Is Religion Really Needed in the World?

[JamesR]

Another one of my controversial mood-swings that I have on here every couple months where I say something spiritually detrimental and then go back to normal a couple days later.

Is religion really needed in the world? The purpose of most all religions in the world--in a very broad sense--is to better mankind by offering some type of moral guidance along with mystical and/or Sacramental grace and some special path that will lead to eternal bliss or something. They all claim to be the solution to fix mankind of its problems. But this is also their biggest flaw. If certain people do not entirely adhere to their solution, then that religion condemns them and only promotes more hatred and problems in the world. In a sense, all religions are in a capitalistic rivalry with each other to hold a monopoly on the market--in this case, the market is peoples' souls, and to put their competition (other religions) out of business through promoting petty nationalistic patriotism among their adherents so that their adherents will shun and hate the other religion, thus just promoting rivalry and hatred in society. Instead of really fixing any problems, it only makes things worse.

Maybe the Marxists were right that religion is the opium of the people because it prevents any societal progress from ever being made and promotes people to submit to the bourgeois--which in this case, is the leaders of the particular religion, who in turn pollute the people by telling them to just accept the way things are in the world and focus on this theoretical next world that may or may not exist. Go ahead, let the world burn, screw it! Let the children starve and the poor suffer, stay being sheep taken advantage of by the rich! Because if you listen to me and follow the rules I give you, then someday you will have paradise at this big place in the sky where you will see all your dead family and friends!

Why do we focus so much on this next transcendant world that may or may not exist when we cannot even handle our own world that we are in now? Why don't we just try to fix this world instead of worrying about the next and if another world does exist after death, then we can handle it then instead of further screwing our present world to worry about this next world? I'm starting to find Marxism as being more of a practical philosophy of the world because it seeks to make real, applicable change that can be made into a reality right now. We can create the perfect utopia right here on Earth right now if we really tried. Isn't this nobler than the goal of religions which only focus on the next world at the expense of our present world?

Really, religions seem to only poison modern society. Take Evangelical missionaries for example. They go into these really backwards parts of the world, and instead of teaching them how to meet their basic needs and form a stable society, they only give them even more problems to face. Now not only do these native people have to suffer with poverty, disease, warfare and other natural disasters, but now they have to worry about what some magic guy in the sky thinks of them and they have to jump through hoops to please him even though He has never done anything for them yet this narcissist still demands eternal praise from everyone in the entire universe just to satisfy His godly ego because apparently an all-powerful God who is perfect still needs the eternal praise from something as petty as humans to satisfy His narcissistic ego. Talk about insecurity! God seems like the popular but insecure teenage girl in High-School who needs to constantly be told that she is pretty by the nerdy guys who are infatuated with her that she would never even date or give the time of day to.

Guess what guys! Even though you are miserable in this world, if you do not start worshipping this invisible guy in the sky, then you will also face eternal misery when you die at a level so great that it would make your earthly pain right now seem like a walk in the park! Great! So you want to worship Him and get with the plan? Perfect! We'll tell you what you have to do! You now have to accept our western censorship and ideals that will butcher your heathen, subhuman non-European culture because we have it all figured out and carry the White man's burden of civilizing you brown/black skinned monkeys! So let us now tell you how you have all been living in sin for hundreds of years. All of your women are whores because they expose their chests and wear little clothing opposed to our Victorian standards even though there was no sexual intent in it at all, you have to obey our rules about how you have sex and how many people you can marry, and now you have to start hating homosexuals and letting us exploit your land of its natural resources and enslave you!

I do not know who I despise more. Evangelicals or the Roman Catholic Church. I hate seeing another Mexican who is a Roman Catholic. It is just a sign of weakness accepting colonialism. I'd rather them be Marxists and focus on making a real difference in the world, or even return back to Aztec neo-paganism than adhere to the religion that was forced upon them. I imagine that Lenin felt the same way about seeing fellow Russians who were Orthodox. I sympathize for him.

