So I'm currently reading, "The Great Controversy"....

[Ninjaly Awesome]

...and it is a TERRIBLE book! 

For those of you who are unaware, it was written by Ellen G. White who was the founder of the Seventh Day Adventist church. My wife was talking to a former teacher's wife (she went to an Adventist high school) about Orthodoxy and suggested reading "Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells" since Matthew Gallatin is a former Adventist himself. However, her reply was that she would read it if we read TGC. So I downloaded it to my Nook and began reading.

I'm absolutely astounded how so many people can believe the nonsense this woman wrote. I'm not even 1/4 of the way through before I see gross historical errors, especially concerning the early church. For one thing, Ellen G. White doesn't mention the split in 1054 in some of her earlier chapters on the medieval church and just assumes it was all Roman Catholic. (So far I haven't read of any reference to Eastern Orthodoxy in TGC but I also want to note that I haven't finished the book yet).

One of the things that absolutely astounded me was that she accused monks of forging documents. Yet, she also never provided what[ specific documents were forged and how she knew they were forged. My guess is that Ellen White never realized that if she had to call in to question monks' documents that she would have to call a lot of Western history into question as well. If anyone else has ever read the book How the Irish Saved Civilization, you probably know what I'm talking about. We have monks to thank for preserving tons and tons of history including non-Christian history. They worked painfully hard to make sure they got all the details just right even if they thought what they were copying was disgusting (some of it definitely was).

Over and over and over again she calls things and people "of Satan." I swear this woman was like Bobby Bouche's mother on the movie The Waterboy, calling everything "THE DEVIL!" if she didn't like it. And all the while I'm reading I'm thinking, "Really? You think Satan is hiding behind every bush ready to pounce and getcha?"

I could go on and on. I misplaced my Nook temporarily but I'll post some more stuff when I find it later.

[biro]

I saw it in the library. I may get it, just for the eyebrow-raisers.

[Poppy]

This link says pretty much the same thing about the historical errors in it

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/gc.htm

[simmmo]

This is very interesting. I was born and raised SDA. But am investigating Orthodoxy. I agree 100% regarding TGC. It doesn't even acknowledge the Christian East whatsoever. It is very unreliable on Church History - and that's putting it mildly. In fact, it is written to deliberately give the reader a very bad image of the orthodox church in the early centuries.

So there is an SDA who has become Orthodox! Matthew Gallatin! That's very intereting. I wouldn't mind speaking with him. I know of quite a few RCC converts. But no EO converts.

But yes, TGC is not recommended reading - well it would give some insight into the thinking of SDAs, but it won't enlighten you much on Church history. How did you go with the rest of the book?

[jmbejdl]

This is very interesting. I was born and raised SDA. But am investigating Orthodoxy. I agree 100% regarding TGC. It doesn't even acknowledge the Christian East whatsoever. It is very unreliable on Church History - and that's putting it mildly. In fact, it is written to deliberately give the reader a very bad image of the orthodox church in the early centuries.

So there is an SDA who has become Orthodox! Matthew Gallatin! That's very intereting. I wouldn't mind speaking with him. I know of quite a few RCC converts. But no EO converts.

But yes, TGC is not recommended reading - well it would give some insight into the thinking of SDAs, but it won't enlighten you much on Church history. How did you go with the rest of the book?

Strangely enough, the one and only convert priest I know is a convert from the SDAs.

James

[OrthoNoob]

TGC also cites Cathar heretics as "true Christians" resisting the "whore of Babylon." Apparently, if the Catholics killed you, that makes you a Christian martyr. I think the Turks killed in the Crusades would be very surprised to discover which faith they were dying for. 

[simmmo]

It should be stated that much of the anti-Catholic sentiments found in TGC were very common among Protestants in the US at the time.

