since you have repeated it so many times.

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

I was not aware that I owned any books written by father Thomas Hopko, although I have heard that he is a honorable priest of God who is quite well-read.
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« Reply #161 on: September 04, 2012, 10:26:43 AM »


Let me add some spice to the mix, as I take a turn at stirring the pot....

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  Matthew 7:15


I wouldn't dare to presume to know even a smidgen about God....only what He has deemed to share with us....and I don't even know all of that.

However, I do have a perfunctory understanding of the above quoted statements.

Since we are arguing about the Trinity, let's just take God the Father....the One Person of the Trinity that the Jews and Muslims claim to know and worship.  Christ clearly states that the only way to the Father, is through Him.  Therefore, it would lead us to believe that if one denies the existence of the Son, then they are lost on their path and can't find Father, because they need to turn right and go through the Son, but, they have turned left at that proverbial fork in the road.

This is not to say that they never "knew" the True God, however, when God said turn right they purposefully turned left....because they anticipated a fiery Messiah brandishing a sword, who would confirm their superiority over all mankind....but, Christ came and preached peace and equality of all.  This idea clashed with their personal interpretation of what the Messiah would be, and they knowingly rejected Him.

Islam also claims to be aware of God, the god of Abraham, however, with Muhammad who claimed to have "heard" God and written down His words, they also veered off the path.....by knowingly rejecting Christ as the Son of God.  ...and how can anyone claim to be sure that Islam follows the True God, when Muhammad himself did not recognize the source of the voices he had heard....and only attributed them to God after his friends suggested the idea to him.  Therefore, might we not also conclude that perhaps Muhammad did not in fact, hear God, but, a demon whose goal was to deceive and draw people away from God?

The only people who have a "right" to be confused about God, are those who populate remote areas of the planet, and who have not yet heard the Good News....the others, if they do not follow Christ, have completely veered off path.

However, many of us who do follow Christ, have also veered off the path....because we have diluted the teaching of the True Church in order to fit our current lifestyles.  This is true of organized Christian Churches, and of Christians of all denominations.  While we can easily point out how Protestants no longer follow the truth, and clearly state where Roman Catholicism has sidestepped, we as Orthodox Christians also fall far short of the mark in our daily lives, words and actions.


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« Reply #162 on: September 04, 2012, 03:50:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

So if knowing God in any way is an exclusive to the Church, then how do folks from outside find the Church and a relationship with Christ in the first place? They are blindly groping around in their sins and worship of devils until by sheer accident they stumble and bump into God as if He were a coffee table in the dark on the way to the bathroom at night? The argument that folks here are asserting is not whether or not Muslims and Jews worship the Trinity, that argument is of course well settled.

Quote
Now we hear with wicked Jews and the unrighteous Ishmaelites, who being without understanding say God is one person and one body, they are of a blind heart.
Ethiopian Anaphora of Saint Mary

Clearly the Jewish and Muslim conception of God is in error, and as the Ethiopian Fathers hear very clearly explain, "is without understanding."  This understanding we know is revealed in synergy with the Grace of God found only in the Orthodox Church. However, we have yet to answer the question, what brings people from outside the Church inside the Church in the first place? If folks can have zero relationship with God outside of the Grace of the Church, then how can we understand how they come to the Church in the first place? Isn't it written in the Gospel of John chapter 6:

Quote
Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.


I do not think anyone is trying to suggest that Muslims or Jews or anyone else outside of the Church has Salvation or the forgiveness of sins.  I think people like myself are just trying to argue that some folks outside of the Church can have a relationship with God which will bring them into the Church.  Saying that some Muslims or Jews worship or know God is not to say that ALL Muslims or ALL Jews or that all of Islam or all of Judaism is somehow correct, righteous, or saving.  Rather, it is simply to assert the obvious, as to God Almighty none of us humans in our limited perspective can possibly know in any concrete way just exactly where God by His own wisdom is NOT.  That, seems to me, to be entirely His own business, and not worth our speculating if it is only to drive the point of divisions further.  Christian love is to invite folks into the Church to find Christ and be part of His Body, not to continually use Christ as a wedge to make distinctions between man and man, the "I love Jesus more than so-and-so approach"

Let us then pray mutually for us all, in and especially outside and in-between the Church.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2012, 06:45:17 PM »

So if knowing God in any way is an exclusive to the Church, then how do folks from outside find the Church and a relationship with Christ in the first place? They are blindly groping around in their sins and worship of devils until by sheer accident they stumble and bump into God as if He were a coffee table in the dark on the way to the bathroom at night?