So tell me again how religion helps anyone? It just introduces new problems on people who are already suffering, impedes upon any progress ever being made in society and as we will now discuss, only promotes more hatred, distance and intolerance among the world. I hate how religion can honestly condemn a perfectly good person to the fires of Hell just for not adhering to that particular religion even though they could have been one of the greatest persons in the world. Ask an Evangelical what they think of John Lennon, Gandhi, Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha) or some other great, peace-loving person who wanted to make a difference in the world and most assuredly I tell you that the Evangelical will say that these people are still evil and are in Hell right now because they did not formally 'believe' in this God guy. I do not think it is a coincidence that some of the most spiritually enlightened, peace-loving people were irreligious.

Religion seems like an inferior stage in a person's moral development. Among the people who only judge goodness by whether someone 'believed' in God or not and accepted the way things are in our world. However, to be fair, this is mostly just among western Christianity, although I see it to an extent in Orthodoxy. While on the other hand, eventually more enlightened people rise above this childish disposition and pursue peace and righteousness for what it truly is denying the silly hindrance that religion places on them.

I want peace. I want utopia. I want an end to suffering. And there are many people who also wanted the same thing and advocated a message about this. How is it that these religions can be so undeveloped that they would actually condemn these people of such noble ideals just because they did not formally belong to their religion or 'believe' in a particular diety? If their God is a god who hates peace loving people who are so morally great just because they do not believe in Him, then that is a pretty lousy god. Bob Marley, Tupac and John Lennon would make better gods than a God like that. At least they had proper ideals. Religion only promotes hatred because it gives people pride over other types of people, further separates us as humans by causing differences and quarrels among us, and on top of that, impedes any earthly progress in society and condemns people who love peace just because they did not formally belong to that religion.

I acknowledge that radical atheism has also led to evil and impedes upon progress in society. So I am not in anyway advocated that. Radical atheism reduces humans to naturalistic animals with no morality, thus making the idea of progress or utopia meaningless, and the notion of evolutionary natural selection and Ayn Rand's objectivism only acts as an idea to justify the bourgeois exploiting the poor without feeling shame. It is another threat to earthly utopia.

I think that nontheism is better than atheism because it rejects the silly differences and problems that religion raises, but also reject the deprivation that atheism brings. It promotes people to still strive for goodness but to do it without the hindrance that comes from religion. Is Marxism perhaps a better worldview because it seeks to create a utopia now instead of just being lazy sheeping and waiting for the next world?

Thoughts?

[Red A.]

I have

I say

I give

I do not

I despise more.

I hate 

I sympathize

I hate

I tell you

I do not

I see it

I want

I want

I want

I acknowledge

I think

.

[Asteriktos]

My 2 cents... St. James defines "true religion" in a way that involves helping others and transformation of ourselves. It's not about just being moral, but being transformed. If Jesus is who the Church says He is--if God is who the Church says He is--then whatever you call it, the Christian faith is much, much more than man's attempt to be good or do X, Y, and Z. For one thing, it's God helping us do the doing. God. Think about that. God. And if there's a God like the Christian religion says there is, we'd best pay attention to what he says if we have any type of taste for truth and righteousness. Now, if there is no God then I agree with you that religion is, at best, good for only social interaction and moral guidance, and can easily be corrupted. But who says God doesn't exist?

[ialmisry]

I have

I say

I give

I do not

I despise more.

I hate 

I sympathize

I hate

I tell you

I do not

I see it

I want

I want

I want

I acknowledge

I think

.

Do you see a pattern?

[Red A.]

I have

I say

I give

I do not

I despise more.

I hate 

I sympathize

I hate

I tell you

I do not

I see it

I want

I want

I want

I acknowledge

I think

.

Do you see a pattern?

Just jumped out at me.

[LizaSymonenko]

Orthodoxy is not a religion.

It is a way of life.

