OO Eucharistic Practices and EO-OO Reunion

[Severian]

I am putting this here under the assumption it will not turn polemical. Would various OO Eucharistic practices hinder reunion? For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy. Also, the Armenian use of unleavened bread, which AFAIK defies certain EO canons.

Discuss!

[Alpo]

IMO use of unleavened bread is an issue but other than that I don't think non-Byzantine practices will cause any problem once people get used to the idea that there's more to Orthodoxy than Constantinopole and Moscow.

[primuspilus]

The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP

[Alpo]

The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP

Byzantine churches adore Eucharist too. It's done during pre-sanctified liturgies.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I would think, that aside from the Byzantine mixing, that the Eucharist practices are what can unite us most, however, at the same time, it is precisely over mutual reception of the Eucharist in which we are currently divided, and so perhaps it is equally the crux of reunion.  The Holy Communion is what makes us One Body, and so it is not surprising that the tangible symbol of our divisions is Excommunication

Whenever I am blessed to receive the Holy Communion, I pray earnestly for reunion and for the sanctity of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in the Lord, even if the hands and feet are not getting along so well.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Severian]

The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP

Byzantine churches adore Eucharist too. It's done during pre-sanctified liturgies.

Do you mind posting the text of this adoration?

[dzheremi]

The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP

So do we. Severian should have qualified that statement, as it is not Roman Catholic style adoration with separating the Eucharist from the service and putting it into a monstrance or whatever (that wouldn't even work, as we use leavened bread, same as the EO). I would post a picture to demonstrate our proper adoration in a liturgical context, but last time I did Habte became upset. Let's just say it involves prostration before and affirmation of the reality of the gifts (that they are truly the Body and Blood of Christ) as part of preparation to receive during the same liturgy. 

Unless, of course, Severian had some other activity in mind, in which case I don't know about it.

[Severian]

Severian should have qualified that statement, as it is not Roman Catholic style adoration with separating the Eucharist from the service and putting it into a monstrance

Which is exactly why I said: "we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy." I never said or implied that we separate the Eucharist from the Liturgy/service.

"We worship Your holy body[...] and your precious blood." -Intro to the Fraction

http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/index.php?a=view&id=2051

Here's to give you all an idea as to what it looks like:

[dzheremi]

Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.

Sorry, Severian, for not catching the "in the liturgy" part. Now that you point that out, I don't understand PP's objection at all. Also, I didn't mean to imply that you had written that the adoration is outside of the liturgy. That bit of explanation was for PP's benefit, as I think there is a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Eucharistic adoration that associates it with only the Roman Catholics, so it bears explaining that when we talk about it as Orthodox people, we don't mean at all what the Latins mean.

[Severian]

Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.

Sorry, Severian, for not catching the "in the liturgy" part. Now that you point that out, I don't understand PP's objection at all.

No problem.

[witega]

Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.

Sorry, Severian, for not catching the "in the liturgy" part. Now that you point that out, I don't understand PP's objection at all.

I presume pp also missed the 'in the liturgy part' and made the assumption Severian was talking about something like RC adoration services. What you and Severian describe is no different from what EO's do so obviously wouldn't be a problem for reunion.

[Severian]

^Thanks. What about the Armenian use of unleavened bread?

PS- @Witega Who is the Saint in your avatar?

[Αριστοκλής]

IMO use of unleavened bread is an issue but other than that I don't think non-Byzantine practices will cause any problem once people get used to the idea that there's more to Orthodoxy than Constantinopole and Moscow.

Especially if one reads the canons.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Hahaha. That's the exact picture I posted before that upset Habte. Oh well.

I didn't upset me, it just makes me uncomfortable.  However, I post images that equally make some folks uncomfortable, so its all fair game so long as our intentions are not just to offend. In the Ethiopian tradition we have many icons which  are not accepted in the Byzantine Church, and so I admit I've also posted these and others which are offensive to some folks here, and for that I do humbly apologize.

In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Jonathan]

In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Just out of curiosity, why? Is there a link to a previous thread where this was discussed?

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Just out of curiosity, why? Is there a link to a previous thread where this was discussed?

Well, technically if a priest or deacon took the picture it would be good and legal (that picture is from inside the altar and only ordained clergy can do inside), however culturally it would be considered in terribly poor taste.  It is impolite even just to talk about the details of Holy Communion, let alone to have that photograph of the priests' celebration.  Some people take photographs of their babies first Communion, but I understand that photograph was of when the priests were about to take Holy Communion. In the Ethiopia Church this is when the curtain is closed and the view to Altar blocked.  It isn't opened again until the Communion is brought out for the people.  If we close the curtain, it is for a reason, and to take a picture of what is happening behind the closed curtain would be the same error as peaking inside, which of course would be so sacrilegious that I'm not quite sure anyone would even try it



stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Nephi]

In the Ethiopia Church this is when the curtain is closed and the view to Altar blocked.  It isn't opened again until the Communion is brought out for the people.  If we close the curtain, it is for a reason, and to take a picture of what is happening behind the closed curtain would be the same error as peaking inside, which of course would be so sacrilegious that I'm not quite sure anyone would even try it

Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?

[Father H]

I am putting this here under the assumption it will not turn polemical. Would various OO Eucharistic practices hinder reunion? For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy. Also, the Armenian use of unleavened bread, which AFAIK defies certain EO canons.

Discuss!

1.  "EO" offer distinct body and blood when celebrating Liturgy of St. James
2.  "EO" adore the Body and Blood in Liturgy
3.  Azymes a bit more sticky, but possible to work through imo

[Alpo]

The only issue I'd have is the adoration. I just feel that the Eucharist is for eating.