If I may take a crack at this, as I believe I broached it in my earlier post (#56), particularly here (emphasis added):

Quote from: me
I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs.

The key is that they come to embrace the truth about our Lord Jesus Christ, and in doing so place themselves outside of the "orthodoxy" of their faiths. How they do so is no different than how any of us do so: No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).
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« Reply #164 on: September 04, 2012, 07:21:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



The flipside of this is that I have also known Muslims (no Jews, though I know fewer Jews now than I used to) who, as far as I could tell (which is not very far, admittedly, but how well can or should you gauge such things about casual friends?) seemed to be at least guided by the Holy Spirit to a much greater degree than I could ever claim to be. The key to those peoples' lives, however, is that they worshiped outside of the bounds of Islamic orthodoxy which would have disallowed them a great many of the beliefs they eventually came to hold regarding the divinity of Christ, the reality of His crucifixion and resurrection, etc. I have no doubt that this is probably also true of some Jews, even though I don't personally know any who have come to embrace Christian beliefs (I know some "Jews for Jesus" or "Hebrew Christian" types, but I think that's an entirely different animal/Frankenstein-like monster).

So, if folks are just a bit less Muslim but not Christian they have a relationship with the Holy Spirit? See this is substantive progress in the dialogue. Smiley Does the same count for Jews? Protestants and Catholics? So how exactly can we explain that folks outside of Orthodox Christian baptism can receive the Grace of the Holy Spirit and yet also affirm the exclusivity of Orthodox covenant as the only relationship with God as asserted by several folks on this thread?

stay blessed,
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« Reply #165 on: September 04, 2012, 07:49:07 PM »

So, if folks are just a bit less Muslim but not Christian they have a relationship with the Holy Spirit?

No, I wouldn't put it that way. Rather, it is a statement about the possibility for people outside of the Church (individuals) to come to the truth that is preached within and through/by the Church, without formally entering it. In other words, before I was Orthodox I still had to get to a point of understanding and believing in Orthodoxy. Thus I wasn't baptized into new beliefs, but rather into full communion with the place where those truths already stood since the beginning of the faith. So it would be wrong to categorically say that those outside of union with the Church cannot do the same that I have already done. Rather, the distinction I'm making is that while we can say that Jew or a Muslim may worship the true God, they do so necessarily at least somewhat outside of the bounds of their own religion, as its stated orthodoxy (i.e., those things that Jews or Muslims or whoever affirm that make them NOT Christians) denies, to some degree or another, the truth. This is why I put the extracted portion of that post in a larger context regarding what non-Christians affirm and deny about God -- not because God changes according to our understanding of Him, but because when people go out of their way to purposely reject the truth about God, then I think it's fair to say that they don't worship Him. But not every Muslim or Jew or whatever does that. There are many who would affirm the truth that we openly affirm, were their circumstances different (e.g., if they learned the gospel from committed Orthodox evangelists, and not polemical anti-Christian writings of their own traditions). And there are many more who would like to convert, but cannot for whatever reason (e.g., no church in their country, as in the case of a Saudi acquaintance of mine). So they live as Christians internally, and I do not judge them because they do not have academic or other knowledge of the Trinity or whatever.

In short: Non-Christians may worship God, but I am not comfortable saying that any random non-Christian, maintaining an out-and-out rejection of our faith in favor of the blasphemies to which they are accustomed, is doing so merely by the virtue of their being only one God in the first place. This is the "popular monotheism" idea that I had thought was completely rejected by Orthodox, and at any rate remains completely rejected by me regardless. What we believe and affirm (and reject) about God must matter as well, not just that we get some abstract number or concept right.

Quote
See this is substantive progress in the dialogue. Smiley Does the same count for Jews? Protestants and Catholics? So how exactly can we explain that folks outside of Orthodox Christian baptism can receive the Grace of the Holy Spirit and yet also affirm the exclusivity of Orthodox covenant as the only relationship with God as asserted by several folks on this thread?

