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Author Topic: Did the Pope miss this passage?  (Read 15179 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2004, 04:32:02 PM »

We Catholics would say the same thing. Hence, the impasse.

In that case, you Catholics still do not understand.
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« Reply #91 on: December 29, 2004, 04:38:26 PM »


 But the Orthodox will have to decide whether we Catholics are part of the same religion or a different one. You cannot have it both ways.

Actually, Jack, this is an astute observation. Many Greek clerics do in fact maintain that ALL western Christianity, including the Church of Rome, is indeed another religion. A hint at how far the west has moved.

If I add with respect, you still do not undertand what Orthodoxy is. It is YOU as YOU used to be and Catholic as we still are.

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« Reply #92 on: December 29, 2004, 07:07:51 PM »

Actually, Jack, this is an astute observation. Many Greek clerics do in fact maintain that ALL western Christianity, including the Church of Rome, is indeed another religion. A hint at how far the west has moved.

Aw, come on. It's just poltical posturing. There are bigger differences among conservative Anglicans than there are between Constantinople and Rome.
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« Reply #93 on: December 30, 2004, 12:03:17 AM »



Aw, come on. It's just poltical posturing. There are bigger differences among conservative Anglicans than there are between Constantinople and Rome.


...shows an Anglican's lack of understanding Orthodoxy to be sure. As to differences among Anglicans, who cares?
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« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2004, 09:46:01 AM »

Well, maybe you should care. After all, it's possible that Anglicans may split up in a way that cuts off the supply of already-priested theologically conservative men who bring in and lead all those convert parishes.

Christianity is a religion. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are major traditions/denominations/your-favorite-subdivision-heres within it. This is the division that everyone who doesn't have a dog in the fight sees, and those who see otherwise? They're spinning the fight for their dog.
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« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2004, 10:59:29 AM »

Well, maybe you should care. After all, it's possible that Anglicans may split up in a way that cuts off the supply of already-priested theologically conservative men who bring in and lead all those convert parishes.

Irrelevant

Quote
Christianity is a religion. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are major traditions/denominations/your-favorite-subdivision-heres within it. This is the division that everyone who doesn't have a dog in the fight sees, and those who see otherwise? They're spinning the fight for their dog.

Perhaps you have mistaken me as a believer in denominationism.
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« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2004, 11:03:07 AM »

Pravoslavbob,

Sorry that you found my post or is it my posts inadequate in terms of having a debate. And I guess you may too have a point in suggesting I should not post here. There again how many times do I, and others, have to put up with those who also quip or quibble and do not 'back up' their point of view and/or are less than polite? As I recall I provide quite a lot of 'evidence' in the round of things, but those of a contrary view, perhaps, might wish I did not post that 'evidence' either.

My intention is not to cause any offence but to call attention to an Orthodox world-view and not one that may be fashionable, easy or diplomatic but misleading.

As for evidence, I cite Bishop Nikon of Yekatierinburg ordering students to burn the books of these three ......... as reported in the London Times and on METAPHRASIS Religious News Service. (Bishop Nikon later was required to retire under a cloud).

Sorry if this is not adequate - as I am sure it will not be - but I have more pressing matters occupying me.
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« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2004, 11:25:27 AM »

What the Orthodox Church must want is conversion to Orthodoxy.  That's a legitimate position to hold, but it is not legitimate to say that you want reunion when what you really want is conversion.

Well, when the word "reunion" is used only in the way you're using it, then no, we don't want "reunion."  Choice of words, I guess.

Quote
Moreover, since given your position we are actually different religions, there can be no objection to Catholics seeking converts in Russia.  Nor can there be an objection to the presence of Eastern Catholic churches in that region (provided, of course, that there is full disclosure).
 

Provided that, yes.  But that's a big provision, and one that hasn't been made for the most part.  Many RC efforts in Russia are of the whole "just Orthodox in communion with Rome" deal, making the claim that it's no different, really...just a switch of which heirarch they commemorate in Liturgy.  With that being the case, we most certainly DO object to their efforts.

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Why would you expect us to recognize patriarchal territories if those territories have no more to do with us than they do with a Presbyterian or even a Buddhist?

Again, provided that our territories are recognized as a distinct and separate faith (which they're not, at present), there would be much less outrage, I think...much of the Orthodox indignation at efforts in Russia is due to what is perceived to be a less-than-up-front MO; many Russians and Ukranians are told that they are "Orthodox in communion w/Rome" now, when in reality, they have ceased, in our eyes, to be Orthodox at all.
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« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2004, 11:37:17 AM »

Perhaps you have mistaken me as a believer in denominationism.