No Orthodoxy = death

[Nephi]

Orthodoxy is not a religion.

It is a way of life.

This is painfully too similar to the overly-used phrase, "it's not a religion, it's a relationship!"

[Timon]

I dont know how to respond to all that.  I guess I would say that, yes, I think true religion is needed in the world. That response seems almost too simple considering how much you wrote.

You post so many interesting topics each day that i cant help but wonder what it would be like to go to your school and be in your class.  You certainly dont seem like all the other 16 year olds running around. (and I dont mean that to be a bad thing.) Do you get into discussions like this with your teachers??

[augustin717]

There were instances where Orthodoxy, mainly through its lower clergy, was, indeed a factor of progress and fueled class hatred and class struggle of the weak against the strong. Such was the case oftentimes -since I come from there-in Transylvania where orthodoxy was the religion of the lowest class of the society and, insofar as it fueled animus and resistance against the oppressors it can be said to have been a progressive force. One can find many other examples. Religion is quite a neutral weapon: if the upper classes often use it to keep their slaves in line, it also happens that sometimes the slaves use it to get rid of their masters.

[Severian]

Another one of my controversial mood-swings that I have on here every couple months where I say something spiritually detrimental and then go back to normal a couple days later[...]

Has the prophecy come true?! Or are you just expressing yourself?

"It’s truly hilarious in a macabre sort of way to see atheists casting themselves in the role of freedom fighters for humanity and world saviours. These are people who say that existence is meaningless; that human consciousness and sense of self as well as free will are all illusions. That the Principle of Causality is false and that people have resulted from random accidents and are nothing more than jiggling bags of mindless chemicals with absolutely no OBJECTIVE morality to guide them.. And yet atheists see themselves as champions of morality on behalf of humanity! All this would be funny if it weren’t so tragic."

-Anonymous

If you replace the word "Atheist" with "non-theist", the same still applies.

[dzheremi]

Orthodoxy is not a religion.

  Why are people so fond of saying this? It's not only a religion -- it's the right religion. I hope it isn't becoming popular to be like that Youtube video guy with his "I hate religion, but love Jesus" schtick. I thought that was ridiculous coming from that guy (who I'm going to assume is some kind of unaffiliated, "me and my buddy Jesus"-type Protestant, because after all, he hates religion); I think it's doubly ridiculous coming from Orthodox people (my bishop doesn't seem to like that sentiment, either). I became Orthodox because I really believe in this religion. Did I mess up or what?

It is a way of life.

Sure, but does this mean it isn't a religion? Our religion is a way of life in keeping with our faith.

[LizaSymonenko]

Yes....but, it is so much more than a religion.

The guy down the street can go online and get his "minister's" license, file some papers and voila! ....there's a new religion.

Orthodoxy is so much more than that.

That's what I meant.

[Shiny]

Did I not call this? Only a matter of time folks.

[NicholasMyra]

I hate seeing another Mexican who is a Roman Catholic.

James, hominids and even pre-hominids have been forcing practices of all sorts on each other for millions of years. Religion isn't unique here, that's how we function.

I mean, you're doing it right now.

[Nephi]

I hate seeing another Mexican who is a Roman Catholic. It is just a sign of weakness accepting colonialism. I'd rather them be Marxists and focus on making a real difference in the world, or even return back to Aztec neo-paganism than adhere to the religion that was forced upon them.

Not all Mexicans are descended from Aztecs. Also, I don't think any of the ancient Aztecs were "neo-pagans."

[Asteriktos]

Not to mention the word "Aztec" not exactly conjuring up visions of peaceful coexistence, civil sharing of ideas, etc.

[Asteriktos]

Did I not call this? Only a matter of time folks.

Sorry, you said to ignore what you wrote in that thread, so I don't know what you're talking about right now. Or not talking about. Or... well whatever 

[dzheremi]

Is there some way we can make a "Post in 10 years" button that would work like the "Preview" button? You could click on it and it would show you what your post would look like to you in 10 years time so that you could make the necessary changes to avoid being too embarrassed by youthful or otherwise uninformed zeal.