See above. Those who are outside of the Church may affirm the truths that are affirmed within it, while not (yet) being in communion within it. This does not provide a loophole of any kind, but rather explains how it is that those who are outside of the church may come to God despite their own limitations.
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« Reply #166 on: September 04, 2012, 08:57:24 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Thus I wasn't baptized into new beliefs, but rather into full communion with the place where those truths already stood since the beginning of the faith. So it would be wrong to categorically say that those outside of union with the Church cannot do the same that I have already done. Rather, the distinction I'm making is that while we can say that Jew or a Muslim may worship the true God, they do so necessarily at least somewhat outside of the bounds of their own religion, as its stated orthodoxy (i.e., those things that Jews or Muslims or whoever affirm that make them NOT Christians) denies, to some degree or another, the truth.
In short: Non-Christians may worship God,

This is again progress in the discussion.  By worship, could we agree that we are talking about a tangible and direct relationship with God personally, not conceptually?  The Gospel of John chapter 6 didn't say that the concepts of God, or the noble truths of the Church theology brought people to Christ, it said that the Father directly draws all to Christ.  So we are drawn by God first, and then come to understand the logistics of this calling through learning the rules and explanations.  So could we all agree that in worshiping (i.e., directly knowing God in a personal way through the Spirit) God folks outside the Church are brought in?

Quote
but I am not comfortable saying that any random non-Christian, maintaining an out-and-out rejection of our faith in favor of the blasphemies to which they are accustomed, is doing so merely by the virtue of their being only one God in the first place. This is the "popular monotheism" idea that I had thought was completely rejected by Orthodox, and at any rate remains completely rejected by me regardless. What we believe and affirm (and reject) about God must matter as well, not just that we get some abstract number or concept right.

Agreed, but I'm not sure that what we are talking about is exactly the same as popular monotheism.  This philosophy is essentially a kind of universalism which teaches similar to the Brahman understanding that everything is really God so anyway to worship God is the correct way or an acceptable way to worship God.  That is not necessarily at all what at least I am trying to suggest.  Rather, that by worship I am referring to a direct relationship with God, even outside of a covenant or saving relationship, but a relationship nonetheless.  Its not that Judaism or Islam as a methodology is correct worship which should be emulated, rather just to say that God has His own right to talk with and know whomever He pleases, and it is this relationship precisely which brings those from outside the Church to come inside, again according to the Gospel of John chapter 6.



Quote

See above. Those who are outside of the Church may affirm the truths that are affirmed within it, while not (yet) being in communion within it. This does not provide a loophole of any kind, but rather explains how it is that those who are outside of the church may come to God despite their own limitations.

Agreed, its not a loophole at all, rather its just to say that God can know and befriend whomever He pleases, and this is separate from Salvation, which is exclusively in the Church, in fact this is what brings people from outside towards this Salvation in the first place, hence the "calling" and also being "chosen" Smiley 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #167 on: September 04, 2012, 09:33:51 PM »

This is again progress in the discussion.  By worship, could we agree that we are talking about a tangible and direct relationship with God personally, not conceptually?
 

What do you mean "personally, not conceptually"? I take exception to the introduction of this idea of "concept worship" that has cropped up in this thread. I think it is wrong to say that The Trinity is a concept. I think trinitarianism is a concept, but The Trinity is the uncreated and undivided unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are God, and thus worshiping them by the name "Holy Trinity" is not really worshiping a concept; it's in a sense talking in shorthand, as we have developed this terminology to denote God as He has revealed Himself to us. Not just any trinity will do, because not just any trinity of things or people is the Holy Trinity. (An aside: My mind was changed regarding this topic as a result of a conversation I once had with a Hindu who insisted that his Hindu trinity, whatever that is, is God, and that ours is a cheap imitation of it; that is obviously wrong, and thus we must be careful when we talk about the Holy Trinity to be strict that we are not talking about the concept of "a trinitarian god" as a thing, but rather about Father, Son, and Spirit, who are about as far from being mere "concepts" as I can think of.)

Quote
The Gospel of John chapter 6 didn't say that the concepts of God, or the noble truths of the Church theology brought people to Christ
 

And neither has anyone in this thread, unless I have missed it. In Orthodoxy especially, it is not a matter of passing on some argument or piece of information to which we assent and then can say we believe. As I've already referenced (from 1 Corinthians), no one can say Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit. A person who is merely curious about theology and philosophy can satisfy himself without ever actually encountering God. But then I don't think anyone here has said anything to the contrary.