PP

Byzantine churches adore Eucharist too. It's done during pre-sanctified liturgies.

Do you mind posting the text of this adoration?

There is no text except "The Light of Christ shines for all". A priest walks walks around the nave with with a Chalice in his hands and IIRC with his head covered while people prostrate to the ground until the priests returns to the altar. Technically speaking people won't even look at the priest nor the chalice since they are to prostrate the whole time.

[Jonathan]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In Ethiopian tradition, that photograph would be sacrilege, but I can respect our sister jurisdictions Traditions

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Just out of curiosity, why? Is there a link to a previous thread where this was discussed?

Well, technically if a priest or deacon took the picture it would be good and legal (that picture is from inside the altar and only ordained clergy can do inside), however culturally it would be considered in terribly poor taste.  It is impolite even just to talk about the details of Holy Communion, let alone to have that photograph of the priests' celebration.  Some people take photographs of their babies first Communion, but I understand that photograph was of when the priests were about to take Holy Communion. In the Ethiopia Church this is when the curtain is closed and the view to Altar blocked.  It isn't opened again until the Communion is brought out for the people.  If we close the curtain, it is for a reason, and to take a picture of what is happening behind the closed curtain would be the same error as peaking inside, which of course would be so sacrilegious that I'm not quite sure anyone would even try it



stay blessed,
habte selassie

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant kneeling was sacrilege, so I was confused. I agree that photos of the anaphora and people communing are not the norm.

[Severian]

I am putting this here under the assumption it will not turn polemical. Would various OO Eucharistic practices hinder reunion? For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy. Also, the Armenian use of unleavened bread, which AFAIK defies certain EO canons.

Discuss!

1.  "EO" offer distinct body and blood when celebrating Liturgy of St. James

The Antiochian parish I attended years ago also separated the two, oddly enough.

[NicholasMyra]

For example, Copts separating the body and blood (which is the older practice, btw), we also adore the body and blood in the Liturgy.

Those would not be a problem.

The Armenian unleavened bread would cause a ruckus.

[Salpy]

The Armenian unleavened bread would cause a ruckus.

It probably would be a problem for the EO's, which I think is too bad.  Again, this is something that underscores the greater tolerance for diversity in practice among the OO's.

The use of unleavened bread in the Armenian Church is ancient and predates Chalcedon, and it was not a problem for anyone before the schism. 

http://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today

1700 years ago, this sort of diversity was the norm throughout the Christian world.  Perhaps someday it will be again.   

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The Armenian unleavened bread would cause a ruckus.

It probably would be a problem for the EO's, which I think is too bad.  Again, this is something that underscores the greater tolerance for diversity in practice among the OO's.

The use of unleavened bread in the Armenian Church is ancient and predates Chalcedon, and it was not a problem for anyone before the schism. 

http://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today

1700 years ago, this sort of diversity was the norm throughout the Christian world.  Perhaps someday it will be again.   

True, very interesting point. Eucharistic diversity was more tolerated back in the day, it seems that the first schisms began a downward spiral of anathemas and canons seeming to mutually target each other so.  In the Oriental Orthodox communion, the sister churches seem to maintain this more flexible theology as was more the norm in the earlier days of Christianity.  If we held it together with such minor distinctions before, by Grace we can surely come together again inevitably.  Indeed, the current union between the sister jurisdiction of Oriental Orthodox is a good example of how in practice this can happen, and our inter-faith fellowship both through the Mysteries and through clergy organization is a model for Reunion between Oriental and Byzantine, indeed even perhaps bringing back in the Latins too 

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Shant]

Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?

We do likewise during the offering of the gifts by the deacon (which occurs quite early in the Divine Liturgy) as well as when the priest communes.

All this talk of unleavened bread and no one has brought up the fact that we use wine that is not mixed with water. 

[Severian]

Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?

We do likewise during the offering of the gifts by the deacon (which occurs quite early in the Divine Liturgy) as well as when the priest communes.

All this talk of unleavened bread and no one has brought up the fact that we use wine that is not mixed with water. 

[zekarja]

Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?

We do likewise during the offering of the gifts by the deacon (which occurs quite early in the Divine Liturgy) as well as when the priest communes.

All this talk of unleavened bread and no one has brought up the fact that we use wine that is not mixed with water. 

The water (called the fervor of the saints) is added to the Cup after the consecration (Institution Narrative and Epiclesis) in the Byzantine Liturgy. Perhaps EOs would find it Theologically wrong not to add the water? I imagine that, even without the water added, that which is in the Cup would still be revered as Christ's Blood.

In Christ,
zekarja

[sheenj]

Just curious. Do all OO churches close off the altar for parts of the Liturgy, or does this vary?

In West Syrian tradition, the altar curtain is closed during the fraction and comixture. This takes place after the Diptychs and before the Elevation of the Holy Mysteries.

[Nephi]

Thanks for the responses. My EO church does not close the altar off during a normal Liturgy, but I have been to an EO church that does so maybe it's my church that's out of the norm.

[kijabeboy03]

I don't know what the historic practice of the Byzantine Orthodox churches in Anatolia/Syria was, but in older Russian Orthodox practice the curtain's closed almost as much as it's open. It's more moderated in many parishes though, with symbolic tie-ins to the life of Christ.

Thanks for the responses. My EO church does not close the altar off during a normal Liturgy, but I have been to an EO church that does so maybe it's my church that's out of the norm.

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