Criticisms of monks is just absolutely uncalled for. If it wasn't for monks, we wouldn't have the Scriptures EGW apparently treasures so much. She also has a go at the medieval Catholic Church for "chaining the Bible" to monastery walls. Well back in the day there was no printing press and copies of scripture were very very valuable. You couldn't just lend it out willy nilly. You had to safeguard the Scriptures. That's why there are so many manuscripts today - because faithful monks guarded them and preserved them very carefully. If people would use a little bit of common sense, it would go a long way. In those times, you simply couldn't  go down to the Christian book store and buy a leatherbound KJV bible! People had to go to church to hear Scripture read aloud, many also couldn't read. I do think the fact that the Latin church did not translate the Mass or the Scriptures into local vernacular is a valid criticism. This was not the case in the Christian East, as far as I know, where the Divine Liturgy and the Scriptures were translated into the language of the local congregation.

[jsenner]

I was born and raised SDA, and converted to Orthodox. You'll find a number of converts from SDA at St. Silouan's in Walla Walla, WA and at St. Andrew's in Riverside, CA. I'm at Holy Trinity in Butte, MT.

Lately this video is making the rounds on Facebook, to show that the Orthodox are persecuting SDA people;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo5lK9qLK7w

Sometimes those who the Adventists name as their true Christians in ancient history are actually Eastern Orthodox in belief and practice. Lately, there is a tiny bit of awareness happening of the Orthodox church mostly because of the people converting in America.

[Benjamin the Red]

This is very interesting. I was born and raised SDA. But am investigating Orthodoxy. I agree 100% regarding TGC. It doesn't even acknowledge the Christian East whatsoever. It is very unreliable on Church History - and that's putting it mildly. In fact, it is written to deliberately give the reader a very bad image of the orthodox church in the early centuries.

So there is an SDA who has become Orthodox! Matthew Gallatin! That's very intereting. I wouldn't mind speaking with him. I know of quite a few RCC converts. But no EO converts.

But yes, TGC is not recommended reading - well it would give some insight into the thinking of SDAs, but it won't enlighten you much on Church history. How did you go with the rest of the book?

I see no one has given you any Matthew Gallatin links, simmmo! I don't know if you've found him or not, so let me provide you with a few. I wasn't SDA, but I did have a brief run-in with the very small First Day Adventists that shaped some of my theology for several years. I also later became a Presbyterian, and some of Matthew Gallatin's work helped me to finally ditch my Calvinism (along with some other sources).

But, without further ado, some Gallatin links!

Pilgrims from Paradise, his archived podcast from Ancient Faith Radio.

Hmmm...actually, this is all I could find. I thought he had a blog or some other website that had collected some of his essays/articles, but I can't find it now. Sorry about that. If you Google his name, tons of stuff comes up for him (writing as well as videos) but it's a piece here, a bit there...no collections of his stuff. How unfortunate!

Still, I've enjoyed his podcast (what I've listened to, anyway) and some articles I've found of his. Just poke around, there's plenty out there! He also seems to be fairly well-known in certain Protestant circles (I gather from the Googling I just did). I didn't realize he had the reach he seems to have!

[simmmo]

I was born and raised SDA, and converted to Orthodox. You'll find a number of converts from SDA at St. Silouan's in Walla Walla, WA and at St. Andrew's in Riverside, CA. I'm at Holy Trinity in Butte, MT.

Lately this video is making the rounds on Facebook, to show that the Orthodox are persecuting SDA people;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo5lK9qLK7w

Sometimes those who the Adventists name as their true Christians in ancient history are actually Eastern Orthodox in belief and practice. Lately, there is a tiny bit of awareness happening of the Orthodox church mostly because of the people converting in America.

Thanks for this. If I vist the US soon I will try to go to one of those congregations.

That incident caught on film is rather unfortunate. But I think the SDAs need to realise that proselytising in countries that are historically Orthodox, who are also recovering from real persecution under the communist regime, might be pretty hostile towards those who are trying to take advantage of the spiritual vulnerability of the people there. It really is quite brazen for Protestants to come into Orthodox countries as if these were godless missionary frontiers. Whilst I don't condone the confrontation, it is understandable. Being a former SDA, you'll realise how this sort of incident will only fuel the persecution complex many SDAs feel. As for many of the SDA comments on that Youtube clip, they forget that when the traders and money changers were defiling the temple in Jerusalem, Jesus himself was rather hostile as well. (also for the SDAs to put a literature stand up on the route of a procession is also quite provocative)

I know that many SDAs are claiming that some of the very early church fathers were something like proto-Adventists. Men like St Polycarp, St Patrick are claimed by SDAs. I think the awareness of the reality of early Christianity will point many to Orthodoxy - over against popular Protestant treatments of the history of the Church found in books like TGC.  