Quote
So we are drawn by God first, and then come to understand the logistics of this calling through learning the rules and explanations.  So could we all agree that in worshiping (i.e., directly knowing God in a personal way through the Spirit) God folks outside the Church are brought in?

I think I said more or less that exact thing, reflecting upon my own experiences in converting from Catholicism to Orthodoxy.

Quote
Agreed, but I'm not sure that what we are talking about is exactly the same as popular monotheism.  This philosophy is essentially a kind of universalism which teaches similar to the Brahman understanding that everything is really God so anyway to worship God is the correct way or an acceptable way to worship God.
 

Perhaps we have different things in mind when we use that term. I mean this tendency, bolstered in some churches by its official sanction in their writings (e.g., CCC 841), to believe that all who intend or claim to worship God are actually doing so, by virtue of there only being one God in the first place. A sort of intellectually lazy semi-affirmation of their religious systems that amounts to squishy, indifferent ideas like "eh, where else could their prayers go?", despite the fact that the Holy Bible contains many passages warning against the worship of false gods, showing us that it is possible that some who pray are not in fact worshiping God, despite their protestations to the contrary. Not everything that someone says is God or from God actually is. We must test all things, and hold fast to what is good.

Quote
Rather, that by worship I am referring to a direct relationship with God, even outside of a covenant or saving relationship, but a relationship nonetheless.  Its not that Judaism or Islam as a methodology is correct worship which should be emulated, rather just to say that God has His own right to talk with and know whomever He pleases, and it is this relationship precisely which brings those from outside the Church to come inside, again according to the Gospel of John chapter 6.

God may call who He wishes. Their response will determine much of how that plays out, hence all my earlier points about what people affirm and reject about God being very important. It's not that you "believe" your way into salvation, if we take belief to be a kind of rational epistemological certainty, but that what you believe determines how you will act and live, including your response to God. Not everyone who calls upon Him "Lord! Lord!" will see the kingdom. We would do well to remember that first for ourselves instead of condemning others, but I still believe it applies to others as well, and no one will be saved by any other God but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Quote
Agreed, its not a loophole at all, rather its just to say that God can know and befriend whomever He pleases, and this is separate from Salvation, which is exclusively in the Church, in fact this is what brings people from outside towards this Salvation in the first place, hence the "calling" and also being "chosen" Smiley

I believe we are in agreement today, my friend. You may, if you wish, mark your calendar. Wink
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« Reply #168 on: September 04, 2012, 10:07:37 PM »

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« Reply #169 on: September 04, 2012, 10:09:21 PM »



Yes let's keep continuing this ridiculous unimportant argument over semantics. I'm done dude. You made your insinuation that I was worshipping a concept which was wrong, and plenty of other members knew exactly what I was talking about in the context but you would like to bicker over its meaning.

You deliberately misunderstood me and celticfan, and continue to distort what I believe. Why don't you apologize for misunderstanding? Or are you too arrogant in doing that and turning into a pseudo-theological discussion, because that's not what this is.

Because you have not abandoned the implications of your incorrect argument.

Jews do not believe in the Trinity so it is impossible to worship the same God as us. THE END.

This simple argument must really impress you, since you have repeated it so many times.

Holy hell dude, get over yourself. And I'm the one who is so smug, sanctimoniously saying I'm philosophasting over an idol but I forgot you are holier than thou. The all knowing Cavaradossi flipping through his Orthodox theological vocabulary book indexed by Fr. Hopko himself to assert that he knows more than the rest of us neanderthals who are so content with our idolatry.

I was not aware that I owned any books written by father Thomas Hopko, although I have heard that he is a honorable priest of God who is quite well-read.
I think it's hugz time:



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« Reply #170 on: September 05, 2012, 01:14:02 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is again progress in the discussion.  By worship, could we agree that we are talking about a tangible and direct relationship with God personally, not conceptually?
 