(I know, I know...but it doesn't hurt to imagine such a world. And whoever perfects such technology will never have to work again!)

[neon_knights]

James, spend more time reading the Bible and less time reading the Communist Manifesto.


Maybe try reading Nineteen Eighty-Four.

[neon_knights]

What would happen if the governments of the world all banded together into one and decided to make this "utopia" you speak of? What if the new leaders of the world decided that religion was harmful to the people of the world and outlawed its practice? Isnt that the same thing that you are saying religion encourages, that is, a small group of people thinking for the majority?

[JamesR]

Not to mention the word "Aztec" not exactly conjuring up visions of peaceful coexistence, civil sharing of ideas, etc.

They were one of the first societies to have universal education opposed to just for the wealthy like most of the world at the time

[neon_knights]

Not to mention the word "Aztec" not exactly conjuring up visions of peaceful coexistence, civil sharing of ideas, etc.

They were one of the first societies to have universal education opposed to just for the wealthy like most of the world at the time

[Asteriktos]

Not to mention the word "Aztec" not exactly conjuring up visions of peaceful coexistence, civil sharing of ideas, etc.

They were one of the first societies to have universal education opposed to just for the wealthy like most of the world at the time

Interesting.

[JamesR]

Not to mention the word "Aztec" not exactly conjuring up visions of peaceful coexistence, civil sharing of ideas, etc.

They were one of the first societies to have universal education opposed to just for the wealthy like most of the world at the time

Yes because that is really any worse than the millions of people who have died from European nationalism. All cultures kill people. But why is it that the barbaric practices from Asia, Africa and the Americas are always exaggerated and demonized but the barbaric practices from Europe are always overlooked?

[neon_knights]

Not to mention the word "Aztec" not exactly conjuring up visions of peaceful coexistence, civil sharing of ideas, etc.

They were one of the first societies to have universal education opposed to just for the wealthy like most of the world at the time

Yes because that is really any worse than the millions of people who have died from European nationalism. All cultures kill people. But why is it that the barbaric practices from Asia, Africa and the Americas are always exaggerated and demonized but the barbaric practices from Europe are always overlooked?

Eurocentrism.

[NicholasMyra]

They were one of the first societies to have universal education opposed to just for the wealthy like most of the world at the time

Similarly, Spartans had a similar education system for all people in Sparta.

Similarly, it's just, you know, the Helots weren't people...

[augustin717]

James, spend more time reading the Bible and less time reading the Communist Manifesto.


Maybe try reading Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Oh, please. Orwell was critiquing stalinism from leftist/socialist/marxist positions not right wing/conservative etc. Read some other writings of his too. Like his account of the Spanish civil war where he fought alongside the republicans.

[dzheremi]

Indigenous Mexicans are forcibly converted to Catholicism during the Spanish colonial era and this somehow proves that religion is bad, not that Catholicism is bad, or at least screwed up in its past? How does that work? About as well as Marxism, I suppose...

[Timon]

They were one of the first societies to have universal education opposed to just for the wealthy like most of the world at the time

Similarly, Spartans had a similar education system for all people in Sparta.

Similarly, it's just, you know, the Helots weren't people...

Off subject... but Nicholas, im honored that Augustins hilarious response to my question made it in your signature.

Continue the discussion as normal..

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Let be careful here, Christianity is also filled with imagery which would easily be misunderstood when taken out of context..



stay blessed,
habte selassie

[neon_knights]

James, spend more time reading the Bible and less time reading the Communist Manifesto.


Maybe try reading Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Oh, please. Orwell was critiquing stalinism from leftist/socialist/marxist positions not right wing/conservative etc. Read some other writings of his too. Like his account of the Spanish civil war where he fought alongside the republicans.