[Ortho_cat]

is SDA considered a cult?

[simmmo]

is SDA considered a cult?

Opinions differ amongst Protestants. I would say that SDAs are at the very limit of (small "o") orthodoxy. They believe in the Trinity (although this was not always the case), virgin birth etc. However, they do have some beliefs that are more cult-like, e.g. belief that one of their founders, Ellen G. White, was a prophet. I would have no hesitation in saying that "conservative" SDAs (the "true believers") have more in common with the cults than they do with orthodox Christianity. But, like other Protestant denominations, there is quite a wide spectrum of Adventists, so it isn't so easy to categorise them.

I should also mention that they participate in the World Council of Churches.

[simmmo]

This is very interesting. I was born and raised SDA. But am investigating Orthodoxy. I agree 100% regarding TGC. It doesn't even acknowledge the Christian East whatsoever. It is very unreliable on Church History - and that's putting it mildly. In fact, it is written to deliberately give the reader a very bad image of the orthodox church in the early centuries.

So there is an SDA who has become Orthodox! Matthew Gallatin! That's very intereting. I wouldn't mind speaking with him. I know of quite a few RCC converts. But no EO converts.

But yes, TGC is not recommended reading - well it would give some insight into the thinking of SDAs, but it won't enlighten you much on Church history. How did you go with the rest of the book?

I see no one has given you any Matthew Gallatin links, simmmo! I don't know if you've found him or not, so let me provide you with a few. I wasn't SDA, but I did have a brief run-in with the very small First Day Adventists that shaped some of my theology for several years. I also later became a Presbyterian, and some of Matthew Gallatin's work helped me to finally ditch my Calvinism (along with some other sources).

But, without further ado, some Gallatin links!

Pilgrims from Paradise, his archived podcast from Ancient Faith Radio.

Hmmm...actually, this is all I could find. I thought he had a blog or some other website that had collected some of his essays/articles, but I can't find it now. Sorry about that. If you Google his name, tons of stuff comes up for him (writing as well as videos) but it's a piece here, a bit there...no collections of his stuff. How unfortunate!

Still, I've enjoyed his podcast (what I've listened to, anyway) and some articles I've found of his. Just poke around, there's plenty out there! He also seems to be fairly well-known in certain Protestant circles (I gather from the Googling I just did). I didn't realize he had the reach he seems to have!

Thanks for this. his podcast looks great!

[jnorm888]

...and it is a TERRIBLE book! 

For those of you who are unaware, it was written by Ellen G. White who was the founder of the Seventh Day Adventist church. My wife was talking to a former teacher's wife (she went to an Adventist high school) about Orthodoxy and suggested reading "Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells" since Matthew Gallatin is a former Adventist himself. However, her reply was that she would read it if we read TGC. So I downloaded it to my Nook and began reading.

I'm absolutely astounded how so many people can believe the nonsense this woman wrote. I'm not even 1/4 of the way through before I see gross historical errors, especially concerning the early church. For one thing, Ellen G. White doesn't mention the split in 1054 in some of her earlier chapters on the medieval church and just assumes it was all Roman Catholic. (So far I haven't read of any reference to Eastern Orthodoxy in TGC but I also want to note that I haven't finished the book yet).

One of the things that absolutely astounded me was that she accused monks of forging documents. Yet, she also never provided what[ specific documents were forged and how she knew they were forged. My guess is that Ellen White never realized that if she had to call in to question monks' documents that she would have to call a lot of Western history into question as well. If anyone else has ever read the book How the Irish Saved Civilization, you probably know what I'm talking about. We have monks to thank for preserving tons and tons of history including non-Christian history. They worked painfully hard to make sure they got all the details just right even if they thought what they were copying was disgusting (some of it definitely was).

