Topic: Crossing Arms For Communion

[Gorazd]

Oh, I know the Slavic churches. ROCOR in Germany is actually fighting about kneeling on Sunday. In the UOC-MP, there is no fight, it is very clear that it is wrong.

Liza,
You have a lot of parishes in your area, right? Maybe some parishes could cooperate in holding adult classes.

[Sleeper]

The issue is wanting to rob the faithful of a beautiful custom simply out of adherence to law. It's fundamentalism, pure and simple.

[pensateomnia]

Oh, I know the Slavic churches. ROCOR in Germany is actually fighting about kneeling on Sunday. In the UOC-MP, there is no fight, it is very clear that it is wrong.

Liza,
You have a lot of parishes in your area, right? Maybe some parishes could cooperate in holding adult classes.

In a Russian context, it seems no kneeling would be better, as that comports with the Russian tradition. Ultimately, though, it's up to the bishops. In lands where kneeling has been the tradition for centuries and the Saints, Bishops, and Synods approve, there is no need to beat people over the head with liturgical canons. The Trullan Fathers also tell us to receive the Eucharistic Body in the hand, but I don't see anyone blasting entire Local Churches for ignoring Holy Tradition on that one. I do agree, though, that each Synod and Bishop should be consistent, in accord with their own tradition.

[Gorazd]

The issue is wanting to rob the faithful of a beautiful custom simply out of adherence to law. It's fundamentalism, pure and simple.

It is not about law, but about the Resurrection of Christ, loyalty to the Councils, unity of Orthodox worship accross place and time.
And there is nothing "beautiful" about a custom that is considered by the Church to be a denial of the Ressurection.

In fact, when the Council of Nicea decided to end kneeling on Sundays, there were local churches who had done so for a long time. But the Council decided to standardise on that issue.

[Asteriktos]

First law of forumdynamics: opinions can be neither modified nor completely changed during a discussion

Second law of forumdynamics: threads naturally tend to go from order (on topic) to disorder (off topic)

Third law of forumdynamics: as a thread progresses the substance of posts will decrease at the same rate that the number of posts increase

Fourth law of forumdynamics: when cornered in an argument, a person will invariably say that their opponent simply doesn't understand, and then they will vow to leave the discussion

[soderquj]

From a "http://www.denver.goarch.org/teleturgical_encyclicals/" of Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver of 29 Oct 2003.

"is the policy of the Archdiocese from 1950 when Archbishop Michael was Archbishop, to have everyone kneel, even on Sunday. In his encyclical, Archbishop Michael stated that the kneeling on Sundays, which takes less than two minutes, is not the kneeling of repentance, but the anticipation of the descent of the Holy Spirit Ñ as we do on the day of Pentecost and at every ordination (including those on Sundays!). Who of us has the right to stand, even on Sunday, when the Holy Spirit in a special way comes into our midst to change the bread and the wine into the Very Body and Blood of our Lord? We must not act like the "I am more Orthodox than you are" people who see externals, outer trappings, as more essential than the fervent heart."

[Sleeper]

From a "http://www.denver.goarch.org/teleturgical_encyclicals/" of Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver of 29 Oct 2003.

"is the policy of the Archdiocese from 1950 when Archbishop Michael was Archbishop, to have everyone kneel, even on Sunday. In his encyclical, Archbishop Michael stated that the kneeling on Sundays, which takes less than two minutes, is not the kneeling of repentance, but the anticipation of the descent of the Holy Spirit Ñ as we do on the day of Pentecost and at every ordination (including those on Sundays!). Who of us has the right to stand, even on Sunday, when the Holy Spirit in a special way comes into our midst to change the bread and the wine into the Very Body and Blood of our Lord? We must not act like the "I am more Orthodox than you are" people who see externals, outer trappings, as more essential than the fervent heart."

At last, some sanity.

[Gorazd]

It's not a question of being more or less Orthodox, but of being in line with the mind of the Church or following your own comfort, feeling etc.
If we kneel on every Sunday as on Pentecost, Pentecost loses its special character compared to other Sundays, and Sundays lose their special character compared to weekdays.

[soderquj]

From a "http://www.denver.goarch.org/teleturgical_encyclicals/" of Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver of 29 Oct 2003.

"is the policy of the Archdiocese from 1950 when Archbishop Michael was Archbishop, to have everyone kneel, even on Sunday. In his encyclical, Archbishop Michael stated that the kneeling on Sundays, which takes less than two minutes, is not the kneeling of repentance, but the anticipation of the descent of the Holy Spirit Ñ as we do on the day of Pentecost and at every ordination (including those on Sundays!). Who of us has the right to stand, even on Sunday, when the Holy Spirit in a special way comes into our midst to change the bread and the wine into the Very Body and Blood of our Lord? We must not act like the "I am more Orthodox than you are" people who see externals, outer trappings, as more essential than the fervent heart."

At last, some sanity.

However we have both attending, those that stand and those that kneel, according our Priest it is up to the individual how to demonstrate their fervent heart, it is not Dogma.