What do you mean "personally, not conceptually"? I take exception to the introduction of this idea of "concept worship" that has cropped up in this thread. I think it is wrong to say that The Trinity is a concept. I think trinitarianism is a concept, but The Trinity is the uncreated and undivided unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who are God, and thus worshiping them by the name "Holy Trinity" is not really worshiping a concept;

I'm sorry, that is not what I meant at all.  You mentioned talking about studying the Trinity and the teachings of the Church and that this persuaded you towards the Church.  That is what I meant by concept, the conceptual ideas of what the Church is or isn't.  I do not myself personally believe that the concept of the Church attracts anyone, rather God calls those into His Church, and thereafter we begin to agree with the concepts as we experience them Smiley


Quote
Quote
Agreed, its not a loophole at all, rather its just to say that God can know and befriend whomever He pleases, and this is separate from Salvation, which is exclusively in the Church, in fact this is what brings people from outside towards this Salvation in the first place, hence the "calling" and also being "chosen" Smiley

I believe we are in agreement today, my friend. You may, if you wish, mark your calendar. Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #171 on: September 05, 2012, 01:22:04 AM »

I see. I am sorry for misunderstanding you and jumping to conclusions regarding what you mean, Habte.
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« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2013, 02:22:03 AM »

I John 2:23 "Whoever does not have the Son does not have the Father..." If they reject Jesus, then I don't see how they could have the same God.
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« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2013, 02:49:17 AM »

"From the standpoint of the gospel [non-Christian Jews] are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the Fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
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« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2013, 02:56:16 AM »

Well I was dumb

or still am.

Embarrasing.
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« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2013, 03:26:45 AM »

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Re: Do Modern-Day Rabbinic Jews Worship the One True God?


Somewhere in the NT; it says that the Father is seeking worshipers to worship in spirit and truth.
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« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2013, 04:11:41 AM »

It seems to me neccessarily since they have rejected Jesus who is God and declare him false they had abandoned worship of the one true God. Or rather never had it when Post temple judaism began to form itself partially in responce to Christianity as it was a growing faith.
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« Reply #177 on: February 09, 2013, 04:15:53 AM »


("To the Unknown God," Paletine Rome, c. 100 BC)

"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagas, said: 'Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship. I found also an altar with this inscription: 'To the Unknown God." What therefore you worship as Unknown, this I proclaim to you (Acts 17:22-23).


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"By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did." -Hebrews 11:2

On the basis of our concept of progressive revelation (e.g. from Abraham to Christianity) and the teaching of the NT (e.g. Heb. 11) it seems to me we must allow the possibility of worship of the true God without the fullness of faith having been yet revealed. This, I think does not from an Orthodox POV entail inclusivism[1]with regard to our contemporaries, but at best a sort of "agno-inclusivism" i.e. in the sense of knowing where the Church is but not knowing where she is not as the cliche goes. The prophets and saints of the OT are another matter only to the extent that God has made this known. Of others we have yet to know, but may commit all to hope and prayer.

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[1]Terminology in the sense described in James Sennett, "Worthy of a Better God: Religious Diversity and Salvation," in Bassham, Walls, and Irwin, eds., The Chronicles of Narnia and Philosophy (2005):

"Universal Salvation is the doctrine that all people will be saved, regardless of their religious affiliation, or even if they have none.
Pluralism is the doctrine that all of the great religions are capable of saving people; there isn't any religion that is the "one true religion" or the "only way."
Inclusivism is the doctrine that there is only one true religion, but that it is possible for people to be saved by that religion without consciously or explicitly belonging to it.
Exclusivism is the doctrine that there is only one true religion, and that one must belong to that religion [consciously/explicitly] in order to be saved.
People have used the term "universalism" for each of the first three doctrines stated above. But these are definitely different positions. The first implies that all people will be saved, whereas neither the second nor the third does. And the third implies that there is only one true religion, which the second denies."

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« Reply #178 on: February 09, 2013, 04:23:50 AM »

I think the difference here is that most Jews have openly rejected Christ and thus I don't see how the possibility exists that they could be worshipping the same God in an incomplete way. The Truth has been exposed to them explicitly and they have rejected it. This isn't the same as the Hindu youth who's never been exposed to Christianity or the isolated African or South American tribe who hasn't been exposed to the truth. Jews HAVE been exposed to Christ and they've openly rejected and crucified Him. For crying out loud, they have a Talmudic tradition stating that the Theotokos was a prostitute. St. John's words were very clear "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either..." (1 Jn. 2:23). The pagans at Aereopagus--along with many people in impoverished, primitive societies today--have not been exposed to Christ, therefore, they are not really denying Him. It's different for them. But the Jews were exposed to Him and denied Him.
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« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2013, 04:43:37 AM »