Over and over and over again she calls things and people "of Satan." I swear this woman was like Bobby Bouche's mother on the movie The Waterboy, calling everything "THE DEVIL!" if she didn't like it. And all the while I'm reading I'm thinking, "Really? You think Satan is hiding behind every bush ready to pounce and getcha?"

I could go on and on. I misplaced my Nook temporarily but I'll post some more stuff when I find it later.

Check this out:
http://www.nonsda.org/egw/egw102.shtml (Paradise Lost's Themes
Found in Ellen White's Books!
By Dirk Anderson, June 2008)

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

I read her book Patriarchs and Prophets. I read it before I was Orthodox, and I really liked it at the time. She is definitely a gifted writer, IMO. But I'm sure if I revisited it now I would notice many unorthodox things about it. But like I said, she had a gifted pen and I can see why 7th Day Adventism is so popular. I would never recommend her writings to anyone though.


Selam

[rakovsky]

Why pay for "The Great Controversy" when you can read it online:
http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html

The book doesn't recognize that Orthodoxy exists as a separate Christian group.

Probably the main relevant thing is her discussion of worshiping on Sundays (http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc3.html):

Satan, working through unconsecrated leaders of the church, tampered with the fourth commandment also, and essayed to set aside the ancient Sabbath, the day which God had blessed and sanctified (Genesis 2:2, 3), and in its stead to exalt the festival observed by the heathen as "the venerable day of the sun." This change was not at first attempted openly. In the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians. They were jealous for the honor of God, and, believing that His law is immutable, they zealously guarded the sacredness of its precepts..

I think she may be making a mistake here about keeping the Saturday Sabbath, because I vaguely remember reading a 2nd-3rd century Church father saying the Sabbath was changed in the Church from Saturday to Sunday.

OK, it seems she isn't badmouthing Sunday worship yet at this point, just the discontinuance of Saturday worship:

But with great subtlety Satan worked through his agents to bring about his object. That the attention of the people might be called to the Sunday, it was made a festival in honor of the resurrection of Christ. Religious services were held upon it; yet it was regarded as a day of recreation, the Sabbath being still sacredly observed. ...While Christians generally continued to observe the Sunday as a joyous festival, he led them, in order to show their hatred of Judaism, to make the Sabbath a fast, a day of sadness and gloom.

Well, I am doubtful about this last part of it always being a gloomy fast day. First of all, there is no kneeling on Saturdays in Orthodoxy and I think we can have wine and oil on Saturdays to honor it.  
But anyway in the paragraph above it seems she is saying Sunday worship was nice, it was a honoring Christ's resurrection. It was a "joyous festival." Everything was cool except for the supposed "Saturday fasting."

But then in the next paragraph she opens a massive anti-Sunday artillery barrage:

In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. (See Appendix .) The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church. But while many God-fearing Christians were gradually led to regard Sunday as possessing a degree of sacredness, they still held the true Sabbath as the holy of the Lord and observed it in obedience to the fourth commandment.

KABOOM!

Oh yeah and what about that little "See Appendix" thing?

The Sunday Law of Constantine.--The law issued by the emperor Constantine on the seventh of March, A.D. 321, regarding a day of rest from labor, reads thus:
"All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable Day of the Sun..." http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gcappendix.html#n4

So there you go, throw in some insuations about sun worship because the Latin name for the day of the week when Christ arose in Aramaic-speaking Judea was "Day of the Sun". Then talk about the bishops' "thirst for power" and the pagans' only "nominal" conversion to Christianity and voila, that nice-sounding "joyous festival" on Sunday a few paragraphs earlier doesn't sound so nice after all, does it?

I do think she could be inadvertently bringing up an issue about the importance of the Saturday Sabbath for Jewish Christians still observing the Mosaic Law. But she is talking about everyone observing the Mosaic Sabbath. Any real point she is making gets lost in the mental "exercizes".