Denominations and divisions within Christianity exist objectively, with or without your approval. What you seem to be is a believer in definitionalism: the notion that you can change reality by "changing" the meaning of words. But you can't even do that, because no man or woman has that kind of control over language.
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« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2004, 12:04:44 PM »

[What the Orthodox Church must want is conversion to Orthodoxy. That's a legitimate position to hold, but it is not legitimate to say that you want reunion when what you really want is conversion.]

No.  Once again all we want is a return to the faith that we both shared when we were still one entitity.  We are not asking or requiring you to believe anything you have not believed or upheld in the past.  Which is what you are requiring of us. 

We haven't changed the faith.  You have.  It's as simple as that.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2004, 12:09:46 PM »



Denominations and divisions within Christianity exist objectively, with or without your approval. What you seem to be is a believer in definitionalism: the notion that you can change reality by "changing" the meaning of words. But you can't even do that, because no man or woman has that kind of control over language.


By YOUR definition of Christianity, I assume
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« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2004, 12:13:47 PM »

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/krehel_orthodox_catholic_faith.htm

This may help explain the Orthodox Catholic Faith.

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« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2004, 12:27:28 PM »

Another good source:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/church_tradition_florovsky.htm#n1

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« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2004, 12:43:53 PM »

In that case, you Catholics still do not understand.

I have to agree with +æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é here.

We haven't changed the faith. Roman Catholics have . It's as simple as that.

Yep. Have to also agree with Orthodoc on this.

Although, as you all know, I think that the Orthodox have "pushed the envelope" with some of the traditions of the Church, the Roman Catholics have gone totally wacky and have just about created a new religion with the Christ as the beginning, but not the end.
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« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2004, 01:03:37 PM »

Pardon me, it seems to me that if Our Lord wants the Church of Rome to rejoin it's historical brethern then it will happen. While personally I think reunification would destroy the Roman Church, if I live to see the day reunification happens, I'd rejoice.
But before the time of our two churches sitting down and working things out, maybe the Roman Church should be more concerned about eliminating influences from Protestantism. When I read about the Roman Church's new Rite of Exorcism, my heart sank. It made me feel like the Roman Church has relegated the evil one to a psychological concept. If this is in fact the case, then the evil one has free reign with your believers since why should anyone be afraid of a make-believe monster? I'll wrap up now with an apology in advance if my opinion isn't explained sufficiently.
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« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2004, 04:02:56 PM »

Surfacing from my sabbatical , and being a RC , I must agree, the Church of Rome has stumbled(my issues are mine, though some share the same), but with this to the side, is it not the responsiblity of all TO PRAY for THEM, and not just stating where they stumbled, words are words, statements are statements, but where are your WORKS my brothers.

Back your statements of error, stumbling and rebuke with words of prayer my brothers/sisters/brethern.

Back to study & alot of prayer,

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« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2004, 04:25:07 PM »

Good reason to break your cyber-fast, James.
Thanks
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« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2004, 05:55:06 PM »



In that case, you Catholics still do not understand.

No, I understand fine.  Unfortunately, a full blown debate regarding Catholicism versus Orthodoxy from the Catholic point of view is not permitted or appropriate at this site.  Do not confuse my acceptance of the rules with an inability to respond.  If you can suggest a neutral forum, or want to contact me via e-mail, we can take up the discussion there.
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« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2004, 05:58:01 PM »



Actually, Jack, this is an astute observation. Many Greek clerics do in fact maintain that ALL western Christianity, including the Church of Rome, is indeed another religion. A hint at how far the west has moved.

If I add with respect, you still do not undertand what Orthodoxy is. It is YOU as YOU used to be and Catholic as we still are.

Demetri


See my response to your previous post.
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« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2004, 06:03:21 PM »



Again, provided that our territories are recognized as a distinct and separate faith (which they're not, at present), there would be much less outrage, I think...much of the Orthodox indignation at efforts in Russia is due to what is perceived to be a less-than-up-front MO; many Russians and Ukranians are told that they are "Orthodox in communion w/Rome" now, when in reality, they have ceased, in our eyes, to be Orthodox at all.

And why don't you object to me calling myself Catholic, since you believe yourself to be Catholic as well?
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« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2004, 06:04:21 PM »

By YOUR definition of Christianity, I assume

I don't define the word-- the other billion-plus English speakers of the world do.
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« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2004, 06:08:01 PM »


Although, as you all know, I think that the Orthodox have "pushed the envelope" with some of the traditions of the Church....


