sprtslvr1973
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« on: July 22, 2012, 08:34:32 PM » |
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Last couple of weeks Saint Vanerios (Sp.) has been a subject of admiration and reference at my parish. I don"t mind people asking departed Christians to pray for us like we ask a Christian on Earth to. But I have to say that treating a saint like a source unto them self is wrong.
Christ is Always present and available
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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Kerdy
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 08:39:56 PM » |
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What specifically is taking place which troubles you?
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"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr ( c.160 )
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sprtslvr1973
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2012, 08:43:45 PM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 09:18:38 PM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
Cringe. |
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 09:28:46 PM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
That is definitely not something I've ever heard in an Orthodox Church (or, indeed, in any church). |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
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American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
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Melodist
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 10:43:55 PM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant This is also, to the best of my knowledge, not Orthodox. |
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LBK
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2012, 02:09:32 AM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant This is also, to the best of my knowledge, not Orthodox. Ditto. All the worse coming from the mouth of someone in an ordained position .... Does the priest know, and, if so, what did he do about it? |
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Knee V
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 02:17:23 AM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
It is markedly false. If anything, there aren't enough prayers rising up to God. |
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sprtslvr1973
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2012, 06:07:54 AM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
It is markedly false. If anything, there aren't enough prayers rising up to God. My point exactly |
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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soderquj
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2012, 11:52:45 AM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
It is markedly false. If anything, there aren't enough prayers rising up to God. Ditto!!!! |
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O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
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Severian
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2012, 11:54:36 AM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
It is markedly false. If anything, there aren't enough prayers rising up to God. Ditto!!!! Same. |
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Christ is risen! !المسيح قام Χριστός ἀνέστη! ⲠⲓⲬⲣⲓⲥⲧⲟⲥ ⲁϥⲧⲱⲛϥ! Christus resurrexit! Come and join OCnet's new book club! |
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Antonis
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2012, 01:15:15 PM » |
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Even if it were true (it isn't, clearly), praying to saints wouldn't solve the problem, as they would only direct the prayers towards God.
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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OrthoNoob
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2012, 01:30:06 PM » |
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Even if it were true (it isn't, clearly), praying to saints wouldn't solve the problem, as they would only direct the prayers towards God.
Maybe the theory is that the saints screen the prayers so God only gets the important ones? |
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dzheremi
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2012, 01:36:46 PM » |
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"Hello, you've reached St. George, how may I direct your call?"? Sounds ridiculous to me.
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sprtslvr1973
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2012, 01:41:07 PM » |
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"Hello, you've reached St. George, how may I direct your call?"? Sounds ridiculous to me.
So what is your belief about this? |
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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dzheremi
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2012, 01:52:17 PM » |
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I've never heard of this idea that the saints "screen" prayers for God, and my gut reaction is that it is pretty ridiculous. If God exists outside of created time, then why would this be necessary? Is God too "busy" with other prayers, as there's only so much time in the God-day? Preposterous. God is not a 1980s answering machine that fills up and eventually needs to be reset or recorded over when a new batch of prayers come in.
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soderquj
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2012, 02:15:04 PM » |
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I guess I am confused by this sub-deacon statement. I was always told that when we ask for a Saint to intercede or to pray for us we are asking for there help in our request to God. If by chance the outcome is granted it is by God through the Saint and noway the Saint alone.
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O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
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Benjamin the Red
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Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2012, 02:27:59 PM » |
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Saints are saints because of God, through the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. It is through his atoning work that saints live "though they die." We are able to have communion with them only because they have united themselves to Christ and rest in Him.
That said, because of this power through Christ, we pray to saints that they fulfill our petitions. The most basic petition, of course, would be that s/he intercede before Christ to grant us salvation and mercy. However, if these saints live in Christ, they are...well...alive. They are active beings and can work. They appear in visions, they heal the sick, raise the dead and work all sorts of miracles. I believe that it is indeed the saint, him or herself, that does that work. The saint works miracles. The distinction between the saint's and God's actions is that God works of his own power and authority, whereas the saint works only by the power and authority of God by virtue of their communion with Christ.
And, surely, this idea of God being "too busy" to answer prayer is seriously misguided and needs to be corrected.
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"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2012, 02:28:59 PM » |
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A gentleman (in fact a subdeacon or deacon) said that God is so over whelmed with prayers that they get lost...This, I believe, is dangerously errant
That would be paganism. I believe it was Enlil who, in the Babylonian epic, had to drown humans in a flood, because their multitudinous cries made it impossible to get anything done. |
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 02:31:52 PM by NicholasMyra »
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sprtslvr1973
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2012, 09:02:35 AM » |
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Still fighting spiritual malaise and getting to any church. Thought about going to another Orthodox church or even a Protestant church for change, but do not want to 'visit' somewhere.
What this has to do with the title of this thread is that recently, after starting this discussion, my godfather suggested I ask Saint Phanourios to help with my job search. Why? Why can't I ask Christ for strength and finding what I need? The story is that Saint Phanorourios was martyred by idol worshipers. Do you really think he'd be happy about people doing the same with him? I mean, I understand the role Christians in Heaven (Saints) play spiritually but isn't it possible to go too far with this? Let me put it another way. While I believe we are to share one another's burdens (Galatians 6:2), but doesn't there come a point where we stop asking our friends to pray for us, and get on our own knees and pray?
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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Melodist
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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2012, 10:18:09 AM » |
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but doesn't there come a point where we stop asking our friends to pray for us, and get on our own knees and pray? The two are not mutually exlcusive. |
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2012, 11:26:43 AM » |
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but doesn't there come a point where we stop asking our friends to pray for us, and get on our own knees and pray? The two are not mutually exclusive. Exactly! Personally I need all the help I can get, and we know from Scripture that the prayers of a righteous man avail much. When I ask for prayer, I'm also praying fervently myself, because it is something that is important to me. |
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"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."
St. John Chrysostom
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