[Gorazd]

the individual how to demonstrate their fervent heart

Exactly that is the heart of the problem. In Orthodoxy, we are not supposed to be individuals expressing ourselves, but persons, with Christ living in us, joining us to the mind of the Church.

[LBK]

The kneeling at Pentecost is done during the Vespers service which follows the Liturgy at Pentecost. Strictly speaking, this Kneeling Vespers service should be held in the evening, after sunset, but is, for practical purposes, conducted immediately after the Pentecost DL. It is not part of the DL, so the "no kneeling on Sundays during the Liturgy" rule is maintained.

I suspect Abp Michael was influenced by the widespread and entrenched western influence on popular piety over several centuries in Greece, particularly evident in the mainland areas and the islands like Zakynthos and Rhodes which had come under Venetian rule during the Ottoman period.

[pensateomnia]

I suspect Abp Michael was influenced by the widespread and entrenched western influence on popular piety over several centuries in Greece, particularly evident in the mainland areas and the islands like Zakynthos and Rhodes which had come under Venetian rule during the Ottoman period.

Archbishop Michael was a very well trained and respected theologian, extremely good friends with Fr Florovsky, versed in the Fathers, with broad exposure to Orthodoxy throughout Greece, Turkey, and Russia, having lived and studied in all three lands. So one need not imagine some supposed Western boogeyman. In fact, Archbishop Michael played no small role in Orthodox theology's return to the Fathers in the 20th century.

While I wouldn't have made the same ruling as he, this particular pastoral decision did a lot of good at the time and contains a meaningful theological rationale, as all liturgical changes always have throughout history.

Some people fixate on two canons about standing, and yet the very same Ecumenical Councils, Nicaea and Trullo, offer several other very clear liturgical instructions that are either universally violated or often so. Why no uproar about the "mind of the Fathers" being violated on these other matters? Perhaps because it seems easy to beat up people on the question of standing, whereas addressing the full scope of these Ecumenical Councils' canons might show that such liturgical canons and practices do, in fact, change. Rubrics are ephemeral, not a medium to grant us access to the mind of the Fathers.

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

"Rubrics are ephemeral, not a medium to grant us access to the mind of the Fathers." Pensateomnia

Thank you!

I am of the same mind with Podkarpatska; that diversity is a good thing. It is one thing to try to do the right thing, it is another to be so sure about "ephemeral" things that one loses objectivity and most importantly, tolerance and love of our brothers and sisters.

[Gorazd]

The matter of kneeling on Sunday WAS diverse and controversial, until Nicaea decided in one way for all. Why should we return to diversity then, if the objective clearly was unification? Let's stand up for our faith in the Resurrection of Christ!

PS: That doesn't mean we shouldn't follow other canons. I'd be glad about a thread on other liturgical canons. But in this case, it is more than a liturgical observance: It is about confessing the Resurrection.

[mabsoota]

i understand councils are important, but i agree with carl kraeff.
although i no longer kneel on sundays after hearing about the canons, i am fairly sure i would kneel / faint / die (so i would not remain standing) if i had a vision of the Lord on a sunday.
this is not likely (need to work a little on my character first!) so i can safely say i won't kneel, but i don't mind anyone who does.

but we shouldn't kneel after taking Holy Communion.
(unless having vision of God)
 

[soderquj]

This is another quote from Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver, on Oct 1998.

"Whether we stand or kneel at the Epiklesis on Sundays, we should do so with sincerity of heart and humility. It should never be as an outward show of piety (kneeling) or of our Orthodoxy (standing). This is audacity.

In comparing the act of kneeling with the consumption of food during periods of fasting and abstinence because both have to do with self-discipline, Saint Paul tells us, "But food does not commend us to God, for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. (1 Corinthians 8: Elsewhere Saint Paul is even more emphatic. He says, "Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. (Romans 14:1-3)

Parallel to the discipline regarding food consumption, we can correctly say that the kneeling or the not kneeling by the faithful in the Sunday Divine Liturgy must never become contentious among the faithful. If one kneels at the Epiklesis it must not be out of repentance, but out of awesome joyfulness and fervent love that the Holy Spirit comes upon us. If another stands during the same time, he should not do so like an Orthodox spectator in judgment of the kneeling sinners, but must always stand with bowed neck and head and eyes closed or lowered, rejoicing in God's love through the descent of the Holy Spirit Who comes to sanctify all who are in a prayerful stance in the house of God and especially to change the bread and the wine into the sanctifying Body and Blood of the Lord.

Orthodoxy is not legalistic; it is pastoral."

By the way I stand and my wife kneels.

[Gorazd]

Sincerity and humility is not all. I recently visited Poland and Lviv. There, I met a lot of people who prayed the filioque with sincerity and humility.

Doing the right thing also counts.

[Dominika]

In my parish sometimes on Sundays when the Anaphora begins and our parson goes out the altar to say "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with all of you" he ask people to kneel as it is the most important moment of the Liturgy. Only in the Paschal and Nativity/Epiphany period he doesn't do it. During fasts, especially Great Lent, kneeling even on Sundays seems to me not so wrong. On feasts from the 12 group I never kneel, on Sundays many times I do. The reason is not only the parson and the fact that in this position I can better focus on the prayer, but also there is the issue that I have to change position to withstand the Liturgy without going out the church - on Sundays usually in my church it's too close.
I know that in Poland it's latin influence, but it's difficult to throw it away from the consciousness of the old clergy and faithfuls in short time.