I wasn't telling him to read the book because it criticizes stalinism. I was telling him to read the book to get him to understand what can happen when governments start trying to make "utopias".

[augustin717]

James, spend more time reading the Bible and less time reading the Communist Manifesto.


Maybe try reading Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Oh, please. Orwell was critiquing stalinism from leftist/socialist/marxist positions not right wing/conservative etc. Read some other writings of his too. Like his account of the Spanish civil war where he fought alongside the republicans.

I wasn't telling him to read the book because it criticizes stalinism. I was telling him to read the book to get him to understand what can happen when governments start trying to make "utopias".

My point exactly. Orwell was a leftist criticizing what he saw to be a huge deviation from marxism or whatever.m

[Ansgar]

I want peace. I want utopia. I want an end to suffering.

Oh James, you have no idea how much I sympathize with you.
Peace is such a special word. It can be used in so many different ways. But what kind of peace should we be striving for?
You said that you think that marxism might be a better alternative to religion. I can understand why you think this. However, this issue is very complicated. If humans should create a perfect society, great patience would be needed to do it. Unfotunately, patience isn't exactly one of the easiest virtues to achieve. A society is the work of human hands and like any other thing made by humans, it is never more perfect than it's maker. This, I think, is also the reason for why so many attempts to make a perfect society have ended in such failures. It is like constructing a building with broken tools.

I have a hard time answering the question about whether religion is needed in the World. I believe that God is needed in he World,I believe that the Church is needed. We must remember that Christ came down to us, we didn't came up to Christ. I don't think humanity will find themselves in a Utopia before being united with God. Our emotions and lust for confrontation hinder us.

I must say that I really admire you James, and if I may give you a humble advice, I think you should hold on to your faith in God and  the wish of a perfect World. You migh fulfill the words of saint Seraphim of Sarov.

"Acquire a peaceful spirit and then thousands of others around you will be saved".  

[Gorazd]

"Religion" as an abstract thing is not needed. What humanity needs is to be in communion with its creator, to overcome our fallenness through cooperation with his uncreated divine grace, to become according to grace what his is according to nature, to fulfill the true purpose of our creation.

[Cognomen]

All cultures kill people. But why is it that the barbaric practices from Asia, Africa and the Americas are always exaggerated and demonized but the barbaric practices from Europe are always overlooked?

I had to really dig just to find out that there were Crusades and a holocaust.  All the while, events such as the Yangzhou and Boda League Massacres have become deeply ingrained in Western Culture and its lexicon.

So much whining, so many observations. Don't try to figure everything out right now.  It's not working.

[Cognomen]

Let be careful here, Christianity is also filled with imagery which would easily be misunderstood when taken out of context..

Habte, my man.  While your point is valid, you become a caricature of yourself sometimes.

[dzheremi]

All cultures kill people. But why is it that the barbaric practices from Asia, Africa and the Americas are always exaggerated and demonized but the barbaric practices from Europe are always overlooked?

I had to really dig just to find out that there were Crusades and a holocaust.  All the while, events such as the Yangzhou and Boda League Massacres have become deeply ingrained in Western Culture and its lexicon.

Exactly, Cognomen. If I don't stop hearing about the Farhud and the forced conversion of the Nuristani of Afghanistan by Abdur Rahman Khan's forces in the 1890s, I'm going to puke.

Now what's all this I keep hearing about some kind of transatlantic slave trade...? Apparently it was kind of a big deal, but I've never heard about it because of racism.

[Cyrillic]

The poor you will always have with you. Nothing you can do will change that. We live in an imperfect world  and how hard we struggle, at the end of the day the world will still be imperfect. To speak in the words of Leibniz, we live in le meilleur des mondes possibles.  Just deal with it  

Utopias, and especially socialist utopias, can only be brought about by means of violence, and how can something perfect be brought about in an imperfect manner? Have you ever wondered why all marxist countries failed? It's because marxism doesn't work.