Forgive me, Tom, but what could you possibly mean by this statement? Or do I really want to know?

Bob
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« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2004, 06:14:26 PM »

[What the Orthodox Church must want is conversion to Orthodoxy. That's a legitimate position to hold, but it is not legitimate to say that you want reunion when what you really want is conversion.]

No.  Once again all we want is a return to the faith that we both shared when we were still one entitity.  We are not asking or requiring you to believe anything you have not believed or upheld in the past.  Which is what you are requiring of us. 

We haven't changed the faith.  You have.  It's as simple as that.

Orthodoc



Naturally, I disagree with your position.  See my responses to Aristokles.  I have taken off the feature of my personal profile that has hitherto hidden my e-mail address.  It is not permitted or appropriate for me to respond to your post fully at this site.  For a more robust discussion on this point, please e-mail me.
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« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2004, 06:26:46 PM »

Forgive me, Tom, but what could you possibly mean by this statement?  Or do I really want to know?

Hoo boy...Bob, you and Tom are better off taking that one to PMs or emails.

Just a thought from a mod.
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« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2004, 06:33:19 PM »

And why don't you object to me calling myself Catholic, since you believe yourself to be Catholic as well?

Because that is the more common, "generic" term for your church.  When people, even most of us, hear the word "Catholic," we think RC.  Likewise the term "Orthodox" usually brings up images of those eastern churches not in communion with Rome.  See the title of this subforum to see what I mean.

At any rate, use of this or that term is not the important thing here.  You all may use whichever term you like, even call yourselves Orthodox this and that, or whatever.  The point, my friend, is that the efforts to proselytize are done with the (imo) lie that the change from Catholic to Orthodox is not really any kind of conversion at all, just a "switch of bishops," as if this ultimately changed nothing.  To us, however, it changes everything.

Like I said, use whatever words you like to describe yourself, as will we.  But please don't put us in the same boat as you, because we don't do the same.
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« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2004, 07:02:48 PM »



I don't define the word-- the other billion-plus English speakers of the world do.


Typical western heterodox statement. Meaningless to us.
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« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2004, 07:05:19 PM »



Forgive me, Tom, but what could you possibly mean by this statement?  Or do I really want to know?

Bob

Bob, You don't want to know. Tom forgot what he promised about Holy Tradiition at his Chrismation; or perhaps it was in Greek and he did not know what he agreed to. But, he tries...

Demetri
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« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2004, 07:20:21 PM »

Pedro and Demetri,

Okay, well.... thanks for your advice. Nothing personal, Tom, but I take back the question! Smiley

Bob
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« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2004, 07:50:17 PM »

Many RC efforts in Russia are of the whole "just Orthodox in communion with Rome" deal, making the claim that it's no different, really...just a switch of which heirarch they commemorate in Liturgy. With that being the case, we most certainly DO object to their efforts.

...

Again, provided that our territories are recognized as a distinct and separate faith (which they're not, at present), there would be much less outrage, I think...much of the Orthodox indignation at efforts in Russia is due to what is perceived to be a less-than-up-front MO; many Russians and Ukranians are told that they are "Orthodox in communion w/Rome" now, when in reality, they have ceased, in our eyes, to be Orthodox at all.

Pedro,

I would have sworn that I replied to this point earlier, but I can't find the post ... so ...

To say that many RC efforts in Russia are directed at bringing currently RO faithful into the status of "Orthodox in communion with Rome" isn't really accurate as that presupposes bringing them into the Russian Greek-Catholic Church (RGCC), as opposed to the Latin Church. The RGCC is, at best, one of Rome's most neglected stepchildren among the Byzantine Catholic sui iuris Churches, having been without a hierarch since the death in a Soviet prison, more than a half-century ago, of Blessed Father Archimandrite Kliment Sheptitsky, the last incumbent of the Apostolic Exarchate of Moscow, the sole Russian GCC jurisdiction in Russia.