[mabsoota]

i used to think the seventh day adventists were Christians until i visited a church in liverpool in 1990's (when i was protestant) with a SDA friend.
they were quite clear that i was going to hell and that we did not share similar beliefs  so after that i started to consider them a cult similar to Christianity, but lacking enough of the basic doctrines to be Christian.
it was interesting to see how my SDA friend (asian) and our muslim friend washed the cheap minced lamb (we were poor students) in the same way, to get the blood out. at least i learned some good recipes from them!

i think one can have a valid spiritual experience in the SDA group, but a quick read of the book of Acts (esp. chapter 15) should lead most truth seeking members out of the door.

[PeterTheAleut]

Why pay for "The Great Controversy" when you can read it online:
http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc.html

The book doesn't recognize that Orthodoxy exists as a separate Christian group.

Probably the main relevant thing is her discussion of worshiping on Sundays (http://www.greatcontroversy.org/books/gc/gc3.html):

Satan, working through unconsecrated leaders of the church, tampered with the fourth commandment also, and essayed to set aside the ancient Sabbath, the day which God had blessed and sanctified (Genesis 2:2, 3), and in its stead to exalt the festival observed by the heathen as "the venerable day of the sun." This change was not at first attempted openly. In the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians. They were jealous for the honor of God, and, believing that His law is immutable, they zealously guarded the sacredness of its precepts..

I think she may be making a mistake here about keeping the Saturday Sabbath, because I vaguely remember reading a 2nd-3rd century Church father saying the Sabbath was changed in the Church from Saturday to Sunday.

In fact, that is the very basis of SDA arguments against us, IIRC. They point out how the Church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, though she had no divine authority to do so. However, our hymnography for Holy Saturday shows very clearly that we have NOT changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, regardless of what a 2nd-or-3rd century father has to say on the matter. Saturday is still the Sabbath, but its glory has faded in comparison to the even greater glory of the Resurrection, which we celebrate on Sunday, the transcendent 8th day of the Kingdom.

[simmmo]

I read her book Patriarchs and Prophets. I read it before I was Orthodox, and I really liked it at the time. She is definitely a gifted writer, IMO. But I'm sure if I revisited it now I would notice many unorthodox things about it. But like I said, she had a gifted pen and I can see why 7th Day Adventism is so popular. I would never recommend her writings to anyone though.


Selam

Yes, I have read her "Steps to Christ" and "Desire of Ages" as well, which are EGW classics. Ultimately, though, she is a prodauct of her time and context. Any attempt to make her transcend this is futile. Her "Great Controversy" is a really poor book in terms of both prose and history. It has been shown that she borrowed from many sources - many times without acknowledgement. I would definitely advise people to not read the "Great Controversy". But if they do read it, they should check all her historical assertions with a good text book on Church history. The anti-Catholicism in that book is basically identical toother Protestant groups' views. She also completely fails to deal with the Christian East.

[simmmo]

i used to think the seventh day adventists were Christians until i visited a church in liverpool in 1990's (when i was protestant) with a SDA friend.
they were quite clear that i was going to hell and that we did not share similar beliefs  so after that i started to consider them a cult similar to Christianity, but lacking enough of the basic doctrines to be Christian.
it was interesting to see how my SDA friend (asian) and our muslim friend washed the cheap minced lamb (we were poor students) in the same way, to get the blood out. at least i learned some good recipes from them!

i think one can have a valid spiritual experience in the SDA group, but a quick read of the book of Acts (esp. chapter 15) should lead most truth seeking members out of the door.

I think you're getting mixed up here. SDAs do not believe in "hell" per se. They believe that the wicked will be annihilated. Additionally, many SDAs are vegetarian. Those who eat meat adhere, somewhat, to the food laws in the Torah (no pork, shell fish etc). But I've never heard of or seen a meat eating SDA wash out the blood from lamb or any other kind of meat.