If you want to read real philosophy read Plato. Start with the 'Republic' and then follow through with the 'Symposium'. Partly it was Plato that brought me back from lukewarmness and socialism to Christianity.

[Cognomen]

All cultures kill people. But why is it that the barbaric practices from Asia, Africa and the Americas are always exaggerated and demonized but the barbaric practices from Europe are always overlooked?

I had to really dig just to find out that there were Crusades and a holocaust.  All the while, events such as the Yangzhou and Boda League Massacres have become deeply ingrained in Western Culture and its lexicon.

Exactly, Cognomen. If I don't stop hearing about the Farhud and the forced conversion of the Nuristani of Afghanistan by Abdur Rahman Khan's forces in the 1890s, I'm going to puke.

Now what's all this I keep hearing about some kind of transatlantic slave trade...? Apparently it was kind of a big deal, but I've never heard about it because of racism.

  Class!

P.S. I googled this transatlantic slave trade you mentioned, but nothing came up.  Just a bunch of indignation (bordering on obsession, if you ask me) about slavery in Mauritania.

[William]

Did I not call this? Only a matter of time folks.

Nope.

[Cyrillic]

Another one of my controversial mood-swings that I have on here every couple months where I say something spiritually detrimental and then go back to normal a couple days later[...]

Has the prophecy come true?! Or are you just expressing yourself?

"It’s truly hilarious in a macabre sort of way to see atheists casting themselves in the role of freedom fighters for humanity and world saviours. These are people who say that existence is meaningless; that human consciousness and sense of self as well as free will are all illusions. That the Principle of Causality is false and that people have resulted from random accidents and are nothing more than jiggling bags of mindless chemicals with absolutely no OBJECTIVE morality to guide them.. And yet atheists see themselves as champions of morality on behalf of humanity! All this would be funny if it weren’t so tragic."

-Anonymous

If you replace the word "Atheist" with "non-theist", the same still applies.

That's a beautiful quote. I feel sad for people who hold those depressing opinions.

[vamrat]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Let be careful here, Christianity is also filled with imagery which would easily be misunderstood when taken out of context..



stay blessed,
habte selassie

Ok, lets take a look at these just as art.  In the bottom picture I see a man hanging from a cross, His side pierced and bleeding, as well has His hands and feet.  Historically I know that crucifixion was a punnishment used by the Romans for various offenses, though it would be hard to date this image as the soldier is clearly wearing Byzantine equipment which would be after the time period for most recorded crucifixions.  As for figuring the context I can see a woman so inconsolable that she is throwing herself in the arms of another on looker.  Likewise I can see the pained faces of the other women around her and the man over on the right.  Even the soldier, who I would normally assume to have been involved in the execution, seems to have a pained expression.

As for the upper picture, I see the act of the killing taking place.  You have someone who is visibly in pain having is heart ripped out and lifted up to a squinting sun.  There are also four other men other than the executioner and the executee who are holding him down with indifferent looks on their faces.

My guess is that in the second picture someone has been executed and the onlookers are grieving over it.  In the first one the subjects of the painting are actually the ones carrying it out.

[vamrat]

For the OP.  I don't know if the world needs religion.  I know I do.

[genesisone]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Let be careful here, Christianity is also filled with imagery which would easily be misunderstood when taken out of context..



stay blessed,
habte selassie

I know you may not be able to answer this, habte, but the bottom image was created by Christians for Christians. Who painted the upper picture? Was it the Aztecs (?) themselves, or the Conquistadores? If the latter, then it is not properly heathen imagery, but an interpretation of a heathen ritual.

(Your point about imagery being misunderstood is quite correct on its own, of course.)

[Nephi]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Let be careful here, Christianity is also filled with imagery which would easily be misunderstood when taken out of context..



stay blessed,
habte selassie

While I agree with your point about imagery possibly being misunderstood, I don't see how the first one can be mistaken at all. Most people know that the Aztecs performed human sacrifices...

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