Despite multiple and recurring requests that the RGCC See, which is extant, though sede vacante, be reactivated, Rome has taken no action on the matter. The four (I think) Catholic canonical jurisdictions in Russia that were recently elevated to the status of dioceses were all Latin jurisdictions, not RGCC. Informed speculation as to the motivation behind Rome's apparent decision to limit its focus in Russia to the Latin jurisdictions is that doing so is not seen as threatening to its rapport with the MP, while any move to enhance or strengthen the RGCC status would be looked upon as a potential move toward prosletyzing the RO faithful.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2004, 07:55:29 PM »

Nothing personal, Tom, but I take back the question!   Smiley

'sokay - I take nothing personally on an internet board.
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« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2004, 08:05:36 PM »



No, I understand fine. Unfortunately, a full blown debate regarding Catholicism versus Orthodoxy from the Catholic point of view is not permitted or appropriate at this site. Do not confuse my acceptance of the rules with an inability to respond. If you can suggest a neutral forum, or want to contact me via e-mail, we can take up the discussion there.
No, Jack,  I don't think you do. In April I sent you to a link at Prof. C.J. Bailey's orlapubs website detailing, categorized, the innovations in Latin Catholicism not found in Orthodoxy (which at one point Rome did hold). You cannot possibly have STUDIED that listing and still state you understand. I am willing to provide a private email address so we can carry on off-forum; but not until you've exhausted that webpage's content will I do this.

Demetri
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« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2004, 08:07:17 PM »

Pravoslavbob,

Sorry that you found my post or is it my posts inadequate in terms of having a debate. And I guess you may too have a point in suggesting I should not post here. There again how many times do I, and others, have to put up with those who also quip or quibble and do not 'back up' their point of view and/or are less than polite? As I recall I provide quite a lot of 'evidence' in the round of things, but those of a contrary view, perhaps, might wish I did not post that 'evidence' either.

My intention is not to cause any offence but to call attention to an Orthodox world-view and not one that may be fashionable, easy or diplomatic but misleading.

As for evidence, I cite Bishop Nikon of Yekatierinburg ordering students to burn the books of these three ......... as reported in the London Times and on METAPHRASIS Religious News Service. (Bishop Nikon later was required to retire under a cloud).

Sorry if this is not adequate - as I am sure it will not be - but I have more pressing matters occupying me.

gphadraig,

Thank you for your apology. You show character for admitting to what may have been an error in judgment.

You are entitled to your opinions about Meyendorff. As you know, I do not agree with you and do not find his opinions to be "fashionable, easy, or diplomatic." If someone were to tell me why they really thought that Meyendorff or Schmemann were wrong, and give balanced arguments of intellectual substance to show this, I would honestly be more than willing to listen.  IMHO, I have never seen arguments that are convincing on this scale. Those who advocate burning books immediately place themselves outside the realm of those who consider a balanced consideraton of the facts, as far as I am concerned.  Such appeals to "tradition" seem to me to be at best blatant appeals to emotionalism that has nothing to do with spiritual reality.

The fact that you have posted this reply in and of itself means that you are not impolite. Others should certainly endeavour to be polite to you.  But I think that this is somewhat beside the point. However, the (possible) implication that myself or others like me may be somehow less than Orthodox because of our views might be very much at issue.

(BTW, it may or may not interest you to know that I do not regard the writings or opinions of Fr. Thomas Hopko to be on the same level as those of Schmemann or Meyendorff. Although I find many of his writings to be useful and Othodox in outlook, I find that he will occassionally say something that is erroneous. And I have it on good authority that he used to say very strange things while teaching in the classroom. Whether this has recently been true, I do not know.)

Thank you again.

Bob


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« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2004, 08:57:36 PM »

Quote
When I read about the Roman Church's new Rite of Exorcism, my heart sank. It made me feel like the Roman Church has relegated the evil one to a psychological concept. If this is in fact the case, then the evil one has free reign with your believers since why should anyone be afraid of a make-believe monster? I'll wrap up now with an apology in advance if my opinion isn't explained sufficiently.

I heard about that as well Columba and I felt the same reaction as you did.

Scary stuff!  Shocked

In Christ,
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« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2004, 12:49:50 AM »

Many RC efforts in Russia are of the whole "just Orthodox in communion with Rome" deal, making the claim that it's no different, really...just a switch of which heirarch they commemorate in Liturgy. With that being the case, we most certainly DO object to their efforts.

Dear Pedro,

I am a bit of a late-comer to this conversation but this point is of interest to me. The old maxim is "the exception proves the rule" meaning if it can be done as an exception then it can be done.

When the Greek Catholics of Eastern and Central Europe were forcibly reunited with the MP in '45-'50 (I am thinking of Ukraine [then part of the USSR] and Czechoslovakia in particular) not much was done. Oh, they were provided with new sluzhebniks but in reality all that changed was the name of the bishop that they had to commemorate.