[soderquj]

Sincerity and humility is not all. I recently visited Poland and Lviv. There, I met a lot of people who prayed the filioque with sincerity and humility.

Doing the right thing also counts.

 Not quite the same, the filioque is a heresy.

[Gorazd]

Not quite the same, the filioque is a heresy.

I agree that it is a heresy. But none of the Ecumenical Councils explicitely state that. The ban on kneeling, on the other hand, is explicitely mentioned in the Council of Nicea and in Trullo. And it is being linked to the faith of the resurrection.

[mabsoota]

ok, could not resist it - now see the hyperdox herman thread...

edited to add the link:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43223.new.html#new

[Subdeacon Michael]

Interesting that Roman Catholics have made this a signal that the person approaching the chalice is not going to receive, but just wants a blessing.

Well, they have and they haven't.

This is a thing that has developed in Roman Catholic culture in some parts of the world but it is in direct opposition to actual Roman Catholic understanding and official Roman Catholic guidance.  It is what, I believe, is referred to in RC circles as a "liturgical abuse".  The whole idea of "going up for a blessing" instead of receive the sacraments is alien to Roman Catholic thought and guidance has been issued to discourage the practice, (it also makes no sense from an Orthodox perspective and the practice would seem to encourage an unhealthy view of the sacraments).  There is a blessing at the end of the mass for everybody and anybody can ask a priest for a blessing at any time outside of services, but the time for communion is the time for communion and should be treated as such.

[Subdeacon Michael]

When I've been to Russian parishes, I've been instructed to kiss the "cup" portion of the chalice. I don't remember ever seeing people kiss the "foot". I guess it's awkward to bend down under the communion cloth? Not sure.

In the Russian tradition, only the higher clergy kiss the bowl of the chalice.  The minor clergy (subdeacons and readers) and laity kiss the base of the chalice.  There is no difficulty: the deacon/subdeacons lower the houseling cloth for each communicant to be able to kiss the chalice.

[Subdeacon Michael]

In my parish sometimes on Sundays when the Anaphora begins and our parson goes out the altar to say "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with all of you" he ask people to kneel as it is the most important moment of the Liturgy.

Does nobody think it strange that he does this a matter of seconds after the deacon has said, 'Let us stand well; let us stand in awe...'?

[mike]

Does nobody think it strange that he does this a matter of seconds after the deacon has said, 'Let us stand well; let us stand in awe...'?

No. The DL is in Church Slavonic.

[Dominika]

In my parish sometimes on Sundays when the Anaphora begins and our parson goes out the altar to say "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with all of you" he ask people to kneel as it is the most important moment of the Liturgy.

Does nobody think it strange that he does this a matter of seconds after the deacon has said, 'Let us stand well; let us stand in awe...'?

Polish Orthodox always say instead "kneeling", "staying on kneels" (for non-Orthodox Polish it sounds strange and not so correctly), so it can be treated as the fulfillment of the deacon's words.

[Gorazd]

Does nobody think it strange that he does this a matter of seconds after the deacon has said, 'Let us stand well; let us stand in awe...'?

No. The DL is in Church Slavonic.

What about Polish-language liturgies?

[mike]

Nowhere I've been to there were people going outside the altar and telling the people what to do.

[Gorazd]

Nowhere I've been to there were people going outside the altar and telling the people what to do.

Ok, but if "let us stand" is said in Polish, do people kneel a few seconds later?

Polish Orthodox always say instead "kneeling", "staying on kneels" (for non-Orthodox Polish it sounds strange and not so correctly), so it can be treated as the fulfillment of the deacon's words.

I do not feel comfortable with such word-twisting. Let us stay on our feet.

[mike]

Nowhere I've been to there were people going outside the altar and telling the people what to do.

Ok, but if "let us stand" is said in Polish, do people kneel a few seconds later?

In the 3 (out of 4) Churches with Polish DL I've attended no one kneels.

[Gorazd]

Nowhere I've been to there were people going outside the altar and telling the people what to do.

Ok, but if "let us stand" is said in Polish, do people kneel a few seconds later?

In the 3 (out of 4) Churches with Polish DL I've attended no one kneels.

Tht's a strong argument for DL (or at least saying "Let us stand") in Polish. Actually, I strongly favour using languages fluently understood by the congregation. Of course, one could also use Podlachian in Eastern Poland etc.

[mike]

Of course, one could also use Podlachian in Eastern Poland etc.

The problem with Podlachian is that it's not standardised yet. Every several villages speak differently.

[Gorazd]

The problem with Podlachian is that it's not standardised yet. Every several villages speak differently.

That's not really a problem. A sermon does not need to be standardised, but understood. If the Priest can speak in a way that is fluently understable to the congregation he is preaching to, then the dialect can be used.

In Switzerland, for example, all kinds of religious communities use dialect for sermons. Standard German would be used only if the preacher is a foreigner.