I think the difference here is that most Jews have openly rejected Christ and thus I don't see how the possibility exists that they could be worshipping the same God in an incomplete way. The Truth has been exposed to them explicitly and they have rejected it. This isn't the same as the Hindu youth who's never been exposed to Christianity or the isolated African or South American tribe who hasn't been exposed to the truth. Jews HAVE been exposed to Christ and they've openly rejected and crucified Him. For crying out loud, they have a Talmudic tradition stating that the Theotokos was a prostitute. St. John's words were very clear "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either..." (1 Jn. 2:23). The pagans at Aereopagus--along with many people in impoverished, primitive societies today--have not been exposed to Christ, therefore, they are not really denying Him. It's different for them. But the Jews were exposed to Him and denied Him.
That is the most difficult point for a position like Sennett's/Lewis's. Sennett's reply is that the denial which leads to eternal death must be permanent, not temporary:

"Inclusivists and exclusivists agree completely about one thing. Both believe that all who are saved do eventually come to know and embrace the one true religion. This is the import of AsIan's climactic comment to Emeth, "All find what they truly seek." Where inclusivists part company with exclusivists is in their conviction that, while many people come to know and embrace the truth explicitly before death, there are some who do so only in the next life. This idea of a pilgrimage journey to truth and salvation is dramatically illustrated in the story of Shasta in Tbe Horse and His Boy..." (Sennett, op cit).

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« Reply #180 on: February 09, 2013, 04:48:53 AM »

I think that I could possibly accept some form of Inclusivism, but I don't know if I could really apply it to someone who has been exposed to Christ but openly rejects Him; I think it could perhaps only apply to those who have never been exposed to Him.
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« Reply #181 on: February 09, 2013, 06:54:25 AM »

I think that I could possibly accept some form of Inclusivism, but I don't know if I could really apply it to someone who has been exposed to Christ but openly rejects Him; I think it could perhaps only apply to those who have never been exposed to Him.
I'm not sure exposure or lack thereof is enough for us to make such a judgment call. Saul of Tarsus, after lots of exposure to and rejection of the idea that Jesus was the Christ, openly and adamantly rejected Him.[1]

Denying Jesus was the Christ, denying the Son, he was according to the passage from St. John's epistle you quoted previously without the Father: Saul of Tarsus: antichrist![2] And yet we also know even at the same time God, beyond all time, knew his end from his beginning, knowing his future as St. Paul, even while he was yet in the womb, and He was present there, knitting Him together and holding his atoms in place, with love immeasurable. Such knowledge is for God, I think, not men. Can we truly know that a person "with exposure to the idea of Jesus as Christ" is somehow further from God or hope -even as they exist without the Father, as liar, as antichrist- than a person without such exposure?

This is why Paul understood salvation was by God's mercy -beyond rational expectation or calculation.
____________
[1] "As a staunch and conscientious Pharisee he was filled with horror at the blasphemous sect that proclaimed a crucified malefactor as the promised Messiah of Israel" (Metzger, NTBGC, 193). Especially absurd and blasphemous to a Jew like Saul was the idea that the Messiah, the Blessed One of God par excellence, would die on a tree as a malefactor, a fate reserved for those cursed by God (Deut  21:23: "A hanged man is accursed by God"). The Messiah "was believed to be the expected leader to victory by battle who's function was to conquer and rule a Jewish empire from Morocco to Indonesia. Crucified Messiahs are paradoxes -hard to sell." ibid). Saul of Tarsus wasn't buying.

The degree to which Saul's zealous leadership was responsible for the severe persecution suffered by the early church is evidenced in the fact that persecution of the church came to an abrupt halt with his conversion (Acts 9:31)!

Acts 22:4-2: "I persecuted this way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women, as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished."

[2] "Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." -1 Jn 2:22-23




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« Reply #182 on: February 09, 2013, 10:23:49 AM »

I think that I could possibly accept some form of Inclusivism, but I don't know if I could really apply it to someone who has been exposed to Christ but openly rejects Him; I think it could perhaps only apply to those who have never been exposed to Him.
Define "exposed".
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