Now, we can say "well, we're right and they're wrong." Yes we can, and I would say yes we are. But, in a modern civilized world triumphalism doesn't really win many friends or converts. This pattern of just changing allegiance is old and has been emlpoyed by Catholics and Orthodox.

I am just wondering. How can a Church which engaged in the same thing now hold that position?

TonyS
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« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2004, 01:06:20 AM »

At any rate, use of this or that term is not the important thing here. You all may use whichever term you like, even call yourselves Orthodox this and that, or whatever. The point, my friend, is that the efforts to proselytize are done with the (imo) lie that the change from Catholic to Orthodox is not really any kind of conversion at all, just a "switch of bishops," as if this ultimately changed nothing. To us, however, it changes everything.

Again, isolating this point.  It seems that the MP followed the pattern established by Rome.  I understand (very well I think) that these people were Orthodox to start with.  Yet in 1950 when the forced reunion with the MP took place hey had accepted the Immaculate Conception, et al, and their ritual life had certainly changed as well as their own self perception.  No mass (re)baptisms, no Chrismation, no profession of faith, oh I guess they were received by confession. 
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« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2004, 02:18:42 AM »

TonyS,

You bring up a valid point; the changes wrought by the mass conversions to Orthodoxy were similar in scope, liturgically speaking, as those made by Catholics in their missionary endeavors.  But scope of liturgical change, as important as it is, isn't what concerns me.

What concerns me is the cavalier attitude that many Catholic missionaries to Russia have had towards their efforts, portraying the conversion as a mere "switching of bishops," with no ultimate ecclesiastical ramifications -- they can still call themselves "Orthodox," in other words, as if nothing had changed.  My understanding is that the MP made no effort to try and "sugarcoat" the move -- "Don't worry!  You're still Catholics; you're just Catholics in communion with Moscow now," iow -- it was made very clear that they had moved from one Christian confession to a different one, though the outward appearance changed very little.
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« Reply #126 on: December 31, 2004, 05:46:27 AM »

You bring up a valid point; the changes wrought by the mass conversions to Orthodoxy were similar in scope, liturgically speaking, as those made by Catholics in their missionary endeavors. But scope of liturgical change, as important as it is, isn't what concerns me.

What concerns me is the cavalier attitude that many Catholic missionaries to Russia have had towards their efforts, portraying the conversion as a mere "switching of bishops," with no ultimate ecclesiastical ramifications -- they can still call themselves "Orthodox," in other words, as if nothing had changed. My understanding is that the MP made no effort to try and "sugarcoat" the move -- "Don't worry! You're still Catholics; you're just Catholics in communion with Moscow now," iow -- it was made very clear that they had moved from one Christian confession to a different one, though the outward appearance changed very little.

Pedro,

It seems to me that, in postulating that a translation of the faithful from Orthodoxy to Catholicism (or vice versa) was orchestrated with such chicanery and accomplished so seamlessly that they were lulled into thinking that no change had occurred, other than in the diptychs, you seriously denigrate the intelligence of the Russian peoples.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #127 on: December 31, 2004, 10:30:03 AM »

Typical western heterodox statement. Meaningless to us.

While you are using this "western heterodox" language (that is, English) you should use "dismissed out of hand" instead of "meaningless". Even the word "heterodox" is an empty pejorative the way you're using it, because the omitted word in your name-calling is heterodox Christian.
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« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2004, 10:53:46 AM »



While you are using this "western heterodox" language (that is, English) you should use "dismissed out of hand" instead of "meaningless". Even the word "heterodox" is an empty pejorative the way you're using it, because the omitted word in your name-calling is heterodox Christian.


Thank you, Mister Pedant. However my post was worded exactly as I intended.
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« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2004, 12:08:06 PM »

TonyS,

It would seem to me that the Orthodox were merely being pragmatic when they took in the Greek Catholics.  They knew that many of them didn't want to come over so if they would have tried to force themselves on them it might have been a big diisaster. As you know, in the years from 1950 onwards, an Orthodox identity was formed in the minds and hearts of many, those being the large number of people in Galicia who refused to convert back to the Greek Catholic Church in 1990 when given the chance.

I also don't think that just because someone did x it "can be done."  I know of a Catholic priest who received a Oneness Pentacostal by confirmation.  Was this a real reception? Of course not--and it was fixed later by another Catholic priest.  It happened, but it wasn't "real."