[Nephi]

They're vague in their Trinitarian/Christological formulations. For one they often believe that St. Michael the Archangel is the pre-incarnate Christ (like the Jehovah's Witnesses), although this may just be among the more traditional Adventists. They also use confusing language to describe the Incarnation itself... it doesn't seem like they know if they're Nestorian, Chalcedonian, Eutychian, or what. I suppose if you ignore their Christology, they do confess a Trinity but they seem to have a strange way of formulating it (undoubtably due to their previous non-Trinitarian stance early in the 20th century). Seventh-day Adventists are usually (always?) baptized upon entry into Orthodoxy, like Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons.

Combine the above with Annihilationism (complete destruction of the wicked in lieu of the typical hell), Soul Sleep (people are effectively non-existent upon death, until resurrection), Investigative Judgment/Heavenly Sanctuary (their explanation as to why the prophecies of Christ's return in 1844 AD didn't seem to come to fruition; they say that Christ entered the "Heavenly Sanctuary" to begin the final phases of the "investigative judgment"), their end-times prophecies (persecution of non-Sunday worshipers and enforcement of Sunday worship, and huge emphasis on Bible prophecy interpretation), their view of themselves as the "Remnant Church" (or part of it, Saturday Sabbath worship being the mark of the remnants), extremely anti-Catholic views (Pope effectively anti-Christ, etc.), and so on and you have a fringe heretical cult pretending to be your next-door Evangelical church.

Effectively their entire church's theology presupposes the truth of post-"Enlightenment" anti-clerical/Catholic historical revisionism, which the very existence of Eastern churches proves to be a load of crock (they go along with the idea that a power-hungry Pope ruled the entire visible church with an iron fist from St. Constantine onward). And this is why EGW's works are complete bollocks.

[rakovsky]

In fact, that is the very basis of SDA arguments against us, IIRC. They point out how the Church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, though she had no divine authority to do so. However, our hymnography for Holy Saturday shows very clearly that we have NOT changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, regardless of what a 2nd-or-3rd century father has to say on the matter. Saturday is still the Sabbath, but its glory has faded in comparison to the even greater glory of the Resurrection, which we celebrate on Sunday, the transcendent 8th day of the Kingdom.

Thanks for the explanation, Peter. It makes sense too, since in Russian "Subbota"(from "Sabbath") is Saturday.

[PeterTheAleut]

In fact, that is the very basis of SDA arguments against us, IIRC. They point out how the Church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, though she had no divine authority to do so. However, our hymnography for Holy Saturday shows very clearly that we have NOT changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, regardless of what a 2nd-or-3rd century father has to say on the matter. Saturday is still the Sabbath, but its glory has faded in comparison to the even greater glory of the Resurrection, which we celebrate on Sunday, the transcendent 8th day of the Kingdom.

Thanks for the explanation, Peter. It makes sense too, since in Russian "Subbota"(from "Sabbath") is Saturday.

As well as in the Romance languages--for instance, Spanish for Saturday is "Sabado".

[rakovsky]

By the way Peter, regarding your avatar:

[rakovsky]

If goats can do it, so can dogs.

And yes I can relate this to the topic at hand.

[LBK]

In fact, that is the very basis of SDA arguments against us, IIRC. They point out how the Church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, though she had no divine authority to do so. However, our hymnography for Holy Saturday shows very clearly that we have NOT changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, regardless of what a 2nd-or-3rd century father has to say on the matter. Saturday is still the Sabbath, but its glory has faded in comparison to the even greater glory of the Resurrection, which we celebrate on Sunday, the transcendent 8th day of the Kingdom.

Thanks for the explanation, Peter. It makes sense too, since in Russian "Subbota"(from "Sabbath") is Saturday.

As well as in the Romance languages--for instance, Spanish for Saturday is "Sabado".

The same in Greek: Sabbaton.

[PeterTheAleut]

If goats can do it, so can dogs.

And yes I can relate this to the topic at hand.

From Ring Tales - Open Season

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Protestant Discussion (Moderator: PeterTheAleut) > Topic: So I'm currently reading, "The Great Controversy"....