Anastasios
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« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2004, 12:24:12 PM »

TonyS,

It would seem to me that the Orthodox were merely being pragmatic when they took in the Greek Catholics. They knew that many of them didn't want to come over so if they would have tried to force themselves on them it might have been a big diisaster. As you know, in the years from 1950 onwards, an Orthodox identity was formed in the minds and hearts of many, those being the large number of people in Galicia who refused to convert back to the Greek Catholic Church in 1990 when given the chance.

I also don't think that just because someone did x it "can be done." I know of a Catholic priest who received a Oneness Pentacostal by confirmation. Was this a real reception? Of course not--and it was fixed later by another Catholic priest. It happened, but it wasn't "real."

Anastasios

Anastasios,

Regarding what one RC priest did, I don't think it is a particularly useful comparison.  The actions of one RC priest compared to that of a patriarchate seems a bit unbalanaced. 

I agree that the way the people were received (that is what really happened) was more pragmatic than idealistic.  Further the conditions would not allow anything else I am sure, as you mention.  I am told such things happened in the 19th century during the life of St. Maksim Sandovich when the borders moved.  Again, it follows the pattern established in the initial unions.  I have stated here on this board my thoughts on that and I will now on this.  The people had no choice.  They didn't the first time they didn't under communism.

What remains is that the people changed churches.  This happened by a mere change of bishop.

TonyS
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

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« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2004, 12:35:06 PM »

What concerns me is the cavalier attitude that many Catholic missionaries to Russia have had towards their efforts, portraying the conversion as a mere "switching of bishops," with no ultimate ecclesiastical ramifications -- they can still call themselves "Orthodox," in other words, as if nothing had changed. My understanding is that the MP made no effort to try and "sugarcoat" the move -- "Don't worry! You're still Catholics; you're just Catholics in communion with Moscow now," iow -- it was made very clear that they had moved from one Christian confession to a different one, though the outward appearance changed very little.

Pedro,

Well this "you can still call yourselves Orthodox" is from the initial unions. It was my understanding that such a modus operandi was rejected by Rome, perhaps I am mistaken. That being said if someone wishes to become Russian GC he/she/they should be allowed, as they should be allowed to become anything they want confessionally.

I think in the 40s and 50s there was no sugarcoating of the move as you mention but it should also be noted that it was the government who enforced this, the same government that was besieging the ROC in general. While the ROC profited from the numbers it has had a lasting impact on what some view as its integrity. As I noted a new sluzhebnik was printed and apparently distributed but there was no enforcement, at least that is what I was told my a friend who is a GC priest whose dad was an Orthodox priest in the time.

Off topic: In Slavonic the response to the Christmas greeting is in the plural, I noticed on metropolitan HERMAN's pastoral letter it is as you have it sans punctuation. However when the greeting is exchanged even between individuals it remains in the plural. It seems then it should be "glorifiquenle" in order to be an accurate translation.

TonyS
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Tómame como al tequila, de un golpe y sin pensarlo. - Ricardo Arjona

I'd be a fool to surrender when I know I can be a contender
and if everbody's a sinner then everybody can be a winner
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I'll see you when yo
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« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2004, 03:48:33 PM »



Because that is the more common, "generic" term for your church.  When people, even most of us, hear the word "Catholic," we think RC.  Likewise the term "Orthodox" usually brings up images of those eastern churches not in communion with Rome.  See the title of this subforum to see what I mean.

At any rate, use of this or that term is not the important thing here.  You all may use whichever term you like, even call yourselves Orthodox this and that, or whatever.  The point, my friend, is that the efforts to proselytize are done with the (imo) lie that the change from Catholic to Orthodox is not really any kind of conversion at all, just a "switch of bishops," as if this ultimately changed nothing.  To us, however, it changes everything.

Like I said, use whatever words you like to describe yourself, as will we.  But please don't put us in the same boat as you, because we don't do the same.

You've got a deal.
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« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2004, 04:40:40 PM »


No, Jack,  I don't think you do. In April I sent you to a link at Prof. C.J. Bailey's orlapubs website detailing, categorized, the innovations in Latin Catholicism not found in Orthodoxy (which at one point Rome did hold). You cannot possibly have STUDIED that listing and still state you understand. I am willing to provide a private email address so we can carry on off-forum; but not until you've exhausted that webpage's content will I do this.

Demetri

I printed it out again.  Where would you like to start?
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« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2004, 05:06:56 PM »

I tried to find that topic at orlapubs yesterday alot of the links did not work, got a direct link to the said topic from that site ?

james
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